My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.

--
Froz...

Quando omni flunkus, moritati

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.
The wouse was wired for just a light, with a "drop switch" setup..
Power and neutral go to the ceiling box - neutral fastened to the
light, power carried down to the switch and back up to the light.
When the fan was installed. the fan was wired in place of the light,
and the light was connected across the power and neutral in the box.
More common is to connect the light to the wall switch and the fan to
the live so the fan runs on the pullchain, switch off or on - and the
light is controlled by the wall switch. Just need to switch 2 wires at
the fan/light.

On 12/6/2015 3:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single toggle)
is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch is in the off
position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the chain, and
it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off position. Wall switch
up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch down, light turns on and off
with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it has just
now been brought to my attention.

The "fixture" looks like a fan and a light. So, two "supply" wires (line)
and one "return" (neutral) wire.

This allows you to install a speed control for the fan *and/or* a dimmer
for the light. Had the two "supply" wires been tied together *in* the
fixture (i.e., so the fixture just had one hot and one neutral), you
could use the switches (pull chain, etc.) to control the fan and/or
light, but couldn't use a dimmer or speed control (because you couldn't
"supply" just the fan or just the light from that REMOTELY located
control/switch).

How do you *want* the fan/light to behave? Within reason, you can change
this behavior (e.g., so both turn off with the switch; add a second
switch for REMOTE control of each function independantly, etc.)

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

How does your mother want it to work.

Bear in mind, when the fan runs and no one is in the room, it doesn't
make the room cooler. It makes it warmer. The fan gives off a
little heat and moving air is equivalent to heat, plus it blows the
warm air near the ceiling down to where the people are. Not that fans
are bad -- most people like them -- but they don't help when you're
not in the room and you might want to turn the fan and the light off
then.

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

You need to decide if you have a reason to leave the fan on when the
light is off.

It is nice that you have a choice of hot and also a switched conductor
in the box, but you could put both on the switched so nothing is on
when you turn off the switch.

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?
The only "hot" in the box is unswitched, bur it is then "dropped" to
the switch, which returns the power on the white wire, which is
supposed to be marked with black tape to indicate it is "live". You
will find one cable (romex) coming in that is live at all times, and
the black from it will be connected to the black of a second cable
that goes to the switch. The light is also connected to that black
wire, and the fan is connected to the white that returns frm the
switch (the switched "live". Both share the neutral of the "feed"
cable. Switch the wires for the line side of the fan and light, the
light will work on the switch, and the fan will work only with it's
pull-chain.

Another option is you MAY have a 3 wire coming through the switch box
(extremely unlikely) with the black switched and the red run straight
through. Possible, but EXTREMELY unlikely. Again, switching the feeds
on the light and fan(reversing them) will have the same effect.

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:03:06 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

How does your mother want it to work.

Bear in mind, when the fan runs and no one is in the room, it doesn't
make the room cooler. It makes it warmer. The fan gives off a
little heat and moving air is equivalent to heat, plus it blows the
warm air near the ceiling down to where the people are. Not that fans
are bad -- most people like them -- but they don't help when you're
not in the room and you might want to turn the fan and the light off
then.
The fan still moves the air and keeps the temperature more even from
floor to ceiling. The amount of "heat" added to the room by the fan is
a virtual non issue.

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:33:07 -0500, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

You need to decide if you have a reason to leave the fan on when the
light is off.

It is nice that you have a choice of hot and also a switched conductor
in the box, but you could put both on the switched so nothing is on
when you turn off the switch.
In our kitchen we often want the fan running in the daytime when we
most certainly do NOT need the lights on.

In a bedroom the same is true. You may very well want the fan running
all night, but certainly don't want the lights on.

Same in a living room.

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:53:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:33:07 -0500, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

You need to decide if you have a reason to leave the fan on when the
light is off.

It is nice that you have a choice of hot and also a switched conductor
in the box, but you could put both on the switched so nothing is on
when you turn off the switch.
In our kitchen we often want the fan running in the daytime when we
most certainly do NOT need the lights on.

In a bedroom the same is true. You may very well want the fan running
all night, but certainly don't want the lights on.

Same in a living room.

Since the controls for the fan and the light are on the fan itself,
you can also have the choice of leaving either one on without the
other.

