I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want to install
prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just prewiring the system for
now, and purchase the system/subscription later. The drywall is not up, so
this should be reasonably easy to do.

System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular system/vendor yet, and I
want flexibility of choosing from different provider later. I assume that all
the wires are compatible amongst the many different systems (ie, the three
wires for power, ground, and signal, same gauge requirements, etc)? If not,
what should I look for?

What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good installer? What
questions do I ask? How many sensors should I install (I am thinking all the
doors, all the windows, fire, water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing), what
else am I missing?)?

Thanks.

John Smith wrote:

I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want
to install prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just
prewiring the system for now, and purchase the
system/subscription later. The drywall is not up, so this
should be reasonably easy to do.

System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular
system/vendor yet, and I want flexibility of choosing from
different provider later.

Sorry, I don't get the logic. You're trying to prepare for
a universal compatibility that you don't even know exists,
and for no other reason than not wanting to commit to a
service provider???

I assume

Well, you know what happens when you do that...

What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good
installer? What questions do I ask? How many sensors should I
install (I am thinking all the doors, all the windows, fire,
water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing), what else am I
missing?)?

So many questions, and the only answer is with another one:

WHY?

Pick a damned security company and let them wire the place.

Do you REALLY think somebody will come in and guarantee the
workmanship of their installation using your existing wiring?

If you were planning on doing this yourself, I could maybe
see some logic here, but you're talking about getting some
contractor who DOESN'T do this everyday (the installers from
the security company DO) and paying them to do it, and you
have no clue as to what they should charge you?

Yikes.

--
TP / Network Man __________________________________
If u want the races for free,
somebody has to pay for it. ($1 Earl)

Sigh.

Read the thread about messed up programming. You're sure to create
unrest with such questions...

Apparent rules here.
1. You're an idiot if you don't install systems for a living.
2. Don't ask what something means. You don't need to know.
3. If something goes wrong it's your fault. Call the installer to fix it.
4. Anything else, refer to #1.

Other than that, do some research, do the work yourself, and have it
done right the first time.

John Smith wrote:
I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want to install
prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just prewiring the system for
now, and purchase the system/subscription later. The drywall is not up, so
this should be reasonably easy to do.

System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular system/vendor yet, and I
want flexibility of choosing from different provider later. I assume that all
the wires are compatible amongst the many different systems (ie, the three
wires for power, ground, and signal, same gauge requirements, etc)? If not,
what should I look for?

What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good installer? What
questions do I ask? How many sensors should I install (I am thinking all the
doors, all the windows, fire, water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing), what
else am I missing?)?

Thanks.

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote:

Do you REALLY think somebody will come in and guarantee the
workmanship of their installation using your existing wiring?

Had a similar situation where the builder did the prewire and we added an alarm
system about a year later. Found out too late that the wire to one window was
shorted ouit (nail, who knows?) and so one window will never trip.

By the way - there are good alarm systems that can be installed that do NOT
require any kind of subscription or contract. Find a company that is willing to
install one of those and do not get coerced into signing a multi-year contract.

You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

John, there are companies around that specialize in pre wiring homes. They
usually sell their services to building contractors, so you might want to
talk to one of your local builders to see who they use. Around here, they
charge the builders from $250 to $500 to do a complete pre wire including,
all doors, all ground floor and basement windows, a couple of motions, a
couple of keypad locations, and a smoke on the upper floor.

Time to do it is when the doors and windows are installed but there is no
drywall or insulation up. This usually gives you a window of about a week to
get it done. Have him run loops into the attic for future additions on the
second floor. I also have a bit more detail on my website if you care to go
there..

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com


"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:

I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want
to install prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just
prewiring the system for now, and purchase the
system/subscription later. The drywall is not up, so this
should be reasonably easy to do.

System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular
system/vendor yet, and I want flexibility of choosing from
different provider later.

Sorry, I don't get the logic. You're trying to prepare for
a universal compatibility that you don't even know exists,
and for no other reason than not wanting to commit to a
service provider???

I assume

Well, you know what happens when you do that...

What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good
installer? What questions do I ask? How many sensors should I
install (I am thinking all the doors, all the windows, fire,
water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing), what else am I
missing?)?

So many questions, and the only answer is with another one:

WHY?

Pick a damned security company and let them wire the place.

Do you REALLY think somebody will come in and guarantee the
workmanship of their installation using your existing wiring?

If you were planning on doing this yourself, I could maybe
see some logic here, but you're talking about getting some
contractor who DOESN'T do this everyday (the installers from
the security company DO) and paying them to do it, and you
have no clue as to what they should charge you?

Yikes.

--
TP / Network Man __________________________________
If u want the races for free,
somebody has to pay for it. ($1 Earl)

Sir, just another comment. I regularly install professional alarms in homes
that are pre wired. In most cases, everything works out well and I am able
to offer the homeowner a discount on his alarm system, since most of my work
is done. However, it is fairly common that drywallers or other trades will
damage a wire (and it's usually one that goes to a window that is difficult
to retrofit).
About the only thing you can do is check all wires in the quad to see if you
have one usable pair, or go wireless on that one window.

As for your comments about finding a progressive company that doesn't lock
you into a multi year contract, I couldn't agree more. There is absolutely
NOTHING in a long term contract that benefits the consumer other than the
obvious benefit of being able to defer payment of your alarm system over
many months. But if you pay for it at a fair market price up front, then you
should be able to get your ongoing services for a more reasonable price
without a long term commitment on your part.

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com

"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." 73115 dot 1041 at compuserve dot com wrote in
message ...
"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote:

Do you REALLY think somebody will come in and guarantee the
workmanship of their installation using your existing wiring?

Had a similar situation where the builder did the prewire and we added an
alarm
system about a year later. Found out too late that the wire to one window
was
shorted ouit (nail, who knows?) and so one window will never trip.

By the way - there are good alarm systems that can be installed that do
NOT
require any kind of subscription or contract. Find a company that is
willing to
install one of those and do not get coerced into signing a multi-year
contract.

"Kukutyin" wrote in message
news
You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

Do a cost analysis. Cost of Dog, plus training, plus food, plus vet bills,
plus increased insurance due to having a 'scary' dog- may be cheaper to get
robbed once in a while. (Not to mention the hours ****ed away walking and
cleaning up after the thing.)

aem sends....

