After living for years in a city and taking clean water for granted, we
recently moved into our first rural home and have been struggling with
problems involving iron and yellow coloured water ever since we got here.
It's esthetically very unpleasant and it stains our clothes.

Finding the source of the problem and a reasonably priced solution has been
a real puzzle. We still haven't solved it.

We had a very comprehensive test done of the water in the shallow well (18
feet deep and 4 feet in diameter) before we moved into the house, as well as
several times after we moved in. Everything appeared to be within the
drinking water guidelines except for high iron and manganese levels. The
PH and tannin-lignins readings were within the guidelines, but are of
potential concern as well.

iron 0.5, 1.4 and 1.6 mg/L measurements (at various times) - guideline is
0.3 mg/L
ph 6.62
tannins & Lignins 0.2 mg/L - guideline is 0.4 mg/L or less
manganese 0.67 mg/L - guideline is 0.4 mg/L

There was an old Manganese Greensand filter in the basement when we arrived.
We were told that this would get rid of the iron (which we presumed at the
time was the cause of the yellow water). It was in bad condition, so we had
a complete replacement installed for $1600 including installation (We kept
and reused the empty tank from the old installation. Everything else was
new) .

This didn't work. A new test showed there was as much iron as before and
the water stayed just as yellow.

We ran the filter for several months in this situation until we were finally
told that the cause of the problem was that manganese greensand filters need
a ph of greater than 6.8. While some internet sites indicated that the
filter would work at a lower ph than 6.6, the minimum figure of 6.8 was
specified in the instruction manual for the filter.

After a couple of months we found a reliable soda ash (sodium carbonate)
system which raised the ph to between 7.3 and 7.6 and had that installed for
another $1000. including installation.

Unfortunately, the water stayed yellow and the iron level stayed high.

We had the manganese greensand filter tested several times to make sure
there wasn't a malfunction. While we couldn't see inside the unit to make
certain nothing had been improperly installed, everything seemed to be
working according to the user's manual.

Hair pulling time.

After some research on the internet, I found some sites which referred to
"Brown Algae" which can grow in the dark in nutrient-rich wells. Our well,
for some reason, has a high coliform content (not fecal coliform though -
which is below the measurable limit, and we have a UV filter to sterilize
the water). Recently, I saw a small fibrous plant of some kind floating
just below the surface of the well. Does that mean the yellow is caused by
Brown Algae? Even if that's true, why won't the Manganese Greensand filter
remove the iron? Does the algae (if it's there) somehow prevent the filter
from working properly?

We then put high concentrations of household chlorine bleach in the well on
three separate occasions to kill any algae or other growth.

That seemed to work each time when the water went clear for a day or so.
Then the water returned to its normal disgusting yellow colour. The iron
level remained high when we next measured it.

The supplier of our Manganese Greensand filter has now begun to suggest that
our problem might be caused by Tannin Lignins. After some research on the
internet, I found several websites which referred to "Heme Iron", which
apparently is iron bound up in a complex with molecules from decayed
vegetation. Apparently, this can cause a yellow colour, somewhat like the
colour of weak tea.

The measured level of the tannin lignins in our water is below the drinking
water guideline level. Does that mean that tannin lignins could not be the
cause of the yellow water? Could even a small concentration of tannin
lignins somehow prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from working to
remove the iron?

Some other sites on the internet suggested that, over time, acidic water
would eat away the Manganese Dioxide coating on the Manganese Greensand
Filter media (i.e. on the Manganese Greensand "sand" filter media), thereby
rendering it useless. Since we ran the filter for several months in water
with a ph of 6.62 (slightly acidic), could that conceivably be the cause?

In summary, the yellow colour and high iron content in the water could
potentially be due to a poorly installed Manganese Greensand filter, or the
adverse affects of tannin lignins on the Manganese Greensand filter, or the
adverse affects of brown algae on the filter, or the presence of Heme Iron,
or the effects of slightly acidic water eating away the coating on the
Greensand media.

More hair pulling time.

I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.

Anyone have any ideas?

Peter

--
TO REPLY REMOVE THE WORDS "SPAMFREE" FROM THE RETURN ADDRESS

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:02:50 GMT, "Peter Martin" wrote:
I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.

Anyone have any ideas?

Well, first I'd say that you have to realize that the drinking water guidelines
are just a measure of whether the water is safe for human consumption. They
don't mean you'll have clean, clear, mineral free water. Frankly, all throughout
reading your tale of woe, the words "deep bored well" kept drifting through my
mind.

I'm not too keen on shallow wells. The water doesn't receive enough natural
filtration to suit me. Deep water usually (not always) means clean water. My
water here comes from a 180 foot bored well. The water is clean, clear, and
cold. There is also a shallow dug well on the property, and while it never lacks
for water, the water is, well the best word is "icky". I wouldn't drink it even though
the health department says it is safe.

Gary

(Peter Martin) writes:

After living for years in a city and taking clean water for granted, we
recently moved into our first rural home and have been struggling with
problems involving iron and yellow coloured water ever since we got here.
It's esthetically very unpleasant and it stains our clothes.

What is your household plumbing like? Is the pipe old decayed iron pipe
and the water heater set to 120 degrees or less and not tapped for
sediment very often? What is the

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"Gary Coffman" wrote
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:02:50 GMT, "Peter Martin"
wrote:
I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.

Anyone have any ideas?

Well, first I'd say that you have to realize that the drinking water
guidelines
are just a measure of whether the water is safe for human consumption.
They
don't mean you'll have clean, clear, mineral free water. Frankly, all
throughout
reading your tale of woe, the words "deep bored well" kept drifting
through my
mind.

I'm not too keen on shallow wells. The water doesn't receive enough
natural
filtration to suit me. Deep water usually (not always) means clean
water. My
water here comes from a 180 foot bored well. The water is clean,
clear, and
cold. There is also a shallow dug well on the property, and while it
never lacks
for water, the water is, well the best word is "icky". I wouldn't
drink it even though
the health department says it is safe.

