I have often thought about this question, and I may have even participated
in discussions about it before. It is about something that I just can't get
myself to fully understand, even though I try to think of what is going on
and how I think it "should" be working. So, I am looking for people who ca
"splain-it" to me in a way that I can understand.

Here's the scenario:

I have a 2nd floor bathroom sink drain. The sink has a typical 1 11/4 inch
drain in it and has an overflow preventer port near the top of the sink.
The drain line under the sink is a 1 - 1/4 inch chrome drain line P-trap
that goes back into the wall. From there it makes a 90 degree turn down and
goes down about 18-inches to just below the floor line. Then it makes
another 90 degree turn to be virtually horizontal along the underside of the
bathroom floor and goes about 8 feet and ties into the side of the 4-inch
cast iron toilet drain under the toilet. Everything from the point inside
the wall behind the sink and down and across under the floor to the toilet
drain is approx 1 - 1/4 inch lead pipe with a horizontal curve in it to make
the trip to the 4-inch cast iron toilet drain.

The sink is often very slow to drain. I have used a 50 foot 1/4-in snake to
clean it out, which always helps -- at least for a while, But doing so is
not easy due to all of the turns it has to make to get through the P-trap,
down into the wall, and across to the toilet 4-inch cast iron drain. To
make things easier, a few days ago, I cut into the horizontal piece of the
P-trap and installed a coupling that I can easily disconnect. When I
disconnect that coupling, the 15 fool 1/4-snake goes in easily, makes the 90
degree turn down easily, and makes the final 90-degree to horizontal and
easily goes across to the end of the line where it drains into the 4-inch
cast iron toilet drain line.

So, I was able to easily clean that line out that way. And, with the snake
all the way in, I even slide the coupling and P-trap parts over the
beginning (back) end of the snake and run the snake up through the sink
drain. Then, I reconnected everything, ran hot water in the sink, and
continued cleaning the drain out by pulling the 15-foot snake out and up
through the drain with the hot water flowing to clean out the crud.

That worked (again), and the drain now drains quickly.

Meanwhile, here is my question:

Even though I did this, when the sink drains, I still hear a glub-glub
sound. It's the same type of sound that one hears when pouring gas out of a
gas can that does not have an open air vent in the back of the can. When
pouring gas out of the gas can with the air vent open, there is no glub-glub
sound -- meaning the gas goes out and air goes in behind it; therefore no
glub-glub.

But, why wouldn't my sink draining operate the same as pouring gas out of a
gas can with the air vent open -- with no glub-glub sound? When the sink is
draining, the drain is open at the top and air can get in (just like having
the gas can air vent open). So, why doesn't; that eliminate the glub-glub
sound when the sink is draining into an open 4-inch cast iron toilet stack?

P.S. I have the ceiling completely open below the bathroom sink and tub, so
I have an easy view and easy access to all of the drain line systems that
are there. And, my plan is to re-do those drain lines in a better way that
I know will completely resolve the problem. But, I am still curious why I
am getting the glub-glub sound now when the sink drains into this open
vessel (cast iron stack) with an open air inlet at the top (meaning the sink
drain itself).

On 02/18/2016 08:28 AM, TomR wrote:


snip
?

P.S. I have the ceiling completely open below the bathroom sink and tub, so
I have an easy view and easy access to all of the drain line systems that
are there. And, my plan is to re-do those drain lines in a better way that
I know will completely resolve the problem. But, I am still curious why I
am getting the glub-glub sound now when the sink drains into this open
vessel (cast iron stack) with an open air inlet at the top (meaning the sink
drain itself).





But is your roof air vent blocked in anyway? leaves, dead squirrel etc

In ,
philo typed:
On 02/18/2016 08:28 AM, TomR wrote:

snip

P.S. I have the ceiling completely open below the bathroom sink and
tub, so I have an easy view and easy access to all of the drain line
systems that are there. And, my plan is to re-do those drain lines
in a better way that I know will completely resolve the problem. But, I
am still curious why I am getting the glub-glub sound now
when the sink drains into this open vessel (cast iron stack) with an
open air inlet at the top (meaning the sink drain itself).

