I'm replacing a ceiling light fixture in my kitchen, we've only lived
in the house a few months. I removed the old light and in the junction
box there are four romex cables coming into the box and the wires for
the light.
So let's call the four Romex cables C1, C2, C3 and C4.

The first 3 are easy, C1, C2, C3 all have their black wires tied
together and all have their white wires tied together (and all ground
wires together).
C4 confuses me a bit (but that's not that hard to do), The black from
C4 goes to the light, the other wire from the light goes to the group
of white wires all tied together which makes sense...but the white
from C4 is tied into the group of black wires. Why would that be? I
would think that the white from C4 would get tied in with the white
wires, not the black wires....does this make sense?
Many thanks

Mash wrote:
I'm replacing a ceiling light fixture in my kitchen, we've only lived
in the house a few months. I removed the old light and in the junction
box there are four romex cables coming into the box and the wires for
the light.
So let's call the four Romex cables C1, C2, C3 and C4.

The first 3 are easy, C1, C2, C3 all have their black wires tied
together and all have their white wires tied together (and all ground
wires together).
C4 confuses me a bit (but that's not that hard to do), The black from
C4 goes to the light, the other wire from the light goes to the group
of white wires all tied together which makes sense...but the white
from C4 is tied into the group of black wires. Why would that be? I
would think that the white from C4 would get tied in with the white
wires, not the black wires....does this make sense?
Many thanks


C4 is a switch leg. White takes current to the switch, and it comes back to
the light on the black.
--
js

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. ----George Bernard Shaw

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.

- Thomas Jefferson

c4 is your switch. the white in it should have been taped black.

s


"Mash" wrote in message
...
I'm replacing a ceiling light fixture in my kitchen, we've only lived
in the house a few months. I removed the old light and in the junction
box there are four romex cables coming into the box and the wires for
the light.
So let's call the four Romex cables C1, C2, C3 and C4.

The first 3 are easy, C1, C2, C3 all have their black wires tied
together and all have their white wires tied together (and all ground
wires together).
C4 confuses me a bit (but that's not that hard to do), The black from
C4 goes to the light, the other wire from the light goes to the group
of white wires all tied together which makes sense...but the white
from C4 is tied into the group of black wires. Why would that be? I
would think that the white from C4 would get tied in with the white
wires, not the black wires....does this make sense?
Many thanks

"Mash" wrote in message
...
I'm replacing a ceiling light fixture in my kitchen, we've only lived
in the house a few months. I removed the old light and in the junction
box there are four romex cables coming into the box and the wires for
the light.
So let's call the four Romex cables C1, C2, C3 and C4.

The first 3 are easy, C1, C2, C3 all have their black wires tied
together and all have their white wires tied together (and all ground
wires together).
C4 confuses me a bit (but that's not that hard to do), The black from
C4 goes to the light, the other wire from the light goes to the group
of white wires all tied together which makes sense...but the white
from C4 is tied into the group of black wires. Why would that be? I
would think that the white from C4 would get tied in with the white
wires, not the black wires....does this make sense?
Many thanks


It was necessary to wire it that way to include the wall switch in the
circuit and have a black wire and a white wire feed the light fixture. If
you were to open up the switch you would find that the white wire is hot and
the black wire is the load feeding the fixture. If the black on the switch
was hot and the white was the load you would end up with two white wires
feeding the light fixture. This wiring scheme is normal and an accepted
practice.

Do not make any changes to the wiring. Just disconnect the two wires from
the existing light fixture and connect the new light fixture to them.

On Nov 5, 11:20*pm, Mash wrote:
I'm replacing a ceiling light fixture in my kitchen, we've only lived
in the house a few months. I removed the old light and in the junction
box there are four romex cables coming into the box and the wires for
the light.
So let's call the four Romex cables C1, C2, C3 and C4.

The first 3 are easy, C1, C2, C3 all have their black wires tied
together and all have their white wires tied together (and all ground
wires together).
C4 confuses me a bit (but that's not that hard to do), The black from
C4 goes to the light, the other wire from the light goes to the group
of white wires all tied together which makes sense...but the white
from C4 is tied into the group of black wires. Why would that be? I
would think that the white from C4 would get tied in with the white
wires, not the black wires....does this make sense?
Many thanks

"we've only lived in the house a few months."

