DerbyDad03 wrote on 12/30/2015 :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 formulated the question :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 11:00:30 AM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth pretended :
On 2015-12-29 6:48 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren wrote on 12/29/2015 :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:59:28 -0800, "Eagle"
wrote:

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years as a
plasterer, I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and exterior.
A bit of work and you avoid old paint lifting after priming.

Good for you. Primers do help and paint adheres and looked just
wonderful. I'd even prime a 90 year old pastier wall.
Would you save the plaster?

If it were savable, yes. You don't see original redwood lath and plaster
very often. If it's crumbly and falling off, no.
There are other types of plaster and I'm assuming it's hardwall plaster,
not thinwall plaster.

Try the crap in my house, renovations are a pain in the ass, it is a wire
mesh lath with the plaster over the top of that. Gloves and the right
tools are a key for the parts of it I have redone, otherwise expect
blood.

I worked in California, so there are no basements to speak of, and most
of the interior plaster walls are 2'X4' 1/2" wall board with metal mesh
used in inside corners and fiberglass tape on joints. Gypsum plaster is
spread over that lath and when cured and dry, "puttycoat" is spread
over the gypsum resulting in a very hard wall.

I have very similar walls in my 1956-era house in the northeast US. The
"2'X4' 1/2" wall board" that you mention is gypsum board, laid
perpendicular to the studs (i.e. horizontal).

The insides of the walls look similar to this, although my gypsum boards
are 6" (8"?) wide, not 2'. I'm not sure about the length. It's been a while
since I tore any walls down, so the exact width and length of the gypsum
board has been forgotten, but I'm confident that it is not 2', not even
1' wide.

http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/P...Board31DFs.jpg

My walls measure about 3/4" thick. The metal mesh in the corners and
at the ceiling junctions make certain types of repairs and/or renovations
a real PITA. Patches in the open field need to be shimmed out to become
flush with the rest of the wall/ceiling.

The pic shows the gypsum board lath with gypsum 'hardwall' squeezing
between the joints. That's normal. Did you tape measure the width and
length of the gyp board lath? The normal size is 2'X4'X 1/2" thick for
walls, and 3/4" thick for partition firewalls between the house and
garage, or in other areas where fire is a hazard.

I never put a tape to the gypsum board lath, but I have torn out a few walls.

I'm trying to think of a place where I can see the back of a wall, perhaps
in the plumbing access area for the shower. The wall that I might be able
to see will be the back of a bedroom wall, extending into the closet. I'll
take a look when I get home. I'm just about 100% sure that the lath is not
2' wide, but we'll see.

As far as I recall, all original walls, internal and ex, are 3/4" thick.


The building codes in
your area may vary. The other interior plastering method is called
'THINWALL' and is mixed wet and spread on 4'X8'X1/2" GREENBOARD lath.
It looks very much like regular driwall board, but the paper is green
instead of grey.

The paper on my lath board is more brown than grey, leaning towards the
brown color of paper grocery bags.

Fiberglass mesh 2" wide tape is either stapled to the
joints, or has a impregnated glue so there is no need for staples.
Some of the gyp board may be cut to size and that is why you see
smaller gyp board?

I don't think so, but I'll check tonight, if I can.

There is a driwall product that comes in a sac dry and you mix it with
water and hawk and trowel the material over the repair areas. You can
go up to 1" thick with this material, but you may get cracks after
drying and have to use topping compound to fill in the cracks. Yes, the
material mentioned has a 'set' time, so mix it and get it on the wall
before it sets up.
HTH

I may have a scrap of wall that I cut out and saved as a reminder. If I
can find it, I'll take a picture.

Great! I await your return!

dpb was thinking very hard :
On 12/30/2015 10:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 11:00:30 AM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth pretended :
...

I worked in California, so there are no basements to speak of, and most
of the interior plaster walls are 2'X4' 1/2" wall board with metal mesh
used in inside corners and fiberglass tape on joints. Gypsum plaster is
spread over that lath and when cured and dry, "puttycoat" is spread
over the gypsum resulting in a very hard wall.

I have very similar walls in my 1956-era house in the northeast US. The
"2'X4' 1/2" wall board" that you mention is gypsum board, laid
perpendicular to the studs (i.e. horizontal).

The insides of the walls look similar to this, although my gypsum boards
are 6" (8"?) wide, not 2'. I'm not sure about the length. It's been a while
since I tore any walls down, so the exact width and length of the gypsum
board has been forgotten, but I'm confident that it is not 2', not even
1' wide.

http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/P...Board31DFs.jpg

My walls measure about 3/4" thick. The metal mesh in the corners and
at the ceiling junctions make certain types of repairs and/or renovations
a real PITA. Patches in the open field need to be shimmed out to become
flush with the rest of the wall/ceiling.