Gary

Actually everything we pour on or bury in the ground, comes up later in
water somewhere. That makes the earth more like a sponge than filter.
And it's only been in the last 25 to 30 years that we finally realized
that the ground only filters stones and such, not liquids etc.. Those
things found in water that will harm us are all tasteless, colorless and
odorless... You can't know if they are present without specific water
analysis for them.

The deepest well I've worked on is 605' deep and was only two months
old. One of the problems was coliform bacteria and the month old baby
boy was sick. We also now know that bacteria is everywhere we look
except in space. We can't live with certain types of bacteria, but we
die without certain types too and all waters have some bacteria in
varying amounts until it is treated. The best water man can make is
deionized water and H2O (only) doesn't exist anywhere in nature. In many
areas, they don't call 180+ deep, our average well here is about 150'.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

I very much appreciate your comments.

I've thought about having a deep well dug. Unfortunately, several of the
deep wells dug in the area by my neighbours have produced water containing
high levels of arsenic. There's no measurable arsenic in the shallow well
that I currently have. While a new, deep well might not contain arsenic, it
would still be a gamble.

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TO REPLY REMOVE THE WORDS "SPAMFREE" FROM THE RETURN ADDRESS
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:02:50 GMT, "Peter Martin"
wrote:
I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.

Anyone have any ideas?

Well, first I'd say that you have to realize that the drinking water
guidelines
are just a measure of whether the water is safe for human consumption.
They
don't mean you'll have clean, clear, mineral free water. Frankly, all
throughout
reading your tale of woe, the words "deep bored well" kept drifting
through my
mind.

I'm not too keen on shallow wells. The water doesn't receive enough
natural
filtration to suit me. Deep water usually (not always) means clean water.
My
water here comes from a 180 foot bored well. The water is clean, clear,
and
cold. There is also a shallow dug well on the property, and while it never
lacks
for water, the water is, well the best word is "icky". I wouldn't drink it
even though
the health department says it is safe.

Gary

"Peter Martin" wrote
I very much appreciate your comments.

I've thought about having a deep well dug. Unfortunately, several of
the
deep wells dug in the area by my neighbours have produced water
containing
high levels of arsenic. There's no measurable arsenic in the shallow
well
that I currently have. While a new, deep well might not contain
arsenic, it
would still be a gamble.

--
TO REPLY REMOVE THE WORDS "SPAMFREE" FROM THE RETURN ADDRESS
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:02:50 GMT, "Peter Martin"
wrote:
I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.

Anyone have any ideas?

Well, first I'd say that you have to realize that the drinking water
guidelines
are just a measure of whether the water is safe for human
consumption.
They
don't mean you'll have clean, clear, mineral free water. Frankly,
all
throughout
reading your tale of woe, the words "deep bored well" kept drifting
through my
mind.

I'm not too keen on shallow wells. The water doesn't receive enough
natural
filtration to suit me. Deep water usually (not always) means clean
water.
My
water here comes from a 180 foot bored well. The water is clean,
clear,
and
cold. There is also a shallow dug well on the property, and while it
never
lacks
for water, the water is, well the best word is "icky". I wouldn't
drink it
even though
the health department says it is safe.

Gary

While I rarely suggest a new well.... if you drilled one and got rid of
the problems with the present very shallow well, you could treat the
arsenic very affordably and easily and have a much easier time than you
are currently. Some folks believe that 'city' water doesn't have the
same type of problems, or that 'city' water isn't treated for various
health related parameters, not true. Most water companies in the US are
now using some wells as their water sources.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...

Assuming your problems are not caused by rusting galvanized etc.
plumbing and/or fittings past the water treatment equipment, ....

All the plumbing in the house after the Managanese Greensand Filter is
copper pipe.

Do you have a properly sized retention tank so the soda ash has
the correct length of time to work?

The solution feeder is installed between the pump in the well and the
pressure tank which is located in a small concrete room immediately above
the well. I was told by the manufacturer of the solution feeder that the
time that the freshly pumped water spends in the pressure tank would be
enough to do the trick and that a separate retention tank would not be
necessary. When I measure the ph level in the water at the faucet inside
the house, the ph level doesn't seem to fluctuate, so that until now my
assumption has been the soda ash system is working properly.

Why aren't you feeding chlorine (too) to treat the tannin, bacteria and
iron?

To be honest, I hadn't thought about feeding chlorine into the water. Also
I'm very much a neophyte with this entire subject, still trying to learn
everything that I can find. If chlorine were added into the soda ash
solution feeder, and then injected into the water being pumped from the
well, presumably it would have to be extracted at a later stage before it
reached the faucets in the house. Would that best be done with an
activated charcoal filter?

While I understand that the chlorine would presumably kill iron bacteria,
how would it help reduce the tannin and iron levels in the water?

You should learn about well cleaning and apply all you can from
what you read to your well.

Thank you for the advice. I will look into this subject.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:20:43 GMT, "Peter Martin" wrote:
I've thought about having a deep well dug. Unfortunately, several of the
deep wells dug in the area by my neighbours have produced water containing
high levels of arsenic. There's no measurable arsenic in the shallow well
that I currently have. While a new, deep well might not contain arsenic, it
would still be a gamble.

Drilling a well is always a gamble. But you can be pretty sure you won't have
large amounts of tannin/lignin in a deep well. Arsenic is treatable, and a little
even makes your coat shiney. :-)

Gary

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...

Gary,
First of all welcome to the group. Secondly please snip the preceding
message instead of repeating it in its entirety

Gary Slusser wrote:

"beachcooler" wrote

The yellow color is tannins. Water filters are available at home depot
or Lowes
to remove them. They are prevalent in my area, especially with shallow
wells.
Manganese usually colors fixtures and clothes with a greenish tint,
iron turns
things brown, and tannins only color the water but may tinge some
clothing,
especially cotton. The UV is an excellent choice. I would install a
sediment
filter first and a carbon filter after. Should do the trick for about
50 bucks.

