Here are several of many web links that say PEX and other plastic pipes
are not healthy, impart a foul taste to water, and has other issues. At
the same time, it appears that the actual risks are not exactly known.
Either way, it appears that copper pipe is a much better choice, as far
as health, and water taste.


http://www.alternet.org/environment/...-plastic-pipes

https://www.angieslist.com/articles/...er-quality.htm

And From: (read below)
http://healthybuildingscience.com/20...stic-vs-copper


Piping for New Construction: Plastic vs. Copper
What Do We Know – What Should We Do?

Water, it has been revered since the beginning of time. It sustains and
nourishes us; we couldn’t live more than three days without it.
Fortunately in the Western World it is readily available. It is so
seamlessly intertwined with our daily lives that we rarely think about
the system that delivers it to us. However, the more we know about our
water system the more empowered we are to make sure we are getting the
highest quality water possible. Which type of piping is better: plastic
vs. copper .

This blog post will focus on information researchers have discovered
that highlight the safety issues surrounding different types of potable
water piping material, namely HDPE, PEX, PVC, and Copper Piping.
Weighing the risks, it will pose the question of which piping material
should be used for new construction and renovation projects. If you have
any thoughts or considerations on the matter please suggest. Though the
findings are compelling and an important part of the puzzle, they are in
no way comprehensive. More studies and respective innovation are needed
to fix the problems and create a better system.


plastic vs. copper

PVC Plastic Water Faucet
Plastic Piping

Okay, let’s address plastic piping first, specifically HDPE, PEX, & PVC.

Plastic piping was introduced to the United States in the mid 1980’s and
has become increasingly popular – not surprising. Plastic piping is easy
to install. Its route through the building can be more versatile and
potentially contribute to making the building more holistically
designed—(suggestions and case studies that have done this are
welcomed). Plastic piping is also less expensive which obviously helps
with budgeting and money allocation. It can also be used for 50 years or
more.

However studies are showing that chemical compounds found in plastic
piping are leaching into our drinking water. Though testing is still in
its nascent stages, studies have concluded that High Density
Polyethylene (HDPE), Cross Linked Polyethylene (PEX), and Polyvinyl
Chloride (PVC) pipes, release both regulated and unregulated VOCs
(volatile organic compounds), unidentified contaminants, and assimilable
organic carbon (AOC) that can possibly lead to microbial growth.

A 2015 study conducted by Andrew Whelton and his associates at the
University of South Alabama & Purdue University, is a particularly good
source of information. The study tests for VOCs, AOCs as well as other
compounds in PEX, HDPE, PVC and PP pipes. The VOC testing is generally
aimed at PEX piping. Additionally, the paper expands its breadth beyond
its results by referencing the findings of other studies that discovered
similar contaminants.

Here is the link to read the study in AWWA (American Water Works
Association) Journal: PEX and PP Water Pipes: Assimilable Carbon,
Chemicals, and Odors

To briefly surmise: Whelton and his team’s results showed the presence
of VOCs including ETBE, cyclohexane, toluene, and xylene in the water of
eight PEX pipes over a 30-day cycle. According to the paper, “ETBE,
toluene, p-xylene, and unspecified xylene isomers have been previously
found in PEX contact waters.” These studies include: “Skjevrak et al.,
2003; Koch, 2004; Durand and Dietrich 2007”. Whelton’s results indicated
that VOCs were higher in the beginning of the period, and in some cases,
were not present at the end. Only ETBE and cyclohexane remained
detectable on day 30 but these were below NSFI 61 standards.



The studies referenced above differed for PEX piping. For instance the
2014 study by Kelly et. al. showed the presence of both toluene and ETBE
(65 ug/L) on day 30. Durand and Dietrich’s 2007 work showed ETBE levels
ranging from 0.14 ug/L to more than 100 ug/L; and a particularly
alarming test at an Oklahoma home found ETBE levels at 22 ug/l and
toluene levels at 80 ug/l after a year – these levels are above OTC
thresholds. In addition to PEX, a study in Norway presented at the 20th
No Dig Conference at Copenhagen (2002) (link below) found that “five out
of seven tested brands of HDPE pipes showed unacceptable TON values of
test water.”

Here is the link to the No Dig Conference study entitled:

Potential water quality deterioration of drinking water caused by
leakage of organic compounds from materials in contact with the water.

What can be determined by these varying answers? In the case of
Whelton’s, is PEX piping really all that dangerous if only a few VOCs
are present after a 30- day cycle- and are below NSFI 61 standards ?
Though we should eventually find this answer out, the conclusion does
not account for the other instances VOCs were found. Is there a way to
shorten the leaching period, or better yet eliminate leaching all
together?
Let’s move on to AOCs.