"Plaster lath" system...

www.tsib.org/pdf/technical/70-101-Gypsum-Lath-Behind-Gypsum-Plaster.pdf

We used it quite a lot doing reno's of the old Federal-era mansions in
Lynchburg, VA, back when a young pup and were refurb'ing many of these with
friends moving in just out of school. They had been converted to rooms and
terribly cut up an all, but one could get a whole lot of house for almost
nothing as compared to new construction if one was willing to do the
necessary refurbishing. We as a group of new hires (roughly 1000 over about
three years) basically did a major revitalization of a significant area in
older part of Lynchburg.

There were about a half-dozen of us who made the renovation business a
sideline occupation serving the purpose. I mostly concentrated on the
interior architectural woodwork but these systems were used extensively as
opposed to original lath and plaster as faster and cheaper but still able to
match surface thicknesses and such that were extremely variable in those old
houses.

They were 16" systems then as the above mentions; I never ran into anything
narrower than that; I suppose there were likely local manufacturers as well
with other products.

I bet that was very interesting doing the renos on those old buildings.
I worked on the old court building in Downtown San Diego making it
earthquake proof and rebuilding the old plaster cieling mouldings. Only
a small handful of old plasterers had the knowlege and skill needed to
referb the court cielings. We did "bench moulds" of the original
architecture and attached them to the cielings using gypsum putty.
We worked on our backs some 50 feet up!

On 2015-12-30 1:31 PM, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth brought next idea :
On 2015-12-30 1:02 PM, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth brought next idea :
On 2015-12-30 11:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 11:00:30 AM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth pretended :
On 2015-12-29 6:48 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren wrote on 12/29/2015 :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:59:28 -0800, "Eagle"

wrote:

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years
as a
plasterer, I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and
exterior.
A bit of work and you avoid old paint lifting after priming.

Good for you. Primers do help and paint adheres and looked just
wonderful. I'd even prime a 90 year old pastier wall.
Would you save the plaster?

If it were savable, yes. You don't see original redwood lath and
plaster
very often. If it's crumbly and falling off, no.
There are other types of plaster and I'm assuming it's hardwall
plaster,
not thinwall plaster.

Try the crap in my house, renovations are a pain in the ass, it is
a wire
mesh lath with the plaster over the top of that. Gloves and the
right tools
are a key for the parts of it I have redone, otherwise expect blood.

I worked in California, so there are no basements to speak of, and
most
of the interior plaster walls are 2'X4' 1/2" wall board with metal
mesh
used in inside corners and fiberglass tape on joints. Gypsum
plaster is
spread over that lath and when cured and dry, "puttycoat" is spread
over the gypsum resulting in a very hard wall.

I have very similar walls in my 1956-era house in the northeast US.
The
"2'X4' 1/2" wall board" that you mention is gypsum board, laid
perpendicular to the studs (i.e. horizontal).

The insides of the walls look similar to this, although my gypsum
boards
are 6" (8"?) wide, not 2'. I'm not sure about the length. It's been a
while
since I tore any walls down, so the exact width and length of the
gypsum
board has been forgotten, but I'm confident that it is not 2', not
even
1' wide.

http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/P...Board31DFs.jpg

My walls measure about 3/4" thick. The metal mesh in the corners and
at the ceiling junctions make certain types of repairs and/or
renovations
a real PITA. Patches in the open field need to be shimmed out to
become
flush with the rest of the wall/ceiling.

My house was built in 1952, the wire lathe is not just in the corners,
it extends floor to ceiling, wall to wall, the plaster is not in
sheets, it is all built up in several layers and hand applied. Any
reno, causes massive amounts of dust, and curse words.

Is this on exterior walls or interior? Can you post a shot of what you
are referring?

Interior, no shot, didn't take pictures when I was mid-destruction the
last time, and not planning to take a wall down to show you what is
behind it as then I would have to fix it, and deal with my wife.
"Well honey, some guy on the internet wanted me to destroy a wall so I
could take a picture for him." :-)

Aw why not... lol

I assume it was the next step up after the wood lathe of old, getting
the wire mesh lathe installed was probably less labour intensive than
all the wooden strips.

In your area, I don't know what the norm is for plastered interiors.
Using metal mesh lath is usually done on comercial projects and screwed
onto metal studs. here in Calif. Redwood lath is no longer used, only
gyp board and metal mesh sheets and screws.
There were a few tracts of homes built here in Temecula that use metal
stud framing. I saw this going on while driving up I-15 and had to stop
and check it out. After chatting with the Sup, I found out it was an
experiment to see what the cost would be between wood framing and beer
can stud framing. I never got a financial study, so I guess I should ask
the sub contractor and builder what the cost comparison was.

I have no idea how common it was here either, of course now it is all
drywall in new construction, any idiot can do that, even me. :-)

Other than this place any plaster walls I have torn into had wood behind
the plaster, the metal definitely surprised a few friends when they saw it.

--
Froz...

Quando omni flunkus, moritati

On 12/30/2015 12:41 PM, Eagle wrote:
dpb :
....