There (of course) are a couple of different types of systems on the market. You
should know which type you want to go with prior to pre-wiring your new house.
One type are two-wire (addressable) systems which only use 2 wires for power,
signal, etc. and are read by their addresses on the circuit. These systems
install in that somewhat of a daisy chain so you can run a wire to one device,
from there to another, etc etc. Also there are standard devices which are
addressed by which terminal they are installed to in the panel. Personally, I
prefer this type of system as if one device fails, atleast the rest of your
property will be covered. So depending on the type of system that interests you
most, I would go with 22/2 wire for the addressable and 22/4 or 22/6 wire for
the standard or more common system type. Then again, there is always wireless
(no one tell paul I said that). As far as what and where you will need as far as
devices, I would have to see the place to make this decision. To start, I would
place door contacts on all entryways and a smoke/carbon monoxide detector in the
utility and garage areas. Instead of wiring all of your windows with contacts,
place a motion detector in each room where a lot of windows will be installed
aimed towards the windows. Roughly, I think a 500ft box of 22ga. wire runs about
$2-300 depending on where you get it.
AA

"John Smith" wrote in message
om...
| I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want to install
| prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just prewiring the system for
| now, and purchase the system/subscription later. The drywall is not up, so
| this should be reasonably easy to do.
|
| System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular system/vendor yet, and I
| want flexibility of choosing from different provider later. I assume that all
| the wires are compatible amongst the many different systems (ie, the three
| wires for power, ground, and signal, same gauge requirements, etc)? If not,
| what should I look for?
|
| What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good installer? What
| questions do I ask? How many sensors should I install (I am thinking all the
| doors, all the windows, fire, water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing), what
| else am I missing?)?
|
| Thanks.

His knowledge better for dog


"ameijers" wrote in message
...

I am building a new house, and as an almost
afterthought, I want to install prewiring for
an alarm system. I am thinking of just
prewiring the system for now, and purchase
the system/subscription later. The drywall is
not up, so this should be reasonably easy to
do.

Hi John,

It's simple enough to prewire for an effective alarm system during
construction. You're right to plan for flexibility as well. As you
surmised, the cabling for keypads, power, phone connection and ground is
similar with most systems. A few systems are starting to use CAT5 for the
keypads but with most you can use 22/4 (22-gauge, 4-conductor) cable for
just about everything. Although the magnetic door and window sensors (in
the trade these are called "contacts") only need two wires there's very
little difference in cost between 2 and 4 conductor cable so many techs just
use the four.

Plan on installing the contacts with the wires if at all possible. Contacts
are cheap -- the best ones cost only $3 or $4 apiece -- and it's a bit
easier to insert them during construction than afterward. Bug each external
door and each operable window. I have an extensive FAQ website where you
can learn a bit about what to choose and how to install it in case you
decide to DIY. Even if you hire an alarm contractor it's good to educate
yourself so you will know what to expect and even what to insist on.

Plan for motion detectors in a few strategic locations. It's good to have
motion detection in front of (but not actually facing) the stairs leading to
the sleeping area. If the home is a single story, put a motion detector in
the bedroom hallway. Place a motion detector in the family room or wherever
the audio / video gear will be since that is a target location for thieves.
If you will have an office, consider placing a detector there, too. Some
folks like to install a motion sensor in the master bedroom since that is
also a target for thieves.

If there will be large glass doors in any first floor or basement level room
consider installing a glass breakage detector in that area as well. These
devices can detect breaking glass 20 to 25 feet away so they protect an
entire room. I should mention that glass break detection is considered
supplemental protection by many installers. It doesn't replace magnetic
contacts. It's a backup.

If you are going to have the house monitored in the future, consider
installing a few system smoke detectors to augment the 110-Volt ones the
builder will install. While almost any smoke detector will wake you up and
save your life, a monitored detector may get the fire department there in
time to save your house should something happen while you are out.

If the home will have gas heat or appliances you may want to prewire for
carbon monoxide detectors as well. These are typically installed at
"breathing level" (about 5 feet from the floor) near the bedrooms and in the
vicinity of possible CO-producing appliances.

Prewire for a keypad at the door leading to the garage / driveway. Place
another keypad in the master bedroom. If there will be a formal entrance
many people like to put a keypad there as well. However, I usually
recommend against that one since it may rarely be used. It all depends on
the layout -- how your family will usually come and go. I usually specify
18/4 fire alarm cable for smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors.

Don't forget the siren speakers. Plan on one in the basement, one near the
bedrooms and one either in the attic or under the eaves as high off the
ground as can be. The speakers should be wired with 18-gauge cable. If you
have some extra fire alarm cable you can use it for those as well.

Run 22/4 or CAT5 (it makes no difference which) for the telephone
connection. This needs to be a dedicated, 4-wire cable from where the
phones enter the house to the alarm control panel. Speaking of where the
phone line enters, try to have the telco or the electrician move the
telephone company "demarc" (gray box on the outside wall) to the inside of
the house and conceal the cable. If you will have a basement the best way
is to run the cable through the foundation wall below grade. That way no
one can cut the phone line -- a growing problem in some areas.

Be sure to run a ground wire for the control panel. This can be a single
solid or stranded, 12 to 14-gauge wire. It should run to the home's main
electrical ground. That's usually either a long, copper clad stake near the
electric meter. Use your own clamp; don't share another service's ground or
some TI may remove your ground later. You can also use a cold water pipe
*if* everything else is grounded to the cold water pipe and *if* there is no
insulating connector between the panel and the water meter.

Look for a few local alarm firms in the local directory and explain what you
want to do. Many alarm companies don't want to do anything without signing
a multi-year monitoring contract up front but you may luck out and find a
good one. If not, consider doing it yourself. It's not difficult and only
a few simple tools are required. My business caters to DIYers so if you
decide to go that route I can help with parts and tech support.

Best of luck.

Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================

And this, gang, is why Robert is a success in running his on-line store.

He took the time to give the man as much information, if not more, than he
needed. If he can then turn around and sell the man his parts and his
monitoring, it will be a win win situation! Why not? He has to buy the
parts somewhere and he can't buy from our wholesale houses in Texas without
a valid company license. With Bass, he will get support helping him use
what he buys.