Tannins are dissolved in the water and I know of no filter in any big
box store that will remove/reduce true tannins. If those filters are
reducing or removing something, it is particles, commonly called
sediment.

Manganese causes black particles and stains and IIRC can create gray
water albeit rarely. Greenish and green/blue stains is copper. Ferric
iron (insoluble/red water iron) is tan/yellow to rusty reddish dark
brown toward black. Ferrous iron (soluble clear water iron) is dissolved
into the water and can't be seen; neither can heme and organic iron.
Colloidal iron is like tannin but in some cases can be mechanically
filtered if the particles are heavy enough, sometimes not. Carbon is
only to be used on microbiologically safe water (no bacteria) and not a
good choice for ferrous (soluble) iron problems; it goes right through
sediment and carbon filters. UV is only to be used on clear water that
does not contain anything, or enough of it, that will cause a film or
residue on the quartz sleeve that prevents the transmittance of the
invisible light into and through the water being treated. You only get
what you pay for comes to mind...

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Geee, I'll have to tell all those folks here with the carbon filters on
their irrigation wells that they really don't remove the tannins....

"Michael" wrote

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...

Gary,
First of all welcome to the group. Secondly please snip the preceding
message instead of repeating it in its entirety

Hi Mike,

I see you must be in rural.misc, otherwise you'd have been reading my
posts in alt.home.repair and other groups since early 1997. Or you must
be new here or I would have read your posts in my groups. So I'll
welcome to you too.

Many people search for my posts, so I leave what I am replying to so
they and others can learn without constantly going from one post to
another. I find many posters asking for help or in understanding their
water quality problems to be a bit limited in knowing what to ask or
offer in regards to detail so how do you propose I answer what hasn't
been asked if I snip what they have said? It also prevents me from
having to go from one post to the previous posts or when I get e-mail
including my reply. I get quite a bit of e-mail and it takes more time
to reply if things are hacked up to the point where I have to
familiarize myself with the person's problem by looking up newsgroup
posts. So I'm sorry if my nonsnipped replies disturb you but it doesn't
seem you're much interested in my replies so could you please skip over
them.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"beachcooler" wrote
Gary Slusser wrote:

"beachcooler" wrote

The yellow color is tannins. Water filters are available at home
depot
or Lowes
to remove them. They are prevalent in my area, especially with
shallow
wells.
Manganese usually colors fixtures and clothes with a greenish
tint,
iron turns
things brown, and tannins only color the water but may tinge some
clothing,
especially cotton. The UV is an excellent choice. I would install
a
sediment
filter first and a carbon filter after. Should do the trick for
about
50 bucks.

Tannins are dissolved in the water and I know of no filter in any
big
box store that will remove/reduce true tannins. If those filters are
reducing or removing something, it is particles, commonly called
sediment.

Manganese causes black particles and stains and IIRC can create gray
water albeit rarely. Greenish and green/blue stains is copper.
Ferric
iron (insoluble/red water iron) is tan/yellow to rusty reddish dark
brown toward black. Ferrous iron (soluble clear water iron) is
dissolved
into the water and can't be seen; neither can heme and organic iron.
Colloidal iron is like tannin but in some cases can be mechanically
filtered if the particles are heavy enough, sometimes not. Carbon is
only to be used on microbiologically safe water (no bacteria) and
not a
good choice for ferrous (soluble) iron problems; it goes right
through
sediment and carbon filters. UV is only to be used on clear water
that
does not contain anything, or enough of it, that will cause a film
or
residue on the quartz sleeve that prevents the transmittance of the
invisible light into and through the water being treated. You only
get
what you pay for comes to mind...

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Geee, I'll have to tell all those folks here with the carbon filters
on
their irrigation wells that they really don't remove the tannins....

Maybe they'd appreciate your input if it caused them to spend less money
on carbon. But first I think you need to know more about tannins, or I
do.

I've been the business of improving water quality, 99% on problem well
water BTW, for 15 years now. Admittedly I don't have much experience
with tannins but I'll give you a few sources of what I know and you can
show me where you see anyone other than novices using carbon for what
they obviously are mistakenly calling a tannin problem in their well
water.

Here's a google search for "tannin removal" with 280 hits. I doubt you
can find anyone proposing mechanical filtration (the trapping of
particles) for a tannin problem. Carbon absorbs and adsorbs while
trapping some particulates; true tannins are dissolved into the water on
the ion level and no mechanical filter will remove ions. And Lowes etc.
doesn't sell specialty resin cartridges (tannin specific anion resin)
that could.
http://tinyurl.com/h3vk

And it was you that said "tannins only color the water ".....So tell me,
why would anyone filter tannins from irrigation water? That seems to say
they are filtering IRON/rust that stains things tan to orangish reddish
brown. You were right, tannins cause discolored water, not surface
staining problems. Here's another google search for tannins + staining
with 2200+ hits and although I didn't look all that hard, I didn't see
where tannin in water causes surface staining when water containing them
is allowed to evaporate.
http://tinyurl.com/h49f

Now you should be ready to go help those carbon filter guys.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

(Gary Coffman) wrote in
:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:02:50 GMT, "Peter Martin"
wrote:
I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.

Anyone have any ideas?

Well, first I'd say that you have to realize that the drinking water
guidelines are just a measure of whether the water is safe for human
consumption. They don't mean you'll have clean, clear, mineral free
water. Frankly, all throughout reading your tale of woe, the words
"deep bored well" kept drifting through my mind.