"Plaster lath" system...

www.tsib.org/pdf/technical/70-101-Gypsum-Lath-Behind-Gypsum-Plaster.pdf

We used it quite a lot doing reno's of the old Federal-era mansions in
Lynchburg, VA, back when a young pup and were refurb'ing many of these
with friends moving in just out of school. They had been converted to
rooms and terribly cut up an all, but one could get a whole lot of
house for almost nothing as compared to new construction if one was
willing to do the necessary refurbishing. We as a group of new hires
(roughly 1000 over about three years) basically did a major
revitalization of a significant area in older part of Lynchburg.

There were about a half-dozen of us who made the renovation business a
sideline occupation serving the purpose. I mostly concentrated on the
interior architectural woodwork but these systems were used
extensively as opposed to original lath and plaster as faster and
cheaper but still able to match surface thicknesses and such that were
extremely variable in those old houses.
....

I bet that was very interesting doing the renos on those old buildings.
I worked on the old court building in Downtown San Diego making it
earthquake proof and rebuilding the old plaster cieling mouldings. Only
a small handful of old plasterers had the knowlege and skill needed to
referb the court cielings. We did "bench moulds" of the original
architecture and attached them to the cielings using gypsum putty.
We worked on our backs some 50 feet up!

That'd be kewl, too! There was some fine work of that type in some of
these but I didn't work on any of 'em. Being a wood kinda' guy (having
grown up in far SW KS where trees were unheard of, moving to VA and
having a ready supply of all that abundant hardwood was essentially
heaven! ) I concentrated on restoring old panel walls, fancy wide
staircases with hand-turned balusters, etc., etc., ... My all time
favorite was one with hand-raised panel wainscot where the panels were
native pine single-plank 19" to 24" wide. Hard to imagine such a tree
as what those came from these days.

I was only in Lynchburg 10 years, we started the process but it was
others who remained (many good friends stayed and are retired there) got
acceptance into the Historical Register in 1980, a couple years after we
had made the trek to TN...

www.dhr.virginia.gov/registers/Cities/Lynchburg/118-0056_Federal_Hill_HD_1980_Final_Nomination.pdf

--

On 12/30/2015 11:19 AM, Eagle wrote:
Don Y formulated the question :
On 12/29/2015 3:59 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren was thinking very hard :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:40:30 -0800, "Eagle"
wrote:

Question: is there a preferrable primer to use? Or ones to avoid?
Thanks

Try scraping off the paint and use a stone or metal wall scraper to get the
old paint off, then use driwall topping compound and a trowel to smooth the
wall.

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years as a
plasterer,

Frenchman?

Lakota.

Ah! Most of the plasterers I've known over the years were French.

I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and exterior. A bit of
work and you avoid old paint lifting after priming.

I'd like to learn how to do "smooth" -- folks here won't touch it;
always opting for aggressive textures (to hide their sins!). Any
pointers besides "practice, practice, practice" (joint taping)?

I like smoooth as well!

Here, I don't think I have yet to encounter a home with smooth
walls -- inside *or* out! (stucco) Typically a knockdown texture
over drywall, then paint.

Back east, everything was smooth. I recall a friend in beantown
using a VERY aggressive (knockdown) texture -- the plaster being
almost an inch thick in some places (you could put "spare change"
in the nooks and crannies in the wall surface!) No idea how
that fared in the long run (I imagine it would be impossible
to keep clean!). And, probably something you'd tire of seeing...

Start with a fairly smooth wall and use a hawk and Trowel to spread the driwall
topping compound on the work area. Smooth the area with the trowel, and if
needed, wet the trowel face and keep smoothing the work area till you are a
happy camper.

So, just time and patience? : Presumably, a larger trowel makes
the going quicker and results better?

We're also debating ceiling treatment. Popcorn had to go -- nasty
and dirt magnet. Not particularly fond of the various "knockdown"
textures as they are common on most walls, here. Grew up with
brush swirl but I'm not sure even that would fare well, here.

Might opt for something like a slapbrush as it would be a bit more
forgiving without being as "noisey" as the knockdowns.

Scrape off the popcorn, it will be messy so cover everything with thin sheet
plastic first so you can fold the mess into the sheet plastic and dump it. Use
driwall topping to 'fix' any divits and holes. Use Kilz to seal the lid and
spread topping smooth, or do a 'skip trowel' method of texuring. There are
several types of texturing walls and lids, so consult a driwall pro, or better
yet, a journeyman plasterer in your area. [What state are you in?]

Already removed the popcorn. Relatively easy on stilts. (quickly learned
that goggles are helpful at keeping all that crud from getting into your
eyes on its way down to the floor! : )

Hardest part with the texture decision is deciding what we want
to *see* as well as how well it hides the sins of an aging home
(frontier style roof so flat ceilings rarely STAY flat!). The popcorn
was really obnoxious (looking) and catches too much dirt and "dust".
When it's dry, here (most of the time), there's a lot of dirt in
the air that settles on all sorts of things. Smooth (or less
aggressive) surfaces can be wiped clean; popcorn is just too rough!

