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#1
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall
(poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#2
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
"Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? Not "rare," but certainly not routine or normal. I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Have the builder propose his solution and timetable for effecting it, in writing preferably. That way, any competent authority can assess the damage, potential and proposed solution in one effort. More effective, efficient and also more equitable method to you and to the builder. If you must retain a structural engineer, you should have an agreement sufficient for the closing on your purchase stating that you will retain and pay the engineer at your expense. If, however, the builder disputes the hiring and there is faulty construction, the builder shall reimburse your expense. Although you have not closed on the purchase, you do have an equitable interest in the purchase and the property sufficient to enforce the contractor's work and reasonable performance. The contractor, however, must be given opportunity to correct and/or complete his work without penalty. How and when there is reimbursement of expense of the engineer is the likely hang-up on enforcing any agreement. If you are willing to chance that expense without reimbursement, then go for it. If you are not, proceed a bit more cautiously and give the builder adequate opportunity. Do go on record, written, with copies to everyone concerned (seller, builder if different, title company, mortgage company, etc.) as to the original complaint and request (stay polite at this point . . . leave the "demands" to the attornies) for correction suitable to you. Don't just say suitable to an engineer. Say suitable to you. Of course, it won't be suitable to you if it isn't suitable to the engineer. However, what an engineer may deem technically adequate may not be the workmanship either you or the builder would prefer. (Remember, builders want to do good work. They appreciate reasonable, patient buyers and will usually work their butts off for a good buyer.) But, CYA. Good luck, Jim Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#3
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
"Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? Not "rare," but certainly not routine or normal. I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Have the builder propose his solution and timetable for effecting it, in writing preferably. That way, any competent authority can assess the damage, potential and proposed solution in one effort. More effective, efficient and also more equitable method to you and to the builder. If you must retain a structural engineer, you should have an agreement sufficient for the closing on your purchase stating that you will retain and pay the engineer at your expense. If, however, the builder disputes the hiring and there is faulty construction, the builder shall reimburse your expense. Although you have not closed on the purchase, you do have an equitable interest in the purchase and the property sufficient to enforce the contractor's work and reasonable performance. The contractor, however, must be given opportunity to correct and/or complete his work without penalty. How and when there is reimbursement of expense of the engineer is the likely hang-up on enforcing any agreement. If you are willing to chance that expense without reimbursement, then go for it. If you are not, proceed a bit more cautiously and give the builder adequate opportunity. Do go on record, written, with copies to everyone concerned (seller, builder if different, title company, mortgage company, etc.) as to the original complaint and request (stay polite at this point . . . leave the "demands" to the attornies) for correction suitable to you. Don't just say suitable to an engineer. Say suitable to you. Of course, it won't be suitable to you if it isn't suitable to the engineer. However, what an engineer may deem technically adequate may not be the workmanship either you or the builder would prefer. (Remember, builders want to do good work. They appreciate reasonable, patient buyers and will usually work their butts off for a good buyer.) But, CYA. Good luck, Jim Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#4
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
031004 1047 - Zhixin Tang wrote:
Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom My brother had a house built on a cliff overlooking a lake. He had a deck built overlooking this view. He was in the process of finishing the basement area when he noticed a crack in the concrete basement foundation wall near the cliff edge. He contacted the builder and had the crack patched. A few months later the crack widened. He was about to have some paneling done to that wall. The builder had to come back and repatch the crack. My brother then paneled the wall and carpeted the floor and did other and sundry finishing projects in the basement area, and a few months later noticed that the paneling over where the crack area was separating from the wall. He removed the paneling and saw the crack was ever widening. He recontacted the builder, who did an investigation of the history of the area, and found that the house was built on a fault line. A new basement had to be dug out, and the house was "dragged" about 20 feet back from the cliff area and over the new basement. |
#5
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
031004 1047 - Zhixin Tang wrote:
Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom My brother had a house built on a cliff overlooking a lake. He had a deck built overlooking this view. He was in the process of finishing the basement area when he noticed a crack in the concrete basement foundation wall near the cliff edge. He contacted the builder and had the crack patched. A few months later the crack widened. He was about to have some paneling done to that wall. The builder had to come back and repatch the crack. My brother then paneled the wall and carpeted the floor and did other and sundry finishing projects in the basement area, and a few months later noticed that the paneling over where the crack area was separating from the wall. He removed the paneling and saw the crack was ever widening. He recontacted the builder, who did an investigation of the history of the area, and found that the house was built on a fault line. A new basement had to be dug out, and the house was "dragged" about 20 feet back from the cliff area and over the new basement. |