On 12/6/2015 8:53 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:33:07 -0500, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

You need to decide if you have a reason to leave the fan on when the
light is off.

It is nice that you have a choice of hot and also a switched conductor
in the box, but you could put both on the switched so nothing is on
when you turn off the switch.
In our kitchen we often want the fan running in the daytime when we
most certainly do NOT need the lights on.

In a bedroom the same is true. You may very well want the fan running
all night, but certainly don't want the lights on.

Same in a living room.


Exactly. I live in Florida and the ceiling fans run almost all of the time.

I read your other posts. Thanks for the help. I'm visiting her right now
and I will take a look at it tomorrow.

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:02:11 -0500, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:53:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:33:07 -0500, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

You need to decide if you have a reason to leave the fan on when the
light is off.

It is nice that you have a choice of hot and also a switched conductor
in the box, but you could put both on the switched so nothing is on
when you turn off the switch.
In our kitchen we often want the fan running in the daytime when we
most certainly do NOT need the lights on.

In a bedroom the same is true. You may very well want the fan running
all night, but certainly don't want the lights on.

Same in a living room.

Since the controls for the fan and the light are on the fan itself,
you can also have the choice of leaving either one on without the
other.
Yes you can, but what are wall switches made for? Convenience. You
set it up to be the most convenient you can.

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:51:00 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:03:06 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

How does your mother want it to work.

Bear in mind, when the fan runs and no one is in the room, it doesn't
make the room cooler. It makes it warmer. The fan gives off a
little heat and moving air is equivalent to heat, plus it blows the
warm air near the ceiling down to where the people are. Not that fans
are bad -- most people like them -- but they don't help when you're
not in the room and you might want to turn the fan and the light off
then.
The fan still moves the air and keeps the temperature more even from
floor to ceiling.

Why does that matter if no one is in the room?

(I don't even know why it matters when people are in the room.)

The amount of "heat" added to the room by the fan is
a virtual non issue.

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 00:09:56 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:51:00 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:03:06 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

How does your mother want it to work.

Bear in mind, when the fan runs and no one is in the room, it doesn't
make the room cooler. It makes it warmer. The fan gives off a
little heat and moving air is equivalent to heat, plus it blows the
warm air near the ceiling down to where the people are. Not that fans
are bad -- most people like them -- but they don't help when you're
not in the room and you might want to turn the fan and the light off
then.
The fan still moves the air and keeps the temperature more even from
floor to ceiling.

Why does that matter if no one is in the room?

(I don't even know why it matters when people are in the room.)

The amount of "heat" added to the room by the fan is
a virtual non issue.

Did someone say something about a nitwit?

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 5:27:02 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

you can buy a emote control for that fan light combo, so you can do either whenever you want

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 7:36:30 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:
On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

One reason is so that the wall switch works the fan and the pull
chain works the light, just like you have.

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?
The only "hot" in the box is unswitched, bur it is then "dropped" to
the switch, which returns the power on the white wire, which is
supposed to be marked with black tape to indicate it is "live". You
will find one cable (romex) coming in that is live at all times, and
the black from it will be connected to the black of a second cable
that goes to the switch. The light is also connected to that black
wire, and the fan is connected to the white that returns frm the
switch (the switched "live". Both share the neutral of the "feed"
cable. Switch the wires for the line side of the fan and light, the
light will work on the switch, and the fan will work only with it's
pull-chain.

Another option is you MAY have a 3 wire coming through the switch box
(extremely unlikely) with the black switched and the red run straight
through. Possible, but EXTREMELY unlikely. Again, switching the feeds
on the light and fan(reversing them) will have the same effect.

A lot of jibberish about wires, colors, which way it's wired, etc, when
no one knows what he actually has there.

On 12/7/2015 8:13 AM, bob haller wrote:

you can buy a emote control for that fan light combo, so you can do either whenever you want


Once in a while, an obvious typo is funny.
"emote control" is one such.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/emote

Hey, quit pushing my buttons! You know how
worked up that makes me! I said stop!

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/6/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.
The wouse was wired for just a light, with a "drop switch" setup..
Power and neutral go to the ceiling box - neutral fastened to the
light, power carried down to the switch and back up to the light.
When the fan was installed. the fan was wired in place of the light,
and the light was connected across the power and neutral in the box.
More common is to connect the light to the wall switch and the fan to
the live so the fan runs on the pullchain, switch off or on - and the
light is controlled by the wall switch. Just need to switch 2 wires at
the fan/light.