Just curious...what does this have to do with the situation?

It was necessary to wire it that way to include the wall switch in the
circuit and have a black wire and a white wire feed the light fixture. *If
you were to open up the switch you would find that the white wire is hot and
the black wire is the load feeding the fixture. *If the black on the switch
was hot and the white was the load you would end up with two white wires
feeding the light fixture. *This wiring scheme is normal and an accepted
practice.

Do not make any changes to the wiring. *Just disconnect the two wires from
the existing light fixture and connect the new light fixture to them.- Hide quoted text -



Thanks alot for the answers, that makes sense. I have one more
challenge though. The location of the current junction box is not
correct. I actually need to install my light about 1 foot away from
the current lights' location. So I can't just connect the new light to
where the current light is. My plan was to put a cover on the junction
box that is there now.
Then install a new junction box in the new, correct location. So I
guess what I need to do is bring into my new junction box C4 (from the
switch) and C3? Then wire the black from C4 to the light fixture and
take the white from C3 and wire to the other leg of the light
fixture? Then obviously continue the wiring on the old, existing
junction box.
Does that make sense?

c4 is your switch. the white in it should have been taped black.
I'm going to do that. Thanks

*"we've only lived in the house a few months."

Just curious...what does this have to do with the situation?- Hide quoted text -


Good question....I guess I was hoping somebody would bake us a pie for
our new house

On Nov 6, 10:01*am, Mash wrote:
*"we've only lived in the house a few months."

Just curious...what does this have to do with the situation?- Hide quoted text -

Good question....I guess I was hoping somebody would bake us a pie for
our new house

I'll go home and bake a nice apple pie for you this evening. Since I
have no way of getting it to you, I'll eat it for you also.

Welcome to the neigborhood.

On Nov 6, 9:01 am, Mash wrote:
It was necessary to wire it that way to include the wall switch in the
circuit and have a black wire and a white wire feed the light fixture. If
you were to open up the switch you would find that the white wire is hot and
the black wire is the load feeding the fixture. If the black on the switch
was hot and the white was the load you would end up with two white wires
feeding the light fixture. This wiring scheme is normal and an accepted
practice.

Do not make any changes to the wiring. Just disconnect the two wires from
the existing light fixture and connect the new light fixture to them.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks alot for the answers, that makes sense. I have one more
challenge though. The location of the current junction box is not
correct. I actually need to install my light about 1 foot away from
the current lights' location. So I can't just connect the new light to
where the current light is. My plan was to put a cover on the junction
box that is there now.
Then install a new junction box in the new, correct location. So I
guess what I need to do is bring into my new junction box C4 (from the
switch) and C3? Then wire the black from C4 to the light fixture and
take the white from C3 and wire to the other leg of the light
fixture? Then obviously continue the wiring on the old, existing
junction box.
Does that make sense?

I is usually easiest to add a new romex from the old j-box to the new
box. Connect to the wires that feed the light in the old box.


c4 is your switch. the white in it should have been taped black.

I'm going to do that. Thanks

Taping is another method that is used. The wiring is compliant with
the NEC as is. (Tape it if you want to.)

--
bud--

I is usually easiest to add a new romex from the old j-box to the new
box. Connect to the wires that feed the light in the old box.

Yes, that definitely seems easier. Thanks!

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
c4 is your switch. the white in it should have been taped black.

No, it shouldn't.
--
js

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. ----George Bernard Shaw

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.

- Thomas Jefferson

On Nov 6, 7:19*pm, "alarman" wrote:
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
c4 is your switch. *the white in it should have been taped black.

No, it shouldn't.
--
js

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. ----George Bernard Shaw

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.

- Thomas Jefferson

Please expand on your eloquent statement.

Oh yes it should..


s

"alarman" wrote in message
...
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
c4 is your switch. the white in it should have been taped black.

No, it shouldn't.
--
js

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Oh yes it should..

In your DIY world perhaps.
--
js

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. ----George Bernard Shaw

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.

- Thomas Jefferson

alarman wrote:
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Oh yes it should..

In your DIY world perhaps.

And the NEC world as well, if it was indeed as described, the hot carrier.

