On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:54:25 GMT, "Gary Slusser" wrote:
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser"
wrote:
What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to
hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice
from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their
area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.

Gary

The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests in
their agency or department's continuation.

Which means that they have a strong incentive to do the best job they
can for the public, and give the best available advice to those who ask
for help. They have no profit motive which would tend to lead them to
try to sell the consumer things he doesn't need, or which show the best
profit margin for the dealer.

You, and other dealers, on the other hand, have a large pecuniary
interest in maximizing your profits. Thus I suppose it isn't strange
that you'd have such strong objections to consumers consulting
an independent expert with no such pecuniary interests.

Gary

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:54:25 GMT, "Gary Slusser" wrote:
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser"
wrote:
What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to
hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice
from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their
area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.

Gary

The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests in
their agency or department's continuation.

Which means that they have a strong incentive to do the best job they
can for the public, and give the best available advice to those who ask
for help. They have no profit motive which would tend to lead them to
try to sell the consumer things he doesn't need, or which show the best
profit margin for the dealer.

You, and other dealers, on the other hand, have a large pecuniary
interest in maximizing your profits. Thus I suppose it isn't strange
that you'd have such strong objections to consumers consulting
an independent expert with no such pecuniary interests.

Gary

I suspect that the crud at the bottom of your well and on the sides is
causing your coloured water. But after all this, I'm wondering if it
wouldn't just be better, and cheaper in the long run, to drill a new
well. Not a dug well with concrete rings, but a proper drilled well
with 8-inch steel casing. Drilled wells are inherently safer from
contamination by surface runoff. Shallow wells with the concrete
rings are an ongoing pain because stuff is always getting into them,
and they can be difficult to clean. Almost impossible, in your case.

See if any of the neighbours have drilled wells and what their water
quality is. You may just be throwing good money after bad by trying
to fix your shallow well. Again, the local health inspectors may be
able to give you valuable local information on local wells and the
groundwater quality.

Good luck.

Phil J.


"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...
"Peter Martin" wrote


"Phil J" wrote in message
om...
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on
a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.

Thank you.

I have read a lot about oxidation of tannins using ozone instead of
chlorine, and I'm wondering about the relative costs and other
tradeoffs.
Has anyone had any experience with this?

If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer)
who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with
similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Thank you. Good advice. I will do this.

Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well
and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it!
In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells
(not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup
of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on
soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the
way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I
did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.

The sides of the well above the water level are certainly very slimy.
I've also noticed that quite a lot of leaves and other vegetation
matter
from the surrounding trees, as well as clippings from the surrounding
grass
and weeds regularly find their way onto the asphalt driveway above the
well.
The well is located in the middle of an asphalt parking area 3/4 of
the way
down the driveway. Additionally, the neighbours have told me that
the
previous occupants of the house (tenants) did not maintain the house
or the
grounds very well. If it wasn't cleaned up, this vegetation would
have
been washed down the asphalt driveway by the rain and some of it would
have
regularly gotton into the well over the past 8 to 10 years. This
spring I
plugged several small one inch diameter holes at ground level in the
concrete sides of the well through which rain water coming down the
driveway
could easily pass through. Those holes have probably been there since
the
well was constructed 15 years ago. All this is beginning to make me
suspicious that there could be a lot of accumulated muck at the
bottom of
the well.

Can tannins be caused by the muck at the bottom of a well even after
all
the vegetation at the bottom of the well has decayed? I'm wondering
if the
tannin problem might clear up on its own if no more vegetation washes
down
into the well.

Cleaning the well would be a horrible job. If I'm lucky there might
be a
local contractor who would be willing to do this type of work. My
biggest
concern would be the safety issue. I would NOT want a young
contractor
with a family to injure himself. I read a story in the news just
this week
about two men who died from bad air while cleaning out the bottom of a
well.

Yes, the grass and leaves can cause tannins and since it appears they
have been getting in for 15 years, that certainly has a negative effect
on water quality and the ability of any equipment you might use to treat
the water.

You have to clean the well before you do anything else. Once you have it
cleaned and sanitized along with all the plumbing, pressure tank and
house plumbing (by pass all water treatment equipment) you need to
sanitize the softener etc. individually. Then retest the water and go
from there.