Here is a pic of the wiring. I just need to hook up the blue wire to the
black wire in order for the fan and the light to work from the wall
switch, correct?

http://i68.tinypic.com/b4ib6c.jpg

On 12/7/2015 10:17 AM, Ron wrote:
On 12/6/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.
The wouse was wired for just a light, with a "drop switch" setup..
Power and neutral go to the ceiling box - neutral fastened to the
light, power carried down to the switch and back up to the light.
When the fan was installed. the fan was wired in place of the light,
and the light was connected across the power and neutral in the box.
More common is to connect the light to the wall switch and the fan to
the live so the fan runs on the pullchain, switch off or on - and the
light is controlled by the wall switch. Just need to switch 2 wires at
the fan/light.

Here is a pic of the wiring. I just need to hook up the blue wire to the black
wire in order for the fan and the light to work from the wall switch, correct?

http://i68.tinypic.com/b4ib6c.jpg

Argh! Half of the information is not visible due to camera angle. :

Before doing anything, verify power to the branch circuit is off.
Turn the light on, verify the bulb is illuminated. Kill the
breaker, verify the bulb is OFF. Make sure no one mucks with the
breaker hereafter!

[Note, I suspect at least ne other outlet/fixture is powered AFTER
this point; see notes below. You might want to identify that
so you know how leisurely your repair can be -- before "someone"
gets annoyed that they are reading in the dark, etc.]

It looks like the ROMEX at top right is bringing power *to* the box
(or, taking it FROM the box and carrying it off to some other Jbox
down the line). There appear to be *two* more ROMEX (?) lines
not visible behind the fam mounting bracket at the lower left.
One of these will be in a similar role as the ROMEX in the upper
right (i.e., bringing power in or carrying it farther down the line).

The *other* (not visible) ROMEX will be the drop to the wall switch.
It currently has it's white wire connected to the two blacks (and blue).
This supplies power (hot) to the wall switch.

[N.B. This white wire should be "taped black" -- i.e., have a piece
of black electrical tape wrapped around it to indicate "this wire
is serving the role of a BLACK/hot wire in this circuit"]

After passing through the switch, this wire returns as the mating
BLACK wire in that strand of ROMEX and is connected to the black
pigtail of the appliance -- i.e., the FAN connection (from your
description of the circuit's operation).

The LIGHT gets power through the blue pigtail -- i.e., ALWAYS (as
it bypasses the switch entirely).

FAN and LIGHT share the white, common "neutral" pigtail (which is
always connected to the neutrals from the ROMEX's that are passing
*through* the box.

If you want the FAN *and* LIGHT to both be "gated" by the wall switch
(i.e., neither will operate unless the switch is ON), then MOVE
the blue pigtail to the wire nut that has the black pigtail
(so, that wirenut will now have black and blue pigtails AND the
"switched black" lead returning from the wall switch).

Don't just naively add the blue wire to the black/black wires.
Make sure the wire hasn't degraded from being twisted in its
previous connection, now untwisted, etc. You may have to trim
off any damaged ends and remove some more insulation to have
"good wire" to play with.

Make sure the two blacks and white-taped-black are also firmly
twisted back together before reattaching the wire nut.

Make sure none of the wires will end up pinched in the box
or by the fan bracket! Remember, fan is designed to wobble
in operation...

N.B. You can often rewire the *appliance* as well. So, you can arrange
for the pull chain to control the FAN and have the LIGHT be "on
all the time" (i.e., whenever the wall switch is ON, the light comes
on; the fan can also be gated on/off through the switch OR can
have power available at all times and turned on/off via the pull
chain)

[This latter is how I prefer to have ceiling fans wired; I *always*
want the light to be easily available and will suffer the inconvenience
of having to pull a chain for the fan!]

Do yourself a favor and put a cable clamp on the piece of ROMEX coming in
from the top right. If the one (two?) at the bottom left is missing a
clamp as well, add one there. You may have to remove the box (at least two
wood screws visible) to get it *into* the knockout on the Jbox... and, may
have a bit of work required to get the whole assembly back up into the
ceiling without enlarging the hole in the drywall. Can't attest to the
stiffness of the support (to which the box AND fan support) are connected
but fans like to introduce vibrations while operating; you don't want
to discover that you're slowly wearing a hole through the insulation where
that ROMEX passes through the knockout (rough edge of Jbox opening).