Whelton’s study found that six of the eight PEX pipes had AOC levels
exceeding 100 ug/l on day 7 of the cycle- just to note 100 ug/L of AOC
is when coliform detection occurs. By day 28, however, none of the PEX
pipes exceeded the microbial regrowth threshold. Similarly AOC levels
for HDPE and PVC brands increased by 22% ug AOC/L and 58% ug AOC/L
respectively over the course of the 28-day cycle but did not exceed 100
ug/L on day 28. The study listed at the No Dig Conference (referenced
above) states that “ PVC and PEX have a higher biofilm growth on their
surfaces than the glass reference,” however in this study, the AOC
presence also diminished over time.

Similar to VOCs, AOC results vary within each study as well as when
compared to other studies. Do AOC levels pose a risk if they reach the
coliform threshold in the beginning of the cycle but not at the end?
Should we be weary of AOC presence altogether? Can the quantity in the
pipe grow after thirty days?

More research needs to be done to ascertain what’s going on. Compounds
that we don’t want in our pipes are being found. In addition to the
presence of VOCs and AOCs, Whelton’s study detected that “a significant
number of unknown compounds spanning from low to mid molecular weight
are present in PEX pipe contact water.” How do we evaluate these
mysterious chemicals? Similar to VOC and AOC findings, what are the
health implications?

We have to find this information out if we can truly vouch for plastic
pipes’ use. It’s difficult and disrupting to the industry, but if we can
avoid ingesting volatile organic compounds that are carcinogenic,
endocrine disrupting, and neurotoxic in our pipes, we should – even if
they are in small quantities. Similarly it’s obvious that we don’t want
bacteria forming in our pipes. Therefore, we need to fully understand
what causes AOCs to form and how to prevent them. As for the
contaminants that we do not know – well that just opens up a whole can
of worms to be figured out.


plastic vs. copper

Piping for New Construction: Plastic vs. Copper. Copper Plumbing
Copper Piping

The primary alternative to plastic piping is copper piping. Copper
piping has been around since Ancient Egypt; it is a natural resource,
existing in the earth’s crust, plants, animals, and humans. Copper is
antimicrobial and does not pose the same risks that plastic pipes do ie,
VOCs, unknown contaminants, & AOC growth. With that said, copper has its
own problems.

According to the EPA copper can “leach into water primarily from pipes,
but fixtures and faucets (brass), and fittings can also be a source.”
The EPA also explains that, “the amount of copper in the water depends
on the types and amounts of minerals in the water, how long the water
stays in the pipes, the water’s acidity, and its temperature.”[1] Over
consumption of copper can lead to nausea, gastrointestinal problems,
liver damage, and kidney disease, amongst others. [2]

The EPA has limited the amount of copper leaching into drinking water to
1.3ppm.[3] Water treatment plants have added corrosion inhibitors such
as fluoride to prevent copper pipe deterioration.[4] Additionally new
legislation has mandated potable water pipes to contain less than 0.25%
of lead, making copper piping safer than it was before.

Nevertheless, due to the fact that copper has more potential to leach
into the water when it is idle (more than six hours), one should run the
drinking water for 30-60 seconds before consuming.[5] Additionally,
according to the Minnesota Department of Health, hot water dissolves
water more than cold water. Thus if you need hot water for cooking, you
should heat cold water over the stove rather than getting it directly
from the faucet.

According to the Action Water District “after the initial leaching” of
copper pipes, “the inner surface of the pipes forms a hard surface that
should reduce further leaching.”[6] However, as of now, there has not
been a fool-proof way to prevent copper from entering the pipes from
within a home.[7] As a result there are different treatment options
available such as reverse osmosis, ultra-filtration distillation, and
ion exchange that one should consider.[8] The CDC recommends getting
your pipes tested by a licensed professional to ensure that copper
levels do not exceed safety levels.
Conclusion

Unfortunately we do not currently have pipes that are 100% safe. As a
result we must choose the best options available. After reviewing the
research for plastic vs. copper, copper piping appears to be the system
that is the easiest to control. Water filtration methods as well as new
lead standards help ameliorate heavy metal toxicity risk. We do not have
enough information on the dangers of plastic piping. Studies have shown
alarming evidence of VOC presence, unknown contaminants in drinking
water, and Assimilable Organic Compounds that can lead to deleterious
bacteria. There are too many question marks to adequately enact safety
precautions and therefore plastic piping cannot be fully trusted.

Sources on how to make plastic and copper piping safer are welcomed. The
more we work towards a solution instead of defending the status quo, the
closer we will be to getting the quality water we want and rely on.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 15:50:03 -0500, wrote:

Here are several of many web links that say PEX and other plastic pipes
are not healthy, impart a foul taste to water, and has other issues. At
the same time, it appears that the actual risks are not exactly known.
Either way, it appears that copper pipe is a much better choice, as far
as health, and water taste.
Fine until your water pinholes the copper pipe.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 21:39:12 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 15:50:03 -0500, wrote:

Here are several of many web links that say PEX and other plastic pipes
are not healthy, impart a foul taste to water, and has other issues. At
the same time, it appears that the actual risks are not exactly known.
Either way, it appears that copper pipe is a much better choice, as far
as health, and water taste.
Fine until your water pinholes the copper pipe.