On 12/30/2015 1:12 PM, dpb wrote:
....

I was only in Lynchburg 10 years, we started the process but it was
others who remained (many good friends stayed and are retired there) got
acceptance into the Historical Register in 1980, a couple years after we
had made the trek to TN...

www.dhr.virginia.gov/registers/Cities/Lynchburg/118-0056_Federal_Hill_HD_1980_Final_Nomination.pdf

Man, this is a nostalgia trip!!! Been almost 40 yr since we left now
and I've not been back even to visit or just drive thru in over 20...but
found the following for a few photo's...

http://www.federalhilllynchburg.com/#!photographs/caq0

--

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:34:17 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote on 12/30/2015 :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 formulated the question :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 11:00:30 AM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth pretended :
On 2015-12-29 6:48 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren wrote on 12/29/2015 :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:59:28 -0800, "Eagle"
wrote:

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years as a
plasterer, I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and exterior.
A bit of work and you avoid old paint lifting after priming.

Good for you. Primers do help and paint adheres and looked just
wonderful. I'd even prime a 90 year old pastier wall.
Would you save the plaster?

If it were savable, yes. You don't see original redwood lath and plaster
very often. If it's crumbly and falling off, no.
There are other types of plaster and I'm assuming it's hardwall plaster,
not thinwall plaster.

Try the crap in my house, renovations are a pain in the ass, it is a wire
mesh lath with the plaster over the top of that. Gloves and the right
tools are a key for the parts of it I have redone, otherwise expect
blood.

I worked in California, so there are no basements to speak of, and most
of the interior plaster walls are 2'X4' 1/2" wall board with metal mesh
used in inside corners and fiberglass tape on joints. Gypsum plaster is
spread over that lath and when cured and dry, "puttycoat" is spread
over the gypsum resulting in a very hard wall.

I have very similar walls in my 1956-era house in the northeast US. The
"2'X4' 1/2" wall board" that you mention is gypsum board, laid
perpendicular to the studs (i.e. horizontal).

The insides of the walls look similar to this, although my gypsum boards
are 6" (8"?) wide, not 2'. I'm not sure about the length. It's been a while
since I tore any walls down, so the exact width and length of the gypsum
board has been forgotten, but I'm confident that it is not 2', not even
1' wide.

http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/P...Board31DFs.jpg

My walls measure about 3/4" thick. The metal mesh in the corners and
at the ceiling junctions make certain types of repairs and/or renovations
a real PITA. Patches in the open field need to be shimmed out to become
flush with the rest of the wall/ceiling.

The pic shows the gypsum board lath with gypsum 'hardwall' squeezing
between the joints. That's normal. Did you tape measure the width and
length of the gyp board lath? The normal size is 2'X4'X 1/2" thick for
walls, and 3/4" thick for partition firewalls between the house and
garage, or in other areas where fire is a hazard.

I never put a tape to the gypsum board lath, but I have torn out a few walls.

I'm trying to think of a place where I can see the back of a wall, perhaps
in the plumbing access area for the shower. The wall that I might be able
to see will be the back of a bedroom wall, extending into the closet. I'll
take a look when I get home. I'm just about 100% sure that the lath is not
2' wide, but we'll see.

As far as I recall, all original walls, internal and ex, are 3/4" thick.


The building codes in
your area may vary. The other interior plastering method is called
'THINWALL' and is mixed wet and spread on 4'X8'X1/2" GREENBOARD lath.
It looks very much like regular driwall board, but the paper is green
instead of grey.

The paper on my lath board is more brown than grey, leaning towards the
brown color of paper grocery bags.

Fiberglass mesh 2" wide tape is either stapled to the
joints, or has a impregnated glue so there is no need for staples.
Some of the gyp board may be cut to size and that is why you see
smaller gyp board?

I don't think so, but I'll check tonight, if I can.

There is a driwall product that comes in a sac dry and you mix it with
water and hawk and trowel the material over the repair areas. You can
go up to 1" thick with this material, but you may get cracks after
drying and have to use topping compound to fill in the cracks. Yes, the
material mentioned has a 'set' time, so mix it and get it on the wall
before it sets up.
HTH

I may have a scrap of wall that I cut out and saved as a reminder. If I
can find it, I'll take a picture.

Great! I await your return!

I was mistaken. The gypsum board is indeed 2' wide.

It's the subfloors and roof sheathing that are 1 x 6" T&G boards. (no plywood)

I can't put my hands on the wall cutout that I (thought I) saved.

DerbyDad03 has brought this to us :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:34:17 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote on 12/30/2015 :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 formulated the question :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 11:00:30 AM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth pretended :
On 2015-12-29 6:48 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren wrote on 12/29/2015 :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:59:28 -0800, "Eagle"
wrote:

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years as
a plasterer, I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and
exterior. A bit of work and you avoid old paint lifting after
priming.