#6
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
I had a similar crack in my foundation, in the basement. I noticed it about
a month after we moved in (new construction). The builder had the foundation subcontractor come back and they inserted several metal rods horizontally up and down the crack, injected some sort of expanding material into the crack (I can see that it went all the way through the wall to the outside), then spread cement over the whole thing. I haven't noticed any other cracks since then (5 years) and there is no leaking. Ask the builder about it - if the builder subcontracted the foundation work, he'll just have the foundation guy come back. I really didn't even have to insist on it. I showed him the crack and he had the foundation guy back the next day (since that happened so quickly, I am assuming it didn't cost the builder anything and the subcontractor expects to have to fix the occasional crack). If the builder doesn't want to have it fixed, then ask the building inspector or hire a home inspector to do an inspection before closing and see what he thinks. "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#7
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
I had a similar crack in my foundation, in the basement. I noticed it about
a month after we moved in (new construction). The builder had the foundation subcontractor come back and they inserted several metal rods horizontally up and down the crack, injected some sort of expanding material into the crack (I can see that it went all the way through the wall to the outside), then spread cement over the whole thing. I haven't noticed any other cracks since then (5 years) and there is no leaking. Ask the builder about it - if the builder subcontracted the foundation work, he'll just have the foundation guy come back. I really didn't even have to insist on it. I showed him the crack and he had the foundation guy back the next day (since that happened so quickly, I am assuming it didn't cost the builder anything and the subcontractor expects to have to fix the occasional crack). If the builder doesn't want to have it fixed, then ask the building inspector or hire a home inspector to do an inspection before closing and see what he thinks. "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#8
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
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#9
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
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#10
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
If you can get out of the deal, do so as fast as you can. It is not worth
taking the chance that you will have enormous, expensive problems with this house down the road. Get out NOW and DON'T LOOK BACK! Peter |
#11
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
If you can get out of the deal, do so as fast as you can. It is not worth
taking the chance that you will have enormous, expensive problems with this house down the road. Get out NOW and DON'T LOOK BACK! Peter |
#12
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
- indago -
...He removed the paneling and saw the crack was ever widening. He recontacted the builder, who did an investigation of the history of the area, and found that the house was built on a fault line. A new basement had to be dug out, and the house was "dragged" about 20 feet back from the cliff area and over the new basement. - Nehmo - Can there be earth movement about a fault line without there being an earthquake? -- ******************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ******************* |
#13
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
- indago -
...He removed the paneling and saw the crack was ever widening. He recontacted the builder, who did an investigation of the history of the area, and found that the house was built on a fault line. A new basement had to be dug out, and the house was "dragged" about 20 feet back from the cliff area and over the new basement. - Nehmo - Can there be earth movement about a fault line without there being an earthquake? -- ******************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ******************* |
#14
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
Look in the Yellow pages under Engineers and call a few to get one out
to look at it. "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#15
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
Look in the Yellow pages under Engineers and call a few to get one out
to look at it. "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom |
#16
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Have an engineer look at it. Was the first floor joists installed
before backfilling? If not the pressure could have cracked it. "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... (Zhixin Tang) wrote in message . com... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom A correction: The house has not closed yet. I've waited for this house for several months. However, if it is a serious foundation problem, is not better I just get my down money back and walk away? Tom |
#17
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Have an engineer look at it. Was the first floor joists installed
before backfilling? If not the pressure could have cracked it. "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message om... (Zhixin Tang) wrote in message . com... Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom A correction: The house has not closed yet. I've waited for this house for several months. However, if it is a serious foundation problem, is not better I just get my down money back and walk away? Tom |
#18
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Can there be earth movement about a fault line without there being an
earthquake? Yes. An earthquake is what happens when a fault is prevented from its natural movement by rock friction: eventually the pressure builds up and it snaps violently. |
#19
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Can there be earth movement about a fault line without there being an
