Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:15:58 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

You could disconnect it in segments, one at a time, where you have
access, then see if it holds. First I'd pull out all the switches
and receptacles and see what's doing there. Any hard wired loads, eg
attic fan on it? I'd disconnect them. There probably is some
exotic tester that can do TDR or similar to find the fault, but
I don't think it's standard electrician issued stuff.

"Texas Kingsnake" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS


First thing is to swap wires at the breakers to make sure the new one is not
faulty.

Then find all the outlets that the breaker goes to. Take them loose one at
a time. Not really the outlets, but the wires going from that outlet to the
next outlet. This will isolate how far the 'good' wireing is.

On 2/22/2016 11:44 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Texas Kingsnake" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS


First thing is to swap wires at the breakers to make sure the new one is not
faulty.

Then find all the outlets that the breaker goes to. Take them loose one at
a time. Not really the outlets, but the wires going from that outlet to the
next outlet. This will isolate how far the 'good' wireing is.

+1

Make sure you know EVERY place the branch circuit goes!

If you think you can visualize how the wires have been run
(i.e., from panel to this box, then that box, then the next box, etc.)
then you can theoretically reduce the number of "guesses"
by "cutting the unknown portion in half" with each guess.

E.g., if you think the circuit runs:

Box A B C D E F G H I ...

then make your first cut at E (or thereabouts).
This will tell you if the problem lies in the
Box-A-B-C-D portion of the branch circuit or the
E-F-G-H-I portion.

[Note that there may be more than one problem!]

If the problem persists in the Box-A-B-C-D portion,
then cut this at B. Now you can narrow it down to
Box-A-B or C-D.

As you will probably be using the (proven non-defective!)
AFCI as a "tester", if the portion of the branch circuit that
you've isolated appears to have the problem (i.e., problem
goes away when you cut the circuit at E -- suggesting problem
lies in E-F-G-H-I), then you will have to reconnect that
portion (verify that the problem REAPPEARS as your tinkering
with it could have "fixed" the problem!) and now find
a spot in the "suspect" E-F-G-H-I segment to cut -- like
at G.

This then isolates the problem to H-I or Box-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
(but you already know Box-A-B-C-D-E is good so it's really
just E-F-G!)

The alternative approach is to isolate 'I'. If now tests
OK, then I was the problem. Otherwise, isolate H, then
G, then F, etc.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:15:58 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

You could disconnect it in segments, one at a time, where you have
access, then see if it holds. First I'd pull out all the switches
and receptacles and see what's doing there. Any hard wired loads, eg
attic fan on it? I'd disconnect them. There probably is some
exotic tester that can do TDR or similar to find the fault, but
I don't think it's standard electrician issued stuff.

My electrician buddy didn't have a tester that could detect arc faults.
We've left it so that I have a week to figure out where the problem is and
that means, as you have noted, pulling everything I can from the circuit
until it stops tripping. It's a real nuisance because living room and
bedroom outlets with a lot of important devices are affected.

We reconnected the old plain breaker that wasn't affected by the arc fault
for now and I will disconnect everything I can (and temporarily move things
like the router to other circuits. Then we will reconnect the AFCI and see
if that cleared it. Then I will add back things to the re-enabled AFCI
circuit until the arc fault appears.

My buddy says that in his experience it turns out to be either a power strip
with a partially inserted plug or a back-stabbed outlet that's failing.
Disconnecting all the loads should tell us whether or not it's bad wiring in
the walls or outlets. What fun. I suspected there was going to an issue
replacing the panel. Just didn't expect this!

My electrician friend said that if it's a defect in the in-wall wiring that
it would probably be best to kill that circuit and run a new one with new
wiring and outlets. I tend to agree since this old circuit is cloth-covered
"ragwire" that has no ground. Perhaps it's time to decommission it.

Thanks for your help.

TKS

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"Texas Kingsnake" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS


First thing is to swap wires at the breakers to make sure the new one is
not
faulty.

I am not sure that was done and you have got me thinking - one of the AFCI's
was different than the others - had a little green piece of plastic. I
wonder if a defective AFCI didn't get mixed into the bunch? I will have
him test it next time. The AFCI that popped has been pulled (still hanging
in the box because the pigtail neutral is buried on the first of the tiered
neutral bar connections) and replaced with the old breaker that doesn't
trip.

It's a real nuisance to go back and forth between the two - might have to
set up some jumpers so that I can easily change from AFCI to normal breaker
easily. Not sure how I would do that - a pigtail coming off the two
breakers that I can wire nut to the circuit hot wire?

TKS

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2016 11:44 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Texas Kingsnake" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS


First thing is to swap wires at the breakers to make sure the new one is
not
faulty.

Then find all the outlets that the breaker goes to. Take them loose one
at
a time. Not really the outlets, but the wires going from that outlet to
the
next outlet. This will isolate how far the 'good' wireing is.

+1

Make sure you know EVERY place the branch circuit goes!

I tried to get Superman to help me with his X-ray eyes but he's busy
fighting Batman at the moment. smile How DO you figure out where all the
branches of a circuit are? I was surprised that one breaker controlled both
living room and bedroom outlets. It seems that each room's outlets are
served by different breakers so that the LR has two different breakers for
outlets on different walls, etc.

If you think you can visualize how the wires have been run
(i.e., from panel to this box, then that box, then the next box, etc.)
then you can theoretically reduce the number of "guesses"
by "cutting the unknown portion in half" with each guess.

Sounds like Newton's method of approximation.

E.g., if you think the circuit runs:

Box A B C D E F G H I ...

then make your first cut at E (or thereabouts).
This will tell you if the problem lies in the
Box-A-B-C-D portion of the branch circuit or the
E-F-G-H-I portion.

Sweet Jesus. You are making a very strong case for just running another
circuit. The problem is that two overhead lights also run off the bad
circuit and that makes things more complicated than installing two more
grounded outlets (these are ungrounded and probably SHOULD be replaced).

[Note that there may be more than one problem!]

No truer words were ever spoken.

If the problem persists in the Box-A-B-C-D portion,
then cut this at B. Now you can narrow it down to
Box-A-B or C-D.

As you will probably be using the (proven non-defective!)
AFCI as a "tester", if the portion of the branch circuit that
you've isolated appears to have the problem (i.e., problem
goes away when you cut the circuit at E -- suggesting problem
lies in E-F-G-H-I), then you will have to reconnect that
portion (verify that the problem REAPPEARS as your tinkering
with it could have "fixed" the problem!) and now find
a spot in the "suspect" E-F-G-H-I segment to cut -- like
at G.

You have just confirmed that running this down is going to be as difficult
as I thought when the problem first appeared.

I suppose I could take everything off the circuit except the overheads, run
two new grounded outlets and hope that fixes things. With the new LED
lights, they probably don't draw enough current to make an arc fault very
dangerous. As I understand it is the big loads that cause the problems with
arcs, but I could be mistaken and often am.

This then isolates the problem to H-I or Box-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
(but you already know Box-A-B-C-D-E is good so it's really
just E-F-G!)

The alternative approach is to isolate 'I'. If now tests
OK, then I was the problem. Otherwise, isolate H, then
G, then F, etc.

I've heard this method referred to as "grunt and crank".

TKS

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

I suggested swapping breakers but by that time my buddy wanted to get home
and so we'll do it next time. Right now it's back on the old, plain breaker
that doesn't trip while I shunt the current loads on that circuit over to
other, nearby outlets. I suppose if I move the loads to one of the new AFCI
enabled circuits and that one trips, I've found the culprit.

I guess this is a good thing (revealing an arc fault that was unknown until
now) but it sure seems like it is going to become a major pain in the ass.

In the meantime, since we had to rearrange a number of breakers to
accommodate the old, short ragwire connections, I need to check each circuit
one at a time to correctly ID it in the panel. We did the best we could to
preserve the old numbering but it is time to double check things.

I guess now I will be marking outlets with a circuit number and a letter to
indicate which one preceeds another. That isn't going to be easy nor
accomplished without disturbing an awful lot of existing wiring -- and the
plaster covering it, too. Sheesh. Goes to show that no good deed goes
unpunished. Never expected to hit this sort of problem.

TKS

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light fixture or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a problem are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for the power company communications division would often track down RFI caused by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing enough current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left on in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or rivet at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

On 2/22/2016 7:45 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Make sure you know EVERY place the branch circuit goes!

I tried to get Superman to help me with his X-ray eyes but he's busy
fighting Batman at the moment. smile How DO you figure out where all the
branches of a circuit are?

Some of it is common sense -- knowing how homes TEND to be wired
(though there are caveats). I.e., its unlikely that rooms at opposite
ends of the house will be on the same circuit -- wire costs money
so why run a long length to tie two areas together that could be
better served with different circuits?

You can buy devices to trace wires. Or, just turn on all the lights in
the house and see which ones go OFF when you trip the breaker. Ditto
for outlets (carrying a test lamp around with you).

In your case, that circuit is dead. So, you'll instead be looking
for outlets and lights that DON'T work.

When your list is complete, look at it. Are all of the outlets
in one room listed on the circuit -- except for one? Hmmm... does
that make sense? Maybe double-check it. It *may*, in fact,
be on a different circuit (e.g., may have been added to handle
a new window mount air conditioner, etc.).

The hardest part (esp for older homes) is tracking down things
that might not be obvious. E.g., older homes tended to have
"clock outlets" -- recessed high in the wall for a clock.
If you fail to count all the loads, you may wonder why you've
disconnected EVERY load (receptacle/light) and STILL have a problem!
Ans: you've missed something! :

Hint: save this list as it now tells you what that ONE breaker
services. You can repeat the exercise for the other breakers
(since they are working, now, you just turn off one breaker at
a time and see what goes off)

I was surprised that one breaker controlled both
living room and bedroom outlets.