I know that some will take exception to what I have said and will try and
convince John why they shouldn't buy from Bass, but where are you in filling
in the gap?
--
Allan Waghalter
Security Sure Alarm Company
Houston, TX 77071


None of the rest of us, me included, took the time to explain the needs as
well as Bass.
"Robert L. Bass" wrote in message
...
I am building a new house, and as an almost
afterthought, I want to install prewiring for
an alarm system. I am thinking of just
prewiring the system for now, and purchase
the system/subscription later. The drywall is
not up, so this should be reasonably easy to
do.

Hi John,

It's simple enough to prewire for an effective alarm system during
construction. You're right to plan for flexibility as well. As you
surmised, the cabling for keypads, power, phone connection and ground is
similar with most systems. A few systems are starting to use CAT5 for the
keypads but with most you can use 22/4 (22-gauge, 4-conductor) cable for
just about everything. Although the magnetic door and window sensors (in
the trade these are called "contacts") only need two wires there's very
little difference in cost between 2 and 4 conductor cable so many techs
just
use the four.

Plan on installing the contacts with the wires if at all possible.
Contacts
are cheap -- the best ones cost only $3 or $4 apiece -- and it's a bit
easier to insert them during construction than afterward. Bug each
external
door and each operable window. I have an extensive FAQ website where you
can learn a bit about what to choose and how to install it in case you
decide to DIY. Even if you hire an alarm contractor it's good to educate
yourself so you will know what to expect and even what to insist on.

Plan for motion detectors in a few strategic locations. It's good to have
motion detection in front of (but not actually facing) the stairs leading
to
the sleeping area. If the home is a single story, put a motion detector
in
the bedroom hallway. Place a motion detector in the family room or
wherever
the audio / video gear will be since that is a target location for
thieves.
If you will have an office, consider placing a detector there, too. Some
folks like to install a motion sensor in the master bedroom since that is
also a target for thieves.

If there will be large glass doors in any first floor or basement level
room
consider installing a glass breakage detector in that area as well. These
devices can detect breaking glass 20 to 25 feet away so they protect an
entire room. I should mention that glass break detection is considered
supplemental protection by many installers. It doesn't replace magnetic
contacts. It's a backup.

If you are going to have the house monitored in the future, consider
installing a few system smoke detectors to augment the 110-Volt ones the
builder will install. While almost any smoke detector will wake you up
and
save your life, a monitored detector may get the fire department there in
time to save your house should something happen while you are out.

If the home will have gas heat or appliances you may want to prewire for
carbon monoxide detectors as well. These are typically installed at
"breathing level" (about 5 feet from the floor) near the bedrooms and in
the
vicinity of possible CO-producing appliances.

Prewire for a keypad at the door leading to the garage / driveway. Place
another keypad in the master bedroom. If there will be a formal entrance
many people like to put a keypad there as well. However, I usually
recommend against that one since it may rarely be used. It all depends on
the layout -- how your family will usually come and go. I usually specify
18/4 fire alarm cable for smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors.

Don't forget the siren speakers. Plan on one in the basement, one near
the
bedrooms and one either in the attic or under the eaves as high off the
ground as can be. The speakers should be wired with 18-gauge cable. If
you
have some extra fire alarm cable you can use it for those as well.

Run 22/4 or CAT5 (it makes no difference which) for the telephone
connection. This needs to be a dedicated, 4-wire cable from where the
phones enter the house to the alarm control panel. Speaking of where the
phone line enters, try to have the telco or the electrician move the
telephone company "demarc" (gray box on the outside wall) to the inside of
the house and conceal the cable. If you will have a basement the best way
is to run the cable through the foundation wall below grade. That way no
one can cut the phone line -- a growing problem in some areas.

Be sure to run a ground wire for the control panel. This can be a single
solid or stranded, 12 to 14-gauge wire. It should run to the home's main
electrical ground. That's usually either a long, copper clad stake near
the
electric meter. Use your own clamp; don't share another service's ground
or
some TI may remove your ground later. You can also use a cold water pipe
*if* everything else is grounded to the cold water pipe and *if* there is
no
insulating connector between the panel and the water meter.

Look for a few local alarm firms in the local directory and explain what
you
want to do. Many alarm companies don't want to do anything without
signing
a multi-year monitoring contract up front but you may luck out and find a
good one. If not, consider doing it yourself. It's not difficult and
only
a few simple tools are required. My business caters to DIYers so if you
decide to go that route I can help with parts and tech support.

Best of luck.

Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================

Kukutyin wrote in message
news
You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

You are a fool if you think a dog is the answer to your security needs. Same
goes for a gun. I just love it when some idiot says "alarm? My .357 is the
only protection I need."
js

John Smith wrote:

I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want to install
prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just prewiring the system for
now, and purchase the system/subscription later. The drywall is not up, so
this should be reasonably easy to do.

System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular system/vendor yet, and I
want flexibility of choosing from different provider later. I assume that all
the wires are compatible amongst the many different systems (ie, the three
wires for power, ground, and signal, same gauge requirements, etc)? If not,
what should I look for?

What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good installer? What
questions do I ask? How many sensors should I install (I am thinking all the
doors, all the windows, fire, water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing), what
else am I missing?)?

Thanks.
while at it why not install for the cable TV, the high speed computer
stuff, etc... put the wires in now and later if you want something you
will have the wires installed and just the modules are needed.. the guy
down the block just built a new two story house and had a company come
out and install his wiring for him before they put up the sheetrock...
dont know what it cost, but he is in business now for the future....

I just love it when some idiot says "alarm? My .357 is the
only protection I need."

Half the time they wind up shooting themselves or their kid shoots a
playmate. The other half of the time the thief takes the gun away and
shoots them with it.

"RH.Campbell" wrote:

About the only thing you can do is check all wires in the quad to see if you
have one usable pair

Now, why didn't I think of that? Thank you...

Alarm companies will pre-wire almost for free, like $150 or $200. They
expect to make it up when they gouge you on the system. That's the industry
model. Call several.
-B

"John Smith" wrote in message
om...
I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought, I want to
install
prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just prewiring the system
for
now, and purchase the system/subscription later. The drywall is not up,
so
this should be reasonably easy to do.

System wise, I don't want to commit to a particular system/vendor yet, and
I
want flexibility of choosing from different provider later. I assume that
all
the wires are compatible amongst the many different systems (ie, the three
wires for power, ground, and signal, same gauge requirements, etc)? If
not,
what should I look for?

What can I expect to pay for this? How do I spot a good installer? What
questions do I ask? How many sensors should I install (I am thinking all
the
doors, all the windows, fire, water, smoke, low O2 (is there such thing),
what
else am I missing?)?