I'm not too keen on shallow wells. The water doesn't receive enough
natural filtration to suit me. Deep water usually (not always) means
clean water. My water here comes from a 180 foot bored well. The water
is clean, clear, and cold. There is also a shallow dug well on the
property, and while it never lacks for water, the water is, well the
best word is "icky". I wouldn't drink it even though the health
department says it is safe.

i have the opposite. my dug well is great & my 185' drilled well is high
in iron and manganese & tastes nasty, even with a filter system i
drink from the dug well & water the gardens with the drilled well. the
sulpher/iron stink isn't so bad outdoors.
lee
--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)

"Gary Slusser" wrote in
:

Hopefully you two do at least 6 month to annual water quality testing
on all of your wells. The shallow wells should have pesticide,
herbicide, nitrate, nitrite and bacteria tests done.

i do annual tests. i have a 3 year old & livestock drinking that water.
although no one around uses herbicides, it's part of the water test...
which is really pretty inexpensive.
lee
--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)

Are you doing this yourself or do you have a water treatment dealer
involved?

I live in a small town of about 20,000 and there is only a very limited
amount of experience in this area. The nearest large city (Vancouver) is
about 6 hours away by car. At the moment, I'm working through a local sales
representative who, in turn, calls his water treatment dealer in the
Vancouver. The water treatment dealer won't discuss the problem directly
with me - only with the local sales representative. Apart from trying to
learn as much as I can by researching the problem on my own, I'm sticking
with the local sales representative because, at the moment, he is continuing
to work with me at minimal cost to try to solve the problem of why the
Manganese Greensand filter I purchased from him isn't removing the iron in
the water.

Many folks mistakenly call other problems
(mostly iron related) 'tannins' but since you have a tannin test result
(IIRC), you need to treat for them but... You need the other stuff
removed first or you won't be successful.

That's the general approach I'm trying to take right now - i.e. trying to
remove the iron and manganese. According to the tests I've had done, the
only contaminants in the water which exceed the drinking water guidelines
are iron (1.4 mg/L, guideline is 0.3)), manganese and coliform (not fecal
coliform, which was found to be below the measurable limit). The level of
manganese varies from 0.67 mg/L to 0.019 mg/L (results from two different
laboratories). The level of tannins/lignins in the water (measured at 0.2
mg/L and 0.3 mg/L)are below the drinking water guidelines of 0.4 mg/L. My
assumption is that the high coliform level is caused by nutrients in the
water from decayed vegetation (leaves etc from the surrounding bush) and
that the tannins-lignins are also a result of the decayed vegetation.

What I really don't understand is why the Manganese Greensand filter is not
removing the iron. I'm suspicious that, either the tubing inside the filter
was poorly installed (by the local dealer) so that the water coming in from
the well is somehow bypassing the filter bed or, alternatively, that the
coating on the Greensand itself was eaten away and rendered useless during
the months that the filter was used in water with a ph of 6.6.

I wouldn't think that the low level of tannins-lignins in the water would
prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from functioning properly, but then
I've had very little experience in this regard.

This weekend, the local dealer removed the filter and will install it for a
few days at his own home, in place of his own Manganese Greensand filter
which he says is working properly. Reportedly, his water also has been
tested and found to have iron and tannins in the water. I'm anxiously
waiting to see what happens.

I suggest a dealer familiar with tannin removal in your area. Tannin
treatment success varies from one well to another and one area to another.
Frankly, they're a bitch.

Finding someone with experience with tannins will be my next step if the
water continues to remain yellow after the iron has been removed.

Here's a google search for "tannin removal" (with the quotes):
http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
If you need other equipment, give me the opportunity to give you a
quote. I'm sure you'd appreciate my prices.

Thank you.

"Peter Martin" wrote

Are you doing this yourself or do you have a water treatment dealer
involved?

I live in a small town of about 20,000 and there is only a very
limited
amount of experience in this area. The nearest large city (Vancouver)
is
about 6 hours away by car. At the moment, I'm working through a local
sales
representative who, in turn, calls his water treatment dealer in the
Vancouver. The water treatment dealer won't discuss the problem
directly
with me - only with the local sales representative. Apart from trying
to
learn as much as I can by researching the problem on my own, I'm
sticking
with the local sales representative because, at the moment, he is
continuing
to work with me at minimal cost to try to solve the problem of why the
Manganese Greensand filter I purchased from him isn't removing the
iron in
the water.

I suspect he is the dealer and he's talking to his distributor. Problem
is he's charging you, and a little or a lot, you still have the problem
and he should be making it right at no charge.

Many folks mistakenly call other problems
(mostly iron related) 'tannins' but since you have a tannin test
result
(IIRC), you need to treat for them but... You need the other stuff
removed first or you won't be successful.

That's the general approach I'm trying to take right now - i.e.
trying to
remove the iron and manganese. According to the tests I've had done,
the
only contaminants in the water which exceed the drinking water
guidelines
are iron (1.4 mg/L, guideline is 0.3)), manganese and coliform (not
fecal
coliform, which was found to be below the measurable limit). The
level of
manganese varies from 0.67 mg/L to 0.019 mg/L (results from two
different
laboratories). The level of tannins/lignins in the water (measured at
0.2
mg/L and 0.3 mg/L)are below the drinking water guidelines of 0.4 mg/L.
My
assumption is that the high coliform level is caused by nutrients in
the
water from decayed vegetation (leaves etc from the surrounding bush)
and
that the tannins-lignins are also a result of the decayed vegetation.

You have to give up this idea that reduction to the acceptable limits is
your goal. Your goal is removal (zero), and if you don't remove the iron
and tannin you will still have colored water and iron staining. Staining
occurs with any amount of iron but usually you don't see it at less than
..3 ppm because you clean the surface the stain is on. Rust buildup in
the plumbing can add the levels of iron you have. Coliform is a group of
bacteria. They live in the ground and when found in our food or water,
indicate an environment conducive to their survival and the a high
probability of other bacteria, both harmful and nonharmful to humans.
Reducing type bacteria are a good possibility as to teh cause of the
greensand not working. Along with the low pH you had.

What I really don't understand is why the Manganese Greensand filter
is not
removing the iron. I'm suspicious that, either the tubing inside the
filter
was poorly installed (by the local dealer) so that the water coming in
from
the well is somehow bypassing the filter bed or, alternatively, that
the
coating on the Greensand itself was eaten away and rendered useless
during
the months that the filter was used in water with a ph of 6.6.