Also, verify the ground (bare) wire from the "invisible" ROMEX's are actually
present and bonded to the case -- and the other ground wire. Otherwise,
something is not seeing a ground!

On 12/7/2015 11:41 AM, Don Y wrote:

[apologies as I realize the wire/wire nut references may have been ambiguous.
Edited to try to clarify...]

Print a copy of the picture (B&W is OK) and get a marker to label
each wire -- "can't tell the players without a program!"

It looks like the ROMEX at top right is bringing power *to* the box
(or, taking it FROM the box and carrying it off to some other Jbox
down the line). There appear to be *two* more ROMEX (?) lines
not visible behind the fam mounting bracket at the lower left.
One of these will be in a similar role as the ROMEX in the upper
right (i.e., bringing power in or carrying it farther down the line).

I.e., the ROMEX at upper right and *one* of the ones at lower left
are "passing through" the box. The black wires of each are tied together
in the RIGHT RED wire nut -- and the white wires tied together in the
LEFT RED wire nut.

The *other* (not visible) ROMEX will be the drop to the wall switch.
It currently has it's white wire connected to the two blacks (and blue).
This supplies power (hot) to the wall switch.

The drop connects it's white wire to the RIGHT RED wire nut that
brings HOT *through* the Jbox; the black conductor for the drop
connects to the black pigtail in the YELLOW wire nut.

[N.B. This white wire should be "taped black" -- i.e., have a piece
of black electrical tape wrapped around it to indicate "this wire
is serving the role of a BLACK/hot wire in this circuit"]

After passing through the switch, this wire returns as the mating
BLACK wire in that strand of ROMEX and is connected to the black
pigtail of the appliance -- i.e., the FAN connection (from your
description of the circuit's operation).

I.e., the YELLOW wire nut is only HOT when the wall switch is ON.

The LIGHT gets power through the blue pigtail -- i.e., ALWAYS (as
it bypasses the switch entirely).

I.e., the RIGHT RED wire nut is ALWAYS HOT (when the circuit breaker
is ON).

FAN and LIGHT share the white, common "neutral" pigtail (which is
always connected to the neutrals from the ROMEX's that are passing
*through* the box.

The LEFT RED wire nut is ALWAYS NEUTRAL.

If you want the FAN *and* LIGHT to both be "gated" by the wall switch
(i.e., neither will operate unless the switch is ON), then MOVE
the blue pigtail to the wire nut that has the black pigtail
(so, that wirenut will now have black and blue pigtails AND the
"switched black" lead returning from the wall switch).

The YELLOW wire nut is (wall) SWITCHED HOT.

Don't just naively add the blue wire to the black/black wires.
Make sure the wire hasn't degraded from being twisted in its
previous connection, now untwisted, etc. You may have to trim
off any damaged ends and remove some more insulation to have
"good wire" to play with.

Make sure the two blacks and white-taped-black are also firmly
twisted back together before reattaching the wire nut.

That's the RIGHT RED wire nut.

Note that the wire nuts are different colors for a reason; the
RED will accept more wire (total "twisted" thickness) than the
yellow. So, you may find the YELLOW won't fit in place of the
RIGHT RED wirenut (when you're putting everything back together,
don't swap the wirenuts).

It looks like this is all #14AWG so RED and YELLOW should each
accommodate what you have, here... but "just in case", something
you can watch for!

If you opt to remove the fan bracket to make it easier to
access the wires (or, to remove the box to install the
suggested cable clamps), note how the wires are routed
*through* the fan bracket (remember, fan wobbles *on*
that bracket).

I can't verify that the Jbox used is actually suitable (rating)
to carry the mechanical load (wobble, wobble) of the fan.
The points at which the fan bracket connects to the box
should, ideally, transfer the weight directly up to the
base of the Jbox -- and the wooden support to which it
is attached. Note the special mounts in the below
referenced photo:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/attachments/lighting-light-fixtures-ceiling-exhaust-fans/13362d1370126521-ceiling-fan-how-tell-if-wobble-caused-loose-box-fan-rated-box.jpg

located at upper right and lower left. Read inscription stamped
into box.