I'll wager LR and BR are adjacent? Maybe share a wall?

It seems that each room's outlets are
served by different breakers so that the LR has two different breakers for
outlets on different walls, etc.

It's nice if you can feed a room from two different circuits;
splits the load up. I'll suspect one set of outlets service that
half of the room plus an adjacent bedroom; and the other set
are shared with yet another room.

If you think you can visualize how the wires have been run
(i.e., from panel to this box, then that box, then the next box, etc.)
then you can theoretically reduce the number of "guesses"
by "cutting the unknown portion in half" with each guess.

Sounds like Newton's method of approximation.

E.g., if you think the circuit runs:

Box A B C D E F G H I ...

then make your first cut at E (or thereabouts).
This will tell you if the problem lies in the
Box-A-B-C-D portion of the branch circuit or the
E-F-G-H-I portion.

Sweet Jesus. You are making a very strong case for just running another

In reality, there are usually not very many loads on a given circuit.
E.g., here I think one of our lighting circuits may have a dozen
loads/fixtures (lamps) on it.

circuit. The problem is that two overhead lights also run off the bad
circuit and that makes things more complicated than installing two more
grounded outlets (these are ungrounded and probably SHOULD be replaced).

Just treat them as any other "load".

Note that your problem may also NOT be in a junction box/fixture.
There could be a nail driven through a wire *in* the wall, etc.
But, regardless, you'll be able to trace the fault to some
stretch of wire. You can then isolate and/or repair the length
instead of having to rewire the whole branch circuit.

[Note that there may be more than one problem!]

No truer words were ever spoken.

If the problem persists in the Box-A-B-C-D portion,
then cut this at B. Now you can narrow it down to
Box-A-B or C-D.

As you will probably be using the (proven non-defective!)
AFCI as a "tester", if the portion of the branch circuit that
you've isolated appears to have the problem (i.e., problem
goes away when you cut the circuit at E -- suggesting problem
lies in E-F-G-H-I), then you will have to reconnect that
portion (verify that the problem REAPPEARS as your tinkering
with it could have "fixed" the problem!) and now find
a spot in the "suspect" E-F-G-H-I segment to cut -- like
at G.

You have just confirmed that running this down is going to be as difficult
as I thought when the problem first appeared.

No, it really isn't. You don't have to open any holes into walls, etc.
You're just having to visit each of the LIKELY places that a fault
can develop (junction boxes/fixtures) and see which one is the problem.
If you have a dozen such places, then, worst case, you have to visit
all 12 of them!

I suppose I could take everything off the circuit except the overheads, run
two new grounded outlets and hope that fixes things. With the new LED
lights, they probably don't draw enough current to make an arc fault very
dangerous. As I understand it is the big loads that cause the problems with
arcs, but I could be mistaken and often am.

This then isolates the problem to H-I or Box-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
(but you already know Box-A-B-C-D-E is good so it's really
just E-F-G!)

The alternative approach is to isolate 'I'. If now tests
OK, then I was the problem. Otherwise, isolate H, then
G, then F, etc.

I've heard this method referred to as "grunt and crank".

TKS

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:54:14 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

I suggested swapping breakers but by that time my buddy wanted to get home
and so we'll do it next time. Right now it's back on the old, plain breaker
that doesn't trip while I shunt the current loads on that circuit over to
other, nearby outlets. I suppose if I move the loads to one of the new AFCI
enabled circuits and that one trips, I've found the culprit.

I guess this is a good thing (revealing an arc fault that was unknown until
now) but it sure seems like it is going to become a major pain in the ass.

In the meantime, since we had to rearrange a number of breakers to
accommodate the old, short ragwire connections, I need to check each circuit
one at a time to correctly ID it in the panel. We did the best we could to
preserve the old numbering but it is time to double check things.

I guess now I will be marking outlets with a circuit number and a letter to
indicate which one preceeds another. That isn't going to be easy nor
accomplished without disturbing an awful lot of existing wiring -- and the
plaster covering it, too. Sheesh. Goes to show that no good deed goes
unpunished. Never expected to hit this sort of problem.

TKS

Get yerself a "fox and hound" tester. Turn off the breaker and plug
the fox into one of the outlets and set the hound loose - tracing the
wires from that outlet both ways - back to the panel and on to the end
if you didn't manage to find the last outlet in the string. If you
have metal lathe in your plaster it will make things more difficult,
but not necessarily impossible.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:19:37 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light fixture or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a problem are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for the power company communications division would often track down RFI caused by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing enough current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left on in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or rivet at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster
And when you've eliminated all the "possible" you've narrowed it down
to the "impossible".

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light fixture
or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a problem
are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for
the power company communications division would often track down RFI caused
by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing enough
current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left on
in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or rivet
at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of
weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only
discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

You have all laid out some serious detective work ahead. Nice to know that
there are lots more things to look for. groan I think I have a pretty
good idea where to start looking.

Someone on a electrical website suggested taking the AFCI breaker and
mounting it on a cord so I can plug it into outlets on the circuit and see
if it trips -- at least that way I can keep the circuit live on the old
breaker while testing for the location of the arc fault. Someone else said
the breaker wouldn't trip if it wasn't under load, even plugged into a
circuit with an arc fault.

We did replace one outlet -- I pulled it from the wall while live (don't
tell on me!) and I saw sparks coming from the internals of the outlet.
Replaced it, but that didn't solve the problem. I guess like I said
elsewhere it is time for "grunten and cranken." Cripes. I am sorely
tempted just to leave the old breaker in place and remove all the heavy
loads from the old circuit. Running two new grounded outlets, a real bitch
in old houses like this, doesn't seem nearly as much work as has been
described in locating the fault.

What I really need is some way to remotely switch back and forth between the
old breaker and the new AFCI one so I can see the effects of removing loads
one at a time. I guess the reverse of that is to disconnect all loads,
power up the circuit and if it holds, add back the loads one at a time until
I find the mutha frakker that is doing this. If the breaker even holds,
that is. If it doesn't that means doing what has already been described by
Don and others. Digging the wires out of the wall. Not gonna happen. If I
am going to tear up plaster, it is going to be to install new grounded
romex.

What a cluster-frak!

TKS

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2016 7:45 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Make sure you know EVERY place the branch circuit goes!

I tried to get Superman to help me with his X-ray eyes but he's busy
fighting Batman at the moment. smile How DO you figure out where all
the
branches of a circuit are?

Some of it is common sense -- knowing how homes TEND to be wired
(though there are caveats). I.e., its unlikely that rooms at opposite
ends of the house will be on the same circuit -- wire costs money
so why run a long length to tie two areas together that could be
better served with different circuits?

You can buy devices to trace wires. Or, just turn on all the lights in
the house and see which ones go OFF when you trip the breaker. Ditto
for outlets (carrying a test lamp around with you).

In your case, that circuit is dead. So, you'll instead be looking
for outlets and lights that DON'T work.

When your list is complete, look at it. Are all of the outlets
in one room listed on the circuit -- except for one? Hmmm... does
that make sense? Maybe double-check it. It *may*, in fact,
be on a different circuit (e.g., may have been added to handle
a new window mount air conditioner, etc.).

The hardest part (esp for older homes) is tracking down things
that might not be obvious. E.g., older homes tended to have
"clock outlets" -- recessed high in the wall for a clock.
If you fail to count all the loads, you may wonder why you've
disconnected EVERY load (receptacle/light) and STILL have a problem!
Ans: you've missed something! :

Hint: save this list as it now tells you what that ONE breaker
services. You can repeat the exercise for the other breakers
(since they are working, now, you just turn off one breaker at
a time and see what goes off)

I was surprised that one breaker controlled both
living room and bedroom outlets.

I'll wager LR and BR are adjacent? Maybe share a wall?

No, and that surprised me.

It seems that each room's outlets are
served by different breakers so that the LR has two different breakers
for
outlets on different walls, etc.

It's nice if you can feed a room from two different circuits;
splits the load up. I'll suspect one set of outlets service that
half of the room plus an adjacent bedroom; and the other set
are shared with yet another room.

If you think you can visualize how the wires have been run
(i.e., from panel to this box, then that box, then the next box, etc.)
then you can theoretically reduce the number of "guesses"
by "cutting the unknown portion in half" with each guess.

Sounds like Newton's method of approximation.

E.g., if you think the circuit runs:

Box A B C D E F G H I ...

then make your first cut at E (or thereabouts).
This will tell you if the problem lies in the
Box-A-B-C-D portion of the branch circuit or the
E-F-G-H-I portion.

Sweet Jesus. You are making a very strong case for just running another

In reality, there are usually not very many loads on a given circuit.
E.g., here I think one of our lighting circuits may have a dozen
loads/fixtures (lamps) on it.

circuit. The problem is that two overhead lights also run off the bad
circuit and that makes things more complicated than installing two more
grounded outlets (these are ungrounded and probably SHOULD be replaced).

Just treat them as any other "load".

Note that your problem may also NOT be in a junction box/fixture.
There could be a nail driven through a wire *in* the wall, etc.
But, regardless, you'll be able to trace the fault to some
stretch of wire. You can then isolate and/or repair the length
instead of having to rewire the whole branch circuit.

Gawd! Every message I have read today just adds to the list of monsters
that might be hiding under the walls. I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one at a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out to see if
there is a load I missed.