See above.

I wouldn't think that the low level of tannins-lignins in the water
would
prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from functioning properly, but
then
I've had very little experience in this regard.

This weekend, the local dealer removed the filter and will install it
for a
few days at his own home, in place of his own Manganese Greensand
filter
which he says is working properly. Reportedly, his water also has
been
tested and found to have iron and tannins in the water. I'm anxiously
waiting to see what happens.

That's dumb and a lot of work and effort for nothing IMO. His water is
not your water and what's he going to do if it works at his house? I
think he replaces the greensand at no charge and you start over.

I suggest a dealer familiar with tannin removal in your area. Tannin
treatment success varies from one well to another and one area to
another.
Frankly, they're a bitch.

Finding someone with experience with tannins will be my next step if
the
water continues to remain yellow after the iron has been removed.

Here's a google search for "tannin removal" (with the quotes):
http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
If you need other equipment, give me the opportunity to give you a
quote. I'm sure you'd appreciate my prices.

Thank you.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Hi Peter,
Just read about your water problems.
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)? Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?

Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well. It is hard to avoid having total
coliforms in shallow wells. A drilled well is inherently safer but
that may not solve your problem with coloured water.

I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well, or
only after being exposed to air?

Diagnosing a water problem from lab test results is a bit like a
doctor diagnosing an unseen patient using only blood test results.
One needs to see the whole patient to get a better idea of what is
going on.

I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.

You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
.

Regards,

Phil J.





"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...
"Peter Martin" wrote

Are you doing this yourself or do you have a water treatment dealer
involved?

I live in a small town of about 20,000 and there is only a very
limited
amount of experience in this area. The nearest large city (Vancouver)
is
about 6 hours away by car. At the moment, I'm working through a local
sales
representative who, in turn, calls his water treatment dealer in the
Vancouver. The water treatment dealer won't discuss the problem
directly
with me - only with the local sales representative. Apart from trying
to
learn as much as I can by researching the problem on my own, I'm
sticking
with the local sales representative because, at the moment, he is
continuing
to work with me at minimal cost to try to solve the problem of why the
Manganese Greensand filter I purchased from him isn't removing the
iron in
the water.

I suspect he is the dealer and he's talking to his distributor. Problem
is he's charging you, and a little or a lot, you still have the problem
and he should be making it right at no charge.

Many folks mistakenly call other problems
(mostly iron related) 'tannins' but since you have a tannin test
result
(IIRC), you need to treat for them but... You need the other stuff
removed first or you won't be successful.

That's the general approach I'm trying to take right now - i.e.
trying to
remove the iron and manganese. According to the tests I've had done,
the
only contaminants in the water which exceed the drinking water
guidelines
are iron (1.4 mg/L, guideline is 0.3)), manganese and coliform (not
fecal
coliform, which was found to be below the measurable limit). The
level of
manganese varies from 0.67 mg/L to 0.019 mg/L (results from two
different
laboratories). The level of tannins/lignins in the water (measured at
0.2
mg/L and 0.3 mg/L)are below the drinking water guidelines of 0.4 mg/L.
My
assumption is that the high coliform level is caused by nutrients in
the
water from decayed vegetation (leaves etc from the surrounding bush)
and
that the tannins-lignins are also a result of the decayed vegetation.

You have to give up this idea that reduction to the acceptable limits is
your goal. Your goal is removal (zero), and if you don't remove the iron
and tannin you will still have colored water and iron staining. Staining
occurs with any amount of iron but usually you don't see it at less than
.3 ppm because you clean the surface the stain is on. Rust buildup in
the plumbing can add the levels of iron you have. Coliform is a group of
bacteria. They live in the ground and when found in our food or water,
indicate an environment conducive to their survival and the a high
probability of other bacteria, both harmful and nonharmful to humans.
Reducing type bacteria are a good possibility as to teh cause of the
greensand not working. Along with the low pH you had.

What I really don't understand is why the Manganese Greensand filter
is not
removing the iron. I'm suspicious that, either the tubing inside the
filter
was poorly installed (by the local dealer) so that the water coming in
from
the well is somehow bypassing the filter bed or, alternatively, that
the
coating on the Greensand itself was eaten away and rendered useless
during
the months that the filter was used in water with a ph of 6.6.


See above.

I wouldn't think that the low level of tannins-lignins in the water
would
prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from functioning properly, but
then
I've had very little experience in this regard.

This weekend, the local dealer removed the filter and will install it
for a
few days at his own home, in place of his own Manganese Greensand
filter
which he says is working properly. Reportedly, his water also has
been
tested and found to have iron and tannins in the water. I'm anxiously
waiting to see what happens.

That's dumb and a lot of work and effort for nothing IMO. His water is
not your water and what's he going to do if it works at his house? I
think he replaces the greensand at no charge and you start over.

I suggest a dealer familiar with tannin removal in your area. Tannin
treatment success varies from one well to another and one area to
another.
Frankly, they're a bitch.

Finding someone with experience with tannins will be my next step if
the
water continues to remain yellow after the iron has been removed.

Here's a google search for "tannin removal" (with the quotes):
http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
If you need other equipment, give me the opportunity to give you a
quote. I'm sure you'd appreciate my prices.

Thank you.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Phil J" wrote
Hi Peter,
Just read about your water problems.
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)? Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?

Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well. It is hard to avoid having total
coliforms in shallow wells. A drilled well is inherently safer but
that may not solve your problem with coloured water.

I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well, or
only after being exposed to air?

Diagnosing a water problem from lab test results is a bit like a
doctor diagnosing an unseen patient using only blood test results.
One needs to see the whole patient to get a better idea of what is
going on.

I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.

You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
.

Regards,

Phil J.