High pressure water will help in cleaning the sides. Anyone that's handy
can come up with a pump and tubing to do that and pump out the water so
the bottom can be cleaned out. A well driller or pump guy can tell you
all you need to know to clean a well. And they may rent you a pump if
need be.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

I suspect that the crud at the bottom of your well and on the sides is
causing your coloured water. But after all this, I'm wondering if it
wouldn't just be better, and cheaper in the long run, to drill a new
well. Not a dug well with concrete rings, but a proper drilled well
with 8-inch steel casing. Drilled wells are inherently safer from
contamination by surface runoff. Shallow wells with the concrete
rings are an ongoing pain because stuff is always getting into them,
and they can be difficult to clean. Almost impossible, in your case.

See if any of the neighbours have drilled wells and what their water
quality is. You may just be throwing good money after bad by trying
to fix your shallow well. Again, the local health inspectors may be
able to give you valuable local information on local wells and the
groundwater quality.

Good luck.

Phil J.


"Gary Slusser" wrote in message ...
"Peter Martin" wrote


"Phil J" wrote in message
om...
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on
a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.

Thank you.

I have read a lot about oxidation of tannins using ozone instead of
chlorine, and I'm wondering about the relative costs and other
tradeoffs.
Has anyone had any experience with this?

If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer)
who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with
similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).

Thank you. Good advice. I will do this.

Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well
and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it!
In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells
(not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup
of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on
soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the
way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I
did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.

The sides of the well above the water level are certainly very slimy.
I've also noticed that quite a lot of leaves and other vegetation
matter
from the surrounding trees, as well as clippings from the surrounding
grass
and weeds regularly find their way onto the asphalt driveway above the
well.
The well is located in the middle of an asphalt parking area 3/4 of
the way
down the driveway. Additionally, the neighbours have told me that
the
previous occupants of the house (tenants) did not maintain the house
or the
grounds very well. If it wasn't cleaned up, this vegetation would
have
been washed down the asphalt driveway by the rain and some of it would
have
regularly gotton into the well over the past 8 to 10 years. This
spring I
plugged several small one inch diameter holes at ground level in the
concrete sides of the well through which rain water coming down the
driveway
could easily pass through. Those holes have probably been there since
the
well was constructed 15 years ago. All this is beginning to make me
suspicious that there could be a lot of accumulated muck at the
bottom of
the well.

Can tannins be caused by the muck at the bottom of a well even after
all
the vegetation at the bottom of the well has decayed? I'm wondering
if the
tannin problem might clear up on its own if no more vegetation washes
down
into the well.

Cleaning the well would be a horrible job. If I'm lucky there might
be a
local contractor who would be willing to do this type of work. My
biggest
concern would be the safety issue. I would NOT want a young
contractor
with a family to injure himself. I read a story in the news just
this week
about two men who died from bad air while cleaning out the bottom of a
well.

Yes, the grass and leaves can cause tannins and since it appears they
have been getting in for 15 years, that certainly has a negative effect
on water quality and the ability of any equipment you might use to treat
the water.

You have to clean the well before you do anything else. Once you have it
cleaned and sanitized along with all the plumbing, pressure tank and
house plumbing (by pass all water treatment equipment) you need to
sanitize the softener etc. individually. Then retest the water and go
from there.

High pressure water will help in cleaning the sides. Anyone that's handy
can come up with a pump and tubing to do that and pump out the water so
the bottom can be cleaned out. A well driller or pump guy can tell you
all you need to know to clean a well. And they may rent you a pump if
need be.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Gary Coffman" wrote
"Gary Slusser" wrote:
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser"
wrote:
What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to
hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent
advice
from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in
their
area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from
it.

Gary

The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests
in
their agency or department's continuation.

Which means that they have a strong incentive to do the best job they
can for the public, and give the best available advice to those who
ask
for help. They have no profit motive which would tend to lead them to
try to sell the consumer things he doesn't need, or which show the
best
profit margin for the dealer.

Oh really.

Phil said he hadn't heard of iron causing yellow water after the OP said
he had an iron bleedthru of his equipment and I suggested the cause of
the yellow water may be iron. I did a search at google and found a
number of sites saying some people mistakenly believe tannins are the
problem when they have yellow water which also relates to iron. And I
didn't see anyone saying or implying it couldn't be iron.