earthquake? Yes. An earthquake is what happens when a fault is prevented from its natural movement by rock friction: eventually the pressure builds up and it snaps violently. |
#20
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:32:34 -0700, someone wrote:
Get out NOW and DON'T LOOK BACK! Peter What kind of house do you live in? Are there really NO cracks of any kind in your concrete work? That is very hard to believe. Residential work often has cracks. The questions are, is it moving, is it even, how big is it. The often heard panic remarks, "it goes all the way through" and "it goes all the way up" are pretty meaningless. Of course it will, why would it stop half way. That is not the Q. Get someone knowledgeable to come out and see it in real life. -v. |
#21
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vertical foundation crack in new construction
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:32:34 -0700, someone wrote:
Get out NOW and DON'T LOOK BACK! Peter What kind of house do you live in? Are there really NO cracks of any kind in your concrete work? That is very hard to believe. Residential work often has cracks. The questions are, is it moving, is it even, how big is it. The often heard panic remarks, "it goes all the way through" and "it goes all the way up" are pretty meaningless. Of course it will, why would it stop half way. That is not the Q. Get someone knowledgeable to come out and see it in real life. -v. |
#22
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
I'd like to thank all of you who responded. Here are some new
information: The engineer hired by the builder had a visual inspection. He thinks it is differential foundation settling that caused the crack. The differential setting is estimated to be 1/8" and he said this kind of difference is covered by the design and is normal(?). He said because of elastic nature of soil initial load caused the crack and the crack should diminish over time with the current load. When the load changes (e.g. furniture, snow) it is expected that the crack should be proportional to load. The foundation is structural sound to support vertical weight What are your opinions? |
#23
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
I'd like to thank all of you who responded. Here are some new
information: The engineer hired by the builder had a visual inspection. He thinks it is differential foundation settling that caused the crack. The differential setting is estimated to be 1/8" and he said this kind of difference is covered by the design and is normal(?). He said because of elastic nature of soil initial load caused the crack and the crack should diminish over time with the current load. When the load changes (e.g. furniture, snow) it is expected that the crack should be proportional to load. The foundation is structural sound to support vertical weight What are your opinions? |
#24
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Concrete gets hard and cracks. It is almost the exception to the rule for there to be absolutely no cracks. There are many causes and most conscientious builders do their best to prevent them because they cause reactions just like yours. Your are paying top dollar for an expected result. Any deficiencies cause concern, apprehension, and even distrust; feelings which are not conducive to good or positive relationships. No one on this newsgroup can make you feel better or worse about your particular situation. Can you trust your contractor or accept his advice? If your answer is NO, perhaps you should change your present situation. If the man has been up front and honest with you, what else can he do? Your biggest issue is what can be done to remedy the crack issue. You have the advice of the builder's engineer. I assume the builder is paying for that inspection. I would be concerned about the exterior waterproofing over the crack. I would also ask advice about using epoxy injection to stabilize and repair the crack. If you hire your own engineer, you may get the same or similar answer, but you may be more willing to accept the answer. It is your decision, for long term peace of mind hire an independent 3rd party; split the cost with the builder if he is amenable or pay for it on your own so you can sleep at night. #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message m... I'd like to thank all of you who responded. Here are some new information: The engineer hired by the builder had a visual inspection. He thinks it is differential foundation settling that caused the crack. The differential setting is estimated to be 1/8" and he said this kind of difference is covered by the design and is normal(?). He said because of elastic nature of soil initial load caused the crack and the crack should diminish over time with the current load. When the load changes (e.g. furniture, snow) it is expected that the crack should be proportional to load. The foundation is structural sound to support vertical weight What are your opinions? |
#25
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Concrete gets hard and cracks. It is almost the exception to the rule for there to be absolutely no cracks. There are many causes and most conscientious builders do their best to prevent them because they cause reactions just like yours. Your are paying top dollar for an expected result. Any deficiencies cause concern, apprehension, and even distrust; feelings which are not conducive to good or positive relationships. No one on this newsgroup can make you feel better or worse about your particular situation. Can you trust your contractor or accept his advice? If your answer is NO, perhaps you should change your present situation. If the man has been up front and honest with you, what else can he do? Your biggest issue is what can be done to remedy the crack issue. You have the advice of the builder's engineer. I assume the builder is paying for that inspection. I would be concerned about the exterior waterproofing over the crack. I would also ask advice about using epoxy injection to stabilize and repair the crack. If you hire your own engineer, you may get the same or similar answer, but you may be more willing to accept the answer. It is your decision, for long term peace of mind hire an independent 3rd party; split the cost with the builder if he is amenable or pay for it on your own so you can sleep at night. #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message m... I'd like to thank all of you who responded. Here are some new information: The engineer hired by the builder had a visual inspection. He thinks it is differential foundation settling that caused the crack. The differential setting is estimated to be 1/8" and he said this kind of difference is covered by the design and is normal(?). He said because of elastic nature of soil initial load caused the crack and the crack should diminish over time with the current load. When the load changes (e.g. furniture, snow) it is expected that the crack should be proportional to load. The foundation is structural sound to support vertical weight What are your opinions? |