Phil, since you haven't seen yellow water, or treated it, what free
advice could you give him if you were looking down 'n round his well,
especially without water analysis data? That would seem as if the doctor
was treating the patient without a blood test.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Peter Martin" wrote


"Phil J" wrote
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)?

The town is called Powell River, located on the coast due north of
Vancouver.

Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing
made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?

The well is located in the middle of a fairly large driveway which is
paved
with asphalt. On the "upslope" side of the driveway there is a 40
foot
lawn with fruit trees, then a hedge, then a paved rural road. On the
other
side of that there is another house with another lawn. Further up
from that
there is bush.

The casing is made of circular concrete rings, one on top of the
other.
Each ring is 4 feet in diameter and 2 feet high. There is a concrete
floor
at the top of the well, on which is mounted the pressure tank and the
electrical controls for the pump. There is a small square hole in
the
concrete floor, about 3 feet by 2 feet, covered with a stainless steel
plate
to provide access to the well itself. There are also concrete rings
above
this concrete floor. These rings form the circular wall of a small
room.
The "ceiling" of the room is made of concrete, with a stainless steel
plate
providing access from above.

As an aside, I've never seen nor taken samples from the bottom of the
well
and, although there is no direct evidence one way or the other, it's
possible there could be vegetation matter at the bottom of the well.
It
would be necessary to find and hire a contractor with specialized
equipment
to check the bottom of the well because of the small size of the
access
hole. This has not been done yet because, I have always assumed that
the
tannins came from decaying grass clippings from the lawns, and from
dead
leaves etc in the bush, and not from anything in the well itself.

Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well.

When we moved in, we noticed several small holes one inch in diameter
in the
side of the well, in the concrete rings, level with the asphalt. (The
concrete rings protrude above the level of the asphalt driveway.)
Some of
the run-off from the rain was running down the asphalt driveway and
getting
into the well through these holes. It had probably been that way for
years. We plugged the holes about 3 months ago.

I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so
am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well,
or
only after being exposed to air?

The water is yellow as soon as it comes out of the tap and stays that
way.
It does not change colour. There doesn't seem to be any iron
precipitating from the water.

I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
.

Thank you. I would very much appreciate any advice you could offer.
I
will probably send you an email in the near future, after more of this
continuing "saga" of water problems unfolds.

So Peter, I don't know where Phil is but we shouldn't wait any longer
for him because he may never return! lol

IMO you need a hydrocarbons scan and total iron test. This sounds like
colloidal iron to me although it could be tannin or lignin. Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

What type of pressure tank do you have?

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Peter Martin" wrote


"Phil J" wrote
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)?

The town is called Powell River, located on the coast due north of
Vancouver.

Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing
made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?

The well is located in the middle of a fairly large driveway which is
paved
with asphalt. On the "upslope" side of the driveway there is a 40
foot
lawn with fruit trees, then a hedge, then a paved rural road. On the
other
side of that there is another house with another lawn. Further up
from that
there is bush.

The casing is made of circular concrete rings, one on top of the
other.
Each ring is 4 feet in diameter and 2 feet high. There is a concrete
floor
at the top of the well, on which is mounted the pressure tank and the
electrical controls for the pump. There is a small square hole in
the
concrete floor, about 3 feet by 2 feet, covered with a stainless steel
plate
to provide access to the well itself. There are also concrete rings
above
this concrete floor. These rings form the circular wall of a small
room.
The "ceiling" of the room is made of concrete, with a stainless steel
plate
providing access from above.

As an aside, I've never seen nor taken samples from the bottom of the
well
and, although there is no direct evidence one way or the other, it's
possible there could be vegetation matter at the bottom of the well.
It
would be necessary to find and hire a contractor with specialized
equipment
to check the bottom of the well because of the small size of the
access
hole. This has not been done yet because, I have always assumed that
the
tannins came from decaying grass clippings from the lawns, and from
dead
leaves etc in the bush, and not from anything in the well itself.

Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well.

When we moved in, we noticed several small holes one inch in diameter
in the
side of the well, in the concrete rings, level with the asphalt. (The
concrete rings protrude above the level of the asphalt driveway.)
Some of
the run-off from the rain was running down the asphalt driveway and
getting
into the well through these holes. It had probably been that way for
years. We plugged the holes about 3 months ago.

I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so
am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well,
or
only after being exposed to air?

The water is yellow as soon as it comes out of the tap and stays that
way.
It does not change colour. There doesn't seem to be any iron
precipitating from the water.

I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
.

Thank you. I would very much appreciate any advice you could offer.
I
will probably send you an email in the near future, after more of this
continuing "saga" of water problems unfolds.

So Peter, I don't know where Phil is but we shouldn't wait any longer
for him because he may never return! lol

IMO you need a hydrocarbons scan and total iron test. This sounds like
colloidal iron to me although it could be tannin or lignin. Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

What type of pressure tank do you have?

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?

Gary
Quality Water Associates

I agree with the fellow who suggested adding a cap of bleach to a
gallon of water and waiting to see if the yellow disappears and a
precipitate forms. This would suggest to me that chlorination and
filtration could work for you.
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.

A couple of other suggestions:

If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Second suggestion:

Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it! In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells (not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.
Contact me at if you want to discuss.
Phil J.

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...
"Peter Martin" wrote


"Phil J" wrote
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)?

The town is called Powell River, located on the coast due north of
Vancouver.

Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing
made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?

The well is located in the middle of a fairly large driveway which is
paved
with asphalt. On the "upslope" side of the driveway there is a 40
foot
lawn with fruit trees, then a hedge, then a paved rural road. On the
other
side of that there is another house with another lawn. Further up
from that
there is bush.

The casing is made of circular concrete rings, one on top of the
other.
Each ring is 4 feet in diameter and 2 feet high. There is a concrete
floor
at the top of the well, on which is mounted the pressure tank and the
electrical controls for the pump. There is a small square hole in
the
concrete floor, about 3 feet by 2 feet, covered with a stainless steel
plate
to provide access to the well itself. There are also concrete rings
above
this concrete floor. These rings form the circular wall of a small
room.
The "ceiling" of the room is made of concrete, with a stainless steel
plate
providing access from above.