TKS

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:04:09 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light fixture
or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a problem
are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for
the power company communications division would often track down RFI caused
by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing enough
current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left on
in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or rivet
at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of
weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only
discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

You have all laid out some serious detective work ahead. Nice to know that
there are lots more things to look for. groan I think I have a pretty
good idea where to start looking.

Someone on a electrical website suggested taking the AFCI breaker and
mounting it on a cord so I can plug it into outlets on the circuit and see
if it trips -- at least that way I can keep the circuit live on the old
breaker while testing for the location of the arc fault. Someone else said
the breaker wouldn't trip if it wasn't under load, even plugged into a
circuit with an arc fault.

We did replace one outlet -- I pulled it from the wall while live (don't
tell on me!) and I saw sparks coming from the internals of the outlet.
Replaced it, but that didn't solve the problem. I guess like I said
elsewhere it is time for "grunten and cranken." Cripes. I am sorely
tempted just to leave the old breaker in place and remove all the heavy
loads from the old circuit. Running two new grounded outlets, a real bitch
in old houses like this, doesn't seem nearly as much work as has been
described in locating the fault.

What I really need is some way to remotely switch back and forth between the
old breaker and the new AFCI one so I can see the effects of removing loads
one at a time. I guess the reverse of that is to disconnect all loads,
power up the circuit and if it holds, add back the loads one at a time until
I find the mutha frakker that is doing this. If the breaker even holds,
that is. If it doesn't that means doing what has already been described by
Don and others. Digging the wires out of the wall. Not gonna happen. If I
am going to tear up plaster, it is going to be to install new grounded
romex.

What a cluster-frak!

TKS

Start by unlugging EVERYTHING. If that fixes it, you are lucky - it's
likely not IN the wall. Then plug things in untill it trips. If
unplugging everything doesn't fix it, start disconnecting outlets.

Remember the arc can be either a series arc or a parallel arc. A
series arc is an intermittent open in nature - a parallel ark is an
intermittent high impedence "short". Those can burn the house down
without a load attached and are the difficult ones to trace.
Sometimes an old am transistor radio can detect the crackle - (couls
even work for series arc - I'd give it a try anyway!!

On 2/22/2016 9:17 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gawd! Every message I have read today just adds to the list of monsters
that might be hiding under the walls.

It;s really not that bad! And, it's not really *hard* work. It's
FRUSTRATING because you can't see what you are doing... can't tell
if this is likely to be the problem, etc.

But, I'll wager you didn't hesitate the first time you tried to
unhook a bra strap "without seeing"! :

I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one at a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out to see if
there is a load I missed.

First make sure the AFCI doesn't trip with NO WIRE attached to it!

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:54:14 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the
panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the
panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

I suggested swapping breakers but by that time my buddy wanted to get
home
and so we'll do it next time. Right now it's back on the old, plain
breaker
that doesn't trip while I shunt the current loads on that circuit over to
other, nearby outlets. I suppose if I move the loads to one of the new
AFCI
enabled circuits and that one trips, I've found the culprit.

I guess this is a good thing (revealing an arc fault that was unknown
until
now) but it sure seems like it is going to become a major pain in the
ass.

In the meantime, since we had to rearrange a number of breakers to
accommodate the old, short ragwire connections, I need to check each
circuit
one at a time to correctly ID it in the panel. We did the best we could
to
preserve the old numbering but it is time to double check things.

I guess now I will be marking outlets with a circuit number and a letter
to
indicate which one preceeds another. That isn't going to be easy nor
accomplished without disturbing an awful lot of existing wiring -- and
the
plaster covering it, too. Sheesh. Goes to show that no good deed goes
unpunished. Never expected to hit this sort of problem.

TKS

Get yerself a "fox and hound" tester. Turn off the breaker and plug
the fox into one of the outlets and set the hound loose - tracing the
wires from that outlet both ways - back to the panel and on to the end
if you didn't manage to find the last outlet in the string. If you
have metal lathe in your plaster it will make things more difficult,
but not necessarily impossible.

Got one today based on a suggestion from a web forum. So far all I know is
the wire from the troubled circuit leaves the box and heads right into a
bundle of other wires heading into the attic. I wasn't able to trace to
anything I didn't already know by inspection when the breaker's off. Crap!

More importantly, this is one of the old "ragwires" and I don't know how
much more connecting and disconnecting from the breaker it is going to
stand. I may have to pigtail a wire from each of the two different types of
breaker and switch between them using heavy duty insulated alligator clips
on a jumper wire. I don't want to add a broken wire to my other troubles.

TKS

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2016 9:17 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gawd! Every message I have read today just adds to the list of monsters
that might be hiding under the walls.

It;s really not that bad! And, it's not really *hard* work. It's
FRUSTRATING because you can't see what you are doing... can't tell
if this is likely to be the problem, etc.

But, I'll wager you didn't hesitate the first time you tried to
unhook a bra strap "without seeing"! :

Funny you should say that. I just pull the shoulder straps down
simultaneously and keep pulling until it's down around the waist. The
change in diameter from shoulders to waist often unhooks the bra all by
itself. Either way, what needs to be accessed is accessible, if you know
what I mean!

I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one at a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips
with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out to
see if
there is a load I missed.

First make sure the AFCI doesn't trip with NO WIRE attached to it!

Yep, that's on the list. I've decided to wire a SPDT switch between the two
breakers (now that I have so many open slots) and the circuit wire --
temporarily. That way I can power the circuit through either breaker at the
flip of a switch.

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big freaking
hurry. frown

TKS

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:04:09 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light
fixture
or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a
problem
are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for
the power company communications division would often track down RFI
caused
by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing
enough
current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left
on
in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or
rivet
at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of
weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only
discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

You have all laid out some serious detective work ahead. Nice to know
that
there are lots more things to look for. groan I think I have a pretty
good idea where to start looking.

Someone on a electrical website suggested taking the AFCI breaker and
mounting it on a cord so I can plug it into outlets on the circuit and
see
if it trips -- at least that way I can keep the circuit live on the old
breaker while testing for the location of the arc fault. Someone else
said
the breaker wouldn't trip if it wasn't under load, even plugged into a
circuit with an arc fault.

We did replace one outlet -- I pulled it from the wall while live (don't
tell on me!) and I saw sparks coming from the internals of the outlet.
Replaced it, but that didn't solve the problem. I guess like I said
elsewhere it is time for "grunten and cranken." Cripes. I am sorely
tempted just to leave the old breaker in place and remove all the heavy
loads from the old circuit. Running two new grounded outlets, a real
bitch
in old houses like this, doesn't seem nearly as much work as has been
described in locating the fault.

What I really need is some way to remotely switch back and forth between
the
old breaker and the new AFCI one so I can see the effects of removing
loads
one at a time. I guess the reverse of that is to disconnect all loads,
power up the circuit and if it holds, add back the loads one at a time
until
I find the mutha frakker that is doing this. If the breaker even holds,
that is. If it doesn't that means doing what has already been described
by
Don and others. Digging the wires out of the wall. Not gonna happen.
If I
am going to tear up plaster, it is going to be to install new grounded
romex.

What a cluster-frak!

TKS

Start by unlugging EVERYTHING. If that fixes it, you are lucky - it's
likely not IN the wall. Then plug things in untill it trips. If
unplugging everything doesn't fix it, start disconnecting outlets.

That is generally what I am doing but I need to run extension cords from
other outlets to keep the router and other essential items running while I
test. What a cluster frak.

Remember the arc can be either a series arc or a parallel arc.

What is this? There is more than one type of arc monster to deal with? Say
it isn't so!

A series arc is an intermittent open in nature - a parallel ark is an
intermittent high impedence "short". Those can burn the house down
without a load attached and are the difficult ones to trace.

They all seem to be difficult to trace. I assume a partially inserted plug
causes a series fault while a nail through the wire causes a parallel one.
More reading to do.

I wish this stinker just worked when we turned the panel back on. He
charged me $750 for the panel replacement (20 breakers in all) and it took 6
hours. That seems to be a pretty good price for panel replacement and he
did a very neat job. This AFCI thing was just circumstances beyond anyone's
control. As ****ed off as I am by all the extra work that is involved, I
suppose I should be thankful that the AFCI discovered the arc fault, and not
the firemen.

Sometimes an old am transistor radio can detect the crackle - (couls
even work for series arc - I'd give it a try anyway!!

Now I feel like a Marconi operator listening for the Titanic sinking!

FWIW, I took the old main breaker out and it was certainly heat and
corrosion damaged. Very interesting how they put those things together. I
think it would have lasted another 20 years, though, because none of the
contact areas were very corroded. The problem was the broken set screw and
though we patched around it, the only way to repair it was to replace it.

Still, I am happy we replaced it even though my wallet is not.

TKS

On 2/22/2016 10:17 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
It;s really not that bad! And, it's not really *hard* work. It's
FRUSTRATING because you can't see what you are doing... can't tell
if this is likely to be the problem, etc.

But, I'll wager you didn't hesitate the first time you tried to
unhook a bra strap "without seeing"! :

Funny you should say that. I just pull the shoulder straps down
simultaneously and keep pulling until it's down around the waist. The
change in diameter from shoulders to waist often unhooks the bra all by
itself. Either way, what needs to be accessed is accessible, if you know
what I mean!

Ah, well I seem to recall sort of being "graded" on "technique".
So, the one-hand approach got the best appraisal!

Of course, back then, it was much easier to impress.

OTOH, I drove SWMBO for some labwork the other day and apparently
managed to "impress" the technician:
"Is that young man with you?"
"Yes."
"Lucky *you*!"