#26
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
A very rough rule of thumb is adding up all the cracks in the wall, and if
they're over 1/4" total, then you have significant settlement. Within this rule the engineer has given a plausible description. Vertical & diagonal are usually safer than horizontal cracks; the latter could indicate a possible wall failure & collapse. Did the builder perform soil testing on various points of the site, especially if that neighbourhood is prone to unstable soil conditions. What is the experience of other owners in that area? Are the footings adequate for that soil? Is there adequate rebar in both footings & foundation? If so, how did the 1/8" crack happen so soon? I've never heard of 1/8" differential settlement crack being an accepted part of a "design". Whose design is he referring to? (Mangle-Wood Construction?) Adequate perfomance on an older structure, yes, but I'd like to see the passage in an engineering text that says it's normal for a new foundation. While I haven't been around a lot of recently-constructed foundations, it seems a little odd to me. Was the foundation backfilled too soon, with heavy equipment mechanically damaging the foundation before it cured? Expansive soil can add typically 10% more pressure than non-expansive soil. This may have buckled the footing & foundations slightly before they cured. Is it very wet there, or did it rain much? A high water-table can increase hydrostatic pressure also. Good luck with it. Peter Shepherd 63 Pauline Ave Toronto "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message m... I'd like to thank all of you who responded. Here are some new information: The engineer hired by the builder had a visual inspection. He thinks it is differential foundation settling that caused the crack. The differential setting is estimated to be 1/8" and he said this kind of difference is covered by the design and is normal(?). He said because of elastic nature of soil initial load caused the crack and the crack should diminish over time with the current load. When the load changes (e.g. furniture, snow) it is expected that the crack should be proportional to load. The foundation is structural sound to support vertical weight What are your opinions? |
#27
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
A very rough rule of thumb is adding up all the cracks in the wall, and if
they're over 1/4" total, then you have significant settlement. Within this rule the engineer has given a plausible description. Vertical & diagonal are usually safer than horizontal cracks; the latter could indicate a possible wall failure & collapse. Did the builder perform soil testing on various points of the site, especially if that neighbourhood is prone to unstable soil conditions. What is the experience of other owners in that area? Are the footings adequate for that soil? Is there adequate rebar in both footings & foundation? If so, how did the 1/8" crack happen so soon? I've never heard of 1/8" differential settlement crack being an accepted part of a "design". Whose design is he referring to? (Mangle-Wood Construction?) Adequate perfomance on an older structure, yes, but I'd like to see the passage in an engineering text that says it's normal for a new foundation. While I haven't been around a lot of recently-constructed foundations, it seems a little odd to me. Was the foundation backfilled too soon, with heavy equipment mechanically damaging the foundation before it cured? Expansive soil can add typically 10% more pressure than non-expansive soil. This may have buckled the footing & foundations slightly before they cured. Is it very wet there, or did it rain much? A high water-table can increase hydrostatic pressure also. Good luck with it. Peter Shepherd 63 Pauline Ave Toronto "Zhixin Tang" wrote in message m... I'd like to thank all of you who responded. Here are some new information: The engineer hired by the builder had a visual inspection. He thinks it is differential foundation settling that caused the crack. The differential setting is estimated to be 1/8" and he said this kind of difference is covered by the design and is normal(?). He said because of elastic nature of soil initial load caused the crack and the crack should diminish over time with the current load. When the load changes (e.g. furniture, snow) it is expected that the crack should be proportional to load. The foundation is structural sound to support vertical weight What are your opinions? |
#28
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#29
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#30
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Is there a construction industry performance standard that defines if
1/8" settling crack in 2 months (too soon, too much)is normal or abnormal? I know concrete hairline shrinkage crack is normal but a settling crack of such a width so soon is normal? I doubt it. I like to have references if anyone knows. Thanks. "Peter Shepherd" wrote in message ... A very rough rule of thumb is adding up all the cracks in the wall, and if they're over 1/4" total, then you have significant settlement. Within this rule the engineer has given a plausible description. Vertical & diagonal are usually safer than horizontal cracks; the latter could indicate a possible wall failure & collapse. Did the builder perform soil testing on various points of the site, especially if that neighbourhood is prone to unstable soil conditions. What is the experience of other owners in that area? Are the footings adequate for that soil? Is there adequate rebar in both footings & foundation? If so, how did the 1/8" crack happen so soon? I've never heard of 1/8" differential settlement crack being an accepted part of a "design". Whose design is he referring to? (Mangle-Wood Construction?) Adequate perfomance on an older structure, yes, but I'd like to see the passage in an engineering text that says it's normal for a new foundation. While I haven't been around a lot of recently-constructed foundations, it seems a little odd to me. Was the foundation backfilled too soon, with heavy equipment mechanically damaging the foundation before it cured? Expansive soil can add typically 10% more pressure than non-expansive soil. This may have buckled the footing & foundations slightly before they cured. Is it very wet there, or did it rain much? A high water-table can increase hydrostatic pressure also. Good luck with it. Peter Shepherd 63 Pauline Ave Toronto |