Good for you. Primers do help and paint adheres and looked just
wonderful. I'd even prime a 90 year old pastier wall.
Would you save the plaster?

If it were savable, yes. You don't see original redwood lath and
plaster very often. If it's crumbly and falling off, no.
There are other types of plaster and I'm assuming it's hardwall
plaster, not thinwall plaster.

Try the crap in my house, renovations are a pain in the ass, it is a
wire mesh lath with the plaster over the top of that. Gloves and the
right tools are a key for the parts of it I have redone, otherwise
expect blood.

I worked in California, so there are no basements to speak of, and most
of the interior plaster walls are 2'X4' 1/2" wall board with metal mesh
used in inside corners and fiberglass tape on joints. Gypsum plaster is
spread over that lath and when cured and dry, "puttycoat" is spread
over the gypsum resulting in a very hard wall.

I have very similar walls in my 1956-era house in the northeast US. The
"2'X4' 1/2" wall board" that you mention is gypsum board, laid
perpendicular to the studs (i.e. horizontal).

The insides of the walls look similar to this, although my gypsum boards
are 6" (8"?) wide, not 2'. I'm not sure about the length. It's been a
while since I tore any walls down, so the exact width and length of the
gypsum board has been forgotten, but I'm confident that it is not 2', not
even 1' wide.

http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/P...Board31DFs.jpg

My walls measure about 3/4" thick. The metal mesh in the corners and
at the ceiling junctions make certain types of repairs and/or renovations
a real PITA. Patches in the open field need to be shimmed out to become
flush with the rest of the wall/ceiling.

The pic shows the gypsum board lath with gypsum 'hardwall' squeezing
between the joints. That's normal. Did you tape measure the width and
length of the gyp board lath? The normal size is 2'X4'X 1/2" thick for
walls, and 3/4" thick for partition firewalls between the house and
garage, or in other areas where fire is a hazard.

I never put a tape to the gypsum board lath, but I have torn out a few
walls.

I'm trying to think of a place where I can see the back of a wall, perhaps
in the plumbing access area for the shower. The wall that I might be able
to see will be the back of a bedroom wall, extending into the closet. I'll
take a look when I get home. I'm just about 100% sure that the lath is not
2' wide, but we'll see.

As far as I recall, all original walls, internal and ex, are 3/4" thick.


The building codes in
your area may vary. The other interior plastering method is called
'THINWALL' and is mixed wet and spread on 4'X8'X1/2" GREENBOARD lath.
It looks very much like regular driwall board, but the paper is green
instead of grey.

The paper on my lath board is more brown than grey, leaning towards the
brown color of paper grocery bags.

Fiberglass mesh 2" wide tape is either stapled to the
joints, or has a impregnated glue so there is no need for staples.
Some of the gyp board may be cut to size and that is why you see
smaller gyp board?

I don't think so, but I'll check tonight, if I can.

There is a driwall product that comes in a sac dry and you mix it with
water and hawk and trowel the material over the repair areas. You can
go up to 1" thick with this material, but you may get cracks after
drying and have to use topping compound to fill in the cracks. Yes, the
material mentioned has a 'set' time, so mix it and get it on the wall
before it sets up.
HTH

I may have a scrap of wall that I cut out and saved as a reminder. If I
can find it, I'll take a picture.

Great! I await your return!

I was mistaken. The gypsum board is indeed 2' wide.

It's the subfloors and roof sheathing that are 1 x 6" T&G boards. (no
plywood)

I can't put my hands on the wall cutout that I (thought I) saved.

OK, thanks for the effort!
Very few construction projects use traditional 'hardwall' construction
anymore. It's usually 4'X 8' or 12' driwall 1/2 or 5/8 thick sheets
installed with treated driwall nails or screws and all corners and
joints covered with 2" driwall paper tape imbedded with driwall JOINT
compound, and finished with driwall TOPPING compound over taped joints
and nail/screw dents. Finished walls are sanded and spray-tex coated,
or smooth finished with topping compound and sanded smooth for paint.
I haven't seen any popcorn lids other than 30+year old popcorn that
used asbestos in the mix.
Asbestos in the driwall is another thread all together.

Don Y was thinking very hard :
On 12/30/2015 11:19 AM, Eagle wrote:
Don Y formulated the question :
On 12/29/2015 3:59 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren was thinking very hard :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:40:30 -0800, "Eagle"
wrote:

Question: is there a preferrable primer to use? Or ones to avoid?
Thanks

Try scraping off the paint and use a stone or metal wall scraper to get
the
old paint off, then use driwall topping compound and a trowel to smooth
the
wall.

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years as a
plasterer,

Frenchman?

Lakota.

Ah! Most of the plasterers I've known over the years were French.