But is your roof air vent blocked in anyway? leaves, dead squirrel
etc

Thanks, but I did check that and there is no blockage in the stack that goes
up through the roof. Plus, I think that if the stack had a blockage, the
same glub-glub symptoms would occur when the tub drains, the toilet flushes,
or the first floor kitchen sink drains out. But, none of the other fixtures
have that symptom -- just the bathroom sink. And, even if the 4-inch the
stack was blocked, I would think that the 1 - 1/4 inch sink drain into the
4-inch cast iron still would not cause the glub-glub because the stack would
not be full of drain water -- it would just be running down the side inside
the 4-inch stack.

Here is a photo of the open ceiling on the first floor looking up to the
base of the bathroom toilet.


http://i67.tinypic.com/9sb3o1.jpg



The toilet sits on the floor about near the area of the center of the photo.
Then the toilet drain curves down toward the bottom of the photo where it
ties into the main stack that goes down through the wall.


The curved lead pipe near the center of the photo is the bathroom sink where
it ties into the toilet drain. The less curved lead pipe that ties into the
toilet sewer drain closer to the bottom of the picture is the tub drain.
The tub drain does not do the glub-glub routine when the tub is draining.

Again, this is more of a curiosity thing, and a trying to understand the
physics of the water flow thing, for me than anything else. My plan in any
case is to replace the existing lead drain lines with PVC, and I will be
routing them down a different wall and tying them into the sewer drain line
in the basement.

TomR wrote:
I have often thought about this question, and I may have even
participated in discussions about it before. It is about something
that I just can't get myself to fully understand, even though I try
to think of what is going on and how I think it "should" be working. So, I
am looking for people who ca "splain-it" to me in a way that I
can understand.
Here's the scenario:

I have a 2nd floor bathroom sink drain. The sink has a typical 1 11/4
inch drain in it and has an overflow preventer port near the top of
the sink. The drain line under the sink is a 1 - 1/4 inch chrome
drain line P-trap that goes back into the wall. From there it makes
a 90 degree turn down and goes down about 18-inches to just below the
floor line. Then it makes another 90 degree turn to be virtually
horizontal along the underside of the bathroom floor and goes about 8
feet and ties into the side of the 4-inch cast iron toilet drain
under the toilet. Everything from the point inside the wall behind
the sink and down and across under the floor to the toilet drain is
approx 1 - 1/4 inch lead pipe with a horizontal curve in it to make
the trip to the 4-inch cast iron toilet drain.
The sink is often very slow to drain. I have used a 50 foot 1/4-in
snake to clean it out, which always helps -- at least for a while, But
doing so is not easy due to all of the turns it has to make to
get through the P-trap, down into the wall, and across to the toilet
4-inch cast iron drain. To make things easier, a few days ago, I cut
into the horizontal piece of the P-trap and installed a coupling that
I can easily disconnect. When I disconnect that coupling, the 15
fool 1/4-snake goes in easily, makes the 90 degree turn down easily,
and makes the final 90-degree to horizontal and easily goes across to
the end of the line where it drains into the 4-inch cast iron toilet
drain line.
So, I was able to easily clean that line out that way. And, with the
snake all the way in, I even slide the coupling and P-trap parts over
the beginning (back) end of the snake and run the snake up through
the sink drain. Then, I reconnected everything, ran hot water in the
sink, and continued cleaning the drain out by pulling the 15-foot
snake out and up through the drain with the hot water flowing to
clean out the crud.
That worked (again), and the drain now drains quickly.

Meanwhile, here is my question:

Even though I did this, when the sink drains, I still hear a glub-glub
sound. It's the same type of sound that one hears when pouring gas
out of a gas can that does not have an open air vent in the back of
the can. When pouring gas out of the gas can with the air vent open,
there is no glub-glub sound -- meaning the gas goes out and air goes
in behind it; therefore no glub-glub.