[I've learned that the only safe answer in these situations is
to SAY NOTHING!! : ]

I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one at a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips
with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out to
see if
there is a load I missed.

First make sure the AFCI doesn't trip with NO WIRE attached to it!

Yep, that's on the list. I've decided to wire a SPDT switch between the two
breakers (now that I have so many open slots) and the circuit wire --
temporarily. That way I can power the circuit through either breaker at the
flip of a switch.

I'm not sure why you are adding a second breaker and then wanting to switch
between them. Note that switches come in different contact configurations.
Be sure yours is "break before make" else you can end up shorting one
"side" of the switch (i.e., one of the "DT"s) to the other as the
armature travels from one position to the other. The short will persist
for one or two ohnoseconds... long enough for a profound "Ooops!"

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big freaking
hurry. frown

Time for a nap. A 6:00AM day, tomorrow (whoever invented AM should be taken
out, beaten until bloody, then shot -- repeatedly!!)

Good Luck!

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:20:49 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:54:14 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the
panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the
panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

I suggested swapping breakers but by that time my buddy wanted to get
home
and so we'll do it next time. Right now it's back on the old, plain
breaker
that doesn't trip while I shunt the current loads on that circuit over to
other, nearby outlets. I suppose if I move the loads to one of the new
AFCI
enabled circuits and that one trips, I've found the culprit.

I guess this is a good thing (revealing an arc fault that was unknown
until
now) but it sure seems like it is going to become a major pain in the
ass.

In the meantime, since we had to rearrange a number of breakers to
accommodate the old, short ragwire connections, I need to check each
circuit
one at a time to correctly ID it in the panel. We did the best we could
to
preserve the old numbering but it is time to double check things.

I guess now I will be marking outlets with a circuit number and a letter
to
indicate which one preceeds another. That isn't going to be easy nor
accomplished without disturbing an awful lot of existing wiring -- and
the
plaster covering it, too. Sheesh. Goes to show that no good deed goes
unpunished. Never expected to hit this sort of problem.

TKS

Get yerself a "fox and hound" tester. Turn off the breaker and plug
the fox into one of the outlets and set the hound loose - tracing the
wires from that outlet both ways - back to the panel and on to the end
if you didn't manage to find the last outlet in the string. If you
have metal lathe in your plaster it will make things more difficult,
but not necessarily impossible.

Got one today based on a suggestion from a web forum. So far all I know is
the wire from the troubled circuit leaves the box and heads right into a
bundle of other wires heading into the attic. I wasn't able to trace to
anything I didn't already know by inspection when the breaker's off. Crap!

More importantly, this is one of the old "ragwires" and I don't know how
much more connecting and disconnecting from the breaker it is going to
stand. I may have to pigtail a wire from each of the two different types of
breaker and switch between them using heavy duty insulated alligator clips
on a jumper wire. I don't want to add a broken wire to my other troubles..

TKS

Hum, if the circuit heads for the attic, a small roof leak could have gotten a junction box wet and the water could have dripped into a connection and caused it to become a high resistance fault that starts arcing under load. I know one thing about your problem, you must post what you found or some of these guys might come looking for you. snicker ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fault Monster

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:20:51 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2016 9:17 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gawd! Every message I have read today just adds to the list of monsters
that might be hiding under the walls.

It;s really not that bad! And, it's not really *hard* work. It's
FRUSTRATING because you can't see what you are doing... can't tell
if this is likely to be the problem, etc.

But, I'll wager you didn't hesitate the first time you tried to
unhook a bra strap "without seeing"! :

Funny you should say that. I just pull the shoulder straps down
simultaneously and keep pulling until it's down around the waist. The
change in diameter from shoulders to waist often unhooks the bra all by
itself. Either way, what needs to be accessed is accessible, if you know
what I mean!

I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one at a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips
with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out to
see if
there is a load I missed.

First make sure the AFCI doesn't trip with NO WIRE attached to it!

Yep, that's on the list. I've decided to wire a SPDT switch between the two
breakers (now that I have so many open slots) and the circuit wire --
temporarily. That way I can power the circuit through either breaker at the
flip of a switch.

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big freaking
hurry. frown

TKS

I could never reach behind my back to hook or unhook a bra so I gave up on trying to wear one. Of course I lost a lot of weight and the man boobs went away so I don't need a bra. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Boob Monster

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:51:01 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:04:09 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light
fixture
or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a
problem
are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for
the power company communications division would often track down RFI
caused
by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing
enough
current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left
on
in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or
rivet
at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of
weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only
discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

You have all laid out some serious detective work ahead. Nice to know
that
there are lots more things to look for. groan I think I have a pretty
good idea where to start looking.

Someone on a electrical website suggested taking the AFCI breaker and
mounting it on a cord so I can plug it into outlets on the circuit and
see
if it trips -- at least that way I can keep the circuit live on the old
breaker while testing for the location of the arc fault. Someone else
said
the breaker wouldn't trip if it wasn't under load, even plugged into a
circuit with an arc fault.

We did replace one outlet -- I pulled it from the wall while live (don't
tell on me!) and I saw sparks coming from the internals of the outlet.
Replaced it, but that didn't solve the problem. I guess like I said
elsewhere it is time for "grunten and cranken." Cripes. I am sorely
tempted just to leave the old breaker in place and remove all the heavy
loads from the old circuit. Running two new grounded outlets, a real
bitch
in old houses like this, doesn't seem nearly as much work as has been
described in locating the fault.

What I really need is some way to remotely switch back and forth between
the
old breaker and the new AFCI one so I can see the effects of removing
loads
one at a time. I guess the reverse of that is to disconnect all loads,
power up the circuit and if it holds, add back the loads one at a time
until
I find the mutha frakker that is doing this. If the breaker even holds,
that is. If it doesn't that means doing what has already been described
by
Don and others. Digging the wires out of the wall. Not gonna happen.
If I
am going to tear up plaster, it is going to be to install new grounded
romex.

What a cluster-frak!

TKS

Start by unlugging EVERYTHING. If that fixes it, you are lucky - it's
likely not IN the wall. Then plug things in untill it trips. If
unplugging everything doesn't fix it, start disconnecting outlets.

That is generally what I am doing but I need to run extension cords from
other outlets to keep the router and other essential items running while I
test. What a cluster frak.

Remember the arc can be either a series arc or a parallel arc.

What is this? There is more than one type of arc monster to deal with? Say
it isn't so!

A series arc is an intermittent open in nature - a parallel ark is an
intermittent high impedence "short". Those can burn the house down
without a load attached and are the difficult ones to trace.

They all seem to be difficult to trace. I assume a partially inserted plug
causes a series fault while a nail through the wire causes a parallel one..
More reading to do.

I wish this stinker just worked when we turned the panel back on. He
charged me $750 for the panel replacement (20 breakers in all) and it took 6
hours. That seems to be a pretty good price for panel replacement and he
did a very neat job. This AFCI thing was just circumstances beyond anyone's
control. As ****ed off as I am by all the extra work that is involved, I
suppose I should be thankful that the AFCI discovered the arc fault, and not
the firemen.

Sometimes an old am transistor radio can detect the crackle - (couls
even work for series arc - I'd give it a try anyway!!

Now I feel like a Marconi operator listening for the Titanic sinking!

FWIW, I took the old main breaker out and it was certainly heat and
corrosion damaged. Very interesting how they put those things together. I
think it would have lasted another 20 years, though, because none of the
contact areas were very corroded. The problem was the broken set screw and
though we patched around it, the only way to repair it was to replace it.

Still, I am happy we replaced it even though my wallet is not.

TKS

Have you ever used a megger (Megohmmeter insulation tester)? I own one but the meters can be rented. It could be one thing you could to check the questionable circuit. You could compare readings from the good circuits to the bad one to give you some idea where the fault is. It should be a lot of fun.. ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megohmmeter

http://www.ehow.com/how_5202652_use-megohmmeter.html

[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:56:04 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

Sounds to me like it's time the OP withdraws a couple million dollars
from his huge bank account and build a new house.

But since he has an electrician buddy, why not just have him rewire that
entire circuit. Ripping walls apart is NOT the solution. Use WIREMOLD.
It all runs on the surface of walls, is code legal, and it can be
painted to match the walls.

Of course the first thing to do is unplug everything on that circuit,
then remove every outlet, switch and light fixture and look for any
problems. It could be as simple as a bad light fixture or outlet where
the neutral wire is contacting the metal box.
(Actually, if you find a problem, you (OP) may as well replace all the
outlets, switches and light fixtures since they were removed).

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 9:50:10 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:15:58 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

You could disconnect it in segments, one at a time, where you have
access, then see if it holds. First I'd pull out all the switches
and receptacles and see what's doing there. Any hard wired loads, eg
attic fan on it? I'd disconnect them. There probably is some
exotic tester that can do TDR or similar to find the fault, but
I don't think it's standard electrician issued stuff.

My electrician buddy didn't have a tester that could detect arc faults.
We've left it so that I have a week to figure out where the problem is and
that means, as you have noted, pulling everything I can from the circuit
until it stops tripping. It's a real nuisance because living room and
bedroom outlets with a lot of important devices are affected.

We reconnected the old plain breaker that wasn't affected by the arc fault
for now and I will disconnect everything I can (and temporarily move things
like the router to other circuits. Then we will reconnect the AFCI and see
if that cleared it. Then I will add back things to the re-enabled AFCI
circuit until the arc fault appears.

My buddy says that in his experience it turns out to be either a power strip
with a partially inserted plug or a back-stabbed outlet that's failing.
Disconnecting all the loads should tell us whether or not it's bad wiring in
the walls or outlets. What fun. I suspected there was going to an issue
replacing the panel. Just didn't expect this!