Thanks.

"Another Anonymous" wrote in message
. ..
There (of course) are a couple of different types of systems on the market.
You
should know which type you want to go with prior to pre-wiring your new house.
One type are two-wire (addressable) systems which only use 2 wires for power,
signal, etc. and are read by their addresses on the circuit. These systems
install in that somewhat of a daisy chain so you can run a wire to one device,
from there to another, etc etc. Also there are standard devices which are
addressed by which terminal they are installed to in the panel. Personally, I
prefer this type of system as if one device fails, atleast the rest of your
property will be covered. So depending on the type of system that interests
you
most, I would go with 22/2 wire for the addressable and 22/4 or 22/6 wire for
the standard or more common system type.

I'd suggest using quad (22/4) for addressable systems as well. Typically the
sensors are more expensive and require larger holes for concealed contacts in
doors and windows. If you're going to do the prewire then use a good quality
concealed contact with terminals like the GRI 20RS-T. Order them in "wide gap".
(http://www.grisk.com/recessed/20rs.htm). Tell us what kind of windows you've
got so we can make some suggestions on installing them (or an alternative). I'd
suggest two quads for every keypad drop. This allows you more flexibility in
the type of system you can install.

As for a suggested control... Unless you decide on one that's hybrid or has an
addressable loop (or zone expanders), I'd suggest home running all the wires to
a secure central location (like a wiring closet). You can also run all your
cable TV wires from here to the various rooms that need it... Run two runs of
RG-6 to the cable company's termination point at the outside of the house from
this closet. While you're at it, install your telco and network cables as
well...

Then again, there is always wireless
(no one tell paul I said that).

GASP!!!

As far as what and where you will need as far as
devices, I would have to see the place to make this decision. To start, I
would
place door contacts on all entryways and a smoke/carbon monoxide detector in
the
utility and garage areas. Instead of wiring all of your windows with contacts,
place a motion detector in each room where a lot of windows will be installed
aimed towards the windows.

I beg to differ... never aim a motion sensor at a window. Always corner mount
them on the same wall so that an intruder will walk through the protected
curtain rather than directly toward the sensor. Aiming a PIR at a window (no
matter how good it is) is askin' for trouble as well. The other thing about
using motion sensors instead of contacts and glass break detectors in the rooms
with accessible windows is that you'll have to bypass the motions if the
homeowner wants to walk around inside the home with the system armed. Perimeter
protection can't be beat. For rooms with a single opening window that may be
used as a point of entry, contact the window and ensure it's covered by either a
good quality glass break detector or an alarmed screen.

Have a look at the FAQS page at http://www.yoursecuritysource.com.


Roughly, I think a 500ft box of 22ga. wire runs about
$2-300 depending on where you get it.


Go to a cable wholesaler. You shouldn't be paying more than about $30 - $40 for
a 1000 ft box of quad... Quit buying from Bass... :-))


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified alarm professionals!

Kukutyin wrote in message
news
You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

True, and its a vastly better deterrent than any alarm system too.

Its got some downsides tho, mine was so keen to go for a run
in the car that I never had the heart to leave him behind when
it was at all possible to take him with me when out of the house.

Caused a rather hilarious result when I had him in the computer
room at work one weekend and one of users came into the room.

The dog had him bailed up against the wall in
a flash and the wimp nearly died of fright |-)

ameijers wrote in message
...
Kukutyin wrote

You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

Do a cost analysis.

Dont need to.

Cost of Dog,

Cheaper than the alarm system.

plus training,

Dont need any with that breed.

plus food, plus vet bills,

Cheap than a monitoring service.

plus increased insurance due to having a 'scary' dog-

No need.

may be cheaper to get robbed once in a while.

Nope.

(Not to mention the hours ****ed away walking

Which will certainly reduce your medical expenses.

and cleaning up after the thing.)

Dont need to do that either.

alarman wrote in
message news:NK_ic.20710$432.2648@fed1read01...
Kukutyin wrote

You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

You are a fool if you think a dog is the answer to your security needs.

Nope. NOTHING keeps burglar scum away like a decent sized dog.

Same goes for a gun.

Crap. Nothing like it. There is no way for the crim to know that
you have a gun. Even the stupidest crim cant miss a dog like that.

I just love it when some idiot says "alarm?
My .357 is the only protection I need."

And you're too stupid to be able to grasp the difference.

George Wenzel wrote in
message ...
wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.

but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.

All other things being equal, it's preferable to a thief to break
into a house without a dog compared to a house with a dog.

Which might just be why its an extremely
effective alternative to an alarm system.

Generally all you need to do is get the crim to decide that
one of the neighbour's houses is an easier/safer target.

There arent many crims stupid enough to try
stealing a car with an Alsatian inside either.

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:28:34 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


George Wenzel wrote in
message ...
wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.

A good alarm system coupled with an armed-response security patrol is
pretty good, though.

but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.

We don't have Alsatians in the US. We have to make do with German
Shepherds.

Mary Shafer (American shepherd)

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

George Wenzel wrote in
message ...
wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.

but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.

No they'll just taser the dog and he'll fear humans from then on, I've seen
that happen with a Malmut

Mary Shafer wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:28:34 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


George Wenzel wrote in
message ...

wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.


A good alarm system coupled with an armed-response security patrol is
pretty good, though.


but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.


We don't have Alsatians in the US. We have to make do with German
Shepherds.

Mary Shafer (American shepherd)

Hi,
Alarm company will do it for free gladly. Or go wireless.
That's what they did when I had my house built.
Tony

Mary Shafer wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote
George Wenzel wrote
wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.

A good alarm system coupled with an armed-response
security patrol is pretty good, though.

Sure, tho its distinctly arguable if its worth paying for
the armed-response security patrol if the dog is left
inside the house when the owners are not home.

but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.

We don't have Alsatians in the US.

Yes you do. Its just another way of naming them.

We have to make do with German Shepherds.

No you dont.

Mary Shafer (American shepherd)

"Mark Leuck" wrote in message news:W02jc.37208$w96.2680658@attbi_s54...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

George Wenzel wrote in
message ...
wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.

but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.

No they'll just taser the dog

Not if he's inside they house they cant.

and he'll fear humans from then on,

Wouldnt happen with mine. Mine did get run over by one of the
neighbour's cars, came around the side of the house looking
pretty hyped up. It was never very clear exactly what happened
to him, no one saw what happened. He was one for chasing cars.