But, why wouldn't my sink draining operate the same as pouring gas
out of a gas can with the air vent open -- with no glub-glub sound? When
the sink is draining, the drain is open at the top and air can
get in (just like having the gas can air vent open). So, why
doesn't; that eliminate the glub-glub sound when the sink is draining
into an open 4-inch cast iron toilet stack?
P.S. I have the ceiling completely open below the bathroom sink and
tub, so I have an easy view and easy access to all of the drain line
systems that are there. And, my plan is to re-do those drain lines
in a better way that I know will completely resolve the problem. But, I am
still curious why I am getting the glub-glub sound now when
the sink drains into this open vessel (cast iron stack) with an open
air inlet at the top (meaning the sink drain itself).

Either their is no roof vent or it is blocked. The drain opening in the
sink isn't a vent...the drain fills with water, air tries to enter through
the sink opening; result, glub-glub.

BTW, there was no need to modify the P-trap for your snake. It is easy to
just take off the P-trap by unscrewing the two nuts that hold it to the
drain and pipe into the wall.

In ,
dadiOH typed:
TomR wrote:

Meanwhile, here is my question:

Even though I did this, when the sink drains, I still hear a
glub-glub sound. It's the same type of sound that one hears when
pouring gas out of a gas can that does not have an open air vent in the
back of
the can. When pouring gas out of the gas can with the air vent open,
there is no glub-glub sound -- meaning the gas goes out and air goes
in behind it; therefore no glub-glub.

But, why wouldn't my sink draining operate the same as pouring gas
out of a gas can with the air vent open -- with no glub-glub sound?
When the sink is draining, the drain is open at the top and air can
get in (just like having the gas can air vent open). So, why
doesn't; that eliminate the glub-glub sound when the sink is draining
into an open 4-inch cast iron toilet stack?
P.S. I have the ceiling completely open below the bathroom sink and
tub, so I have an easy view and easy access to all of the drain line
systems that are there. And, my plan is to re-do those drain lines
in a better way that I know will completely resolve the problem.
But, I am still curious why I am getting the glub-glub sound now when
the sink drains into this open vessel (cast iron stack) with an open
air inlet at the top (meaning the sink drain itself).

BTW, there was no need to modify the P-trap for your snake. It is
easy to just take off the P-trap by unscrewing the two nuts that hold
it to the drain and pipe into the wall.

I agree, but I wanted to have a straight shot into the drain line toward the
wall and not have to deal with one more turn at the beginning for the
remaining piece of the P-trap. That way, I knew that the only two turns
that I needed to deal with were the 90 in the wall and the 90 at the bottom
making the turn to the horizontal piece.

In ,
TomR typed:
In ,
dadiOH typed:
TomR wrote:

Meanwhile, here is my question:

Even though I did this, when the sink drains, I still hear a
glub-glub sound.

BTW, there was no need to modify the P-trap for your snake. It is
easy to just take off the P-trap by unscrewing the two nuts that hold
it to the drain and pipe into the wall.

I agree, but I wanted to have a straight shot into the drain line
toward the wall and not have to deal with one more turn at the
beginning for the remaining piece of the P-trap. That way, I knew
that the only two turns that I needed to deal with were the 90 in the
wall and the 90 at the bottom making the turn to the horizontal piece.

P.S. This worked out great and I was glad that I put the coupling in so I
could do that. It made the whole snaking process a breeze.

On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 9:28:24 AM UTC-5, TomR wrote:
I have often thought about this question, and I may have even participated
in discussions about it before. It is about something that I just can't get
myself to fully understand, even though I try to think of what is going on
and how I think it "should" be working. So, I am looking for people who ca
"splain-it" to me in a way that I can understand.

