A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a
good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve

On Wed, 18 May 2016 22:56:01 -0400, Steve Stone
wrote:

A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a
good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve
I power my whole house through a surge protector

On Wed, 18 May 2016 23:14:47 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2016 22:56:01 -0400, Steve Stone
wrote:

A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a
good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve
I power my whole house through a surge protector

Not a bad plan, just be sure your grounding electrode system is up to
the task. Point of use protectors are basically for devices that have
multiple inputs but are still just to catch things a robust array
point of entry protectors missed.

On 5/18/2016 7:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer
controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea
or a not so good idea.

That depends on what you think you'll be protecting against,
whether your utilities are overhead or below grade, where the
nearest step-down Xformer is for your little feed (usually,
~4 homes in a cluster).

It also depends on the quality of surge protector you install.

Many are just "surge protectors" in name, only.

On Wed, 18 May 2016 20:33:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/18/2016 7:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer
controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea
or a not so good idea.

That depends on what you think you'll be protecting against,
whether your utilities are overhead or below grade,

So is one of these safer than the other?

where the
nearest step-down Xformer is for your little feed (usually,
~4 homes in a cluster).

In my case, I'm the 8th townhouse from the xformer. 7 x 22 feet is
154 feet. Does this mean the first house is the most vulnerable and
it gets less as the distance increases?

It also depends on the quality of surge protector you install.

Many are just "surge protectors" in name, only.

SPINOs?

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 8:15:23 AM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016 20:33:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/18/2016 7:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer
controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea
or a not so good idea.

That depends on what you think you'll be protecting against,
whether your utilities are overhead or below grade,

So is one of these safer than the other?


Below grade is obviously safer, it can't get a direct hit from lightning
like overhead wired going to a house.



where the
nearest step-down Xformer is for your little feed (usually,
~4 homes in a cluster).

In my case, I'm the 8th townhouse from the xformer. 7 x 22 feet is
154 feet. Does this mean the first house is the most vulnerable and
it gets less as the distance increases?

I wouldn't worry about it. I doubt it makes much, if any difference and
I'm sure you won't see any data one way or the other. I've never seen
any surge protection experts have it enter into the discussion for how
you protect your home.

trader_4 posted for all of us...


Below grade is obviously safer, it can't get a direct hit from lightning
like overhead wired going to a house.


Tell that to my neighbor...

--
Tekkie

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 4:28:49 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
trader_4 posted for all of us...


Below grade is obviously safer, it can't get a direct hit from lightning
like overhead wired going to a house.


Tell that to my neighbor...

--
Tekkie

Tell us more. Where and how did this direct hit to an underground
service take place?

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 11:33:13 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 5/18/2016 7:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer
controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea
or a not so good idea.

That depends on what you think you'll be protecting against,
whether your utilities are overhead or below grade, where the
nearest step-down Xformer is for your little feed (usually,
~4 homes in a cluster).

It also depends on the quality of surge protector you install.

Many are just "surge protectors" in name, only.

And why did you start a whole new thread?

On Thu, 19 May 2016 15:10:14 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 11:33:13 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 5/18/2016 7:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer
controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea
or a not so good idea.

That depends on what you think you'll be protecting against,
whether your utilities are overhead or below grade, where the
nearest step-down Xformer is for your little feed (usually,
~4 homes in a cluster).

It also depends on the quality of surge protector you install.

Many are just "surge protectors" in name, only.

And why did you start a whole new thread?

Did he?

--
Why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies wake up every two hours?

On Wed, 18 May 2016 20:33:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 5/18/2016 7:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer
controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea
or a not so good idea.

That depends on what you think you'll be protecting against,
whether your utilities are overhead or below grade, where the
nearest step-down Xformer is for your little feed (usually,
~4 homes in a cluster).

It also depends on the quality of surge protector you install.