You, and other dealers, on the other hand, have a large pecuniary
interest in maximizing your profits. Thus I suppose it isn't strange
that you'd have such strong objections to consumers consulting
an independent expert with no such pecuniary interests.

Gary

And how is it that you know or believe that is true about me? If you
knew more about me you'd know exactly the opposite is true. But do a
google Groups search for me and (+) my company name and see if you still
think you're right. So far I've donated 6+ years of helping the public
understand water quality problems and their solutions and yes, the last
year I've made some sales. BTW, they are all based on the lowest prices
the person can find anywhere for the same products.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Gary Coffman" wrote
"Gary Slusser" wrote:
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser"
wrote:
What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to
hear
the rational behind the suggestion.

The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent
advice
from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in
their
area.

A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from
it.

Gary

The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests
in
their agency or department's continuation.

Which means that they have a strong incentive to do the best job they
can for the public, and give the best available advice to those who
ask
for help. They have no profit motive which would tend to lead them to
try to sell the consumer things he doesn't need, or which show the
best
profit margin for the dealer.

Oh really.

Phil said he hadn't heard of iron causing yellow water after the OP said
he had an iron bleedthru of his equipment and I suggested the cause of
the yellow water may be iron. I did a search at google and found a
number of sites saying some people mistakenly believe tannins are the
problem when they have yellow water which also relates to iron. And I
didn't see anyone saying or implying it couldn't be iron.

You, and other dealers, on the other hand, have a large pecuniary
interest in maximizing your profits. Thus I suppose it isn't strange
that you'd have such strong objections to consumers consulting
an independent expert with no such pecuniary interests.

Gary

And how is it that you know or believe that is true about me? If you
knew more about me you'd know exactly the opposite is true. But do a
google Groups search for me and (+) my company name and see if you still
think you're right. So far I've donated 6+ years of helping the public
understand water quality problems and their solutions and yes, the last
year I've made some sales. BTW, they are all based on the lowest prices
the person can find anywhere for the same products.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

from gary slusspool at **** quality assoc.... **** is better than
vinegar, we know. com.

from gary slusspool at **** quality assoc.... **** is better than
vinegar, we know. com.

who cares **** away

who cares **** away

"Phil J" wrote
I suspect that the crud at the bottom of your well and on the sides is
causing your coloured water. But after all this, I'm wondering if it
wouldn't just be better, and cheaper in the long run, to drill a new
well. Not a dug well with concrete rings, but a proper drilled well
with 8-inch steel casing. Drilled wells are inherently safer from
contamination by surface runoff. Shallow wells with the concrete
rings are an ongoing pain because stuff is always getting into them,
and they can be difficult to clean. Almost impossible, in your case.

See if any of the neighbours have drilled wells and what their water
quality is. You may just be throwing good money after bad by trying
to fix your shallow well. Again, the local health inspectors may be
able to give you valuable local information on local wells and the
groundwater quality.

Good luck.

Phil J.

I agree somewhat with a new well when compared to the one there now. But
there shouldn't be an assumption that with a new well there would be no
need for water treatment equipment. You (generally) may not need some of
what you have, or it might be too small and you'd need larger or
different equipment.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

"Phil J" wrote
I suspect that the crud at the bottom of your well and on the sides is
causing your coloured water. But after all this, I'm wondering if it
wouldn't just be better, and cheaper in the long run, to drill a new
well. Not a dug well with concrete rings, but a proper drilled well
with 8-inch steel casing. Drilled wells are inherently safer from
contamination by surface runoff. Shallow wells with the concrete
rings are an ongoing pain because stuff is always getting into them,
and they can be difficult to clean. Almost impossible, in your case.

See if any of the neighbours have drilled wells and what their water
quality is. You may just be throwing good money after bad by trying
to fix your shallow well. Again, the local health inspectors may be
able to give you valuable local information on local wells and the
groundwater quality.

Good luck.

Phil J.

I agree somewhat with a new well when compared to the one there now. But
there shouldn't be an assumption that with a new well there would be no
need for water treatment equipment. You (generally) may not need some of
what you have, or it might be too small and you'd need larger or
different equipment.

Gary
Quality Water Associates