Here's the scenario:

I have a 2nd floor bathroom sink drain. The sink has a typical 1 11/4 inch
drain in it and has an overflow preventer port near the top of the sink.
The drain line under the sink is a 1 - 1/4 inch chrome drain line P-trap
that goes back into the wall. From there it makes a 90 degree turn down and
goes down about 18-inches to just below the floor line. Then it makes
another 90 degree turn to be virtually horizontal along the underside of the
bathroom floor and goes about 8 feet and ties into the side of the 4-inch
cast iron toilet drain under the toilet. Everything from the point inside
the wall behind the sink and down and across under the floor to the toilet
drain is approx 1 - 1/4 inch lead pipe with a horizontal curve in it to make
the trip to the 4-inch cast iron toilet drain.

The sink is often very slow to drain. I have used a 50 foot 1/4-in snake to
clean it out, which always helps -- at least for a while, But doing so is
not easy due to all of the turns it has to make to get through the P-trap,
down into the wall, and across to the toilet 4-inch cast iron drain. To
make things easier, a few days ago, I cut into the horizontal piece of the
P-trap and installed a coupling that I can easily disconnect. When I
disconnect that coupling, the 15 fool 1/4-snake goes in easily, makes the 90
degree turn down easily, and makes the final 90-degree to horizontal and
easily goes across to the end of the line where it drains into the 4-inch
cast iron toilet drain line.

So, I was able to easily clean that line out that way. And, with the snake
all the way in, I even slide the coupling and P-trap parts over the
beginning (back) end of the snake and run the snake up through the sink
drain. Then, I reconnected everything, ran hot water in the sink, and
continued cleaning the drain out by pulling the 15-foot snake out and up
through the drain with the hot water flowing to clean out the crud.

That worked (again), and the drain now drains quickly.

Meanwhile, here is my question:

Even though I did this, when the sink drains, I still hear a glub-glub
sound. It's the same type of sound that one hears when pouring gas out of a
gas can that does not have an open air vent in the back of the can. When
pouring gas out of the gas can with the air vent open, there is no glub-glub
sound -- meaning the gas goes out and air goes in behind it; therefore no
glub-glub.

But, why wouldn't my sink draining operate the same as pouring gas out of a
gas can with the air vent open -- with no glub-glub sound? When the sink is
draining, the drain is open at the top and air can get in (just like having
the gas can air vent open). So, why doesn't; that eliminate the glub-glub
sound when the sink is draining into an open 4-inch cast iron toilet stack?

P.S. I have the ceiling completely open below the bathroom sink and tub, so
I have an easy view and easy access to all of the drain line systems that
are there. And, my plan is to re-do those drain lines in a better way that
I know will completely resolve the problem. But, I am still curious why I
am getting the glub-glub sound now when the sink drains into this open
vessel (cast iron stack) with an open air inlet at the top (meaning the sink
drain itself).

I think your sink drain pipe is going too far without a vent near it. Add a studor vent under the sink after the trap and see if that helps.

There are a bunch of rules about pipe sizes and distance without a vent but I just generally assume if I'm going more than a few feet I need a direct vent connection or a studor vent.

If you get it draining better it's also unlikely to accumulate crud and you won't need to snake it so much.

In ,
typed:
On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 9:28:24 AM UTC-5, TomR wrote:
I have often thought about this question, and I may have even
participated in discussions about it before. It is about something
that I just can't get myself to fully understand, even though I try
to think of what is going on and how I think it "should" be working.
So, I am looking for people who ca "splain-it" to me in a way that I
can understand.
. . . . ,
Meanwhile, here is my question:

Even though I did this, when the sink drains, I still hear a
glub-glub sound. It's the same type of sound that one hears when
pouring gas out of a gas can that does not have an open air vent in
the back of the can. When pouring gas out of the gas can with the
air vent open, there is no glub-glub sound -- meaning the gas goes
out and air goes in behind it; therefore no glub-glub.

But, why wouldn't my sink draining operate the same as pouring gas
out of a gas can with the air vent open -- with no glub-glub sound?
When the sink is draining, the drain is open at the top and air can
get in (just like having the gas can air vent open). So, why
doesn't; that eliminate the glub-glub sound when the sink is
draining into an open 4-inch cast iron toilet stack?

I think your sink drain pipe is going too far without a vent near it.
Add a studor vent under the sink after the trap and see if that
helps.