[Most DIYers don't think through what they are doing and just
do what LOOKS like it MIGHT be correct. Ditto for handyman
hires, etc. Remember, there's a REASON for all these rules! :]

On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 05:13:28 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 5:27:02 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

you can buy a emote control for that fan light combo, so you can do either whenever you want
You can for some/most - but sometimes they don't work. They don't
work if you have LED lighting in the room (from experience)

On Mon, 7 Dec 2015 12:17:15 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.
The wouse was wired for just a light, with a "drop switch" setup..
Power and neutral go to the ceiling box - neutral fastened to the
light, power carried down to the switch and back up to the light.
When the fan was installed. the fan was wired in place of the light,
and the light was connected across the power and neutral in the box.
More common is to connect the light to the wall switch and the fan to
the live so the fan runs on the pullchain, switch off or on - and the
light is controlled by the wall switch. Just need to switch 2 wires at
the fan/light.


Here is a pic of the wiring. I just need to hook up the blue wire to the
black wire in order for the fan and the light to work from the wall
switch, correct?

http://i68.tinypic.com/b4ib6c.jpg
You better call an electrician - you do not haveany romex clamps in
the box where the wires come in, and it is not a "fan rated " box.
Stop screwing around and have it fixed RIGHT.

On 12/6/2015 6:51 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:03:06 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

How does your mother want it to work.

Bear in mind, when the fan runs and no one is in the room, it doesn't
make the room cooler. It makes it warmer. The fan gives off a
little heat and moving air is equivalent to heat, plus it blows the
warm air near the ceiling down to where the people are. Not that fans
are bad -- most people like them -- but they don't help when you're
not in the room and you might want to turn the fan and the light off
then.
The fan still moves the air and keeps the temperature more even from
floor to ceiling. The amount of "heat" added to the room by the fan is
a virtual non issue.

Many fans have a direction switch (located *on* the fan itself -- often
a "slide" switch; usually arranged so sliding it towards the ceiling
causes rotation that moves air upward and sliding it towards the floor
reverses the direction so air moves downward).

Here, things get counterintuitive... :

Pushing air downward creates a bit of a draft on the occupants to
facilitate evaporative cooling (i.e. summer use). Pulling air upwards
ends up pushing the air trapped above the fan (displaced by the air
being drawn upwards) out to the walls and down into the room to heat the
room.

[Intuition suggest the opposite would be the case!]

Of course, the cooling effect only makes sense if there are
entities that can *perspire* in the air flow! A fan running
in an empty room doesn't cool ANYONE!

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:32:07 -0500, FrozenNorth
wrote:

On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.

It could have two hots but it doesn't need two hots. One hot as the
supply is all that's needed. Then a two conductor from there to the
wall switch. That provides all that's needed to have the fan side
always hot and controlled by the pull cord and the light side runs
thru the two conductor to be turned on and off. Or switch the fan and
light if you want it the other way.

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 5:30:59 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 12/6/2015 6:51 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:03:06 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:26:46 -0500, Ron wrote:

My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

How does your mother want it to work.

Bear in mind, when the fan runs and no one is in the room, it doesn't
make the room cooler. It makes it warmer. The fan gives off a
little heat and moving air is equivalent to heat, plus it blows the
warm air near the ceiling down to where the people are. Not that fans
are bad -- most people like them -- but they don't help when you're
not in the room and you might want to turn the fan and the light off
then.
The fan still moves the air and keeps the temperature more even from
floor to ceiling. The amount of "heat" added to the room by the fan is
a virtual non issue.

Many fans have a direction switch (located *on* the fan itself -- often
a "slide" switch; usually arranged so sliding it towards the ceiling
causes rotation that moves air upward and sliding it towards the floor
reverses the direction so air moves downward).

Here, things get counterintuitive... :

Pushing air downward creates a bit of a draft on the occupants to
facilitate evaporative cooling (i.e. summer use). Pulling air upwards
ends up pushing the air trapped above the fan (displaced by the air
being drawn upwards) out to the walls and down into the room to heat the
room.



The last part has been posted, repeated many times, but I'd like
to see a test that it actually raises the temperature of the room
down below. When you move air across the ceiling, you're disturbing
the boundary layer of air and likely increasing the heat loss through
the ceiling. I have mine set to down and only run them in summer.

