We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

On 4/1/2016 10:48 AM, Dave C wrote:
We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

What other constraints do you have? E.g., "counter depth"? Are you
willing to rework the "enclosure" or do you want a slide-in solution?

On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:48:33 -0400, Dave C wrote:

We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

When I read reviews I try to discern fact from fiction. Does the
person have an agenda, are the negatives exaggerated, etc.. Are the
reviews from a competitor?

YMMV

On 4/1/2016 2:13 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:48:33 -0400, Dave C wrote:

We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

When I read reviews I try to discern fact from fiction. Does the
person have an agenda, are the negatives exaggerated, etc.. Are the
reviews from a competitor?

YMMV


I know of one person that has a Sub Zero, another with a Viking. Both
were disappointed with them and replaced them with conventional
refrigerators. High percentage even if it is a small number. Seems like
the negative review may have some basis.

On 4/1/2016 1:55 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I know of one person that has a Sub Zero, another with a Viking. Both were
disappointed with them and replaced them with conventional refrigerators. High
percentage even if it is a small number. Seems like the negative review may
have some basis.

Reviews are always dubious.

Does the buyer of a high-end device EXPECT more from it?
Are buyers of high-end devices less likely to want to concede they overpaid?
Does the buyer's opinion of the product change, over time?
How motivated are pleased/displeased buyers to invest in the time for a review?

etc.

I give little credence to reviews and, instead, try to find independent
data on which I can base my own appraisals.

E.g., if I ask my neighbor with the four Lexus's what he thinks of his
vehicles, he raves about them! OTOH, if I note how often one of
them is in the shop or "taking a ride" (*to* the shop), I would form
a different opinion, entirely.

Likewise, ask someone how happy they were with the quality of a
repair or other workmanship "hired out" -- then make my own assessment
of the "final result" (unable to actually OBSERVE the process as it
unfolded): "Gee, you hired an electrician to install those outdoor lights
and he just stapled ROMEX to the side of your house???"

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:55:51 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/1/2016 2:13 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:48:33 -0400, Dave C wrote:

We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

When I read reviews I try to discern fact from fiction. Does the
person have an agenda, are the negatives exaggerated, etc.. Are the
reviews from a competitor?

YMMV


I know of one person that has a Sub Zero, another with a Viking. Both
were disappointed with them and replaced them with conventional
refrigerators. High percentage even if it is a small number. Seems like
the negative review may have some basis.

I don't which ones are good, but I know someone with Sub Zero too and
they had problems. One problem was something rusting out where they
had a factory kit that was issued to correct it. Then the compressor
went. Another problem is the repair price quoted for the compressor
was outrageous. I think the repair folks know that if you're shelling
out $10K for a fridge, you will likely accept a $1500 repair bill.
When I priced out the cost of a compressor, looked to me like they
were getting hosed.

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:15:33 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:55:51 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/1/2016 2:13 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:48:33 -0400, Dave C wrote:

We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

When I read reviews I try to discern fact from fiction. Does the
person have an agenda, are the negatives exaggerated, etc.. Are the
reviews from a competitor?

YMMV


I know of one person that has a Sub Zero, another with a Viking. Both
were disappointed with them and replaced them with conventional
refrigerators. High percentage even if it is a small number. Seems like
the negative review may have some basis.

I don't which ones are good, but I know someone with Sub Zero too and
they had problems. One problem was something rusting out where they
had a factory kit that was issued to correct it. Then the compressor
went. Another problem is the repair price quoted for the compressor
was outrageous. I think the repair folks know that if you're shelling
out $10K for a fridge, you will likely accept a $1500 repair bill.
When I priced out the cost of a compressor, looked to me like they
were getting hosed.

I had problems with loony customers who couldn't understand that I wasn't selling parts, I was selling my time. I had a guy complain about the price so I asked if he wanted to pay my cost. When he said OK, I handed him a bill for one million dollars. I explained to the confused fraker that the bill represented my cost to get to that point. It represented 35 years of my cost for things like education, rent, utilities, insurance, vehicles, fuel, tools, equipment, etc....
This is from people who have no problem paying a lawyer $500 for a few sheets of paper. WTF, the paper costs 2 cents out of a pack from Office Depot. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Expensive Monster

trader_4 posted for all of us...



On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:55:51 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/1/2016 2:13 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:48:33 -0400, Dave C wrote:

We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

When I read reviews I try to discern fact from fiction. Does the
person have an agenda, are the negatives exaggerated, etc.. Are the
reviews from a competitor?

YMMV


I know of one person that has a Sub Zero, another with a Viking. Both
were disappointed with them and replaced them with conventional
refrigerators. High percentage even if it is a small number. Seems like
the negative review may have some basis.