That is sort of what I always assumed would be the problem. But, here's the
part that I don't understand:

What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to a 15
foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose into a 4-inch
cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the substitute sink), I
assume that the water will just flow into the funnel, through the hose, and
into the 4-inch cast iron pipe. I would not assume that the water going
down would go "glub-glub" since the top of the funnel is open. I would
assume tha the water just goes down on its own and there would be nothing
holding it back because the funnel is open.

If I did a similar experiment, but with a closed gasoline can attached to
the hose instead of the open funnel, I would assume that the water leaving
the closed gasoline can would go "glub-glub" because air needs to get into
the gasoline can to replace the volume of water that flows out of it.

I may not be describing this well, but that's the part of the whole scenario
that I don't understand. The water is flowing out of an open sink and into
an open container -- so why the need for a vent and why the glub-glub?

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 17:12:31 -0500, "TomR" wrote:



What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to a 15
foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose into a 4-inch
cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the substitute sink), I
assume that the water will just flow into the funnel, through the hose, and
into the 4-inch cast iron pipe. I would not assume that the water going
down would go "glub-glub" since the top of the funnel is open. I would
assume tha the water just goes down on its own and there would be nothing
holding it back because the funnel is open.

If I did a similar experiment, but with a closed gasoline can attached to
the hose instead of the open funnel, I would assume that the water leaving
the closed gasoline can would go "glub-glub" because air needs to get into
the gasoline can to replace the volume of water that flows out of it.

I may not be describing this well, but that's the part of the whole scenario
that I don't understand. The water is flowing out of an open sink and into
an open container -- so why the need for a vent and why the glub-glub?


You're not considering the trap. With poor or no venting the down
flowing water creates a siphon effect on the trap.
That's what causes the gurgling.

"TomR" wrote in :

What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to a 15
foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose into a 4-inch
cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the substitute sink), I
assume that the water will just flow into the funnel, through the hose, and
into the 4-inch cast iron pipe.

You assume incorrectly, as explained below. If you don't believe me, try it and see.

I would not assume that the water going
down would go "glub-glub" since the top of the funnel is open.

The "glub-glub" isn't water going down. It's air coming up.

I would
assume tha the water just goes down on its own and there would be nothing
holding it back because the funnel is open.

The issue is not whether air can get *in* to your garden hose through the open funnel, but
whether air can get *out* of it. Before you start pouring water into the hose, the hose isn't
empty, it's full of air. Then you pour water into the hose, on top of the air. The air, being far
less dense than the water, will tend to rise. If there isn't a vent somewhere for it to escape
through, it has to come back up through the hose and glub-glub-glub into the funnel.

If I did a similar experiment, but with a closed gasoline can attached to
the hose instead of the open funnel, I would assume that the water leaving
the closed gasoline can would go "glub-glub" because air needs to get into
the gasoline can to replace the volume of water that flows out of it.

Again, it's not the liquid that makes that sound, it's the air. And if you try that experiment,
you'll have two separate sets of "glub-glub": air entering the can, and air leaving the hose.

I may not be describing this well, but that's the part of the whole scenario
that I don't understand. The water is flowing out of an open sink and into
an open container -- so why the need for a vent and why the glub-glub?

So the air that's already in the pipe, below the water, can get out.

What do you put down the sink drain that can cause clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog. In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.

Hair.

--
Maggie

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.

Hair.

+1

It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

--
Maggie

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

I have seen them on TV. I just use a piece of brazing rod with a hook
on the end.

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

Since the OP has clogs farther down the line I am wondering if there
is an obstruction in the pipe that things hang up on.
I had a Q tip that drove me crazy here until I managed to grab it with
a spiral on my snake (I actually just unwrapped the cable a bit) and
pull it back up. I could snake the drain and it was fine until enough
piled up on it to plug things up.
It took a couple of tries before I finally grabbed it.
These days I have a tiny lighted camera on a 10 meter cable that plugs
into the USB port of my laptop. Pretty cool thing for stuff like this.