Seymore4Head was thinking very hard :
On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:36:17 -0500, Ron wrote:

On 12/6/2015 5:32 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2015-12-06 5:26 PM, Ron wrote:
My mom has a ceiling fan with a light kit. When the wall switch (single
toggle) is in the on (up) position the fan will run and when the switch
is in the off position (down) the fan stops running. OK, that is normal.

Here is the problem, the light will only turn on and off using the
chain, and it doesn't matter if the wall switch is in the on or off
position. Wall switch up, light turns on and off with chain. Wall switch
down, light turns on and off with chain. What is going on here?

BTW, this isn't a new problem. She bought the house 6 years ago and it
has just now been brought to my attention.

You have two hots and a neutral in the ceiling box, one hot is switched
and is going to the fan, the unswitched hot is going to the lights. I
would reverse that so the light switch controls the light, then control
the fan from the chains, but that is a personal preference.


OK I'll pull down the cover and look at it. I'm pretty sure every
ceiling fan I've every installed in place of a light fixture only had
black (hot) and a white (neutral) wire. What is the purpose of an
unswitched hot?

You need to decide if you have a reason to leave the fan on when the
light is off.

It is nice that you have a choice of hot and also a switched conductor
in the box, but you could put both on the switched so nothing is on
when you turn off the switch.

Just use a Amazon Echo and you won't have to switch anything by hand.
^^

Everything snipped because the aioe news server - which I've never used
before - doesn't like several lines of quoted text.

Thanks for the help, Don. Installed the clamps and moved the blue wire
to the switched black wire. Didn't have to pull the box to install the
clamps. This house has a walk-in attic, but that room doesn't have any
flooring over it. So I was able to put the clamps through the holes from
above. Fan and light both working from wall switch now. Mom is happy!

On 12/8/2015 5:38 PM, Ron wrote:
Thanks for the help, Don. Installed the clamps and moved the blue wire to the
switched black wire. Didn't have to pull the box to install the clamps. This
house has a walk-in attic, but that room doesn't have any flooring over it. So
I was able to put the clamps through the holes from above.

Sometimes you get lucky... ;-)

Fan and light both working from wall switch now. Mom is happy!

I'd be more concerned about the missing (?) ground connections
(though they may simply have been hidden in the photo) and whether
or not the Jbox was rated to support a fan (mechanical) load...

The missing ground(s) can be a safety hazard for the other boxes
that are fed *from* this one (in addition to the wall switch which
should also have a grounded connection).

The mechanical rating of the box can cause the fan to come
tumbling down... :

Another tip: make sure the cowling that fits up against the
ceiling has a little bit of slop between it and the ceiling.
If you snug it up tight to the ceiling, then as the fan
wobbles, it will crack the ceiling.

On Tue, 08 Dec 2015 20:11:04 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/8/2015 5:38 PM, Ron wrote:
Thanks for the help, Don. Installed the clamps and moved the blue wire to the
switched black wire. Didn't have to pull the box to install the clamps. This
house has a walk-in attic, but that room doesn't have any flooring over it. So
I was able to put the clamps through the holes from above.

Sometimes you get lucky... ;-)

Fan and light both working from wall switch now. Mom is happy!

I'd be more concerned about the missing (?) ground connections
(though they may simply have been hidden in the photo) and whether
or not the Jbox was rated to support a fan (mechanical) load...

The missing ground(s) can be a safety hazard for the other boxes
that are fed *from* this one (in addition to the wall switch which
should also have a grounded connection).

The mechanical rating of the box can cause the fan to come
tumbling down... :

Another tip: make sure the cowling that fits up against the
ceiling has a little bit of slop between it and the ceiling.
If you snug it up tight to the ceiling, then as the fan
wobbles, it will crack the ceiling.
Not if it is installed properly - the fan hangs on a "U" joint or
"gimball" and can pivot anywhere it wants without moving the canopy.
If the canopy is moving, the box is moving, and it will soon come
down.

Proper installation is canopy tight to the ceiling

On 12/9/2015 3:28 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2015 20:11:04 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/8/2015 5:38 PM, Ron wrote:
Thanks for the help, Don. Installed the clamps and moved the blue wire to the
switched black wire. Didn't have to pull the box to install the clamps. This
house has a walk-in attic, but that room doesn't have any flooring over it. So
I was able to put the clamps through the holes from above.

