I am replacing an old stove. There is 220V power, but there is no
outlet on the wall behind the stove. The wires (encased in a flexible
metal conduit) were coming from under the floor, and they were
directly attached to the old stove. The sales person at Lowes told me
that that is no longer allowed by code, and that I have to install an
outlet and then use 3-prong plug to attach the stove to it. Can anyone
verify that? The old stove was a 'drop-in' kind, but the new one is a
floor unit, if that makes any difference to the situation.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
....
I am replacing an old stove. There is 220V power, but there is no
outlet on the wall behind the stove. The wires (encased in a flexible
metal conduit) were coming from under the floor, and they were
directly attached to the old stove. The sales person at Lowes told me
that that is no longer allowed by code, and that I have to install an
outlet and then use 3-prong plug to attach the stove to it. Can anyone
verify that? The old stove was a 'drop-in' kind, but the new one is a
floor unit, if that makes any difference to the situation.

I don't know about the code, but it is not a big deal to change. If the
wire is in BX, you can use a surface mounted receptacle and attach the
existing wires to it.

Hi,
Anyhow, you can buy a pig tail with plug and outlet in a square box.
Connect the wires to the outlet using clamp at the entry hole. Mount the
box recessed in the wall or in the floor and plug the pig tail.
Regardless of code, I'd do it for convenience.
Tony

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I am replacing an old stove. There is 220V power, but there is no
outlet on the wall behind the stove. The wires (encased in a flexible
metal conduit) were coming from under the floor, and they were
directly attached to the old stove. The sales person at Lowes told me
that that is no longer allowed by code, and that I have to install an
outlet and then use 3-prong plug to attach the stove to it. Can anyone
verify that? The old stove was a 'drop-in' kind, but the new one is a
floor unit, if that makes any difference to the situation.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
m...
I am replacing an old stove. There is 220V power, but there is no
outlet on the wall behind the stove. The wires (encased in a flexible
metal conduit) were coming from under the floor, and they were
directly attached to the old stove. The sales person at Lowes told me
that that is no longer allowed by code, and that I have to install an
outlet and then use 3-prong plug to attach the stove to it. Can anyone
verify that? The old stove was a 'drop-in' kind, but the new one is a
floor unit, if that makes any difference to the situation.

All appliances require a means to disconnect them within sight of the
appliance, or a means to disconnect them and then lock them out.
A plug will obviously meet that requirement; but presumably your breaker
will accept a "lock-off" device.
So, my understanding is that the sales person is wrong in general; however,
your town may have more restrictive requirements than normal, or they might
not accept the "lock-off" device. I would call the town if you are
concerned.

I hate to throw in another complication, but current code requires both a
neutral and a ground, and you don't have them. Ordinarily you would not
need to update your wiring to meet current code if you were just attaching a
new stove, but if you change something on the circuit (such as installing an
outlet where there wasn't one before) the finished product must meet current
code. Again, your town may or may not enforce it this rigorously.

I just replaced my father in laws electric stove and the new stoves are 4 prong
not three. Make sure you find out which one your new stove will have before you
go buy anything.
Wade or anyone else do you know the reason for the neutral on 220V I don't
understand why it is needed. THough all you needed was two feeds of 110V and a
ground. Are they splitting the power and running the controls and clock on 110V
now?

"Randd01" wrote in message
...
I just replaced my father in laws electric stove and the new stoves are 4
prong
not three. Make sure you find out which one your new stove will have
before you
go buy anything.
Wade or anyone else do you know the reason for the neutral on 220V I don't
understand why it is needed. THough all you needed was two feeds of 110V
and a
ground. Are they splitting the power and running the controls and clock on
110V
now?


Exactly. The clock/timers/display panel and interior lite, if you have one,
runs on 120V.
They have been for some time, I think.
Dave

thanks!

Whereas On 23 Oct 2003 10:20:13 GMT, (Randd01)
scribbled:
, I thus relpy:
I just replaced my father in laws electric stove and the new stoves are 4 prong
not three. Make sure you find out which one your new stove will have before you
go buy anything.
Wade or anyone else do you know the reason for the neutral on 220V I don't
understand why it is needed. THough all you needed was two feeds of 110V and a
ground. Are they splitting the power and running the controls and clock on 110V
now?

tHe are using the neutral to power clocks and such. For new
installations, the code no longer allows using the ground as the
neutral for a stove, but if it is two wires + ground there, you can
install an old style recepticle there, and install an old style cord
on the stove.
--
Gary J. Tait . Email is at yahoo.com ; ID:classicsat

"Gary Tait" wrote in message
...
Whereas On 23 Oct 2003 10:20:13 GMT, (Randd01)
scribbled:
, I thus relpy:
I just replaced my father in laws electric stove and the new stoves are 4
prong
not three. Make sure you find out which one your new stove will have
before you
go buy anything.
Wade or anyone else do you know the reason for the neutral on 220V I
don't
understand why it is needed. THough all you needed was two feeds of 110V
and a
ground. Are they splitting the power and running the controls and clock
on 110V
now?

tHe are using the neutral to power clocks and such. For new
installations, the code no longer allows using the ground as the
neutral for a stove, but if it is two wires + ground there, you can
install an old style recepticle there, and install an old style cord
on the stove.