TomR wrote:

What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to a
15 foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose
into a 4-inch cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the
substitute sink), I assume that the water will just flow into the
funnel, through the hose, and into the 4-inch cast iron pipe. I
would not assume that the water going down would go "glub-glub" since
the top of the funnel is open. I would assume tha the water just
goes down on its own and there would be nothing holding it back
because the funnel is open.

There is also no air in the hose to be displaced.

In ,
Vic Smith typed:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 17:12:31 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to
a 15 foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose
into a 4-inch cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the
substitute sink), I assume that the water will just flow into the
funnel, through the hose, and into the 4-inch cast iron pipe. I
would not assume that the water going down would go "glub-glub"
since the top of the funnel is open. I would assume that the water
just goes down on its own and there would be nothing holding it back
because the funnel is open.

If I did a similar experiment, but with a closed gasoline can
attached to the hose instead of the open funnel, I would assume that
the water leaving the closed gasoline can would go "glub-glub"
because air needs to get into the gasoline can to replace the volume
of water that flows out of it.

I may not be describing this well, but that's the part of the whole
scenario that I don't understand. The water is flowing out of an
open sink and into an open container -- so why the need for a vent
and why the glub-glub?

You're not considering the trap. With poor or no venting the down
flowing water creates a siphon effect on the trap.
That's what causes the gurgling.

Ahah! I think that may be the answer! At least, it is an explanation that
I can picture and I can understand why it makes sense. I didn't think about
the effect of the trap as opposed to just a straight hose running down into
a sewer line. Thanks.

I guess that one easy way for me to test this theory would be to run a piece
of flexible small diameter tubing down through and past the trap, leaving
one end out above the water line in the sink, and try draining the sink. My
guess is that the tubing will work as a temporary air vent and the glub-glub
sound. won't happen. If I can find a piece of tubing laying around, I'll
try it and post the results back here.

I also just did a Google search for "under sink air vent" (a.k.a. air
admittance valve) and then I clicked on Google Images. That showed a lot of
under sink AAV's. Since I already put a coupling in the horizontal part of
the P-trap, I could probably change that to a Tee and install an air
admittance valve there. I am not sure if they make 1 1/4 inch air
admittance valves (since the P-trap pipes are 1 1/4 inch chrome), but I'll
check.

"TomR" writes:


What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to a 15
foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose into a 4-inch
cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the substitute sink), I
assume that the water will just flow into the funnel, through the hose, and
into the 4-inch cast iron pipe.

The p-trap on the sink is quite different from the funnel. The p-trap
doesn't allow air through.

In ,
typed:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause clogs? Soap and
water normally don't cause a clog. In 50+ years of home ownership,
I've never heard of a bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.

Just soap, water, shaving cream, whiskers from shaving, mouthwash, etc.
They are old, narrow, lead pipes with virtually no horizontal slope, so I
guess the crud does build up. The "clogs" are usually just slow-drain
problems, not complete clogs.

Once I do the new re-routed drain lines from underneath (where the ceiling
is already removed), all of this will be moot because I will have larger
drain lines with a much better slope, etc.

On 2/19/2016 1:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

I have seen them on TV. I just use a piece of brazing rod with a hook
on the end.


I had to look up what a brazing rod is, and I don't have any of those. lol

--
Maggie

On 2/19/2016 1:11 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.


Since the OP has clogs farther down the line I am wondering if there
is an obstruction in the pipe that things hang up on.
I had a Q tip that drove me crazy here until I managed to grab it with
a spiral on my snake (I actually just unwrapped the cable a bit) and
pull it back up. I could snake the drain and it was fine until enough
piled up on it to plug things up.
It took a couple of tries before I finally grabbed it.
These days I have a tiny lighted camera on a 10 meter cable that plugs
into the USB port of my laptop. Pretty cool thing for stuff like this.