Many are just "surge protectors" in name, only.
Square D panel mounted durge protector on underground service 120
feet from the transformer. OK - so I KNOW it's overkill -and my
computers are protected on dual conversion UPS units too.

I75 in what state??????

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 5:06:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I75 in what state??????

Mr.G resides in Florida. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster

On Fri, 20 May 2016 15:06:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I75 in what state??????

Florida

On 05/18/2016 08:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve


Anything you do to minimize voltage spikes on your power line is a good thing...just keep in mind that the typical surge suppression device needs a good path to ground to function properly.

FWIW, most homes don't have a good ground system. You'll typically find the outdoor connection from the #6 ground wire to the ground rod is loose and/or corroded.

On 05/19/2016 03:24 AM, Roscoe wrote:
On 05/18/2016 08:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a
good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve


Anything you do to minimize voltage spikes on your power line is a good
thing...just keep in mind that the typical surge suppression device
needs a good path to ground to function properly.

FWIW, most homes don't have a good ground system. You'll typically find
the outdoor connection from the #6 ground wire to the ground rod is
loose and/or corroded.





Not really. A surge suppressor is simply an MOV which will shunt voltage
spikes.

philo: "MOV"?

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 8:55:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
philo: "MOV"?

Metal Oxide Varistor

Which doesn't diminish what it's purpose is and it's effectiveness.

But a new washing machine isn't the only electronics in the house.
Like Gfre says, best strategy is a whole house surge protector at
the panel or meter, with point-of-use type at eqpt that is also
connected to other lines, eg cable, phone, etc. If you're in a
situation where you can't put one on the panel, then point-of-use
at the washer can offer protection, but it's not the preferred
solution.

On 05/19/2016 07:55 AM, wrote:
philo: "MOV"?



http://www.howtogeek.com/212375/why-...rge-protector/

On 5/19/2016 2:19 PM, philo wrote:
On 05/19/2016 07:55 AM, wrote:
philo: "MOV"?



http://www.howtogeek.com/212375/why-...rge-protector/


Few years ago I had several surge protectors get fried by a voltage
surge when a tree fell dropping the high tension wire on the low one.
Only item I lost was a microwave without a surge protector. Many years
ago we had lost a couple of unprotected TV sets now all electron stuff
in my house is protected. Also have usb's on all computers.

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 2:19:46 PM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 05/19/2016 07:55 AM, wrote:
philo: "MOV"?



http://www.howtogeek.com/212375/why-...rge-protector/

Oh boy, W Tom will have a field day with that one and rightly so.

On 5/19/2016 12:19 PM, philo wrote:
On 05/19/2016 07:55 AM, wrote:
philo: "MOV"?



http://www.howtogeek.com/212375/why-...rge-protector/

Pretty much internet garbage.

For instance (contrary to the link) if a MOV with a 1000J rating is hit
with 1000 - 1J hits, the cumulative rating is far greater than 1000J.
Look up a data sheet.

And the amount of energy that can make it to a plug-in protector over a
branch circuit is surprisingly low. A surge expert at the NIST
investigated how much energy can reach the MOVs. Branch circuits were
10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10,000A.
The maximum energy was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases
it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are
readily available. (There are a couple reasons the energy is so low, if
anyone is interested.)

(The surge of 10,000A is, for practical purposes, the maximum surge
exposure for a house. It is the result of a 100,000A lightning strike
(only 5% are stronger) to an adjacent utility pole in typical urban
overhead distribution.)

And the IEEE surge guide (link in trader's post) describes how the
protected load can be connected to the incoming power, or connected
across the MOVs. In the latter case, if the MOVs fail the protected
equipment is disconnected. I believe protectors made now are required to
state if the protected load is not disconnected.

Some manufacturers have protected equipment warranties. They are
possible because the risk is much more limited than we expect (as
explained above).

I don't expect any of my plug-in protectors, which have good ratings, to
fail.