If it turns out to be one of the things you listed, I don't see it
as much of a problem. It's just unplugging loads, then pulling
receptacles and/or switches out. If the fault is somewhere other
than an accessible, known outlet, junction box, etc, then it's a
different story.



My electrician friend said that if it's a defect in the in-wall wiring that
it would probably be best to kill that circuit and run a new one with new
wiring and outlets. I tend to agree since this old circuit is cloth-covered
"ragwire" that has no ground. Perhaps it's time to decommission it.

Thanks for your help.

TKS

That's probably true, but then we can't see what shape the wiring is
really in either.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"Texas Kingsnake" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS


First thing is to swap wires at the breakers to make sure the new one is
not
faulty.

I am not sure that was done and you have got me thinking - one of the AFCI's
was different than the others - had a little green piece of plastic. I
wonder if a defective AFCI didn't get mixed into the bunch? I will have
him test it next time. The AFCI that popped has been pulled (still hanging
in the box because the pigtail neutral is buried on the first of the tiered
neutral bar connections) and replaced with the old breaker that doesn't
trip.

It's a real nuisance to go back and forth between the two - might have to
set up some jumpers so that I can easily change from AFCI to normal breaker
easily. Not sure how I would do that - a pigtail coming off the two
breakers that I can wire nut to the circuit hot wire?

TKS

Try switching wires at the panel with one of the other AFCI breakers.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 4:56:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture.
If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed.


It would seem more logical to work with the switches, receptacles,
and fixtures before cutting out and replacing the feed behind a plaster wall.
But, heh, that's me.

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 4:56:31 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:56:04 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

Sounds to me like it's time the OP withdraws a couple million dollars
from his huge bank account and build a new house.

But since he has an electrician buddy, why not just have him rewire that
entire circuit. Ripping walls apart is NOT the solution. Use WIREMOLD.
It all runs on the surface of walls, is code legal, and it can be
painted to match the walls.


And as an additional feature, it looks like hell. I might use it in
a mud room, but I wouldn't want it in my living room. And if it comes
to painting, might just as well patch and paint a few holes in the
wall, where necessary, IMO.



Of course the first thing to do is unplug everything on that circuit,
then remove every outlet, switch and light fixture and look for any
problems. It could be as simple as a bad light fixture or outlet where
the neutral wire is contacting the metal box.
(Actually, if you find a problem, you (OP) may as well replace all the
outlets, switches and light fixtures since they were removed).

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:20:32 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message


Someone on a electrical website suggested taking the AFCI breaker and
mounting it on a cord so I can plug it into outlets on the circuit and see
if it trips -- at least that way I can keep the circuit live on the old
breaker while testing for the location of the arc fault. Someone else said
the breaker wouldn't trip if it wasn't under load, even plugged into a
circuit with an arc fault.


I don't understand that test methodology at all. Which side of the
AFCI are they telling you to plug into the receptacle? And even if
somehow this could detect a fault and trip, so what? It tells you
that the fault is somewhere on the circuit, which you already know.



We did replace one outlet -- I pulled it from the wall while live (don't
tell on me!) and I saw sparks coming from the internals of the outlet.
Replaced it, but that didn't solve the problem. I guess like I said
elsewhere it is time for "grunten and cranken." Cripes. I am sorely
tempted just to leave the old breaker in place and remove all the heavy
loads from the old circuit. Running two new grounded outlets, a real bitch
in old houses like this, doesn't seem nearly as much work as has been
described in locating the fault.


You have an AFCI doing what it's supposed to do, tripping, indicating
that you have a potentially serious problem that could burn the house
down. And your reaction is to replace it with a regular breaker?



What I really need is some way to remotely switch back and forth between the
old breaker and the new AFCI one so I can see the effects of removing loads
one at a time. I guess the reverse of that is to disconnect all loads,
power up the circuit and if it holds, add back the loads one at a time until
I find the mutha frakker that is doing this. If the breaker even holds,
that is. If it doesn't that means doing what has already been described by
Don and others. Digging the wires out of the wall. Not gonna happen. If I
am going to tear up plaster, it is going to be to install new grounded
romex.

What a cluster-frak!

TKS

The circuit is daisy-chained. The logical thing to do is:

1 - Remove all the plug-in loads

2 - Pick a receptacle, switch, or junction box near the middle
of the run. Disconnect everything downstream and see if it still
trips. Then continue the process on the half that has the fault.

This isn't anywhere near as bad as you're making it sound, at least
not so far. I could have it isolated in an hour. You say isolating
the fault is more work than running two new receptacles? I doubt
that. And what good is running two new receptacles if you don't
know which parts of that existing circuit contain the fault?

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 12:51:01 AM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:04:09 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Have you checked to see if it could be a defective table lamp, light
fixture
or appliance. Some items that you may think that would never cause a
problem
are doorbell circuits or a clock radio. An engineer friend who worked for
the power company communications division would often track down RFI
caused
by doorbell transformers which were sizzling/arcing but not drawing
enough
current to burn up or trip a standard breaker. You may have a light left
on
in an attic or basement/crawlspace that has a burned center contact or
rivet
at the bottom of the socket shell that is arcing. I've seen all sorts of
weird crap cause problems in electrical and electronic circuits and only
discovered them by eliminating every possible cause. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

You have all laid out some serious detective work ahead. Nice to know
that
there are lots more things to look for. groan I think I have a pretty
good idea where to start looking.

Someone on a electrical website suggested taking the AFCI breaker and
mounting it on a cord so I can plug it into outlets on the circuit and
see
if it trips -- at least that way I can keep the circuit live on the old
breaker while testing for the location of the arc fault. Someone else
said
the breaker wouldn't trip if it wasn't under load, even plugged into a
circuit with an arc fault.

We did replace one outlet -- I pulled it from the wall while live (don't
tell on me!) and I saw sparks coming from the internals of the outlet.
Replaced it, but that didn't solve the problem. I guess like I said
elsewhere it is time for "grunten and cranken." Cripes. I am sorely
tempted just to leave the old breaker in place and remove all the heavy
loads from the old circuit. Running two new grounded outlets, a real
bitch
in old houses like this, doesn't seem nearly as much work as has been
described in locating the fault.

What I really need is some way to remotely switch back and forth between
the
old breaker and the new AFCI one so I can see the effects of removing
loads
one at a time. I guess the reverse of that is to disconnect all loads,
power up the circuit and if it holds, add back the loads one at a time
until
I find the mutha frakker that is doing this. If the breaker even holds,
that is. If it doesn't that means doing what has already been described
by
Don and others. Digging the wires out of the wall. Not gonna happen.
If I
am going to tear up plaster, it is going to be to install new grounded
romex.

What a cluster-frak!

TKS

Start by unlugging EVERYTHING. If that fixes it, you are lucky - it's
likely not IN the wall. Then plug things in untill it trips. If
unplugging everything doesn't fix it, start disconnecting outlets.

That is generally what I am doing but I need to run extension cords from
other outlets to keep the router and other essential items running while I
test. What a cluster frak.


Router can't be down for an hour? What did you do when you replaced
the panel?



Remember the arc can be either a series arc or a parallel arc.

What is this? There is more than one type of arc monster to deal with? Say
it isn't so!

A series arc is an intermittent open in nature - a parallel ark is an
intermittent high impedence "short". Those can burn the house down
without a load attached and are the difficult ones to trace.

They all seem to be difficult to trace. I assume a partially inserted plug
causes a series fault while a nail through the wire causes a parallel one.
More reading to do.

I wish this stinker just worked when we turned the panel back on. He
charged me $750 for the panel replacement (20 breakers in all) and it took 6
hours. That seems to be a pretty good price for panel replacement and he
did a very neat job. This AFCI thing was just circumstances beyond anyone's
control. As ****ed off as I am by all the extra work that is involved, I
suppose I should be thankful that the AFCI discovered the arc fault, and not
the firemen.


Since this is apparently so much trouble for you, why don't you just pay
your electrician buddy to fix the remaining problem?

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2016 10:17 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
It;s really not that bad! And, it's not really *hard* work. It's
FRUSTRATING because you can't see what you are doing... can't tell
if this is likely to be the problem, etc.

But, I'll wager you didn't hesitate the first time you tried to
unhook a bra strap "without seeing"! :

Funny you should say that. I just pull the shoulder straps down
simultaneously and keep pulling until it's down around the waist. The
change in diameter from shoulders to waist often unhooks the bra all by
itself. Either way, what needs to be accessed is accessible, if you
know
what I mean!

Ah, well I seem to recall sort of being "graded" on "technique".
So, the one-hand approach got the best appraisal!

It's all relative - one young lady exclaimed it was like have her "bodice
ripped" just like the potboiler paperbacks! Back when I went through
puberty girls weren't even wearing bras (wimmen's libbers)! Solved the
problem directly. Ah, the golden age of the Free Love seventies when a
woman was just as likely to undress YOU first. I don't recall ever having
to go through all the bases back then. Women on the street (not just on TV)
actually wore microskirts and see-through-blouses. Then came AIDS and
pantyhose and the party was over. But I "digest."

Of course, back then, it was much easier to impress.

EVERYTHING was easier back then, or so it seems to my aching back.

OTOH, I drove SWMBO for some labwork the other day and apparently
managed to "impress" the technician:
"Is that young man with you?"
"Yes."
"Lucky *you*!"