I'm not so technical. I just use drain strainers like this,
http://tinyurl.com/gv94cnm, for my bathroom sink drains. It catches
everything and I just empty it when I see stuff in it. I haven't had my
sink drain clog up since I've been using one of those.
--
Maggie

On 2/19/2016 8:59 AM, TomR wrote:
In ,
typed:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause clogs? Soap and
water normally don't cause a clog. In 50+ years of home ownership,
I've never heard of a bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Just soap, water, shaving cream, whiskers from shaving, mouthwash, etc.
They are old, narrow, lead pipes with virtually no horizontal slope, so I
guess the crud does build up. The "clogs" are usually just slow-drain
problems, not complete clogs.

Once I do the new re-routed drain lines from underneath (where the ceiling
is already removed), all of this will be moot because I will have larger
drain lines with a much better slope, etc.



When you brush your hair, if you have hair to brush, that hair also goes
down the drain along with the whiskers and the gunk left over from
shaving, brushing your teeth, and mouthwash. The gunk can stick to any
hairs that get stuck going down the drain, is what I've been told, anyway.

--
Maggie

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 10:34:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 2/19/2016 1:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

I have seen them on TV. I just use a piece of brazing rod with a hook
on the end.


I had to look up what a brazing rod is, and I don't have any of those. lol

It is really a handy material and pretty cheap at a welding store. Of
course you can also braze with it if you have a torch.

TomR wrote:

You're not considering the trap. With poor or no venting the down
flowing water creates a siphon effect on the trap.
That's what causes the gurgling.

Ahah! I think that may be the answer! At least, it is an
explanation that I can picture and I can understand why it makes
sense. I didn't think about the effect of the trap as opposed to
just a straight hose running down into a sewer line. Thanks.

I guess that one easy way for me to test this theory would be to run
a piece of flexible small diameter tubing down through and past the
trap, leaving one end out above the water line in the sink, and try
draining the sink. My guess is that the tubing will work as a
temporary air vent and the glub-glub sound. won't happen. If I can
find a piece of tubing laying around, I'll try it and post the
results back here.

You'll need to either...

A. Pinch off the end you are not inserting until the other end is past the
trap

B. Blow out the water from the tubing after it is past the trap

Otherwise, the portion within the trap will be filled with water as it
passes through the trap.

Muggles posted for all of us...



On 2/19/2016 1:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

I have seen them on TV. I just use a piece of brazing rod with a hook
on the end.


I had to look up what a brazing rod is, and I don't have any of those. lol

Well Muggs, you just did about 1000 times the work the PaintedBovine does.
Maybe you could coach him on how to do it. Off line of course.

--
Tekkie

TomR posted for all of us...



In ,
Vic Smith typed:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 17:12:31 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

What if, instead of a sink, I had a big funnel that was attached to
a 15 foot garden hose. And, I put the other end of the garden hose
into a 4-inch cast iron pipe. If I pour water into the funnel (the
substitute sink), I assume that the water will just flow into the
funnel, through the hose, and into the 4-inch cast iron pipe. I
would not assume that the water going down would go "glub-glub"
since the top of the funnel is open. I would assume that the water
just goes down on its own and there would be nothing holding it back
because the funnel is open.

If I did a similar experiment, but with a closed gasoline can
attached to the hose instead of the open funnel, I would assume that
the water leaving the closed gasoline can would go "glub-glub"
because air needs to get into the gasoline can to replace the volume
of water that flows out of it.

I may not be describing this well, but that's the part of the whole
scenario that I don't understand. The water is flowing out of an
open sink and into an open container -- so why the need for a vent
and why the glub-glub?

You're not considering the trap. With poor or no venting the down
flowing water creates a siphon effect on the trap.
That's what causes the gurgling.

Ahah! I think that may be the answer! At least, it is an explanation that
I can picture and I can understand why it makes sense. I didn't think about
the effect of the trap as opposed to just a straight hose running down into
a sewer line. Thanks.

I guess that one easy way for me to test this theory would be to run a piece
of flexible small diameter tubing down through and past the trap, leaving
one end out above the water line in the sink, and try draining the sink. My
guess is that the tubing will work as a temporary air vent and the glub-glub
sound. won't happen. If I can find a piece of tubing laying around, I'll
try it and post the results back here.