I don't which ones are good, but I know someone with Sub Zero too and
they had problems. One problem was something rusting out where they
had a factory kit that was issued to correct it. Then the compressor
went. Another problem is the repair price quoted for the compressor
was outrageous. I think the repair folks know that if you're shelling
out $10K for a fridge, you will likely accept a $1500 repair bill.
When I priced out the cost of a compressor, looked to me like they
were getting hosed.

I know someone that had a similar story. Not a good choice. Then again some
people like status symbols; which I consider Sub Zero to be.

--
Tekkie

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote:
trader_4 posted for all of us...

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:55:51 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/1/2016 2:13 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:48:33 -0400, Dave C wrote:

We have a 20+ year old Sub Zero built-in refrigerator ( it was iin
place when we bought the house) . While it continues to function, we
want to replace it. , with a more modern/ efficient unit. Our unit
does not have a freezer module.

I have read many, mostly Negative reviews on the current Sub Zero
models. Is there a built in manufacturer series that other users would
recommend? I sure would appreciate any advise, before making a ~$7k
purchase.

When I read reviews I try to discern fact from fiction. Does the
person have an agenda, are the negatives exaggerated, etc.. Are the
reviews from a competitor?

YMMV

I know of one person that has a Sub Zero, another with a Viking. Both
were disappointed with them and replaced them with conventional
refrigerators. High percentage even if it is a small number. Seems like
the negative review may have some basis.

I don't which ones are good, but I know someone with Sub Zero too and
they had problems. One problem was something rusting out where they
had a factory kit that was issued to correct it. Then the compressor
went. Another problem is the repair price quoted for the compressor
was outrageous. I think the repair folks know that if you're shelling
out $10K for a fridge, you will likely accept a $1500 repair bill.
When I priced out the cost of a compressor, looked to me like they
were getting hosed.

I know someone that had a similar story. Not a good choice. Then again some
people like status symbols; which I consider Sub Zero to be.
--
Tekkie

The Sub Zero refrigerators I've worked on were built like and used the same components as commercial refrigeration equipment. That's from 20 years ago but I've no idea what the newer models are like. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fridge Monster

On 4/2/2016 3:50 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I had problems with loony customers who couldn't understand that I wasn't selling parts, I was selling my time. I had a guy complain about the price so I asked if he wanted to pay my cost. When he said OK, I handed him a bill for one million dollars. I explained to the confused fraker that the bill represented my cost to get to that point. It represented 35 years of my cost for things like education, rent, utilities, insurance, vehicles, fuel, tools, equipment, etc....
This is from people who have no problem paying a lawyer $500 for a few sheets of paper. WTF, the paper costs 2 cents out of a pack from Office Depot. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Expensive Monster


I remember doing a diagnostic on a refrigerator in a
home. Handed the woman a $75 invoice for diagnostic.
She asked "but, what did you DO?". I explained that
I measured, tested, thought, considered, and ended up
with a conclusion what was wrong. She some how could
not understand why I wanted money for spending half
hour testing things, and conclude that she should call
the manufacturer, as it was a warranty problem. She
kept asking "but, what did you DO?".

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 4/2/2016 5:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

The Sub Zero refrigerators I've worked on were built like and used the same components as commercial refrigeration equipment. That's from 20 years ago but I've no idea what the newer models are like. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fridge Monster


I've worked on a couple Sub-Zero refrigerators. They did
have some common problems. Defrost drain pan that
freezes, and evaporators that leak.

For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/2/2016 5:25 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

The Sub Zero refrigerators I've worked on were built like and used the same components as commercial refrigeration equipment. That's from 20 years ago but I've no idea what the newer models are like. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fridge Monster

I've worked on a couple Sub-Zero refrigerators. They did
have some common problems. Defrost drain pan that
freezes, and evaporators that leak.

For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.
--
.
It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster

On 4/2/2016 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.
--
.
It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster


I don't blame just the bean counters, a good share goes to the consumer.
We want stuff that looks good on the surface and have no idea what is
underneath. Nor do they care as long as it looks good and is affordable.

We complain about cheap crap from China, but that stuff is made to
specifications drawn up by engineers here in the USA. And when buying a
$1000 appliance we drive 50 miles to a dealer that has it $5 cheaper
even though he has a reputation for poor service.

People will buy a house because it has nice granite counter tops, but
they don't care that it has minimal insulation and an inefficient
heating system. It looks pretty.

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 6:37:13 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/2/2016 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.
--
.
It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster

I don't blame just the bean counters, a good share goes to the consumer.
We want stuff that looks good on the surface and have no idea what is
underneath. Nor do they care as long as it looks good and is affordable.