Also, when installing a 3-wire (old style) cord on a range or dryer it is
very critical that the (factory) jumper be connected from the neutral
terminal (on the terminal block) to the appliance frame...........otherwise
the frame will _not_ be grounded.

"volts500" wrote in message
m...

"Gary Tait" wrote in message
...
Whereas On 23 Oct 2003 10:20:13 GMT, (Randd01)
scribbled:
, I thus relpy:
I just replaced my father in laws electric stove and the new stoves are
4
prong
not three. Make sure you find out which one your new stove will have
before you
go buy anything.
Wade or anyone else do you know the reason for the neutral on 220V I
don't
understand why it is needed. THough all you needed was two feeds of
110V
and a
ground. Are they splitting the power and running the controls and clock
on 110V
now?

tHe are using the neutral to power clocks and such. For new
installations, the code no longer allows using the ground as the
neutral for a stove, but if it is two wires + ground there, you can
install an old style recepticle there, and install an old style cord
on the stove.

Also, when installing a 3-wire (old style) cord on a range or dryer it is
very critical that the (factory) jumper be connected from the neutral
terminal (on the terminal block) to the appliance
frame...........otherwise
the frame will _not_ be grounded.

This is Turtle.

Is it legal to combine the Neutral and the ground at the receptical behind
the stove and not go all the way back to switch box with the extra ground or
neutral / making 4 wire system Hot,hot,Ground, and Neutral?

TURTLE

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:37:10 -0500, TURTLE wrote:

very critical that the (factory) jumper be connected from the neutral
terminal (on the terminal block) to the appliance
frame...........otherwise
the frame will _not_ be grounded.

This is Turtle.

Is it legal to combine the Neutral and the ground at the receptical behind
the stove and not go all the way back to switch box with the extra ground or
neutral / making 4 wire system Hot,hot,Ground, and Neutral?


No, it isn't. The box has to maintain the distinction between the
grounDED (neutral) conductor and the groundING conductor (green/bare),
which are only connected at the service entrance in residential work.

The idea is that the green wire only carries current in the event of a
fault. If they're combined in the box, the ground could carry current
in normal operation, which isn't Kosher.

It should be easy enough to either install the proper jumper or a new
4-pole outlet.

New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY, not new
appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was connected
and don't worry about "what the guy at Lowe's told me."

People who work at home centers are either has-beens or wanna-bes and love
baffling homeowners with what little knowledge they do have, even if it's
inaccurate or inapplicable.

HERE HERE!!

According to Wade Lippman :
All appliances require a means to disconnect them within sight of the
appliance, or a means to disconnect them and then lock them out.
A plug will obviously meet that requirement; but presumably your breaker
will accept a "lock-off" device.
So, my understanding is that the sales person is wrong in general; however,
your town may have more restrictive requirements than normal, or they might
not accept the "lock-off" device. I would call the town if you are
concerned.

Here (Canada) whenever you replaced a stove or dryer you _had_ to install a
4-wire outlet, full stop. This dates back at least 30 years.

I hate to throw in another complication, but current code requires both a
neutral and a ground, and you don't have them. Ordinarily you would not
need to update your wiring to meet current code if you were just attaching a
new stove, but if you change something on the circuit (such as installing an
outlet where there wasn't one before) the finished product must meet current
code. Again, your town may or may not enforce it this rigorously.

As I understand it, while Canada insists on going to 4 wire on ALL installations
(or renovations), US code has grandfathered 3 wire to the point where just
putting an outlet on a 3-wire circuit won't require an upgrade to 4-wire. Ask
an inspector to be sure. This will probably vary widely from place to place.

[This is despite the fact that in the US, they permit you to treat conduit as
a ground, hence a conduited 3-wire circuit is trivially upgradeable to 4 wire,
but in Canada, you cannot (legally) use conduit as a grounding conductor.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to TURTLE :

Is it legal to combine the Neutral and the ground at the receptical behind
the stove and not go all the way back to switch box with the extra ground or
neutral / making 4 wire system Hot,hot,Ground, and Neutral?

I would suspect _not_, because having the four prong plug will be misleading.
Perhaps not "illegal" per-se, but an inspector wouldn't like it.

Besides, it's usually very difficult to pigtail #8 or #6 wire inside the
outlet like that.

I wouldn't install a four prong outlet & plug unless the circuit really was
four wire. Three wire stove/dryer circuits are still legal for "old construction"
(down there), so I'd stick with three prong unless you really were upping the
circuit to 4 wire.

New construction, of course, must be 4 wire.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to HA HA Budys Here :
New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY, not new
appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was connected

Not always. While _most_ old practise is grandfathered, there are exceptions.
Like smoke detector rules. It _certainly_ is here in the case of stoves and
dryers.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

From: (Chris Lewis)
Date: 10/23/2003 5:15 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

According to HA HA Budys Here :
New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY, not
new
appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was
connected

Not always. While _most_ old practise is grandfathered, there are
exceptions.
Like smoke detector rules. It _certainly_ is here in the case of stoves and
dryers.
--
Chris Lewis

Really Chris?
Where exactly is "here?"
Say a homeowner with a 30 year old range, directly wired, replaces it with a
new one. What code or city/county ordinance supercedes your National or
Canadian electrical code which has absolutely no provision to replace that kind
of installation with an updated, current code-compliant method?