Having worked as a plumber for years, I installed more copper than
you've probably even seen. I never had any leaks. There was one rural
home that I worked on, which had copper leaching. I first noticed that
when I saw green staining in all the sinks. Cutting apart the pipes
showed how little of the pipes were left (after about 12 years). A
water test revealed a very high acidic water, and a lot of other problms
with the well, such as bacteria and nitrates. I told the homeowner about
the contaminated well, and that his pipes were being "eaten" by his
acidic water, and recommended a new well, and completely new pipes
afterwards. Then I just patched up what was leaking, and it was up to
him to do what was needed.

Copper dont develop pinholes unless the water is extremely acidic, there
was a flaw in the pipe, the pipes freeze, or a nearby lightning strike
surges thru a copper water pipe system. Yea, I did run across a place
where lightning wiped out a guys electrical system, and blew a pin hole
right thru a copper elbow, where it was within an inch from an
electrical conduit. The lightning needed to go to ground, and it did.
That couduit had a burn mark on it too.

On 11/2/2016 7:45 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 21:39:12 -0400, wrote:

Fine until your water pinholes the copper pipe.

Having worked as a plumber for years, I installed more copper than
you've probably even seen. I never had any leaks.

The house I lived in for 30 years had copper pipes and never a problem.
(And it was 10 years old when I bought it.) My current house has plastic
pipes and I've also had no pipe problems in 16 years. However I did have
one elbow's solvent cement give out to produce a pinhole sized stream.
But that was likely a one time installation problem since no other
joints have since given out (knocks on wood).

On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 21:45:35 -0500, wrote:


I told the homeowner about
the contaminated well, and that his pipes were being "eaten" by his
acidic water, and recommended a new well,

A new well? What in another county? That is going to be a long pipe.
If the well water sucks, another well will probably get the same
water.

Across the river from me in Cape Coral, there was a huge problem with
pin holed copper pipe about 25 years ago and the pH was over 7
according to the city water department.
I am not sure they ever got a resolution.
The pipe company pointed at the electric company, the electric company
said it was bad water and the city water people said it was defective
pipe.
They replaced the copper with plastic and the problem went away.

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 01:56:06 -0400, wrote:

A new well? What in another county? That is going to be a long pipe.
If the well water sucks, another well will probably get the same
water.


The well on that property was something like 35 ft deep. The land within
1/4 mile away was a swamp. Speaking with the guys who did the water
tests, there was a large rock formation about 15 feet below the surface,
and the small basement in that house needed TWO sump pumps, bcause the
water table was so high that after every rain, those pumps ran
continuously. It's pretty obvious where that water was coming from
(surface water from the swamp). The wells of neighbors were all around
300 feet deep, far below that rock formation.

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 1:56:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 21:45:35 -0500, wrote:


I told the homeowner about
the contaminated well, and that his pipes were being "eaten" by his
acidic water, and recommended a new well,

A new well? What in another county? That is going to be a long pipe.
If the well water sucks, another well will probably get the same
water.



Not necessarily. You could drill a new well to a different depth
into a different aquifer and get totally different water. For
example, around here a lot of people have problems with iron in
irrigation wells. It stains sidewalks, siding, orange brown. A
friend was having a new irrigation well for a new house put in
and I helped him do some research. Most well drillers want to go
to ~100 ft, because that's where the aquifer with plenty of water is.
Problem is, that's where the rust is too. We found a driller that
said in the specific area they can go to just 50 ft, get enough
water and it's usually iron free. So, that's what he did and it
worked. He has no rust, his neighbor's places are a mess.

Beyond that, there is another major aquifer at 180 ft, that also
has no iron. That's where the well at my parent's house tapped into.
It was artesian too. So, I think in many cases you could drill a
new well to a different depth and solve your problems.

wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 15:50:03 -0500, wrote:

Here are several of many web links that say PEX and other plastic pipes
are not healthy, impart a foul taste to water, and has other issues. At
the same time, it appears that the actual risks are not exactly known.
Either way, it appears that copper pipe is a much better choice, as far
as health, and water taste.
Fine until your water pinholes the copper pipe.

I got copper probably over 50 years old. Just added a T. I looked at that
at Home Depot. I don't think they were that thin years ago.

Greg

On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 08:35:50 -0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

I got copper probably over 50 years old. Just added a T. I looked at that
at Home Depot. I don't think they were that thin years ago.

.... Copper Tubing Dimensional Reference

K, thick walled, underground residential, commercial and industrial
uses.
**L, medium walled, residential and commercial uses
***M, thin walled, above ground residential and light commercial uses.
****DWV, Drain/Waste/Vent, non-pressurized

http://www.petersenproducts.com/Specifications/Pipe_Copper.aspx

PEX has been around ~ 60 years.