Hilarious watching him whenever that particular car went
down the street after that, he was determined to kill it.

I've seen that happen with a Malmut

Doesnt work with a breed thats got real balls.

alarman wrote:
Kukutyin wrote in message
news
You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

You are a fool if you think a dog is the answer to your security
needs. Same goes for a gun. I just love it when some idiot says
"alarm? My .357 is the only protection I need."

A homeowner with a pistol (or the fear of a homeowner with a pistol) is the
only guaranteed burglary deterent. Guard dogs can be killed, alarms don't
bother the smash-and-grab crooks, burglar bars only slow the squints.

Don't believe me? Put the following sign on your front door:

There are no
GUNS
in this house!

And see how long you last.

Tony,
When you get a free pre-wire, you are not getting anything more than the
minimum. It takes us a minimum of 3 days and sometimes as long as 5 days to
properly pre-wire a new house. If someone is going to commit to that much
time, they can not do it for free. Many companies will wire the doors,
keypad, siren, phone and power, but that is just a small portion of what
should be protected and provided for in a pre-wire.
Allan Waghalter

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:lh2jc.262626$Ig.218199@pd7tw2no...
Mary Shafer wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:28:34 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


George Wenzel wrote in
message ...

wrote

You are a fool if you think a dog is
the answer to your security needs.

Dogs aren't the be-all and end-all of home security,

Neither are alarms.


A good alarm system coupled with an armed-response security patrol is
pretty good, though.


but homes with dogs (large or small) tend to get
burglarized much less often than homes without dogs.

And very few crims are stupid enough
to try it with a large dog like an Alsatian.


We don't have Alsatians in the US. We have to make do with German
Shepherds.

Mary Shafer (American shepherd)

Hi,
Alarm company will do it for free gladly. Or go wireless.
That's what they did when I had my house built.
Tony

040425 2146 - ameijers posted:


"Kukutyin" wrote in message
news
You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

Do a cost analysis. Cost of Dog, plus training, plus food, plus vet bills,
plus increased insurance due to having a 'scary' dog- may be cheaper to get
robbed once in a while. (Not to mention the hours ****ed away walking and
cleaning up after the thing.)

aem sends....


....or the possibility of the dog attacking a neighbor and getting sued out
of your socks...

Thanks for your help (and others, too). I visited your and other sites
mentioned in this thread, and I wish I could do a DIY. It looks like the
most fun anyone could have (I am an electrical engineer by education, and a
S/W engineer by trade). The problem is, I am about 250mi away from my new
house, and will be for the next few weeks , and I can't delay the finishing
of the house without getting into a domestic battle.

I am meeting with the builder on Tuesday, and I will ask for the schedule to
see if it is possible to fit myself into it .

To summarize what I gained through the net-wisdom:
1. Design a wiring closet in a secure location. Since I am already planning
to have a home network and file server, and I can use CAT5 cables for the
security system, then I only need to have additional CAT5s for the security
system. Does it matter if I use stranded or solid CAT5?

2. Call around for an installer who does this for a living (I-zheet M'drurz,
take notes ) and willing to do the pre-install only. Most likely I will go
with the original installer when the time comes anyway, as long the fees are not
outrageous (again, I-zheet M'drurz, take notes ).



"Robert L. Bass" wrote in message ...
I am building a new house, and as an almost
afterthought, I want to install prewiring for
an alarm system. I am thinking of just
prewiring the system for now, and purchase
the system/subscription later. The drywall is
not up, so this should be reasonably easy to
do.

Hi John,

It's simple enough to prewire for an effective alarm system during
construction. You're right to plan for flexibility as well. As you
surmised, the cabling for keypads, power, phone connection and ground is
similar with most systems. A few systems are starting to use CAT5 for the
keypads but with most you can use 22/4 (22-gauge, 4-conductor) cable for
just about everything. Although the magnetic door and window sensors (in
the trade these are called "contacts") only need two wires there's very
little difference in cost between 2 and 4 conductor cable so many techs just
use the four.

Plan on installing the contacts with the wires if at all possible. Contacts
are cheap -- the best ones cost only $3 or $4 apiece -- and it's a bit
easier to insert them during construction than afterward. Bug each external
door and each operable window. I have an extensive FAQ website where you
can learn a bit about what to choose and how to install it in case you
decide to DIY. Even if you hire an alarm contractor it's good to educate
yourself so you will know what to expect and even what to insist on.

Plan for motion detectors in a few strategic locations. It's good to have
motion detection in front of (but not actually facing) the stairs leading to
the sleeping area. If the home is a single story, put a motion detector in
the bedroom hallway. Place a motion detector in the family room or wherever
the audio / video gear will be since that is a target location for thieves.
If you will have an office, consider placing a detector there, too. Some
folks like to install a motion sensor in the master bedroom since that is
also a target for thieves.

If there will be large glass doors in any first floor or basement level room
consider installing a glass breakage detector in that area as well. These
devices can detect breaking glass 20 to 25 feet away so they protect an
entire room. I should mention that glass break detection is considered
supplemental protection by many installers. It doesn't replace magnetic
contacts. It's a backup.

If you are going to have the house monitored in the future, consider
installing a few system smoke detectors to augment the 110-Volt ones the
builder will install. While almost any smoke detector will wake you up and
save your life, a monitored detector may get the fire department there in
time to save your house should something happen while you are out.

If the home will have gas heat or appliances you may want to prewire for
carbon monoxide detectors as well. These are typically installed at
"breathing level" (about 5 feet from the floor) near the bedrooms and in the
vicinity of possible CO-producing appliances.

Prewire for a keypad at the door leading to the garage / driveway. Place
another keypad in the master bedroom. If there will be a formal entrance
many people like to put a keypad there as well. However, I usually
recommend against that one since it may rarely be used. It all depends on
the layout -- how your family will usually come and go. I usually specify
18/4 fire alarm cable for smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors.

Don't forget the siren speakers. Plan on one in the basement, one near the
bedrooms and one either in the attic or under the eaves as high off the
ground as can be. The speakers should be wired with 18-gauge cable. If you
have some extra fire alarm cable you can use it for those as well.

Run 22/4 or CAT5 (it makes no difference which) for the telephone
connection. This needs to be a dedicated, 4-wire cable from where the
phones enter the house to the alarm control panel. Speaking of where the
phone line enters, try to have the telco or the electrician move the
telephone company "demarc" (gray box on the outside wall) to the inside of
the house and conceal the cable. If you will have a basement the best way
is to run the cable through the foundation wall below grade. That way no
one can cut the phone line -- a growing problem in some areas.