From: (Chris Lewis)
Date: 10/23/2003 5:13 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

According to TURTLE :

Is it legal to combine the Neutral and the ground at the receptical behind
the stove and not go all the way back to switch box with the extra ground
or
neutral / making 4 wire system Hot,hot,Ground, and Neutral?

I would suspect _not_, because having the four prong plug will be misleading.
Perhaps not "illegal" per-se, but an inspector wouldn't like it.

No, it would definately be illegal.

Besides, it's usually very difficult to pigtail #8 or #6 wire inside the
outlet like that.

In the case where only a 3-wire existed, it would be a hot, hot, ground. And
most likely, type SEU cable. So the "pigtailing" would be from ground to
neutral, not neutral to ground. The ground would be smaller than the
conductors. And with all the 8/3 with ground I've seen, the ground is #10
anyway.


I wouldn't install a four prong outlet & plug unless the circuit really was
four wire. Three wire stove/dryer circuits are still legal for "old
construction"

The correct phrase would be "existing installations."

(down there), so I'd stick with three prong unless you really were upping the
circuit to 4 wire.

New construction, of course, must be 4 wire.
--
Chris Lewis

On 23 Oct 2003 21:15:50 GMT, Chris Lewis wrote:
According to HA HA Budys Here :
New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY, not new
appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was connected

Not always. While _most_ old practise is grandfathered, there are exceptions.
Like smoke detector rules. It _certainly_ is here in the case of stoves and
dryers.

Oh, tell me about it. We had our basement finished earlier this year
in our ranch house. But to get approval, we had to have the entire house
retrofitted with A/C powered, interconnected smoke detectors.

If we had the permit in hand just 2 weeks earlier, then the new
smoke detectors wouldn't have been required. Gotta love it...

According to HA HA Budys Here :
From: (Chris Lewis)
Date: 10/23/2003 5:15 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

According to HA HA Budys Here :
New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY, not
new
appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was
connected

Not always. While _most_ old practise is grandfathered, there are
exceptions.
Like smoke detector rules. It _certainly_ is here in the case of stoves and
dryers.

Really Chris?

Really.

Where exactly is "here?"
Say a homeowner with a 30 year old range, directly wired, replaces it with a
new one. What code or city/county ordinance supercedes your National or
Canadian electrical code which has absolutely no provision to replace that kind
of installation with an updated, current code-compliant method?

Under the "new work must comply with code" rules and what the inspectors
_insist_ upon.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

From: (Chris Lewis)


According to HA HA Budys Here :
From: (Chris Lewis)
Date: 10/23/2003 5:15 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

According to HA HA Budys Here :
New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY,
not
new
appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was
connected

Not always. While _most_ old practise is grandfathered, there are
exceptions.
Like smoke detector rules. It _certainly_ is here in the case of stoves
and
dryers.

Really Chris?

Really.

Where exactly is "here?"
Say a homeowner with a 30 year old range, directly wired, replaces it with
a
new one. What code or city/county ordinance supercedes your National or
Canadian electrical code which has absolutely no provision to replace that
kind
of installation with an updated, current code-compliant method?

Under the "new work must comply with code" rules and what the inspectors
_insist_ upon.
--
Chris Lewis

Replacing an existing appliance is not new work Chris. Not here, not in Canada,
not anywhere.

I suppose in an old home, wired with knob & tube, or 2-wire NM cable, you're
not permitted to replace the 2-prong outlets with new 2-prong outlets either,
huh?

According to HA HA Budys Here :
From: (Chris Lewis)
According to HA HA Budys Here :

new one. What code or city/county ordinance supercedes your National or
Canadian electrical code which has absolutely no provision to replace that
kind
of installation with an updated, current code-compliant method?

Under the "new work must comply with code" rules and what the inspectors
_insist_ upon.

Replacing an existing appliance is not new work Chris. Not here, not in Canada,
not anywhere.

Replacing an existing piece of _hardwired_ equipment, and inspectors insisting
upon it.

I suppose in an old home, wired with knob & tube, or 2-wire NM cable, you're
not permitted to replace the 2-prong outlets with new 2-prong outlets either,
huh?

Specific exemption. It's pretty hard to find a two prong receptacle here
in any case.

See the electrical wiring FAQ.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Chris Lewis :
According to HA HA Budys Here :
I suppose in an old home, wired with knob & tube, or 2-wire NM cable, you're
not permitted to replace the 2-prong outlets with new 2-prong outlets either,
huh?

Specific exemption. It's pretty hard to find a two prong receptacle here
in any case.

I should add, as an additional example of where grandfathering does not work
is that of GFIs. If an outlet needs to be replaced in a location that now
requires GFI, you're required to add GFI. Ie: "shaver outlets" in bathrooms.

You could even replace it with a 2 prong. But the circuit must now be GFI
protected.

See the electrical wiring FAQ.

Ditto.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.