I also just did a Google search for "under sink air vent" (a.k.a. air
admittance valve) and then I clicked on Google Images. That showed a lot of
under sink AAV's. Since I already put a coupling in the horizontal part of
the P-trap, I could probably change that to a Tee and install an air
admittance valve there. I am not sure if they make 1 1/4 inch air
admittance valves (since the P-trap pipes are 1 1/4 inch chrome), but I'll
check.

Just keep sucking on it until the taste changes... 8-)

--
Tekkie

In ,
Muggles typed:
On 2/19/2016 8:59 AM, TomR wrote:
In ,
typed:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause clogs? Soap and
water normally don't cause a clog. In 50+ years of home ownership,
I've never heard of a bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.

Just soap, water, shaving cream, whiskers from shaving, mouthwash,
etc. They are old, narrow, lead pipes with virtually no horizontal
slope, so I guess the crud does build up. The "clogs" are usually
just slow-drain problems, not complete clogs.

Once I do the new re-routed drain lines from underneath (where the
ceiling is already removed), all of this will be moot because I will
have larger drain lines with a much better slope, etc.

When you brush your hair, if you have hair to brush, that hair also
goes down the drain along with the whiskers and the gunk left over
from shaving, brushing your teeth, and mouthwash. The gunk can stick
to any hairs that get stuck going down the drain, is what I've been
told, anyway.

Yes, I'm sure some hair does end up in the drain. But, I don't have long
hair and I have never had or found a hair clog in the bathroom sink --
mostly just gunk of some kind that builds up and slows the drain process.

On 2/19/2016 3:16 PM, TomR wrote:
In ,
Muggles typed:
On 2/19/2016 8:59 AM, TomR wrote:
In ,
typed:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause clogs? Soap and
water normally don't cause a clog. In 50+ years of home ownership,
I've never heard of a bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.

Just soap, water, shaving cream, whiskers from shaving, mouthwash,
etc. They are old, narrow, lead pipes with virtually no horizontal
slope, so I guess the crud does build up. The "clogs" are usually
just slow-drain problems, not complete clogs.

Once I do the new re-routed drain lines from underneath (where the
ceiling is already removed), all of this will be moot because I will
have larger drain lines with a much better slope, etc.

When you brush your hair, if you have hair to brush, that hair also
goes down the drain along with the whiskers and the gunk left over
from shaving, brushing your teeth, and mouthwash. The gunk can stick
to any hairs that get stuck going down the drain, is what I've been
told, anyway.


Yes, I'm sure some hair does end up in the drain. But, I don't have long
hair and I have never had or found a hair clog in the bathroom sink --
mostly just gunk of some kind that builds up and slows the drain process.



Well, not sure what else it could be clogging a bathroom sink.

--
Maggie

On 2/19/2016 3:05 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Muggles posted for all of us...



On 2/19/2016 1:04 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:54:59 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:39:14 -0500, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:24:25 -0600, Muggles

wrote:


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:00:26 -0800 (PST), wrote:
What do you put down the sink drain that can cause
clogs? Soap and water normally don't cause a clog.
In 50+ years of home ownership, I've never heard of a
bathroom sink clog. Grease in a kitchen sink
perhaps, but not a bathroom sink.


Hair.


+1
It usually ends up in the trap at my house.
I think it is the combination of hair, toothpaste and the various
creams you ladies run down the sink that does it.

I keep a drain strainer in all my sinks to catch the hair. I've also
got one of those long thin plastic things that has like serrated
edges up both sides... if a clog happens, put that thing down the
sink and pull. It catches the hair clog and you can often just pull
the hair clog out.

I can't remember what the plastic tool is called, though.

I have seen them on TV. I just use a piece of brazing rod with a hook
on the end.


I had to look up what a brazing rod is, and I don't have any of those. lol

Well Muggs, you just did about 1000 times the work the PaintedBovine does.
Maybe you could coach him on how to do it. Off line of course.


Thanks? :-)

--
Maggie