#31
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Is there a construction industry performance standard that defines if
1/8" settling crack in 2 months (too soon, too much)is normal or abnormal? I know concrete hairline shrinkage crack is normal but a settling crack of such a width so soon is normal? I doubt it. I like to have references if anyone knows. Thanks. "Peter Shepherd" wrote in message ... A very rough rule of thumb is adding up all the cracks in the wall, and if they're over 1/4" total, then you have significant settlement. Within this rule the engineer has given a plausible description. Vertical & diagonal are usually safer than horizontal cracks; the latter could indicate a possible wall failure & collapse. Did the builder perform soil testing on various points of the site, especially if that neighbourhood is prone to unstable soil conditions. What is the experience of other owners in that area? Are the footings adequate for that soil? Is there adequate rebar in both footings & foundation? If so, how did the 1/8" crack happen so soon? I've never heard of 1/8" differential settlement crack being an accepted part of a "design". Whose design is he referring to? (Mangle-Wood Construction?) Adequate perfomance on an older structure, yes, but I'd like to see the passage in an engineering text that says it's normal for a new foundation. While I haven't been around a lot of recently-constructed foundations, it seems a little odd to me. Was the foundation backfilled too soon, with heavy equipment mechanically damaging the foundation before it cured? Expansive soil can add typically 10% more pressure than non-expansive soil. This may have buckled the footing & foundations slightly before they cured. Is it very wet there, or did it rain much? A high water-table can increase hydrostatic pressure also. Good luck with it. Peter Shepherd 63 Pauline Ave Toronto |
#32
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Hello, I have a similar problem with my new house under construction
and would like advice on how something like this is "fixed." The preliminary: The footer in the house is something like 18" deep and about 12-15" wide. After that hardened, the builder placed hollow, concrete cinder blocks (this is common practice in this area - about 8-9" x 12-14") to form the walls. In between each row of block is a long piece of some metal grid or rebar-like material placed in the mortar running horizontally. These walls are about 2 ft (2 blocks) tall in the front and 6-9 feet tall in the rear corners. About 3/8-1/2" rebar was placed vertically in the walls about every 2 feet all the way around with each rebar extending about 2-3 feet above the top of the wall. These cinder blocks were then poured solid with concrete. Now the problem: The concrete-filled walls sat about a week. Lots of rain on and off while many loads of dirt were brought to the site. Over the course of two days, the dirt was backfilled into the structure. No problem at first, but at the end of day while the track-hoe was smoothing the top and packing the dirt a vertical crack developed in the corner of the wall running perfectly vertical (not following the seams of the blocks). The track-hoe was only a couple of feet from the corner when this occurred. The crack begins actually on the side of the structure but at the rear corner about 1 block width from the rear corner. It is about 1/2-5/8" at the top and gets smaller at the bottom. It doesn't totally reach the bottom and tapers to a hair-line fracture at the 2nd block from the bottom. It does appear to go all the way through the wall. The builder is not playing it off. He is upset and consulted an engineer (?) who hasn't looked at the foundation, but told the builder it should be fine. The idea is that with the rebar in the walls bent over and tieing the walls into the soon-to-be poured floor and the metal grid-work running horizontally in between each row of block, it should be ok. I am assuming some type of "filler" will be used as well to seal the crack. Further, the builder intends to drill 6 holes 16" deep and 5/8" in diameter through the rear corner into the side wall and drive some bars into the holes with a steel plate against the rear corner wall. The outer surface will be ultimately finished with brick. My concern is that over time this could continue to separate. There isn't a bulge anywhere currently but there is separation on the wall at this time. Any recommendations? If you had to "fix" this, what would you do? Thanks in advance. Sorry to hijack the thread and with a long post to boot. Robert frankg wrote in message . .. On 4 Oct 2003 07:47:40 -0700, (Zhixin Tang) wrote: Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom In my opinion, 1/8 inch settlement in 2 months is too much too soon. I suggest for peace of mind, hire your own structural engineer (your cost) to inspect it independent from the first report to see if the results are similar or not. Or if you just don't feel comfortable with this project, don't buy it. Hopefully you won't lose any money but if you do, it may be a lot less than if you make the purchase and have to either repair the damage at your cost or sell a house with a foundation problem at a probable loss in value. |
#33
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Hello, I have a similar problem with my new house under construction