Be sure to run a ground wire for the control panel. This can be a single
solid or stranded, 12 to 14-gauge wire. It should run to the home's main
electrical ground. That's usually either a long, copper clad stake near the
electric meter. Use your own clamp; don't share another service's ground or
some TI may remove your ground later. You can also use a cold water pipe
*if* everything else is grounded to the cold water pipe and *if* there is no
insulating connector between the panel and the water meter.

Look for a few local alarm firms in the local directory and explain what you
want to do. Many alarm companies don't want to do anything without signing
a multi-year monitoring contract up front but you may luck out and find a
good one. If not, consider doing it yourself. It's not difficult and only
a few simple tools are required. My business caters to DIYers so if you
decide to go that route I can help with parts and tech support.

Best of luck.

Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================

Cat 5 is quite a large wire. It would probably be better to use plain old 4
conductor solid phone wire for the doors and windows. This is because
sensors in homes are usually concealed. If you have a window which slides
up/down for example, the wire would come up from the bottom into the area
where the window slides down. Then be soldered to a thin contact and the
wire and contact lie flat at the bottom of the window. A magnet is glued to
the bottom of the sliding portion of the window. A large fat wire may not
allow the window to close.

Some visible door contacts (like those used on business doors) have small
screw terminals. It would be easier to wrap a small solid wire around these
screws than a stranded cat 5 wire. (Look at business alarm sensors)

Also note that alarm control units are usually placed in a closet or out of
view. They need electrical outlets nearby and use large plug-in
transformers for the control unit, motion detectors, and sometimes smoke
detectors. So you can have 3 large transformers to plug in plus may also
want an outlet to use in the room. I would install 3 separate single gang
outlets so you have plenty of room for any transformers.

You need an incoming and outgoing phone line direct to your phone drop [to
the main control]. This is so the alarm can disconnect the inside phones
and have exclusive use of the phone line. (and no one could pick up a phone
to keep the alarm from dialing out.) 8 conductor cat 5 would do fine for
this. (Need 2 wires incoming and 2 wires outgoing.) So phone goes to
outside drop, then to alarm control, then back to drop, then to rest of
house.

For fire smoke detectors(usually part of the alarm system), special fire
rated fire wire is used. New code may require smoke detectors inside and
outside bedrooms, and other places. (Check with your local fire department,
alarm company, and electrical inspector to see what your options are.)
Regular interconnected smoke detectors may be able to connect to your alarm
system? Depending on the type of smoke detector used, you may need 120 VAC
at each detector, or for other types 12 VDC power plus the fire wire for
sending the alarm to other detectors and/or your alarm system. Garages and
storage rooms usually get a "rate of rise" detector which needs no power,
but needs the fire wire. These are set off by a rapid heat increase or an
extreme temperature. They have a barometric chamber/sensor and a small
pressure relief opening. If the temperature slowly goes up, air bleeds out
and the sensor does not trip. If temperature goes up fast, air can't bleed
out fast enough, and the pressure increases inside the chamber which causes
the sensor to trip.

"Pressure mats" can be placed under carpeting. Usually at a key point like
hallway. May want to run wire to baseboard at this location.

Motion sensors need 4 wires (two for DC power). Better to use 6 or 8
conductor for long runs so wires can be doubled up for DC power (DC Voltage
drop). Motion sensors are usually mounted near the ceiling in a corner, and
usually in living room and/or hallway.

Inside detectors, mats, motion sensors, etc. have the option of being
turned off while inside the house. Newer alarms can be set to turn on
everything or bypass the interior stuff for when you are inside at night.
Or you may want a switch on a wall somewhere. If you want a by-pass switch,
run a 2 conductor minimum wire to that location. (It can be a toggle switch
or an electrical key switch.) If pets are left inside, you want to be able
to turn off the inside stuff. This wire could go to a multiple contact
relay which would still allow inside devices to be on separate "zones".

Also run a separate wire from each sensor, door, window, to the control
unit. Some controls can have many separate "zones" and will tell the
monitoring company which sensor tripped the alarm. This is good for trouble
shooting if having false alarm problems. (Some alarm companies run wires
from window to window. Then when the alarm goes off, you only know that a
window tripped the alarm, but not *which* window or which set of windows.)

Also check each and every wire before the drywall goes up. It is not
unusual for wires to get cut while other work is being done.

If you live in a lightning prone area, note that all that wiring can pick
up voltage via inductance. All going to that control unit. May want
shielded wiring or you can use relays (tough as nails) to isolate the house
sensor wiring from the sensitive electronics in the control unit. Older
local alarm control units were all relays and no transistors/IC's. Very few
problems with lightning on these older units.

A vibration like someone pounding hard on your door can make a door sensor
very briefly open the contact (fraction of a second). An electronic control
unit will sense this brief open circuit, where a relay will stay closed
unless the sensor stays open for about a second.


"John Smith" wrote in message
Thanks for your help (and others, too). I visited your and other sites
mentioned in this thread, and I wish I could do a DIY. It looks like the
most fun anyone could have (I am an electrical engineer by education, and
a
S/W engineer by trade). The problem is, I am about 250mi away from my
new
house, and will be for the next few weeks , and I can't delay the
finishing
of the house without getting into a domestic battle.

I am meeting with the builder on Tuesday, and I will ask for the schedule
to
see if it is possible to fit myself into it .

To summarize what I gained through the net-wisdom:
1. Design a wiring closet in a secure location. Since I am already
planning
to have a home network and file server, and I can use CAT5 cables for the
security system, then I only need to have additional CAT5s for the
security
system. Does it matter if I use stranded or solid CAT5?

2. Call around for an installer who does this for a living (I-zheet
M'drurz,
take notes ) and willing to do the pre-install only. Most likely I
will go
with the original installer when the time comes anyway, as long the fees
are not
outrageous (again, I-zheet M'drurz, take notes ).

JerryMouse wrote in message
...
alarman wrote
Kukutyin wrote

You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

You are a fool if you think a dog is the answer to your security
needs. Same goes for a gun. I just love it when some idiot says
"alarm? My .357 is the only protection I need."

A homeowner with a pistol (or the fear of a homeowner
with a pistol) is the only guaranteed burglary deterent.