Really? What state?
Most plasterers here in So.Cal. are Mexican now. All the old times like
Me are retired, and the Unions are mostly gone now, so the only folks
who get into the trades are Latino and get half of what wages were in
1995, and the only health insurance available is with the employer.
This is a much better way to get health coverage than what the Unions
negotiated for by FAR.
Unions are another thread!

I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and exterior. A bit of
work and you avoid old paint lifting after priming.

I'd like to learn how to do "smooth" -- folks here won't touch it;
always opting for aggressive textures (to hide their sins!). Any
pointers besides "practice, practice, practice" (joint taping)?

I like smoooth as well!

Here, I don't think I have yet to encounter a home with smooth
walls -- inside *or* out! (stucco) Typically a knockdown texture
over drywall, then paint.

True. It's much faster doing texture finish inside and out, therefore
cheaper for the sub-contractor. Smooth finishes are special order and
the cost is tacked onto the final price of the home. Stucco material is
a special mix for smooth finish as the regular stucco mix will check as
it drys.

Back east, everything was smooth. I recall a friend in beantown
using a VERY aggressive (knockdown) texture -- the plaster being
almost an inch thick in some places (you could put "spare change"
in the nooks and crannies in the wall surface!) No idea how
that fared in the long run (I imagine it would be impossible
to keep clean!). And, probably something you'd tire of seeing...

We did a tract of homes in San Diego [Mira Mesa] with that super heavy
texture on the front of the house. The base coat was sand finish, then
a texture finish was applied. A second texture finish was applied over
the first, and the third texture layer was added using extra #16 grit
silica sand. The result was texture that stuck out like 4 inches over
the whole wall! It sold lots of homes, but after ten years or so, the
owners would have all that dirt attracting texture removed and sand
finish stucco replaced the nasty dirty texture, or brick or stone or
wood siding was done.

Start with a fairly smooth wall and use a hawk and Trowel to spread the
driwall
topping compound on the work area. Smooth the area with the trowel, and if
needed, wet the trowel face and keep smoothing the work area till you are a
happy camper.

So, just time and patience? : Presumably, a larger trowel makes
the going quicker and results better?

Exactly. I used a pool trowel to smooth driwall since that trowel has
round nose and ass so no trowel marks are left.

We're also debating ceiling treatment. Popcorn had to go -- nasty
and dirt magnet. Not particularly fond of the various "knockdown"
textures as they are common on most walls, here. Grew up with
brush swirl but I'm not sure even that would fare well, here.

Might opt for something like a slapbrush as it would be a bit more
forgiving without being as "noisey" as the knockdowns.

Scrape off the popcorn, it will be messy so cover everything with thin
sheet
plastic first so you can fold the mess into the sheet plastic and dump it.
Use
driwall topping to 'fix' any divits and holes. Use Kilz to seal the lid and
spread topping smooth, or do a 'skip trowel' method of texuring. There are
several types of texturing walls and lids, so consult a driwall pro, or
better
yet, a journeyman plasterer in your area. [What state are you in?]

Already removed the popcorn. Relatively easy on stilts. (quickly learned
that goggles are helpful at keeping all that crud from getting into your
eyes on its way down to the floor! : )

Did you use a hood and long sleve shirt to keep the dust off?

Hardest part with the texture decision is deciding what we want
to *see* as well as how well it hides the sins of an aging home
(frontier style roof so flat ceilings rarely STAY flat!). The popcorn
was really obnoxious (looking) and catches too much dirt and "dust".
When it's dry, here (most of the time), there's a lot of dirt in
the air that settles on all sorts of things. Smooth (or less
aggressive) surfaces can be wiped clean; popcorn is just too rough!

Sounds like you have it well in hand Don!

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 12:10:35 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 has brought this to us :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:34:17 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote on 12/30/2015 :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
DerbyDad03 formulated the question :
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 11:00:30 AM UTC-5, Eagle wrote:
FrozenNorth pretended :
On 2015-12-29 6:48 PM, Eagle wrote:
Oren wrote on 12/29/2015 :
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:59:28 -0800, "Eagle"
wrote:

The question is about paint primers. Don't let facts interfere.

I don't believe in painting over primed plaster. After 30+ years as
a plasterer, I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and
exterior. A bit of work and you avoid old paint lifting after
priming.

Good for you. Primers do help and paint adheres and looked just
wonderful. I'd even prime a 90 year old pastier wall.
Would you save the plaster?

If it were savable, yes. You don't see original redwood lath and
plaster very often. If it's crumbly and falling off, no.
There are other types of plaster and I'm assuming it's hardwall
plaster, not thinwall plaster.

Try the crap in my house, renovations are a pain in the ass, it is a
wire mesh lath with the plaster over the top of that. Gloves and the
right tools are a key for the parts of it I have redone, otherwise
expect blood.