We complain about cheap crap from China, but that stuff is made to
specifications drawn up by engineers here in the USA. And when buying a
$1000 appliance we drive 50 miles to a dealer that has it $5 cheaper
even though he has a reputation for poor service.

People will buy a house because it has nice granite counter tops, but
they don't care that it has minimal insulation and an inefficient
heating system. It looks pretty.

I guess our whole society has deteriorated to the point that we only care about flashy appearance and not substance. Oh that car is so stylish and pretty! I want one of those!....... Frak that, give me an old Jeep. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Jeep Monster

If you can spare the space of a closet in or near the kitchen
you may try getting an estimate for a custom walk in refrigerator
like the restaurants have. The refrigeration unit on those is
an inexpensive package unit that can easily be swapped out
if it ever breaks which makes them very easy and cheap to repair.
Go to your favorite restaurant and ask them who their refrigeration
guy is.

On 4/2/2016 9:58 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 6:37:13 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
People will buy a house because it has nice granite counter tops, but
they don't care that it has minimal insulation and an inefficient
heating system. It looks pretty.

I guess our whole society has deteriorated to the point that we only care about flashy appearance and not substance. Oh that car is so stylish and pretty! I want one of those!....... Frak that, give me an old Jeep. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Jeep Monster


Well, us old experienced techs don't get much
respect, now days. What a shame. I'm pleased
someone on this list asked about quality.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 4/2/2016 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.
--
.
It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster


The trend seems to be cheap and disposable. I find
that sad. The landfills will soon overflow.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 4/3/2016 8:56 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/2/2016 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.
--
.
It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster


The trend seems to be cheap and disposable. I find
that sad. The landfills will soon overflow.


Sales gal tells me that 95% of people in her market generally buy
the cheapest product.
(unless its the latest iToy made by suicidal Foxconn sweatshop.)

On 4/3/2016 10:14 AM, Ned wrote:

It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean
counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap
foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster


The trend seems to be cheap and disposable. I find
that sad. The landfills will soon overflow.


Sales gal tells me that 95% of people in her market generally buy
the cheapest product.
(unless its the latest iToy made by suicidal Foxconn sweatshop.)


People will get in line a couple of days ahead of release time to get
one too. Sad commentary on the values of many of us.

On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 8:56:27 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/2/2016 7:11 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 4:39:31 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

For me, I've liked Whirlpool brand refrigerators, and
their other appliances. Tend to be simple, and use
inexpensive parts. Might not be the case now, but
back when.
--
.
It's disheartening to see once great equipment cheapened by bean counters. I've seen stuff switched by the manufacturer over to cheap foreign parts and it looses it durability and reliability. 8-(

[8~{} Uncle Broken Monster


The trend seems to be cheap and disposable. I find
that sad. The landfills will soon overflow.



The OP might consider switching to a regular refrigerator, if that's
an option. I replaced my old fridge with a new stainless steel
counter-depth one. I think a lot of people associate a non-built-in
with being ugly, sticking out in front of the cabinets, etc. Mine
has about 1/2" clearance all the way around and looks almost built-in.
But then I like the look of stainless and don't want a fridge that
has panels to look like a cabinet. I guess you can't get that look
unless it's really a built-in. But I was very happy with how mine
came out. I did have to move the kitchen cabinets out, have one of
them cut to shorten it so the new fridge would fit in underneath.
But it came out really nice.
wi

On 4/3/2016 7:14 AM, Ned wrote:
Sales gal tells me that 95% of people in her market generally buy
the cheapest product.

It actually seems to be the solution with the most inherent *value*!
Do you *really* get twice the performance/lifespan out of a product that
costs twice as much? If *not*, then why are you paying a premium -- just
to save a return trip to the store to buy the replacement a bit sooner?

frown

Manufacturers have slit their own throats by throwing quality under the
bus -- up and down their product lines!

(unless its the latest iToy made by suicidal Foxconn sweatshop.)

On 4/3/2016 2:42 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/3/2016 7:14 AM, Ned wrote:
Sales gal tells me that 95% of people in her market generally buy
the cheapest product.

It actually seems to be the solution with the most inherent *value*!
Do you *really* get twice the performance/lifespan out of a product that
costs twice as much? If *not*, then why are you paying a premium -- just
to save a return trip to the store to buy the replacement a bit sooner?

frown

Manufacturers have slit their own throats by throwing quality under the
bus -- up and down their product lines!



Depends on what you consider value and what you are willing to pay. I
have found that as the price goes up the value goes up at best, 50 cents
on the dollar. Knowing that, I'm often willing to pay the higher price
for a better "thing".