and would like advice on how something like this is "fixed." The preliminary: The footer in the house is something like 18" deep and about 12-15" wide. After that hardened, the builder placed hollow, concrete cinder blocks (this is common practice in this area - about 8-9" x 12-14") to form the walls. In between each row of block is a long piece of some metal grid or rebar-like material placed in the mortar running horizontally. These walls are about 2 ft (2 blocks) tall in the front and 6-9 feet tall in the rear corners. About 3/8-1/2" rebar was placed vertically in the walls about every 2 feet all the way around with each rebar extending about 2-3 feet above the top of the wall. These cinder blocks were then poured solid with concrete. Now the problem: The concrete-filled walls sat about a week. Lots of rain on and off while many loads of dirt were brought to the site. Over the course of two days, the dirt was backfilled into the structure. No problem at first, but at the end of day while the track-hoe was smoothing the top and packing the dirt a vertical crack developed in the corner of the wall running perfectly vertical (not following the seams of the blocks). The track-hoe was only a couple of feet from the corner when this occurred. The crack begins actually on the side of the structure but at the rear corner about 1 block width from the rear corner. It is about 1/2-5/8" at the top and gets smaller at the bottom. It doesn't totally reach the bottom and tapers to a hair-line fracture at the 2nd block from the bottom. It does appear to go all the way through the wall. The builder is not playing it off. He is upset and consulted an engineer (?) who hasn't looked at the foundation, but told the builder it should be fine. The idea is that with the rebar in the walls bent over and tieing the walls into the soon-to-be poured floor and the metal grid-work running horizontally in between each row of block, it should be ok. I am assuming some type of "filler" will be used as well to seal the crack. Further, the builder intends to drill 6 holes 16" deep and 5/8" in diameter through the rear corner into the side wall and drive some bars into the holes with a steel plate against the rear corner wall. The outer surface will be ultimately finished with brick. My concern is that over time this could continue to separate. There isn't a bulge anywhere currently but there is separation on the wall at this time. Any recommendations? If you had to "fix" this, what would you do? Thanks in advance. Sorry to hijack the thread and with a long post to boot. Robert frankg wrote in message . .. On 4 Oct 2003 07:47:40 -0700, (Zhixin Tang) wrote: Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom In my opinion, 1/8 inch settlement in 2 months is too much too soon. I suggest for peace of mind, hire your own structural engineer (your cost) to inspect it independent from the first report to see if the results are similar or not. Or if you just don't feel comfortable with this project, don't buy it. Hopefully you won't lose any money but if you do, it may be a lot less than if you make the purchase and have to either repair the damage at your cost or sell a house with a foundation problem at a probable loss in value. |
#34
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
snip
The builder is not playing it off. He is upset and consulted an engineer (?) who hasn't looked at the foundation, but told the builder it should be fine. I think the above is the key...the builder isn't happy with it and is willing to solve the problem. If he consults an engineer for the solution, then you should be in good shape. Of course, you're free to hire your own engineer...but realize that the builder is acting in very good faith to resolve the problem. I might ask for the opinion of the engineer, in writing (and possibly sealed) to have in my files for the house, just in case, though. P |
#35
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
snip
The builder is not playing it off. He is upset and consulted an engineer (?) who hasn't looked at the foundation, but told the builder it should be fine. I think the above is the key...the builder isn't happy with it and is willing to solve the problem. If he consults an engineer for the solution, then you should be in good shape. Of course, you're free to hire your own engineer...but realize that the builder is acting in very good faith to resolve the problem. I might ask for the opinion of the engineer, in writing (and possibly sealed) to have in my files for the house, just in case, though. P |
#36
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
A vertical crack in a masonry wall sounds more serious than a crack in
a concrete wall Is the wall bowed in at the top? It sounds like too much pressure during the backfilling operation either from equipment or from excess moisture in the soil. The big issues IMHO are structural integrity and water/damp proof of the wall. Epoxy injection won't do much for the CMU wall the way it would with a concrete wall. What remedies does your builder suggest? #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) Freezeman wrote: Hello, I have a similar problem with my new house under construction and would like advice on how something like this is "fixed." The preliminary: The footer in the house is something like 18" deep and about 12-15" wide. After that hardened, the builder placed hollow, concrete cinder blocks (this is common practice in this area - about 8-9" x 12-14") to form the walls. In between each row of block is a long piece of some metal grid or rebar-like material placed in the mortar running horizontally. These walls are about 2 ft (2 blocks) tall in the front and 6-9 feet tall in the rear corners. About 3/8-1/2" rebar was placed vertically in the walls about every 2 feet all the way around with each rebar extending about 2-3 feet above the top of the wall. These cinder blocks were then poured solid with concrete. Now the problem: The concrete-filled walls sat about a week. Lots of rain on and off while many loads of dirt were brought to the site. Over the course of two days, the dirt was backfilled into the structure. No problem at first, but at the end of day while the track-hoe was smoothing the top and packing the dirt a vertical crack developed in the corner of the wall running perfectly vertical (not following the seams of the blocks). The track-hoe was only a couple of feet from the corner when this occurred. The crack begins actually on the side of the structure but at the