[I've learned that the only safe answer in these situations is
to SAY NOTHING!! : ]

Last weeks "Life in Pieces" (about the only good new sitcom I've found, 70
year old James Brolin gets his grey hair dyed jet black and restyled 70's
style. His wife is fine with it until they go shopping and the clerk says
something that ends in "your son." Then she says, "dye it back!"

I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one at
a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips
with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out to
see if
there is a load I missed.

First make sure the AFCI doesn't trip with NO WIRE attached to it!

Yep, that's on the list. I've decided to wire a SPDT switch between the
two
breakers (now that I have so many open slots) and the circuit wire --
temporarily. That way I can power the circuit through either breaker at
the
flip of a switch.

I'm not sure why you are adding a second breaker and then wanting to
switch
between them.

Well, because I have other things to do and not having light or power on
those circuits is problematic. I've shunted all the loads I can without
stringing the house with 50' extension cords -- a technique that has
remarklably low SWMBO approval ratings. I might rethink that as I get down
to real testing. Somehow, with the old breaker connected things seem far
less urgent than with that circuit dead. I was lying in bed (you apparently
don't sleep much, Buckaroo!) thinking -- got a new panel, got 5 working
AFCI's out of 6, got a new main breaker (part of the new panel) and
legitimate room for expansion -- so why beat myself up about one farking
AFCI breaker that might even be bad? We even down-graded a 15A circuit back
to a 15A breaker instead of the 20A that someone had put in. So things are
immeasurably better.

While it does bother me that there's something sizzling away in the walls or
somewhere it doesn't bother me so much that I was unable to fall asleep.
How DOES the AFCI figure out there's a bad connection out there?

Note that switches come in different contact configurations.
Be sure yours is "break before make" else you can end up shorting one
"side" of the switch (i.e., one of the "DT"s) to the other as the
armature travels from one position to the other. The short will persist
for one or two ohnoseconds... long enough for a profound "Ooops!"

Got a huge, ancient porcelain-based knife switch that HAS to be break before
make. But there's a lot of exposed copper which makes it probably more
dangerous than an enclosed switch. How do you tell if it's make before
break? Why would anyone ever want to make before break unless the circuit
can not tolerate being unloaded?

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new
circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big
freaking
hurry. frown

Time for a nap. A 6:00AM day, tomorrow (whoever invented AM should be
taken
out, beaten until bloody, then shot -- repeatedly!!)

This situation has a built in nag factor. My buddy said he would come back
when I had traced the arc fault down so I probably have to show a good faith
effort. He was unhappy about leaving the breaker hanging and the cover off
but I told him I was just going to uncover it anyway and leaving it hanging
would make swapping it out faster.

AFTER he installs the box he tells me that new AFCI panels have an extra
neutral rail -- no more farking pigtails. I asked why we didn't use that
and he said so we could reuse the old (actually quite new) breakers. So I
agreed.

It would have been nice to get one of those smart panels but you would never
recapture that expense upon resale and I am not sure knowing how much juice
every circuit is using would be useful. At least I think that's what a
smart panel does -- now that I think about it, I am not sure.

TKS

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 00:01:30 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:54:14 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the
panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the
panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

I suggested swapping breakers but by that time my buddy wanted to get
home
and so we'll do it next time. Right now it's back on the old, plain
breaker
that doesn't trip while I shunt the current loads on that circuit over to
other, nearby outlets. I suppose if I move the loads to one of the new
AFCI
enabled circuits and that one trips, I've found the culprit.

I guess this is a good thing (revealing an arc fault that was unknown
until
now) but it sure seems like it is going to become a major pain in the
ass.

In the meantime, since we had to rearrange a number of breakers to
accommodate the old, short ragwire connections, I need to check each
circuit
one at a time to correctly ID it in the panel. We did the best we could
to
preserve the old numbering but it is time to double check things.

I guess now I will be marking outlets with a circuit number and a letter
to
indicate which one preceeds another. That isn't going to be easy nor
accomplished without disturbing an awful lot of existing wiring -- and
the
plaster covering it, too. Sheesh. Goes to show that no good deed goes
unpunished. Never expected to hit this sort of problem.

TKS

Get yerself a "fox and hound" tester. Turn off the breaker and plug
the fox into one of the outlets and set the hound loose - tracing the
wires from that outlet both ways - back to the panel and on to the end
if you didn't manage to find the last outlet in the string. If you
have metal lathe in your plaster it will make things more difficult,
but not necessarily impossible.

Got one today based on a suggestion from a web forum. So far all I know is
the wire from the troubled circuit leaves the box and heads right into a
bundle of other wires heading into the attic. I wasn't able to trace to
anything I didn't already know by inspection when the breaker's off. Crap!

More importantly, this is one of the old "ragwires" and I don't know how
much more connecting and disconnecting from the breaker it is going to
stand. I may have to pigtail a wire from each of the two different types of
breaker and switch between them using heavy duty insulated alligator clips
on a jumper wire. I don't want to add a broken wire to my other troubles.

TKS

Anything short of a firlmy clamped (screwed) connection is liable to
GIVE you an arc fault

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 00:29:06 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:



I wish this stinker just worked when we turned the panel back on. He
charged me $750 for the panel replacement (20 breakers in all) and it took 6
hours. That seems to be a pretty good price for panel replacement and he
did a very neat job. This AFCI thing was just circumstances beyond anyone's
control. As ****ed off as I am by all the extra work that is involved, I
suppose I should be thankful that the AFCI discovered the arc fault, and not
the firemen.

You got away easy.
My panel replacement and GFCI upgrades, including 1 AFCI and several 2
pole GFCI breakers and 4 GFCI outlets - 125 amp panel, and inspections
didn't give me much change from $3G

Sometimes an old am transistor radio can detect the crackle - (couls
even work for series arc - I'd give it a try anyway!!

Now I feel like a Marconi operator listening for the Titanic sinking!

FWIW, I took the old main breaker out and it was certainly heat and
corrosion damaged. Very interesting how they put those things together. I
think it would have lasted another 20 years, though, because none of the
contact areas were very corroded. The problem was the broken set screw and
though we patched around it, the only way to repair it was to replace it.

Still, I am happy we replaced it even though my wallet is not.

TKS

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 03:56:20 -0600, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:56:04 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:57:46 -0500, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker panel with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I* stood around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the panel for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the panel back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster walls and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW, it's not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a word for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

Cut out the feed that runs up the wall behind the plaster and replace
it with new cable Bypassing that old chunk of wire eliminates it as a
cause. If it still trips, remove EVERY device fastened to that
circuit. Pull every switch, receptacle,and fixture. If it still trips
rewire more untill you have it fixed. (you DID try disconnecting the
circuit from the AFCI in the panel to be sure it's not a defective
AFCI - right???)

Sounds to me like it's time the OP withdraws a couple million dollars
from his huge bank account and build a new house.

But since he has an electrician buddy, why not just have him rewire that
entire circuit. Ripping walls apart is NOT the solution. Use WIREMOLD.
It all runs on the surface of walls, is code legal, and it can be
painted to match the walls.

Wiremold is my LAST choice when doing that work. I'll pull a feed up a
chase into the attic, and drill down from the attic to existing boxes
before I'll install that eysore in my house. I grew up helping my dad
on rewires and rural electrification, and he'd pull wires into places
you would consider impossible, making very few small holes in walls.
When he wired our first house in town (88 years old in 1957) he lifted
a few floorboards in the upstairs (no attic - 1 1/2 storey house) and
did all the wiring either from there or the basement.

I learned a few tricks from him!!

Of course the first thing to do is unplug everything on that circuit,
then remove every outlet, switch and light fixture and look for any
problems. It could be as simple as a bad light fixture or outlet where
the neutral wire is contacting the metal box.
(Actually, if you find a problem, you (OP) may as well replace all the
outlets, switches and light fixtures since they were removed).

On 2/23/2016 8:27 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
OTOH, I drove SWMBO for some labwork the other day and apparently
managed to "impress" the technician:
"Is that young man with you?"
"Yes."
"Lucky *you*!"

[I've learned that the only safe answer in these situations is
to SAY NOTHING!! : ]

Last weeks "Life in Pieces" (about the only good new sitcom I've found, 70
year old James Brolin gets his grey hair dyed jet black and restyled 70's
style. His wife is fine with it until they go shopping and the clerk says
something that ends in "your son." Then she says, "dye it back!"

frown I am firmly convinced that people simply "don't think".

I "get carded" probably 30% of the time, now. I don't consider it
"flattering" -- rather, I consider it a nuisance (cuz I have to take
my license out and CONCENTRATE on remembering to put it back as it
is NEVER "out"). You'd think folks would notice the grey in my
hair, snow white beard, etc.

Nope.

My latest strategy in situations like that is to walk in with an
"old guy scowl" on my face. Maybe *then* they'll realize my age!

But, doesn't help with the casual interactions -- when you aren't
deliberately trying to convince people you are old.

[There are places I won't go cuz gang-bangers flash signs at me -- no
doubt expecting me to "reciprocate" (secret handshake?) As I have
absolutely NO idea what the correct response is in these situations,
I figure my ignorance could get me KILLED! "Hey, kid... I'm old
enough to be your grandfather!"]

I'm not sure why you are adding a second breaker and then wanting to switch
between them.

Well, because I have other things to do and not having light or power on
those circuits is problematic.

I thought it was a single branch circuit?

I've shunted all the loads I can without
stringing the house with 50' extension cords -- a technique that has
remarklably low SWMBO approval ratings. I might rethink that as I get down
to real testing. Somehow, with the old breaker connected things seem far
less urgent than with that circuit dead. I was lying in bed (you apparently
don't sleep much, Buckaroo!) thinking -- got a new panel, got 5 working
AFCI's out of 6, got a new main breaker (part of the new panel) and
legitimate room for expansion -- so why beat myself up about one farking
AFCI breaker that might even be bad?