My car is the top model with every possible option. I could get basic
transportation for many thousands less. I'm sure many people think I'm
crazy and maybe I am. I enjoy driving and so I'm willing to pay for the
goodies. Others think buying a new car is a bad idea and buy used. That
benefits both of us as they get a good car at a good price and I get
some resale value.

Everything I've read about appliances, it is similar. Even a cheap
dishwasher will get dishes clean these day. You only need a couple of
cycles to cover all your needs. So is the $300 Frigidaire a better buy
than the $1100 KitchenAid? Will the KA last 3X as long? Maybe, but I'd
guess closer than 2X.

I don't drink cheap booze either.

On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 1:45:35 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 4/3/2016 7:14 AM, Ned wrote:
Sales gal tells me that 95% of people in her market generally buy
the cheapest product.

It actually seems to be the solution with the most inherent *value*!
Do you *really* get twice the performance/lifespan out of a product that
costs twice as much? If *not*, then why are you paying a premium -- just
to save a return trip to the store to buy the replacement a bit sooner?

frown

Manufacturers have slit their own throats by throwing quality under the
bus -- up and down their product lines!

(unless its the latest iToy made by suicidal Foxconn sweatshop.)

I like things that are reusable and repairable not necessarily disposable. Of course things like toilet paper are not reusable, at least not for me. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Reusable Monster

On 4/3/2016 12:39 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/3/2016 2:42 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 4/3/2016 7:14 AM, Ned wrote:
Sales gal tells me that 95% of people in her market generally buy
the cheapest product.

It actually seems to be the solution with the most inherent *value*!
Do you *really* get twice the performance/lifespan out of a product that
costs twice as much? If *not*, then why are you paying a premium -- just
to save a return trip to the store to buy the replacement a bit sooner?

frown

Manufacturers have slit their own throats by throwing quality under the
bus -- up and down their product lines!

Depends on what you consider value and what you are willing to pay.

And, depends on the type of product/service, as well.

I have
found that as the price goes up the value goes up at best, 50 cents on the
dollar. Knowing that, I'm often willing to pay the higher price for a better
"thing".

I will pay for "lack of hassles". Having to buy a replacement (and doing
all the associated research at that later date) is a LOT of hassle, IMO.

My car is the top model with every possible option. I could get basic
transportation for many thousands less. I'm sure many people think I'm crazy
and maybe I am. I enjoy driving and so I'm willing to pay for the goodies.
Others think buying a new car is a bad idea and buy used. That benefits both
of us as they get a good car at a good price and I get some resale value.

SWMBO's ran her old car for 13 years. Aside from routine maintenance (gas,
tires, oil, brakes) I don't think we put $1000 into the car in that time (I
know I replaced the starter, master cylinder and both door checkers. And,
had to fix up the driver's exterior door handle when the car was vandalized).

Her new car cost twice as much. I imagine she'll keep it just as long
and spend twice as much maintaining it!

*And*, we had to spend lots of time ($$) researching the replacement for
the old car!

Everything I've read about appliances, it is similar. Even a cheap dishwasher
will get dishes clean these day. You only need a couple of cycles to cover all
your needs. So is the $300 Frigidaire a better buy than the $1100 KitchenAid?
Will the KA last 3X as long? Maybe, but I'd guess closer than 2X.

I paid $8K *each* for my first two PC's. Colleagues were shopping in the
$2K market at the time. But, they replaced their machines much sooner
than I did. And, were always having "compatibility issues" (back when there
was a notion of "100% compatible"). Had I *billed* them for the late night
trips to "fix" their machines (hardware or software), they'd have easily
paid more than I did for mine!

[And, having two identical machines made it a lead pipe cinch for me to
determine if a "problem" was hardware or software related; *they* were
always guessing! "Time is money..."]

I don't drink cheap booze either.

There's a difference in things you consume. Do you eat dog meat? Horse
meat? Here, you can purchase 60# of produce for $10 -- but it's well past
its "sell by" date! You can also use baking soda in lieu of toothpaste
(and save $10/year?)...

We eat pork tenderloin every Sunday. I buy *beef* tenderloins sliced into
"fillets" (fillet mignon) as "steaks" -- from a butcher (not a "grocer").
Etc. I stopped drinking beer when I could no longer find someone who
imported "my brand".

OTOH, I bake all of our "sweets" -- instead of relying on the chemical
brews that you can get at a grocer (or the limited selections you can find
at a bakery -- *if* you can find one!). We harvest our own citrus (at
considerable "hassle") as it is so much better tasting (and tended)
than the stuff of dubious quality from the grocer/produce market.