rear corner about 1 block width from the rear corner. It is about 1/2-5/8" at the top and gets smaller at the bottom. It doesn't totally reach the bottom and tapers to a hair-line fracture at the 2nd block from the bottom. It does appear to go all the way through the wall. The builder is not playing it off. He is upset and consulted an engineer (?) who hasn't looked at the foundation, but told the builder it should be fine. The idea is that with the rebar in the walls bent over and tieing the walls into the soon-to-be poured floor and the metal grid-work running horizontally in between each row of block, it should be ok. I am assuming some type of "filler" will be used as well to seal the crack. Further, the builder intends to drill 6 holes 16" deep and 5/8" in diameter through the rear corner into the side wall and drive some bars into the holes with a steel plate against the rear corner wall. The outer surface will be ultimately finished with brick. My concern is that over time this could continue to separate. There isn't a bulge anywhere currently but there is separation on the wall at this time. Any recommendations? If you had to "fix" this, what would you do? Thanks in advance. Sorry to hijack the thread and with a long post to boot. Robert frankg wrote in message . .. On 4 Oct 2003 07:47:40 -0700, (Zhixin Tang) wrote: Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom In my opinion, 1/8 inch settlement in 2 months is too much too soon. I suggest for peace of mind, hire your own structural engineer (your cost) to inspect it independent from the first report to see if the results are similar or not. Or if you just don't feel comfortable with this project, don't buy it. Hopefully you won't lose any money but if you do, it may be a lot less than if you make the purchase and have to either repair the damage at your cost or sell a house with a foundation problem at a probable loss in value. |
#37
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
A vertical crack in a masonry wall sounds more serious than a crack in
a concrete wall Is the wall bowed in at the top? It sounds like too much pressure during the backfilling operation either from equipment or from excess moisture in the soil. The big issues IMHO are structural integrity and water/damp proof of the wall. Epoxy injection won't do much for the CMU wall the way it would with a concrete wall. What remedies does your builder suggest? #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) Freezeman wrote: Hello, I have a similar problem with my new house under construction and would like advice on how something like this is "fixed." The preliminary: The footer in the house is something like 18" deep and about 12-15" wide. After that hardened, the builder placed hollow, concrete cinder blocks (this is common practice in this area - about 8-9" x 12-14") to form the walls. In between each row of block is a long piece of some metal grid or rebar-like material placed in the mortar running horizontally. These walls are about 2 ft (2 blocks) tall in the front and 6-9 feet tall in the rear corners. About 3/8-1/2" rebar was placed vertically in the walls about every 2 feet all the way around with each rebar extending about 2-3 feet above the top of the wall. These cinder blocks were then poured solid with concrete. Now the problem: The concrete-filled walls sat about a week. Lots of rain on and off while many loads of dirt were brought to the site. Over the course of two days, the dirt was backfilled into the structure. No problem at first, but at the end of day while the track-hoe was smoothing the top and packing the dirt a vertical crack developed in the corner of the wall running perfectly vertical (not following the seams of the blocks). The track-hoe was only a couple of feet from the corner when this occurred. The crack begins actually on the side of the structure but at the rear corner about 1 block width from the rear corner. It is about 1/2-5/8" at the top and gets smaller at the bottom. It doesn't totally reach the bottom and tapers to a hair-line fracture at the 2nd block from the bottom. It does appear to go all the way through the wall. The builder is not playing it off. He is upset and consulted an engineer (?) who hasn't looked at the foundation, but told the builder it should be fine. The idea is that with the rebar in the walls bent over and tieing the walls into the soon-to-be poured floor and the metal grid-work running horizontally in between each row of block, it should be ok. I am assuming some type of "filler" will be used as well to seal the crack. Further, the builder intends to drill 6 holes 16" deep and 5/8" in diameter through the rear corner into the side wall and drive some bars into the holes with a steel plate against the rear corner wall. The outer surface will be ultimately finished with brick. My concern is that over time this could continue to separate. There isn't a bulge anywhere currently but there is separation on the wall at this time. Any recommendations? If you had to "fix" this, what would you do? Thanks in advance. Sorry to hijack the thread and with a long post to boot. Robert frankg wrote in message . .. On 4 Oct 2003 07:47:40 -0700, (Zhixin Tang) wrote: Hi, I found out there is a vertical crack on the foundation wall (poured concrete) all the way from ceiling to floor. It is on the 40' foundation wall, in the middle of garage, close to steel pieces in the concrete, about 1/8" wide. The foundation is only 2 months old and the house is close to completion. I think one wall is settling down more to cause the crack. I am afraid that the crack will become bigger when settling continues. Is not rare for a 2-month foundation has such a long and wide crack? I am currently requesting the builder to hire a structural engineer to assess the problem. Since the house has been closed, I may have to option to walk away if it is a serious foundation problem. Folks, I would appreciate your advice on this problem. Also if I do accept the home, I have to disclose the problem when I sell the house in the future? Thanks. Tom In my opinion, 1/8 inch settlement in 2 months is too much too soon. I suggest for peace of mind, hire your own structural engineer (your cost) to inspect it independent from the first report to see if the results are similar or not. Or if you just don't feel comfortable with this project, don't buy it. Hopefully you won't lose any money but if you do, it may be a lot less than if you make the purchase and have to either repair the damage at your cost or sell a house with a foundation problem at a probable loss in value. |