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 5:03:02 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 05/19/2016 03:24 AM, Roscoe wrote:
On 05/18/2016 08:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a
good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve


Anything you do to minimize voltage spikes on your power line is a good
thing...just keep in mind that the typical surge suppression device
needs a good path to ground to function properly.

FWIW, most homes don't have a good ground system. You'll typically find
the outdoor connection from the #6 ground wire to the ground rod is
loose and/or corroded.

Not really. A surge suppressor is simply an MOV which will shunt voltage
spikes.

The better ones have LC networks in them in addition to the MOV's. I like to cascade protection especially on signal lines where the first line of defense would be gas tube arrestors. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Shocking Monster

On Thu, 19 May 2016 05:03:00 -0500, philo wrote:

On 05/19/2016 03:24 AM, Roscoe wrote:
On 05/18/2016 08:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a
good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve


Anything you do to minimize voltage spikes on your power line is a good
thing...just keep in mind that the typical surge suppression device
needs a good path to ground to function properly.

FWIW, most homes don't have a good ground system. You'll typically find
the outdoor connection from the #6 ground wire to the ground rod is
loose and/or corroded.





Not really. A surge suppressor is simply an MOV which will shunt voltage
spikes.
There is all kinds of "surge protection" including line to neutral
and line to ground shunting, as well as reactive chokes

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 6:03:02 AM UTC-4, philo wrote:
Not really. A surge suppressor is simply an MOV which will shunt voltage
spikes.
And where does it shunt those spike to? If not connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground, then it must shunt those spikes elsewhere - such as destructively through adjacent electronics.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. If a protector is adjacent to an appliance, it can only protect by 'blocking' or 'absorbing' that energy. How does its 2 cm part 'block' what three kilometers of sky could not? It doesn't. How does its hundreds of joules absorb surges that can be hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. And does not have to. A surge too tiny to destroy appliances can also destroy near zero plug-in protectors. Then the naive consumer uses wild speculation to assume, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer."

More robust protection already inside appliances protect those appliances. Near zero joule protectors fail to even promote more sales.

A properly earthed 'whole house' protector does not 'block' or 'absorb' anything. It connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to what does all protection - single point earth ground. Then even near zero plug-in protectors are protected. Then near zero plug-in protectors can protect from other and tinier anomalies.

Plug-in protectors are only useful if used in conjunction with properly earthed 'whole house' protection. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Any solution that does not discuss that energy is best considered a scam.

MOVs are effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to what actually does protection - single point earth ground.

On 5/20/2016 11:01 AM, westom wrote:

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. If a protector is adjacent to an appliance, it can only protect by 'blocking' or 'absorbing' that energy. How does its 2 cm part 'block' what three kilometers of sky could not? It doesn't.

Of course it doesn't Protectors do not work by "blocking" or "absorbing"
a surge.
(But both service panel and plug-in protectors do absorb some energy in
the process of protecting.)

How does its hundreds of joules absorb surges that can be hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't.

Of course not. Protectors do not work by "absorbing".

And as has been pointed out many times, in an expert investigation the
maximum energy that can make it to a plug-in protector is quite small -
35 joules and usually far less even with the worst probable surge on
power service wires.

But it is all too complicated for westom's simple minded beliefs.

And does not have to. A surge too tiny to destroy appliances can also destroy near zero plug-in protectors.

And his stupid idea that appliances have intrinsic protection higher
than a plug-in protector
If they did, the manufacturer would list them under the UL standard for
surge protection - an advertizing advantage.


Plug-in protectors are only useful if used in conjunction with properly earthed 'whole house' protection.

The maximum energy that can make it to a plug-in protector is quite
small - 35 joules, and usually far less, even with the worst probable
surge on power service wires. And no service panel protector.


MOVs are effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to what actually does protection - single point earth ground.

It is westom's religiious belief in earthing.

Unfortunately the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) explains that
plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing. But since that
conflicts with westom's religious belief he ignores it.

On 5/19/2016 2:24 AM, Roscoe wrote:


Anything you do to minimize voltage spikes on your power line is a good
thing...just keep in mind that the typical surge suppression device
needs a good path to ground to function properly.

Plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge.

The IEEE surge guide (link in trader's post) explains (starting page 30)
plug in protectors work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power
and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the
wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

Since protection is by limiting the voltage between wires, all
interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector and
all external connections, like coax, must go through the protector.


FWIW, most homes don't have a good ground system. You'll typically find
the outdoor connection from the #6 ground wire to the ground rod is
loose and/or corroded.

Suppose you have a house earthed with a ground rod having near
miraculous 10 ohms resistance to earth (and ignoring the impedance of te
connecting wire), and a 1,000A surge is earthed. The building "ground"
system will rise 10,000A above 'absolute' earth potential. In general
70% of the voltage drop away from a ground rod is in the first 3 feet.
The earth over 3 feet away will be at least 7,000V from the building
'ground' system.

Much of the protection is that all wiring - power, phone, cable, ... -
rises together. That requires a short ground wire from phone and other
entry protectors to a common connection point on the power earthing
system. (An example of a ground wire that is too long is in the IEEE
surge guide starting page 30.)

A surge expert at the NIST has written "the impedance of the grounding
system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the
bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."

On Fri, 20 May 2016 10:48:10 -0600, bud-- wrote:

A surge expert at the NIST has written "the impedance of the grounding
system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the
bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."


That was our experience. In places with very long data lines, we
actually bonded the cases of the machines together with a large wire
that was significantly shorter than the signal wire. You can use
ferrite beads to essentially "lengthen" the signal wire but we also
looped up some extra data cable through the ferrite. That stopped the
problem of losing POS terminals in pool bars every time it rained.

"Ground" is a misnomer anyway. We have documented several volts
difference between the electrode systems of buildings that were less
than 100' apart. That causes it's own problems. You also have the
problem that in why distribution, the PoCo is using earth as a
parallel return path to that little neutral wire they have in the
distribution system. There is a significant amount of current in those
8ga wires you see going down the pole from a transformer. There is no
rod at the end of that wire. it is just tacked to the bottom of the
pole before they set it.
There is almost 3 amps on this one. (on the single phase distribution
line)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/First%20xfmr.jpg

This one is where the 3 phases of the distribution split out. (less
than an amp)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/dist...20braodway.jpg

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 11:13:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2016 10:48:10 -0600, bud-- wrote:

A surge expert at the NIST has written "the impedance of the grounding
system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the
bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."


That was our experience. In places with very long data lines, we
actually bonded the cases of the machines together with a large wire
that was significantly shorter than the signal wire. You can use
ferrite beads to essentially "lengthen" the signal wire but we also
looped up some extra data cable through the ferrite. That stopped the
problem of losing POS terminals in pool bars every time it rained.

"Ground" is a misnomer anyway. We have documented several volts
difference between the electrode systems of buildings that were less
than 100' apart. That causes it's own problems. You also have the
problem that in why distribution, the PoCo is using earth as a
parallel return path to that little neutral wire they have in the
distribution system. There is a significant amount of current in those
8ga wires you see going down the pole from a transformer. There is no
rod at the end of that wire. it is just tacked to the bottom of the
pole before they set it.
There is almost 3 amps on this one. (on the single phase distribution
line)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/First%20xfmr.jpg

This one is where the 3 phases of the distribution split out. (less
than an amp)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/dist...20braodway.jpg

When I worked as an electrician out in The Marshall Islands for a construction company building the mission control center for The SDI test program, we drove ground rods 10 feet apart around the building, bonded them together and to a ground grid under the raised computer floor where there were ground rods driven through holes in the slab under the raised flooring. It was what The Army Corps of Engineers wanted. It was a giant ground plane/grid that all the electronics including the Cray supercomputer and peripherals were grounded to. That was in the late 1980's. There is no telling WTF is out there now. Part of the replacement for The Space Fence is or is being built out there now. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Space Monster

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 3:18:16 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
When I worked as an electrician out in The Marshall Islands for a construction company building the mission control center for The SDI test program, we drove ground rods 10 feet apart around the building, bonded them together and to a ground grid under the raised computer floor where there were ground rods driven through holes in the slab under the raised flooring. It was what The Army Corps of Engineers wanted. It was a giant ground plane/grid that all the electronics including the Cray supercomputer and peripherals were grounded to.