I worked in California, so there are no basements to speak of, and most
of the interior plaster walls are 2'X4' 1/2" wall board with metal mesh
used in inside corners and fiberglass tape on joints. Gypsum plaster is
spread over that lath and when cured and dry, "puttycoat" is spread
over the gypsum resulting in a very hard wall.

I have very similar walls in my 1956-era house in the northeast US. The
"2'X4' 1/2" wall board" that you mention is gypsum board, laid
perpendicular to the studs (i.e. horizontal).

The insides of the walls look similar to this, although my gypsum boards
are 6" (8"?) wide, not 2'. I'm not sure about the length. It's been a
while since I tore any walls down, so the exact width and length of the
gypsum board has been forgotten, but I'm confident that it is not 2', not
even 1' wide.

http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/P...Board31DFs.jpg

My walls measure about 3/4" thick. The metal mesh in the corners and
at the ceiling junctions make certain types of repairs and/or renovations
a real PITA. Patches in the open field need to be shimmed out to become
flush with the rest of the wall/ceiling.

The pic shows the gypsum board lath with gypsum 'hardwall' squeezing
between the joints. That's normal. Did you tape measure the width and
length of the gyp board lath? The normal size is 2'X4'X 1/2" thick for
walls, and 3/4" thick for partition firewalls between the house and
garage, or in other areas where fire is a hazard.

I never put a tape to the gypsum board lath, but I have torn out a few
walls.

I'm trying to think of a place where I can see the back of a wall, perhaps
in the plumbing access area for the shower. The wall that I might be able
to see will be the back of a bedroom wall, extending into the closet. I'll
take a look when I get home. I'm just about 100% sure that the lath is not
2' wide, but we'll see.

As far as I recall, all original walls, internal and ex, are 3/4" thick.


The building codes in
your area may vary. The other interior plastering method is called
'THINWALL' and is mixed wet and spread on 4'X8'X1/2" GREENBOARD lath.
It looks very much like regular driwall board, but the paper is green
instead of grey.

The paper on my lath board is more brown than grey, leaning towards the
brown color of paper grocery bags.

Fiberglass mesh 2" wide tape is either stapled to the
joints, or has a impregnated glue so there is no need for staples.
Some of the gyp board may be cut to size and that is why you see
smaller gyp board?

I don't think so, but I'll check tonight, if I can.

There is a driwall product that comes in a sac dry and you mix it with
water and hawk and trowel the material over the repair areas. You can
go up to 1" thick with this material, but you may get cracks after
drying and have to use topping compound to fill in the cracks. Yes, the
material mentioned has a 'set' time, so mix it and get it on the wall
before it sets up.
HTH

I may have a scrap of wall that I cut out and saved as a reminder. If I
can find it, I'll take a picture.

Great! I await your return!

I was mistaken. The gypsum board is indeed 2' wide.

It's the subfloors and roof sheathing that are 1 x 6" T&G boards. (no
plywood)

I can't put my hands on the wall cutout that I (thought I) saved.

OK, thanks for the effort!
Very few construction projects use traditional 'hardwall' construction
anymore. It's usually 4'X 8' or 12' driwall 1/2 or 5/8 thick sheets
installed with treated driwall nails or screws and all corners and
joints covered with 2" driwall paper tape imbedded with driwall JOINT
compound, and finished with driwall TOPPING compound over taped joints
and nail/screw dents.

That, of course, is how the "replacement" walls that I put up were done.

I have never been able to master the taping process so it either takes
me forever + more time to get it done or I get someone else to do
it for me.

My first major drywall project was a basement bathroom with all sorts of
angles and joints and "shelves". Cinder block walls, wider at the
bottom than at the top with a sloped ledge about 5' from the floor.
Instead of building out the upper wall to be flush with the lower
section, I created a flat shelf with the drywall where the walls
narrowed, essentially flattening out the slope. This created
additional inside and outside corners that needed to be taped/finished.
There was also a box I built around a gas pipe, adding even more seams
that needed to be finished. Then there was the area above the shower
stall, the wall around the stall, etc. There was no way I was going
to be able to tape and mud all of those joints in any reasonable
amount of time, if ever.

At the time I was working for a company that had hired a contracting
firm to renovate some office areas. I found the foreman, told him that
I was looking for a decent drywall guy who was looking for a side job.
He introduced me to one of his guys and we struck a deal for him to
stop by after work for the next few days and tape/mud my bathroom.

By the time I needed some more finishing done, I had already taught my
son how to hang drywall while also telling him that I was no good at
the finishing. I knew *how* to do it, I just couldn't get it done in
an efficient manner. He did his own research on youtube, etc. practiced
on an apartment he was fixing up for a break on the rent and was more a
less a natural at it. The next few times I needed some taping done, he
came over and did it for me. I love it when a plan comes together. ;-)

On 12/31/2015 10:31 AM, Eagle wrote:

Ah! Most of the plasterers I've known over the years were French.

Really? What state?

That would have been back east (New England).

Most plasterers here in So.Cal. are Mexican now.