Test the breaker (no load or swap with another AFCI breaker). That puts
that issue to bed.

If a protective device is telling you that you have a problem, then
YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!

E.g., the CHECK ENGINE light doesn't come on just to get you to
open the hood periodically!

We even down-graded a 15A circuit back
to a 15A breaker instead of the 20A that someone had put in. So things are
immeasurably better.

While it does bother me that there's something sizzling away in the walls or
somewhere it doesn't bother me so much that I was unable to fall asleep.
How DOES the AFCI figure out there's a bad connection out there?

Argh! This is a bit "involved" for a DIY group. :
Essentially, the AFCI looks at the current waveform over time
(in relation to the voltage waveform) and notes anomalies in
the LOAD as reflected by these waveforms.

E.g., a purely resistive load (toaster) produces a current
waveform that is just a scaled down version of the voltage waveform
at EVERY instant. I.e., if the voltage is V and the resistance of
the load is R then the current WILL BE V/R. As the voltage fluctuates
up and down, positive and negative ("AC" - alternating current) the
current waveform does exactly the same thing -- but on a smaller scale
(the larger R, the smaller the current).

A "reactive" load (capacitor/inductor) causes the current waveform
to shift, in time, with respect to the voltage waveform. So, the
current may "peak" before or after the voltage peak.

(the phase shift varies based on the characteristics of the load
and the "scale" of the waveform varies as a function of it's
resistive characteristics).

Things like computer power supplies and electronic dimmers
(both very common) are a third class of beast. E.g., in
a dimmer, there is typically NO load (current) until some
point (in time -- remember, the voltage is CYCLING every
1/60 of a second) at which point the load appears (because
a switching device inside the dimmer "turns on" to connect the
load to the power source). The load remains connected until
the end of the cycle -- when the voltage drops to zero the
switch automatically "opens" and the process repeats. By
arranging to "turn on" later in the cycle, there is a smaller
portion of the electricity that would be available in that
cycle presented to the load -- the light dims. Turning on EARLIER
means more of the electricity ("duty cycle") is available to
the load so the light gets brighter.

[ditto for controls on electric heaters!]

A computer power supply is similar (more or less).

In each of these cases, there is NO CURRENT until something
turns on (in the computer power supply or dimmer) to suck
power out of the AC main. And, this continues until the
very end of that 1/60th second "cycle".

For an *arc*, there is no current flowing until enough voltage
is available in the AC cycle to "bridge the gap" (spark/arc).
The current then continues to flow until the voltage falls
to a point where it can't sustain the arc across that gap.
I.e., the current goes away *before* the voltage drops to
zero -- unlike the dimmer that kept current flowing until
it REACHED zero!

[believe it or not, this is a SIMPLISTIC explanation :
Some AFCI's actually have little computers in them that
are making these decisions, one AC mains cycle at a time!]

Note that switches come in different contact configurations.
Be sure yours is "break before make" else you can end up shorting one
"side" of the switch (i.e., one of the "DT"s) to the other as the
armature travels from one position to the other. The short will persist
for one or two ohnoseconds... long enough for a profound "Ooops!"

Got a huge, ancient porcelain-based knife switch that HAS to be break before
make. But there's a lot of exposed copper which makes it probably more
dangerous than an enclosed switch. How do you tell if it's make before
break?

Knife switch is really easy to determine! : Other switches will
state this in their product specifications.

Why would anyone ever want to make before break unless the circuit
can not tolerate being unloaded?

That's one reason. It could also be that the design relies on
this connection during the transition (note I am speaking of switches
in general, not "home electricity" specifically)

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new
circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big
freaking
hurry. frown

Time for a nap. A 6:00AM day, tomorrow (whoever invented AM should be
taken
out, beaten until bloody, then shot -- repeatedly!!)

This situation has a built in nag factor. My buddy said he would come back
when I had traced the arc fault down so I probably have to show a good faith
effort. He was unhappy about leaving the breaker hanging and the cover off
but I told him I was just going to uncover it anyway and leaving it hanging
would make swapping it out faster.

If you *die*, he may have some questions to answer -- esp if he's
licensed! At the very least, he'll have one ****ed off wife to
contend with! (er, maybe HAPPY wife?? ;-)

AFTER he installs the box he tells me that new AFCI panels have an extra
neutral rail -- no more farking pigtails. I asked why we didn't use that
and he said so we could reuse the old (actually quite new) breakers. So I
agreed.

It would have been nice to get one of those smart panels but you would never
recapture that expense upon resale and I am not sure knowing how much juice
every circuit is using would be useful. At least I think that's what a
smart panel does -- now that I think about it, I am not sure.

TKS

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 9:50:10 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:15:58 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake
wrote:
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker
panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I*
stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the
panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the
panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a
word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS

You could disconnect it in segments, one at a time, where you have
access, then see if it holds. First I'd pull out all the switches
and receptacles and see what's doing there. Any hard wired loads, eg
attic fan on it? I'd disconnect them. There probably is some
exotic tester that can do TDR or similar to find the fault, but
I don't think it's standard electrician issued stuff.

My electrician buddy didn't have a tester that could detect arc faults.
We've left it so that I have a week to figure out where the problem is
and
that means, as you have noted, pulling everything I can from the circuit
until it stops tripping. It's a real nuisance because living room and
bedroom outlets with a lot of important devices are affected.

We reconnected the old plain breaker that wasn't affected by the arc
fault
for now and I will disconnect everything I can (and temporarily move
things
like the router to other circuits. Then we will reconnect the AFCI and
see
if that cleared it. Then I will add back things to the re-enabled AFCI
circuit until the arc fault appears.

My buddy says that in his experience it turns out to be either a power
strip
with a partially inserted plug or a back-stabbed outlet that's failing.
Disconnecting all the loads should tell us whether or not it's bad
wiring in
the walls or outlets. What fun. I suspected there was going to an
issue
replacing the panel. Just didn't expect this!


If it turns out to be one of the things you listed, I don't see it
as much of a problem. It's just unplugging loads, then pulling
receptacles and/or switches out. If the fault is somewhere other
than an accessible, known outlet, junction box, etc, then it's a
different story.

It seems to be a different story. There is a LOT of stuff blocking places I
need to get to. A huge antique sideboard that takes 4 men to lift is
blocking one outlet and the other is behind an equally bulky dresser.

My electrician friend said that if it's a defect in the in-wall wiring
that
it would probably be best to kill that circuit and run a new one with
new
wiring and outlets. I tend to agree since this old circuit is
cloth-covered
"ragwire" that has no ground. Perhaps it's time to decommission it.

Thanks for your help.

TKS

That's probably true, but then we can't see what shape the wiring is
really in either.

The old wiring is ungrounded and well over 50 years old. It is run from the
basement into an uninsulated wall cavity, then up to the attic (loaded with
boxes of the cardboard type) and then down through the wall to the boxes.
Both outlets on the problem circuit are on the outside wall where they are
exposed to temperature variants and condensation. Moving what's in front of
them won't be easy for me. I don't think I could do it even with my friend
helping. That's why this is such a bitch.

As I said before, running new, 20A grounded circuits is actually easier
because there are areas where I can use my HF oscillating tool to excavate
some plaster for a new outlet and drill through the floor a lot faster than
moving heavy stuff around in an attempt to preserve an old, 15A ungrounded
cable run. Old plumbing and wiring do NOT like to be bothered much.

I've also read that the arcing can be caused by bad wire nuts and they are
in metal boxes which would limit ignition possibilities. So I am going to
just plod along, map out the circuit as best I can. If removing all loads
doesn't clear the problem, I will kill the problem circuit and run two new
ones. I didn't know until this happened that the bedroom and living room
outlets (actually just half of them) share a breaker. I would rather have
both served by separate grounded outlets and breakers.

TKS

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/23/2016 8:27 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
OTOH, I drove SWMBO for some labwork the other day and apparently
managed to "impress" the technician:
"Is that young man with you?"
"Yes."
"Lucky *you*!"

[I've learned that the only safe answer in these situations is
to SAY NOTHING!! : ]

Last weeks "Life in Pieces" (about the only good new sitcom I've found,
70
year old James Brolin gets his grey hair dyed jet black and restyled
70's
style. His wife is fine with it until they go shopping and the clerk
says
something that ends in "your son." Then she says, "dye it back!"

frown I am firmly convinced that people simply "don't think".

I "get carded" probably 30% of the time, now. I don't consider it
"flattering" -- rather, I consider it a nuisance (cuz I have to take
my license out and CONCENTRATE on remembering to put it back as it
is NEVER "out"). You'd think folks would notice the grey in my
hair, snow white beard, etc.

Lucky you. I get asked "don't you want the senior's discount?"

Nope.

My latest strategy in situations like that is to walk in with an
"old guy scowl" on my face. Maybe *then* they'll realize my age!

But, doesn't help with the casual interactions -- when you aren't
deliberately trying to convince people you are old.

[There are places I won't go cuz gang-bangers flash signs at me -- no
doubt expecting me to "reciprocate" (secret handshake?) As I have
absolutely NO idea what the correct response is in these situations,
I figure my ignorance could get me KILLED! "Hey, kid... I'm old
enough to be your grandfather!"]

I'm not sure why you are adding a second breaker and then wanting to
switch
between them.

Well, because I have other things to do and not having light or power on
those circuits is problematic.

I thought it was a single branch circuit?