Then you installed what we told you to do so that protection even exceeded what all homeowners need and should do. You create a single point earth ground. Protection is defined by the quality of what absorbs energy - earthing. How energy gets into earth defines why energy is not inside causing damage.

posted for all of us...



"Ground" is a misnomer anyway. We have documented several volts
difference between the electrode systems of buildings that were less
than 100' apart. That causes it's own problems. You also have the
problem that in why distribution, the PoCo is using earth as a
parallel return path to that little neutral wire they have in the
distribution system. There is a significant amount of current in those
8ga wires you see going down the pole from a transformer. There is no
rod at the end of that wire. it is just tacked to the bottom of the
pole before they set it.
There is almost 3 amps on this one. (on the single phase distribution
line)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/First%20xfmr.jpg

This one is where the 3 phases of the distribution split out. (less
than an amp)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/dist...20braodway.jpg

I touched one of these one time on the way to school when I was a kid and
got shocked. I didn't tell my parents-they would have just told me to keep
my hands off things that don't belong to me... I learned a lesson but I
wonder if contributed to my lack of brain power...

--
Tekkie

On 5/20/2016 10:48 AM, bud-- wrote:


Suppose you have a house earthed with a ground rod having near
miraculous 10 ohms resistance to earth (and ignoring the impedance of te
connecting wire), and a 1,000A surge is earthed. The building "ground"
system will rise

10,000 volts

above 'absolute' earth potential. In general
70% of the voltage drop away from a ground rod is in the first 3 feet.
The earth over 3 feet away will be at least 7,000V from the building
'ground' system

On Thu, 19 May 2016 09:24:11 +0100, Roscoe wrote:

On 05/18/2016 08:56 PM, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a surge suppressor.

Was wondering if the learned members of this group thought this was a good idea or a not so good idea.

Steve


Anything you do to minimize voltage spikes on your power line is a good thing...just keep in mind that the typical surge suppression device needs a good path to ground to function properly.

FWIW, most homes don't have a good ground system. You'll typically find the outdoor connection from the #6 ground wire to the ground rod is loose and/or corroded.

I have no ground rod. The grounding is done at the transformer (substation).

--
Have you heard of the untimely passing of the Energizer Bunny?
Someone put his batteries in backwards and he just kept coming and coming and coming . . .

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 10:56:06 PM UTC-4, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

If a washer needs protection, then so does every household item including clocks, RCD, furnace, recharging phones, and the most critical item during a surge - smoke detectors. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to protect from destructive surges. Protection means a surge is connected to earth BEFORE it enters a building. No way around that well proven science.

Does not matter if AC service is overhead or underground. Risk from surges (lightning and other sources) remains. Even underground wires can carry a direct lightning strike into a building. Every wire in every incoming cable must connect to single point earth ground BEFORE entering. Otherwise a surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Earth ground (not a protector) is the most critical component in every protection 'system'.

What does an adjacent protector do? MOVs might connect that surge from hot wire to neutral or safety ground wires. Now that surge has even more paths to find earth ground destructively via a washer or other nearby appliance.. Adjacent protectors can even make damage easier if a 'whole house' solution is not implemented.

All appliances contain robust protection. Your concern is a rare transient that might occur once every seven years. That transient must be connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth BEFORE entering. Otherwise it will go hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to 'block' or 'absorb' that transient. If anything needs that protection, then everything needs that protection.

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 11:10:53 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 10:56:06 PM UTC-4, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

If a washer needs protection, then so does every household item including clocks, RCD, furnace, recharging phones, and the most critical item during a surge - smoke detectors. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to protect from destructive surges. Protection means a surge is connected to earth BEFORE it enters a building. No way around that well proven science.