Yes, same here (S.AZ)

All the old times like Me are
retired, and the Unions are mostly gone now, so the only folks who get into the
trades are Latino and get half of what wages were in 1995, and the only health
insurance available is with the employer. This is a much better way to get
health coverage than what the Unions negotiated for by FAR.
Unions are another thread!

I avoid priming plaster walls, both interior and exterior. A bit of
work and you avoid old paint lifting after priming.

I'd like to learn how to do "smooth" -- folks here won't touch it;
always opting for aggressive textures (to hide their sins!). Any
pointers besides "practice, practice, practice" (joint taping)?

I like smoooth as well!

Here, I don't think I have yet to encounter a home with smooth
walls -- inside *or* out! (stucco) Typically a knockdown texture
over drywall, then paint.

True. It's much faster doing texture finish inside and out, therefore cheaper
for the sub-contractor. Smooth finishes are special order and the cost is
tacked onto the final price of the home. Stucco material is a special mix for
smooth finish as the regular stucco mix will check as it drys.

Yes. My stucco point was that its rare to see even a *brick* house,
here. They slather stucco (and texture) over EVERYTHING! Even
wood-framed homes.

Back east, everything was smooth. I recall a friend in beantown
using a VERY aggressive (knockdown) texture -- the plaster being
almost an inch thick in some places (you could put "spare change"
in the nooks and crannies in the wall surface!) No idea how
that fared in the long run (I imagine it would be impossible
to keep clean!). And, probably something you'd tire of seeing...

We did a tract of homes in San Diego [Mira Mesa] with that super heavy texture
on the front of the house. The base coat was sand finish, then a texture finish
was applied. A second texture finish was applied over the first, and the third
texture layer was added using extra #16 grit silica sand. The result was
texture that stuck out like 4 inches over the whole wall! It sold lots of
homes, but after ten years or so, the owners would have all that dirt
attracting texture removed and sand finish stucco replaced the nasty dirty
texture, or brick or stone or wood siding was done.

Exactly. That was the problem we encountered with the aggressive popcorn
texture on the ceilings: air blowing past it (ceiling height vents)
would result in dirt getting caught in the texture. You'd literally
see these brown steaks across the ceilings, originating from the nearby
ducts.

Of course, you can't just wipe it down with a wet cloth as the surface
is too rough. You could *spray* it with a fine mist and hope the dirt
DRIPS off... : Easier just to remove it.

Walls have a pretty bold knockdown texture in most places. Makes small
patches a bit of a chore as you now have to try to match a "random"
pattern (instead of just sanding it smooth) and repainting. But, at least
you can wipe it clean.

Start with a fairly smooth wall and use a hawk and Trowel to spread the driwall
topping compound on the work area. Smooth the area with the trowel, and if
needed, wet the trowel face and keep smoothing the work area till you are a
happy camper.

So, just time and patience? : Presumably, a larger trowel makes
the going quicker and results better?

Exactly. I used a pool trowel to smooth driwall since that trowel has round
nose and ass so no trowel marks are left.

Ah! I will have to look for that! Thanks!

Scrape off the popcorn, it will be messy so cover everything with thin sheet
plastic first so you can fold the mess into the sheet plastic and dump it. Use
driwall topping to 'fix' any divits and holes. Use Kilz to seal the lid and
spread topping smooth, or do a 'skip trowel' method of texuring. There are
several types of texturing walls and lids, so consult a driwall pro, or better
yet, a journeyman plasterer in your area. [What state are you in?]

Already removed the popcorn. Relatively easy on stilts. (quickly learned
that goggles are helpful at keeping all that crud from getting into your
eyes on its way down to the floor! : )

Did you use a hood and long sleve shirt to keep the dust off?

grin No. Just my typical short-sleeved T-shirt. No head covering.
So, a good long shower after each "shift" -- with a couple of shampoo
cycles (long hair).

I seem to have a conceptual problem matching shirts to the job at hand.
E.g., Short sleeve when I should have covered my arms to scrape the
popcorn. Short sleeve when I should be wearing something long and
THICK as I pick the citrus (large "thorns" scrape the hell out of my
exposed arms as I reach into the trees). White shirt when I work on
the cars (can you spell "grease and oil"?). Black shirt when baking
(can you spell "white flour"?).

shrug I always realize my mistake -- AFTER having made it. But,
never seem to learn/remember for the *next* time! :-/

Hardest part with the texture decision is deciding what we want
to *see* as well as how well it hides the sins of an aging home
(frontier style roof so flat ceilings rarely STAY flat!). The popcorn
was really obnoxious (looking) and catches too much dirt and "dust".
When it's dry, here (most of the time), there's a lot of dirt in
the air that settles on all sorts of things. Smooth (or less
aggressive) surfaces can be wiped clean; popcorn is just too rough!

Sounds like you have it well in hand Don!

(sigh) A shame there isn't some quicker way to get from "here" to "there"...

Thx!