As an aside, I've never seen nor taken samples from the bottom of the
well
and, although there is no direct evidence one way or the other, it's
possible there could be vegetation matter at the bottom of the well.
It
would be necessary to find and hire a contractor with specialized
equipment
to check the bottom of the well because of the small size of the
access
hole. This has not been done yet because, I have always assumed that
the
tannins came from decaying grass clippings from the lawns, and from
dead
leaves etc in the bush, and not from anything in the well itself.

Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well.

When we moved in, we noticed several small holes one inch in diameter
in the
side of the well, in the concrete rings, level with the asphalt. (The
concrete rings protrude above the level of the asphalt driveway.)
Some of
the run-off from the rain was running down the asphalt driveway and
getting
into the well through these holes. It had probably been that way for
years. We plugged the holes about 3 months ago.

I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so
am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well,
or
only after being exposed to air?

The water is yellow as soon as it comes out of the tap and stays that
way.
It does not change colour. There doesn't seem to be any iron
precipitating from the water.

I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
.

Thank you. I would very much appreciate any advice you could offer.
I
will probably send you an email in the near future, after more of this
continuing "saga" of water problems unfolds.

So Peter, I don't know where Phil is but we shouldn't wait any longer
for him because he may never return! lol

IMO you need a hydrocarbons scan and total iron test. This sounds like
colloidal iron to me although it could be tannin or lignin. Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

What type of pressure tank do you have?

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?

Gary
Quality Water Associates

I agree with the fellow who suggested adding a cap of bleach to a
gallon of water and waiting to see if the yellow disappears and a
precipitate forms. This would suggest to me that chlorination and
filtration could work for you.
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.

A couple of other suggestions:

If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Second suggestion:

Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it! In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells (not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.
Contact me at if you want to discuss.
Phil J.

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...
"Peter Martin" wrote


"Phil J" wrote
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)?

The town is called Powell River, located on the coast due north of
Vancouver.

Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing
made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?

The well is located in the middle of a fairly large driveway which is
paved
with asphalt. On the "upslope" side of the driveway there is a 40
foot
lawn with fruit trees, then a hedge, then a paved rural road. On the
other
side of that there is another house with another lawn. Further up
from that
there is bush.

The casing is made of circular concrete rings, one on top of the
other.
Each ring is 4 feet in diameter and 2 feet high. There is a concrete
floor
at the top of the well, on which is mounted the pressure tank and the
electrical controls for the pump. There is a small square hole in
the
concrete floor, about 3 feet by 2 feet, covered with a stainless steel
plate
to provide access to the well itself. There are also concrete rings
above
this concrete floor. These rings form the circular wall of a small
room.
The "ceiling" of the room is made of concrete, with a stainless steel
plate
providing access from above.

As an aside, I've never seen nor taken samples from the bottom of the
well
and, although there is no direct evidence one way or the other, it's
possible there could be vegetation matter at the bottom of the well.
It
would be necessary to find and hire a contractor with specialized
equipment
to check the bottom of the well because of the small size of the
access
hole. This has not been done yet because, I have always assumed that
the
tannins came from decaying grass clippings from the lawns, and from
dead
leaves etc in the bush, and not from anything in the well itself.

Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well.

When we moved in, we noticed several small holes one inch in diameter
in the
side of the well, in the concrete rings, level with the asphalt. (The
concrete rings protrude above the level of the asphalt driveway.)
Some of
the run-off from the rain was running down the asphalt driveway and
getting
into the well through these holes. It had probably been that way for
years. We plugged the holes about 3 months ago.

I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so
am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well,
or
only after being exposed to air?

The water is yellow as soon as it comes out of the tap and stays that
way.
It does not change colour. There doesn't seem to be any iron
precipitating from the water.

I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
.

Thank you. I would very much appreciate any advice you could offer.
I
will probably send you an email in the near future, after more of this
continuing "saga" of water problems unfolds.

So Peter, I don't know where Phil is but we shouldn't wait any longer
for him because he may never return! lol

IMO you need a hydrocarbons scan and total iron test. This sounds like
colloidal iron to me although it could be tannin or lignin. Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

What type of pressure tank do you have?

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Phil J" wrote
I agree with the fellow who suggested adding a cap of bleach to a
gallon of water and waiting to see if the yellow disappears and a
precipitate forms. This would suggest to me that chlorination and
filtration could work for you.
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.

That was me, but what I was looking for was to see if any oxidizer will
work. That would say iron etc. is the cause of the discolored water
rather than tannins.

Well mounted pellet droppers can cause problems in the well with the
pump, casing, screen if any and casing etc.. So IMO, they should be used
only when all other means of treatment in the building wouldn't.

Cleaning a well chemically and/or mechanically and then sanitizing it
and the plumbing throughout the building and then treating the water
after it enters the building is the best way to handle these types of
problems without causing other problems.

A couple of other suggestions:

If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment, or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.

What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

Second suggestion:

Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it! In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells (not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.
Contact me at if you want to discuss.
Phil J.

Now that I can support.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Phil J" wrote
I agree with the fellow who suggested adding a cap of bleach to a
gallon of water and waiting to see if the yellow disappears and a
precipitate forms. This would suggest to me that chlorination and
filtration could work for you.
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.

That was me, but what I was looking for was to see if any oxidizer will
work. That would say iron etc. is the cause of the discolored water
rather than tannins.

Well mounted pellet droppers can cause problems in the well with the
pump, casing, screen if any and casing etc.. So IMO, they should be used
only when all other means of treatment in the building wouldn't.

Cleaning a well chemically and/or mechanically and then sanitizing it
and the plumbing throughout the building and then treating the water
after it enters the building is the best way to handle these types of
problems without causing other problems.

A couple of other suggestions:

If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment, or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.