Does not matter if AC service is overhead or underground. Risk from surges (lightning and other sources) remains.

Sure it remains. But it does matter. With an underground service, the
lines leading from the street to the house, the masthead, etc are not
present and can't be hit by a direct lightning strike. Less target is
better than more target.



Even underground wires can carry a direct lightning strike into a building. Every wire in every incoming cable must connect to single point earth ground BEFORE entering. Otherwise a surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Earth ground (not a protector) is the most critical component in every protection 'system'.

What does an adjacent protector do? MOVs might connect that surge from hot wire to neutral or safety ground wires. Now that surge has even more paths to find earth ground destructively via a washer or other nearby appliance. Adjacent protectors can even make damage easier if a 'whole house' solution is not implemented.


You can listen to Tom or you can read what the electrical engineers that
specialize in surge protection say at IEEE and NIST. Both groups say
that point-of-use surge protectors do work, endorse them as part of a tiered
approach and standalone too.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div684/upload/Surges_happen.pdf

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf



All appliances contain robust protection.

Not as robust as the protection in a quality plug-in surge protector.



Your concern is a rare transient that might occur once every seven years. That transient must be connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth BEFORE entering. Otherwise it will go hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to 'block' or 'absorb' that transient. If anything needs that protection, then everything needs that protection.

Plug-ins/point-of-use work by clamping all the inputs to the same level.


I'm sure the usual W Tom rant will be forthcoming.

On Thu, 19 May 2016 08:25:40 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 11:10:53 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 10:56:06 PM UTC-4, Steve Stone wrote:
A friend with a new state of the art super high tech electronic dash
computer controlled washer claims it is best to power the beast thru a
surge suppressor.

If a washer needs protection, then so does every household item including clocks, RCD, furnace, recharging phones, and the most critical item during a surge - smoke detectors. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to protect from destructive surges. Protection means a surge is connected to earth BEFORE it enters a building. No way around that well proven science.

Does not matter if AC service is overhead or underground. Risk from surges (lightning and other sources) remains.

Sure it remains. But it does matter. With an underground service, the
lines leading from the street to the house, the masthead, etc are not
present and can't be hit by a direct lightning strike. Less target is
better than more target.



Even underground wires can carry a direct lightning strike into a building. Every wire in every incoming cable must connect to single point earth ground BEFORE entering. Otherwise a surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Earth ground (not a protector) is the most critical component in every protection 'system'.

What does an adjacent protector do? MOVs might connect that surge from hot wire to neutral or safety ground wires. Now that surge has even more paths to find earth ground destructively via a washer or other nearby appliance. Adjacent protectors can even make damage easier if a 'whole house' solution is not implemented.


You can listen to Tom or you can read what the electrical engineers that
specialize in surge protection say at IEEE and NIST. Both groups say
that point-of-use surge protectors do work, endorse them as part of a tiered
approach and standalone too.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div684/upload/Surges_happen.pdf

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf



All appliances contain robust protection.

Not as robust as the protection in a quality plug-in surge protector.



Your concern is a rare transient that might occur once every seven years. That transient must be connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth BEFORE entering. Otherwise it will go hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to 'block' or 'absorb' that transient. If anything needs that protection, then everything needs that protection.

Plug-ins/point-of-use work by clamping all the inputs to the same level.


I'm sure the usual W Tom rant will be forthcoming.

Tom sells whole house protection and you definitely need it, connected
to a good grounding electrode. The only thing Tom disagrees about is
whether a point of use protector does anything. I do believe it will
damp out locally induced shots that get into the system after it
enters the house.
That would typically be an EMP that comes from lightning hitting a
tree in the back yard.
I have survived direct hits on a weather station on my garage ...
twice ... but I have pretty good protection in several layers
including on the signal line from the weather station..