It isnt guaranteed, essentially because no burglar can
be sure that someone inside the house is armed, and
obviously if there is no one in the house when its being
burgled, the gun wont do a damned thing to the burglar.

The big advantage of a dog is that with a suitable dog, even
the stupidest crim should be aware that the dog is there.

Guard dogs can be killed,

Not that easy if the dog is inside the house.

All you normally need to do is provide enough of an
incentive for the crim to loot someone else's house.

Even the stupidest crim can usually be relied on to work that out.

alarms don't bother the smash-and-grab crooks,

A large dog does tho.

burglar bars only slow the squints.

Oh bull****. What its about is making it obvious that your place is
a hell of a lot more of a hassle to loot that someone else's place.

Don't believe me? Put the following sign on your front door:

There are no
GUNS
in this house!

And see how long you last.

Irrelevant to whether a suitable dog is more use
than a gun, particularly when there is no one home.

George Wenzel wrote in
message ...
wrote

A homeowner with a pistol (or the fear of a homeowner
with a pistol) is the only guaranteed burglary deterent.

Bull****. Say you've got a house with no alarm and no dog. Want
to find out if there's a homeowner there with a gun? Use foolproof
method: RING THE DOORBELL. If nobody answers, then you don't
have to worry about the "guaranteed burglary deterrent" being a problem.

There is a risk that someone inside will choose not to
answer the door, assuming that its just a salesfool etc.

With a dog inside, that should make it obvious to
even the stupidest crim that there is a dog inside and
it should be obvious its a large dog when it is too.

Oh, and don't forget that you vastly increase the
chances that you or a family member will get shot
if you decide to keep a loaded weapon in your house.

Not if you take sensible precautions with the firearms.

Guard dogs can be killed, alarms don't bother the
smash-and-grab crooks, burglar bars only slow the squints.

All of these methods are perfectly reasonable ways of making
your house a less desirable target than the one next to it, which
is all you really need to do to prevent break-ins. Crooks (for the
most part) aren't stupid - they'll target the house that looks like
it's the least trouble to get in and out of.

"John Smith" wrote in message
om...
I am building a new house, and as an almost afterthought,
I want to install
prewiring for an alarm system. I am thinking of just
prewiring the system for
now, and purchase the system/subscription later. The
drywall is not up, so
this should be reasonably easy to do.

Hi John,

It is VERY wise to prewire for an alarm system. However,
due to the huge number of variations between systems, you
really should window-shop the residential alarm business and
target the installation for one or two of the available
systems to be precisely chosen at a later date.
Research should initially include, IMO, things such as:
-- Local codes, if any, regarding residential alarms.
-- Telco requirements/rules regarding residential alarms.
-- Install method: Open loop wiring closed loop wiring,
digital, RF (radio transmitters and receivers), eg the types
of systems available.
-- Personally, I prefer,and use, and RF system; no wiring
except ac to the main equipment box (with internal battery
backup operation).
-- Type/level of protection needed
-- Fire?
-- Burglary?
-- Remote Appliance Controls?
-- Listen-in features?
-- Flooding?
-- Freeezing?
-- Motion?
-- Alarm Monitoring Company to respond to alarms?
-- and so on thru glass breakage detectors, and many
more.
-- How many zones are required? I have 6 available, each
capable of 8 alarms. Not all used.

So, basically, you need to post more information if you
would like good answers, IMO. If you're ignorant of many of
these items, as most people are, then some online research
can help considerably.

On the other hand, if you are going to have this installed
for you, then I would get a couple of quotes from a couple
of installers of alarm systems. Probably more accurate.

Radio Shack is a good place to start research, believe it or
not. Try a Google search for "residential alarm systems"
(including the quotes) and you'll get a plethora of links
where you can learn a LOT, and get edumacated about alarm
systems.

If you wish to come back here, I'll be happy to answer
questions where I can, or at least maybe give you a source
where you can find answers.

Here are a couple of clarifications/corrections to some
incorrect information I saw posted to you:

CAT 5 (Category 5) wi
-- Is NOT stranded wire; it's solid, 24 gauge wire, 4
pairs, 8 conductors total, in a sheath a little larger than
the standard telephone wiring.
-- CAT 5 wire is NOT large: it fits easily thru a 1/4"
drilled hole.
-- There was a lot of talk about "4 wire" and while much of
the phone wiring is actually 4 wire, and only 2 of those are
used, keep in mind that they are in a 6 pin plug, not a 4
pin. It's called RJ-11.
-- There was talk about difficulty closing a window
becvause of wire size or somethbing like that: that would
not be a good insallation and isn't normal. Ignore it, IMO.

-- There is nothing that would require CAT 5 cabling, but,
that said, should you ever wish to network computers
together later on, you'd be mighty glad to have it already
in place. Maybe a separate issue there. There are RF
networks too, that avoid wiring between computers, but
they're not very good. Yet. Improving though.

Also note that alarm control units are usually placed in a
closet or out of
view.
== NO, the main alarm equipment BOX, which contains the
logic and computer controls, is usually located in a
separate closet! The "control panel" is usually located
convenient to the most used exit for convenience in
arm/disarm ing the system. There are often other
sub-control panels, smaller in size and function, located to
serve the garage, back door, wherever they are deemed
needed.

They need electrical outlets nearby and use large plug-in
transformers for the control unit, motion detectors, and
sometimes smoke
detectors. So you can have 3 large transformers to plug in
plus may == ONLY if three separate alarm systems were
installed, which wouldn't make much sense. These days there
is usually only one external power pack IFF it's a Class-2
system, and as often as not, in a quality system, there is
no external power pack; it's insecure to have external
power packs. The better systems are hard wired. Outlets
should be nearby, preferrably two duplex outlets, but ...
not for several alarm system components.

== There SHOULD be a dedicated breaker for the alarm ckt,
however.

HTH. Any questions as you get going, happy to try to help
or at least find a source for your answers.

Pop

"Robert L. Bass" wrote:

I just love it when some idiot says "alarm? My .357 is the
only protection I need."

Half the time they wind up shooting themselves or their kid shoots a
playmate. The other half of the time the thief takes the gun away and
shoots them with it.

Right.

According to the CDC, there were 802 unintentional firearms deaths
in 2001, nationwide. By contrast, there were 3,923 drownings.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 05:27:09 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


JerryMouse wrote in message
...
alarman wrote
Kukutyin wrote

You don't need prewiring the house. if you are use German Shepherd

You are a fool if you think a dog is the answer to your security
needs. Same goes for a gun. I just love it when some idiot says
"alarm? My .357 is the only protection I need."