Sometimes you get lucky... ;-)

Fan and light both working from wall switch now. Mom is happy!

I'd be more concerned about the missing (?) ground connections
(though they may simply have been hidden in the photo) and whether
or not the Jbox was rated to support a fan (mechanical) load...

The missing ground(s) can be a safety hazard for the other boxes
that are fed *from* this one (in addition to the wall switch which
should also have a grounded connection).

The mechanical rating of the box can cause the fan to come
tumbling down... :

Another tip: make sure the cowling that fits up against the
ceiling has a little bit of slop between it and the ceiling.
If you snug it up tight to the ceiling, then as the fan
wobbles, it will crack the ceiling.
Not if it is installed properly - the fan hangs on a "U" joint or
"gimball" and can pivot anywhere it wants without moving the canopy.
If the canopy is moving, the box is moving, and it will soon come
down.

Proper installation is canopy tight to the ceiling

That can;t sork -- if the *fan* is allowed to wobble (the cowling
will wobble with it and, inevitably, dig into the ceiling).

I installed a fan above in-laws kitchen table ~35 years ago
and the hanger was a hook-and-eye; hook went through center knockout
of octagonal box into 2x6 straddling ceiling joists. Lift eye on
fan stem onto hook. Connect wires. Slide cowling up fan stem
until *close* to ceiling. Secure set screw.

The two fans on the back porch (here) use special brackets
with a "ball" end on fan stem that slips *into* saddle bracket
secured to Jbox (special boxes with reinforced bosses that
transfer load directly to back/top surface of Jbox). They
have far less wiggle room as the fan motor assemblies are much
wider, shrouded and very close to ceiling -- I can't even see
where the cowling *would* fit against the ceiling (no ceiling
on porch)

On Wed, 09 Dec 2015 22:10:42 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/9/2015 3:28 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Dec 2015 20:11:04 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/8/2015 5:38 PM, Ron wrote:
Thanks for the help, Don. Installed the clamps and moved the blue wire to the
switched black wire. Didn't have to pull the box to install the clamps. This
house has a walk-in attic, but that room doesn't have any flooring over it. So
I was able to put the clamps through the holes from above.

Sometimes you get lucky... ;-)

Fan and light both working from wall switch now. Mom is happy!

I'd be more concerned about the missing (?) ground connections
(though they may simply have been hidden in the photo) and whether
or not the Jbox was rated to support a fan (mechanical) load...

The missing ground(s) can be a safety hazard for the other boxes
that are fed *from* this one (in addition to the wall switch which
should also have a grounded connection).

The mechanical rating of the box can cause the fan to come
tumbling down... :

Another tip: make sure the cowling that fits up against the
ceiling has a little bit of slop between it and the ceiling.
If you snug it up tight to the ceiling, then as the fan
wobbles, it will crack the ceiling.
Not if it is installed properly - the fan hangs on a "U" joint or
"gimball" and can pivot anywhere it wants without moving the canopy.
If the canopy is moving, the box is moving, and it will soon come
down.

Proper installation is canopy tight to the ceiling

That can;t sork -- if the *fan* is allowed to wobble (the cowling
will wobble with it and, inevitably, dig into the ceiling).

I installed a fan above in-laws kitchen table ~35 years ago
and the hanger was a hook-and-eye; hook went through center knockout
of octagonal box into 2x6 straddling ceiling joists. Lift eye on
fan stem onto hook. Connect wires. Slide cowling up fan stem
until *close* to ceiling. Secure set screw.

Only absolute bottom of the line fans have been that way for the last
10 years or more. In other words, just the junkiest of the junky junk.

The two fans on the back porch (here) use special brackets
with a "ball" end on fan stem that slips *into* saddle bracket
secured to Jbox (special boxes with reinforced bosses that
transfer load directly to back/top surface of Jbox). They
have far less wiggle room as the fan motor assemblies are much
wider, shrouded and very close to ceiling -- I can't even see
where the cowling *would* fit against the ceiling (no ceiling
on porch)

Those have the "gimball" and the canopy fits tight to the ceiling (or
junction box) and the fan moves IN the canopy. No whay a properly
tightedned current type fan could ever rub the canopy against the
ceiling.