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 2:44:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Tom sells whole house protection and you definitely need it, connected
to a good grounding electrode. The only thing Tom disagrees about is
whether a point of use protector does anything. I do believe it will
damp out locally induced shots that get into the system after it
enters the house.

We don't sell these things. We installed effective protection. Direct lightning strike without damage were routine. In one venue, all wires were underground. Since single point earthing was missing, all computers in the block house (on surge protectors) were damaged. That strike to earth was a direct strike to underground wires.

I never said plug-in protectors do nothing. Constantly stated is that it only does what it claims to do - nothing more. To protect from a type of surge that typically causes no damage; a transient made irrelevant by robust protection inside every appliance. A plug-in protector does exactly what it claims to do. It does not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive type of surge. Lightning is but one example of that other type of surge.

A tree struck by lightning can be a direct connection to incoming conductors - especially buried wires or metal pipes. EMP did not cause damage. Current in a tree is then passing into buried conductors to causes damage. Using appliances as part of the path that connects to earthborne charges maybe 4 kilometers distant. That same current can be so harmful as to even kill four legged animals.

That current through a struck tree is especially destructive when all incoming conductors do not enter at a common service entrance. Makes little difference whether those conductors are overhead or underground since both need same properly earthed protection.

International design standards defined internal protection for electronics long before PCs existed. It is not debatable. Otherwise that other's denials included numbers - not personal speculation. Surges that are hundreds of joules are routinely converted into rock stable, low DC voltages to safety power semiconductors. Tiny joule (plug-in) protectors, doing what its manufacturer claims, are doing near zero protection. It does exactly what the manufacturer says it will do.

On 05/20/2016 02:12 AM, westom wrote:
We don't sell these things. We installed effective protection. Direct lightning strike without damage were routine. In one venue, all wires were underground. Since single point earthing was missing, all computers in the block house (on surge protectors) were damaged. That strike to earth was a direct strike to underground wires.

What does an effective protection system like this typically cost?

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 4:12:20 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 2:44:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Tom sells whole house protection and you definitely need it, connected
to a good grounding electrode. The only thing Tom disagrees about is
whether a point of use protector does anything. I do believe it will
damp out locally induced shots that get into the system after it
enters the house.

We don't sell these things. We installed effective protection. Direct lightning strike without damage were routine. In one venue, all wires were underground. Since single point earthing was missing, all computers in the block house (on surge protectors) were damaged. That strike to earth was a direct strike to underground wires.

I never said plug-in protectors do nothing.

You sure have said that and far worse over the years.



Constantly stated is that it only does what it claims to do - nothing more. To protect from a type of surge that typically causes no damage; a transient made irrelevant by robust protection inside every appliance.

And so it begins. Again what you're saying is contradictory to what the
electrical engineer experts in surge protection that wrote both the NIST
and IEEE guides clearly say in those guides. Readers are encouraged to
read them. They show plug-in type surge protectors being used. Which
would of course make no sense if they are irrelevant by "robust" protection
inside every appliance. Open up those appliances and you'll find small
MOVs. Look inside a decent plug-in and you'll find ones that are many
times larger. And notice who provided the links to those guides and who
does not.

On 5/20/2016 2:12 AM, westom wrote:

I never said plug-in protectors do nothing. Constantly stated is that it only does what it claims to do - nothing more. To protect from a type of surge that typically causes no damage

Complete nonsense.

A plug-in protector does exactly what it claims to do. It does not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive type of surge.

Complete nonsense.

Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warranties.

Lightning is but one example of that other type of surge.

As detailed in a post to philo, the amount of energy that can make it to
a plug-in protector is very small, even with a very strong, very near
lightning strike to power wires.


EMP did not cause damage.

Complete nonsense.

Tiny joule (plug-in) protectors, doing what its manufacturer claims, are
doing near zero protection. It does exactly what the manufacturer says
it will do.

Complete nonsense.

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in
protectors are effective.

Then read westom's sources that say they do not work. There are none.