What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

Second suggestion:

Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it! In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells (not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.
Contact me at if you want to discuss.
Phil J.

Now that I can support.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...
Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

Sorry for the delay in replying. It took me a while to obtain a clear
gallon jug.

This morning I followed the above instructions and left the jug for three
hours. There was no change in colour and no sediment appeared at the bottom
of the jug. I'm going to leave it for 24 hours to see if there is any
change.

The last time I super chlorinated the well, in May about 2 months ago, I
left it for 12 hours and then drained it until the pump turned off.
Because there was still a chlorine smell, I drained it again two more times
and then allowed it to refill completely. When we started using the
water again, it turned clear for about two days and then went pale yellow
again. I'm not certain exactly what happened to cause this.

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

The last time was in May 2003.

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?

The color has been present since we arrived last November, 2002.

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...
Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

Sorry for the delay in replying. It took me a while to obtain a clear
gallon jug.

This morning I followed the above instructions and left the jug for three
hours. There was no change in colour and no sediment appeared at the bottom
of the jug. I'm going to leave it for 24 hours to see if there is any
change.

The last time I super chlorinated the well, in May about 2 months ago, I
left it for 12 hours and then drained it until the pump turned off.
Because there was still a chlorine smell, I drained it again two more times
and then allowed it to refill completely. When we started using the
water again, it turned clear for about two days and then went pale yellow
again. I'm not certain exactly what happened to cause this.

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

The last time was in May 2003.

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?

The color has been present since we arrived last November, 2002.

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser" wrote:
"Phil J" wrote
If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment, or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.

What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys' salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.

Gary

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser" wrote:
"Phil J" wrote
If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment, or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.

What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys' salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.

Gary

I had same problem, my kids were ****tin init , you better watch were
they poop

I had same problem, my kids were ****tin init , you better watch were
they poop

My crapper was makin me sick to, pumpin to my well , I jus got rid
of the kids and no more crap now I crap in my garden , Free
fertilizer ... IM ARRAA Master of all ****

My crapper was makin me sick to, pumpin to my well , I jus got rid
of the kids and no more crap now I crap in my garden , Free
fertilizer ... IM ARRAA Master of all ****

tannin - smannon , chlorene shmorene, Ph BS Crap in it , nat
bacteria , does wonders..What did the vikings do,,, crap in it ,,,I
live it, eat it, bathe in it ,soak in it so I dont hear it from my
weife and kiddies , and IM fine except for a few cancers, i guess

tannin - smannon , chlorene shmorene, Ph BS Crap in it , nat
bacteria , does wonders..What did the vikings do,,, crap in it ,,,I
live it, eat it, bathe in it ,soak in it so I dont hear it from my
weife and kiddies , and IM fine except for a few cancers, i guess

watch wat U eat

watch wat U eat

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser"
wrote:
"Phil J" wrote
If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and
speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer)
who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with
similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in
the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment,
or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity
that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions
fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed
due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such
as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate
and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.

What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to
hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice
from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their
area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.

Gary

The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests in
their agency or department's continuation.

And each time we advise or suggest something to someone we are all
'selling' something if only an idea. Here Phil is selling Peter away
from the 'pros' that he will eventually have to return to for the
equipment to solve his problem. Also, the vast majority of 'sales' are
actually done by honest, above board and sincere folks plus.... someone
is *buying* the product and the knowledge of the salesperson. Don't they
have a responsibility in their selections?

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser"
wrote:
"Phil J" wrote
If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and
speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer)
who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with
similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in
the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment,
or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity
that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions
fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed
due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such
as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate
and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.

What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to
hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice
from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their
area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.

Gary

The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests in
their agency or department's continuation.

And each time we advise or suggest something to someone we are all
'selling' something if only an idea. Here Phil is selling Peter away
from the 'pros' that he will eventually have to return to for the
equipment to solve his problem. Also, the vast majority of 'sales' are
actually done by honest, above board and sincere folks plus.... someone
is *buying* the product and the knowledge of the salesperson. Don't they
have a responsibility in their selections?

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Peter Martin" wrote

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...
Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full
of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until
it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

Sorry for the delay in replying. It took me a while to obtain a clear
gallon jug.

This morning I followed the above instructions and left the jug for
three
hours. There was no change in colour and no sediment appeared at the
bottom
of the jug. I'm going to leave it for 24 hours to see if there is
any
change.

The last time I super chlorinated the well, in May about 2 months ago,
I
left it for 12 hours and then drained it until the pump turned off.
Because there was still a chlorine smell, I drained it again two more
times
and then allowed it to refill completely. When we started using
the
water again, it turned clear for about two days and then went pale
yellow
again. I'm not certain exactly what happened to cause this.

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

The last time was in May 2003.

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have
you
been there?

The color has been present since we arrived last November, 2002.

Ok, that goes with tannin or collidal iron. You really need to clean and
sanitize the well. See my reply to your other reply.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Peter Martin" wrote

"Gary Slusser" wrote in message
...
Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full
of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until
it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.

Sorry for the delay in replying. It took me a while to obtain a clear
gallon jug.

This morning I followed the above instructions and left the jug for
three
hours. There was no change in colour and no sediment appeared at the
bottom
of the jug. I'm going to leave it for 24 hours to see if there is
any
change.

The last time I super chlorinated the well, in May about 2 months ago,
I
left it for 12 hours and then drained it until the pump turned off.
Because there was still a chlorine smell, I drained it again two more
times
and then allowed it to refill completely. When we started using
the
water again, it turned clear for about two days and then went pale
yellow
again. I'm not certain exactly what happened to cause this.

Have you drained and flushed it lately?

The last time was in May 2003.

Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have
you
been there?

The color has been present since we arrived last November, 2002.

Ok, that goes with tannin or collidal iron. You really need to clean and
sanitize the well. See my reply to your other reply.

Gary
Quality Water Associates