#38
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Dan,
The crack is in a corner of the concrete wall along the side and about 8 inches from the rear wall. He is suggesting drilling about 6 holes from the rear wall through the corner and into the side all. The holes are 16inches deep and 5/8inches in diameter. Then some type of anchors are driven into the holes with a steel plate up against the rear wall. Will something like this do anything to support the structure? That was my reason for posting was to get suggestions about a possible fix. The builder also thinks that the rebar used in the vertical wall that is extending about 2feet above the wall will help tie the wall the slab when it is bent over and the slab is poured. Any ideas? Robert "Dan G" wrote in message .. . A vertical crack in a masonry wall sounds more serious than a crack in a concrete wall Is the wall bowed in at the top? It sounds like too much pressure during the backfilling operation either from equipment or from excess moisture in the soil. The big issues IMHO are structural integrity and water/damp proof of the wall. Epoxy injection won't do much for the CMU wall the way it would with a concrete wall. What remedies does your builder suggest? #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) |
#39
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
Dan,
The crack is in a corner of the concrete wall along the side and about 8 inches from the rear wall. He is suggesting drilling about 6 holes from the rear wall through the corner and into the side all. The holes are 16inches deep and 5/8inches in diameter. Then some type of anchors are driven into the holes with a steel plate up against the rear wall. Will something like this do anything to support the structure? That was my reason for posting was to get suggestions about a possible fix. The builder also thinks that the rebar used in the vertical wall that is extending about 2feet above the wall will help tie the wall the slab when it is bent over and the slab is poured. Any ideas? Robert "Dan G" wrote in message .. . A vertical crack in a masonry wall sounds more serious than a crack in a concrete wall Is the wall bowed in at the top? It sounds like too much pressure during the backfilling operation either from equipment or from excess moisture in the soil. The big issues IMHO are structural integrity and water/damp proof of the wall. Epoxy injection won't do much for the CMU wall the way it would with a concrete wall. What remedies does your builder suggest? #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) |
#40
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HELP: vertical foundation crack in new construction
I believe you said you have a block foundation as opposed to a cast in
place concrete wall. Jargon in the trade would call yours a block or CMU (Concrete/cementitious Masonry Units) as opposed to CIP concrete wall. I am not in a position to tell you what will work, especially as I have not seen it. I can offer some ideas to consider. I gather that the top of the wall is still accessible. Did the footing break and go down leaving a wider crack at the top than at the bottom? or did the wall get pushed in causing a bigger crack at the top? If it was pushed in, has it been pushed back out? If the footing has been broken, I would suggest tearing the corner down, reinforce the footing, and relay the corner. If the wall moved slightly from backfilling pressure, I would excavate the corner to push the wall back into line. I must say it sounds unusual to me for the wall to fail close to the corner, rather than out at mid wall. I would take a hammer drill with a very small bit (1/4") and test vertical cells to verify which ones are filled. You will need to test at least high, medium, low in every vertical line of cells near the failure. If there are any with voids in the filling of the cells, I would make sure to have them at least grout injected, preferably vibrated full of 3/8ths chip mix real concrete. I think the dowels that are being proposed should maybe be longer to get from the good corner well past the break into a portion of the side wall that did not move or fail. I would expect the pins to be epoxied. I agree that a poured floor holding the tops of the walls will strengthen the situation substantially. The damp proofing will need to be reapplied. I would ask for some form of guaranty based on continued failure, crack increasing, etc for a set term, perhaps 2 years, with a healthy clause about excavation and remedy. It sounds as if your builder wants to work with you. I think both of you should split the cost of having a structural engineer assess and recommend the repair method for each other's protection and continued ability to work together. #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) "Freezeman" wrote in message om... Dan, The crack is in a corner of the concrete wall along the side and about 8 inches from the rear wall. He is suggesting drilling about 6 holes from the rear wall through the corner and into the side all. The holes are 16inches deep and 5/8inches in diameter. Then some type of anchors are driven into the holes with a steel plate up against the rear wall. Will something like this do anything to support the structure? That was my reason for posting was to get suggestions about a possible fix. The builder also thinks that the rebar used in the vertical wall that is extending about 2feet above the wall will help tie the wall the slab when it is bent over and the slab is poured. Any ideas? Robert "Dan G" wrote in message .. . A vertical crack in a masonry wall sounds more serious than a crack in a concrete wall Is the wall bowed in at the top? It sounds like too much pressure during the backfilling operation either from equipment or from excess moisture in the soil. The big issues IMHO are structural integrity and water/damp proof of the wall. Epoxy injection won't do much for the CMU wall the way it would with a concrete wall. What remedies does your builder suggest? #################### Keep the whole world singing. . . Dan G (remove the 7) |
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