With lights AND outlets on it. Not the way they do things now, apparently.

I've shunted all the loads I can without
stringing the house with 50' extension cords -- a technique that has
remarklably low SWMBO approval ratings. I might rethink that as I get
down
to real testing. Somehow, with the old breaker connected things seem
far
less urgent than with that circuit dead. I was lying in bed (you
apparently
don't sleep much, Buckaroo!) thinking -- got a new panel, got 5 working
AFCI's out of 6, got a new main breaker (part of the new panel) and
legitimate room for expansion -- so why beat myself up about one farking
AFCI breaker that might even be bad?

Test the breaker (no load or swap with another AFCI breaker). That puts
that issue to bed.

Gotta wait for my buddy. I probably could swap out a breaker myself but ...

If a protective device is telling you that you have a problem, then
YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!

Yea, yea, I know. smile

E.g., the CHECK ENGINE light doesn't come on just to get you to
open the hood periodically!

This is more like I just got a check engine light installed in a car that's
got 200K miles on it. Someone elsewhere suggested that I take EVERY breaker
wire on the panel and connect it, one after the other, to an AFCI breaker
just to test for ground faults on circuits other than the ones I've decided
to use them on. Sounds like a great idea but I don't have the time right
now.

We even down-graded a 15A circuit back
to a 15A breaker instead of the 20A that someone had put in. So things
are
immeasurably better.

While it does bother me that there's something sizzling away in the
walls or
somewhere it doesn't bother me so much that I was unable to fall asleep.
How DOES the AFCI figure out there's a bad connection out there?

Argh! This is a bit "involved" for a DIY group. :
Essentially, the AFCI looks at the current waveform over time
(in relation to the voltage waveform) and notes anomalies in
the LOAD as reflected by these waveforms.

E.g., a purely resistive load (toaster) produces a current
waveform that is just a scaled down version of the voltage waveform
at EVERY instant. I.e., if the voltage is V and the resistance of
the load is R then the current WILL BE V/R. As the voltage fluctuates
up and down, positive and negative ("AC" - alternating current) the
current waveform does exactly the same thing -- but on a smaller scale
(the larger R, the smaller the current).

A "reactive" load (capacitor/inductor) causes the current waveform
to shift, in time, with respect to the voltage waveform. So, the
current may "peak" before or after the voltage peak.

(the phase shift varies based on the characteristics of the load
and the "scale" of the waveform varies as a function of it's
resistive characteristics).

Things like computer power supplies and electronic dimmers
(both very common) are a third class of beast. E.g., in
a dimmer, there is typically NO load (current) until some
point (in time -- remember, the voltage is CYCLING every
1/60 of a second) at which point the load appears (because
a switching device inside the dimmer "turns on" to connect the
load to the power source). The load remains connected until
the end of the cycle -- when the voltage drops to zero the
switch automatically "opens" and the process repeats. By
arranging to "turn on" later in the cycle, there is a smaller
portion of the electricity that would be available in that
cycle presented to the load -- the light dims. Turning on EARLIER
means more of the electricity ("duty cycle") is available to
the load so the light gets brighter.

[ditto for controls on electric heaters!]

A computer power supply is similar (more or less).

In each of these cases, there is NO CURRENT until something
turns on (in the computer power supply or dimmer) to suck
power out of the AC main. And, this continues until the
very end of that 1/60th second "cycle".

For an *arc*, there is no current flowing until enough voltage
is available in the AC cycle to "bridge the gap" (spark/arc).
The current then continues to flow until the voltage falls
to a point where it can't sustain the arc across that gap.
I.e., the current goes away *before* the voltage drops to
zero -- unlike the dimmer that kept current flowing until
it REACHED zero!

[believe it or not, this is a SIMPLISTIC explanation :
Some AFCI's actually have little computers in them that
are making these decisions, one AC mains cycle at a time!]

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It is actually doing
waveform comparison with stuff I assume is stored in some sort of memory.

Note that switches come in different contact configurations.
Be sure yours is "break before make" else you can end up shorting one
"side" of the switch (i.e., one of the "DT"s) to the other as the
armature travels from one position to the other. The short will
persist
for one or two ohnoseconds... long enough for a profound "Ooops!"

Got a huge, ancient porcelain-based knife switch that HAS to be break
before
make. But there's a lot of exposed copper which makes it probably more
dangerous than an enclosed switch. How do you tell if it's make before
break?

Knife switch is really easy to determine! : Other switches will
state this in their product specifications.

Oddly enough there don't seem to be a lot of spec manuals in my box full of
switches. Not immensely keen on wiring a switch anyway. The issue is that
I've got a twitchy TKR that makes stair climbing an adventure in wondering
when the knee will seize up again. And clearing this fault is like a bad
code segment:

WHILE NOT fixed DO:
Futz with something
Go back downstairs and try to reset the breaker
IF it holds
Fixed = true
ELSE
Try something else
ENDIF
ENDDO

Why would anyone ever want to make before break unless the circuit
can not tolerate being unloaded?

That's one reason. It could also be that the design relies on
this connection during the transition (note I am speaking of switches
in general, not "home electricity" specifically)

I get that. I figure a big alligator jumper wire is as bad a choice as a
huge porcelain knife switch. I might just have to have my buddy come back
to help me run this down and to check the other circuits for arc faults. At
least some good is coming out of all this writing.

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new
circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big
freaking
hurry. frown

Time for a nap. A 6:00AM day, tomorrow (whoever invented AM should be
taken
out, beaten until bloody, then shot -- repeatedly!!)

This situation has a built in nag factor. My buddy said he would come
back
when I had traced the arc fault down so I probably have to show a good
faith
effort. He was unhappy about leaving the breaker hanging and the cover
off
but I told him I was just going to uncover it anyway and leaving it
hanging
would make swapping it out faster.

If you *die*, he may have some questions to answer -- esp if he's
licensed!

He was never here and this never happened. Why do you think it was only
$750!!??

At the very least, he'll have one ****ed off wife to
contend with! (er, maybe HAPPY wife?? ;-)

Yeah, not sure which way that cookie would crumble.

TKS

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:20:51 PM UTC-6, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2016 9:17 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Gawd! Every message I have read today just adds to the list of
monsters
that might be hiding under the walls.

It;s really not that bad! And, it's not really *hard* work. It's
FRUSTRATING because you can't see what you are doing... can't tell
if this is likely to be the problem, etc.

But, I'll wager you didn't hesitate the first time you tried to
unhook a bra strap "without seeing"! :

Funny you should say that. I just pull the shoulder straps down
simultaneously and keep pulling until it's down around the waist. The
change in diameter from shoulders to waist often unhooks the bra all by
itself. Either way, what needs to be accessed is accessible, if you
know
what I mean!

I hope when all the possible loads
are removed, the arc fault disappears and I can add things back one
at a
time until it pops. Not sure what I will do if the AFCI still trips
with no
detectable loads. I suppose that when I get the clamp ammeter out
to
see if
there is a load I missed.

First make sure the AFCI doesn't trip with NO WIRE attached to it!

Yep, that's on the list. I've decided to wire a SPDT switch between the
two
breakers (now that I have so many open slots) and the circuit wire --
temporarily. That way I can power the circuit through either breaker at
the
flip of a switch.

The fox and hound tester might be useful elsewhere, but it wasn't very
useful in this situation. If the break is in the walls, a whole new
circuit
will be pulled. Great Caesar's ghost this got complicated in a big
freaking
hurry. frown

TKS

I could never reach behind my back to hook or unhook a bra so I gave up on
trying to wear one. Of course I lost a lot of weight and the man boobs went
away so I don't need a bra. ^_^

Seinfeld: The Mansierre

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-5, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"Texas Kingsnake" wrote in message
...
Gentlemen and women:

I am not sure if you all remember, but I had the circuit breaker
panel
with
the bad aluminum feeder cable that was shooting sparks.

We finally put the new panel in yesterday -- by *we* I mean *I*
stood
around
while my electrician buddy did the work. We used 6 AFCI's in the
panel
for
the bedroom and kitchen circuits. When it came time to power the
panel
back
up, AFCI breaker number 6 refused to latch.

Here is the big question: How do you locate the arc fault that's
tripping
the breaker? In this old house the wire is buried deep in plaster
walls
and
routed from the basement up to the attic and back down again, FWIW,
it's
not
K&T, just old cloth-covered wiring from the 40's. My buddy had a
word
for
it I had never heard before -- ragwire.

TKS


First thing is to swap wires at the breakers to make sure the new one
is
not
faulty.

I am not sure that was done and you have got me thinking - one of the
AFCI's
was different than the others - had a little green piece of plastic. I
wonder if a defective AFCI didn't get mixed into the bunch? I will
have
him test it next time. The AFCI that popped has been pulled (still
hanging
in the box because the pigtail neutral is buried on the first of the
tiered
neutral bar connections) and replaced with the old breaker that doesn't
trip.

It's a real nuisance to go back and forth between the two - might have
to
set up some jumpers so that I can easily change from AFCI to normal
breaker
easily. Not sure how I would do that - a pigtail coming off the two
breakers that I can wire nut to the circuit hot wire?

TKS

Try switching wires at the panel with one of the other AFCI breakers.

When I can get my friend back (he's doing me a big favor so I don't want to
abuse that) we will disconnected, temporarily, ALL the non-AFCI circuits,
one after the other, through an AFCI that we know works.

If we found one circuit out of 14 with an arc fault using only 6 AFCI
breakers, statistically speaking we should find at least another circuit
with an arc fault. That is when we will swap breakers as you and others
have suggested.

TKS