A homeowner with a pistol (or the fear of a homeowner
with a pistol) is the only guaranteed burglary deterent.

It isnt guaranteed, essentially because no burglar can
be sure that someone inside the house is armed, and
obviously if there is no one in the house when its being
burgled, the gun wont do a damned thing to the burglar.

The big advantage of a dog is that with a suitable dog, even
the stupidest crim should be aware that the dog is there.

There are other considerations that owners face when dealing with
protection dogs. I can't think of anyone who would want to be in the
place of these dog owners...



Investigation continues into deadly dog mauling attack

Source:http://www.kgw.com/news-local/storie...15d994037.html

02:40 PM PDT on Monday, April 26, 2004

By ABE ESTIMADA, ANTONIA GIEDWOYN and CHRISTINE UMAYAM, KGW Staff

SIFTON, Wash. -- The owners of two dogs that may have been involved in
the mauling and killing of an eight-year-old boy during the weekend
gave up possession of their pets on Monday.

John Streeter, 8, was mauled to death by his neighbor's dogs. The
female dogs, a mix of Bullmastiff and German shepherd, named Diamond
and Precious remain impounded at The Humane Society for Southwest
Washington. At least one of the dogs was involved in the attack, but
it is unknown if both killed Johnny Streeter.

Also, Monday, investigators ruled the cause of death as blunt cervical
trauma, which matches what detectives initially suspected in the dog
attack.

While the investigation continues into the attack that killed Johnny,
parents and Evergreen School District officials in southwest
Washington tried to explain to their children and students what
happened on Saturday.

Obviously, they’re going to talk to the kindergartners a little
differently than they’ll talk to the fifth graders, but talk to them
about the fact that a child was attacked by dogs, what happened, and
then just let kids talk, said Carol Fenstermacher, a spokesperson for
the school district.

One of the two mix Bullmastiff-Shepard dogs that mauled the boy. The
dogs haven’t had any problems in the past, said Brittany Gosselin,
director of development for the Humane Society.

This is the first, apparently, that they’ve shown up on anybody’s
radar screen, she said. The sheriff’s department has looked into it.
Animal control has looked into it.

Neighbors said Johnny had often played with the dogs, who were
considered sweet and docile. Bullmastiffs are considered
family-oriented dogs with calm, protective dispositions, according to
the American Kennel Club.

The boy lived next door to the animals. Johnny had apparently gone
next door to play with his 14-year-old and 15-year-old neighbors in
the 14500 block of NE 71st Street in Sifton, a community northeast of
Vancouver.

The teens' parents were on vacation away from home when the dogs
attacked, said Sgt. Steve Shea, a spokesman for the Clark County
Sheriff's Office. The parents, whose names haven't been released,
reportedly instructed their children not to let anyone into the
backyard with the two dogs while they were away.

The three kids had been playing inside the home before Streeter
apparently went into the yard when no one was watching.

The 15-year-old girl called 9-1-1 when she saw Streeter in the
backyard with the dogs on top of him, authorities said. Clark County
sheriff's deputies pronounced the boy dead about 7 p.m. Saturday. No
arrests have been made.

After their investigation, the Clark Co. Sheriff's Office Major Crimes
Unit finish will turn the case over to the prosecutor's office.
Authorities with the prosecutor's office will then review the case and
decide if charges should be filed and what will happen to the dogs,
Shea said.

(The Associated Press contributed to this report.)

Beachcomber wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote
JerryMouse wrote
alarman wrote
Kukutyin wrote

You don't need prewiring the house.
if you are use German Shepherd

You are a fool if you think a dog is the answer to your security
needs. Same goes for a gun. I just love it when some idiot says
"alarm? My .357 is the only protection I need."

A homeowner with a pistol (or the fear of a homeowner
with a pistol) is the only guaranteed burglary deterent.

It isnt guaranteed, essentially because no burglar can
be sure that someone inside the house is armed, and
obviously if there is no one in the house when its being
burgled, the gun wont do a damned thing to the burglar.

The big advantage of a dog is that with a suitable dog, even
the stupidest crim should be aware that the dog is there.

There are other considerations that owners face when
dealing with protection dogs. I can't think of anyone
who would want to be in the place of these dog owners...

More fool you.

Investigation continues into deadly dog mauling attack

Mindless stuff. That situation is very easy to avoid, most
obviously keeping the dog inside the house when you are out.

I certainly did do that, basically because I wasnt too keen
on what might happen if one of the neighbour's kids came
over the fence to get a ball back while I wasnt home.

The only marginally undesirable event I ever had was with
one of the neighbour's kids that had his own dog. He used
to come over quite a bit and would normally pat the dog as
the first thing he did. I warned him that it wasnt a good idea
to do that if he was chewing on one of his bones, he was
very defensive of his bones. One day the kid did it when the
dog was chewing his bone, got a pretty enthusiastic snarl.
I'd never actually seen someone turn grey in an instant before |-)

He didnt get bitten or anything.

Ahh, **** you anyway. Motion detectors facing windows don't cause any problems.
You are one paul would call "A so called pro"
haha

"G. Morgan" wrote in message
...
| Someone named "Another Anonymous" Proclaimed
| on Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:54:23 GMT,
|
| To start, I would
| place door contacts on all entryways and a smoke/carbon monoxide detector in
the
| utility and garage areas.
|
| Nope - we don't put smoke detectors in garages or utility rooms....
|
|
| Instead of wiring all of your windows with contacts,
|
| Nope - Now is the best time to get the windows wired for contacts.
| And motion detectors won't be on when the homeowner is home - so we DO
| wire the windows Mr. Anonymous
|
| place a motion detector in each room where a lot of windows will be installed
| aimed towards the windows
|
|
|
| Nope - we don't aim motion detectors right at windows!
|
| You better stick to debating Paul about wireless dude.
|
|
| -Graham
|
|
|
|
|

snip

Motion sensors need 4 wires (two for DC power). Better to use 6 or 8
conductor for long runs so wires can be doubled up for DC power (DC Voltage
drop). Motion sensors are usually mounted near the ceiling in a corner, and
usually in living room and/or hallway.

snip

What if you had a 15 feet ceiling? Most motions are to be mounted 7.5 feet
from the floor.