--

dpb wrote:
alarman wrote:
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Oh yes it should..

In your DIY world perhaps.

And the NEC world as well, if it was indeed as described, the hot
carrier.


It is not done, as a rule, by professional electricians. The NEC refers to
it all right, but it is optional. To say that it "should" be done is absurd.
--
js

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. ----George Bernard Shaw

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.

- Thomas Jefferson

OR in the NEC

s


"alarman" wrote in message
...
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Oh yes it should..

In your DIY world perhaps.
--
js

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul. ----George Bernard Shaw

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.

- Thomas Jefferson

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
OR in the NEC

Hmmm...lessee...Nope, can't find where is says you SHOULD tape the white in
the NEC.

(Hint: It's not done)

js

Yup. That's the way I always read it too. What's more, and probably even
more important in this sort of situation, is to have the end at the switch
taped and identified so someone opening the switch won't think a white wire
is a neutral.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:47:22 -0800, "alarman" wrote:

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
OR in the NEC

Hmmm...lessee...Nope, can't find where is says you SHOULD tape the white
in
the NEC.

(Hint: It's not done)

js

You didn't look very hard

200.7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for
single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white
or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is
used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the
conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white
stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by
painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each
location where the conductor is visible and accessible.


tape is considered an effective means.

wrote:
On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:47:22 -0800, "alarman" wrote:

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
OR in the NEC
Hmmm...lessee...Nope, can't find where is says you SHOULD tape the white in
the NEC.

(Hint: It's not done)

js

You didn't look very hard

200.7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for
single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white
or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is
used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the
conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white
stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by
painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each
location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

tape is considered an effective means.

The 1993 NEC explicitly allowed the white wire to feed a switch without
being remarked. I didn't pickup the change, which was by 2002 and may
have been 1999. If the light was wired under the 1993 (1996?) (or
probably earlier) NEC it is code compliant (though remarking is a good
idea).

=====================
The current language (above) does not appear to allow power feed to a
light, with 3 wire romex to 3-way switches (or 3 and 4-way switches).
The feed to one 3-way with the white as supply would be compliant.
Wiring to the other 3-way and 4-ways does not appear to comply. I would
not call travelers a "supply" wire. I do not see how you can use a
remarked white wire to a 4-way switch, mentioned above.

The way I read the language you have to wire power to 3–way (to 4–way)
to 3-way to light.

--
bud--

wrote:
You didn't look very hard

200.7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for
single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white
or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is
used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the
conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white
stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by
painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each
location where the conductor is visible and accessible.


tape is considered an effective means.

I stand corrected, and admit that I wasn't aware of the NEC change.
--
js

wrote:
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:17:21 -0800, "alarman" wrote:
No problem. I agree the "code churn" caused by a 3 year cycle creates
unnecessary confusion. I really think they should go with a 10 year
cycle and get it right before they print it.


Makes me wonder what else I don't know...old dogs/new tricks.
sigh
--
js

wrote:
On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 12:17:21 -0800, "alarman" wrote:

wrote:
You didn't look very hard

200.7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for
single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white
or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is
used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the
conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white
stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by
painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each
location where the conductor is visible and accessible.


tape is considered an effective means.
I stand corrected, and admit that I wasn't aware of the NEC change.


No problem. I agree the "code churn" caused by a 3 year cycle creates
unnecessary confusion. I really think they should go with a 10 year
cycle and get it right before they print it.

Be careful what you wish for.

I know you said "get it right before they print it" but we all know that
no matter how well intentioned they (and we) are, it is not going to be
perfect - ever. Things change, new ideas come up, old believes are
proved to be wrong.

What do you think would be worse - the code churn caused by a 3 year
cycle or living with whatever is wrong with the current code for 10 years.

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

On Nov 6, 10:01*am, Mash wrote:
*"we've only lived in the house a few months."

Just curious...what does this have to do with the situation?- Hide
quot
ed text -

Good question....I guess I was hoping somebody would bake us a pie
for our new house

I'll go home and bake a nice apple pie for you this evening. Since I
have no way of getting it to you, I'll eat it for you also.

Welcome to the neigborhood.



Can I get summa dat pie too? Oops! Wrong newsgroup :-)

wrote:
On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:33:49 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:47:22 -0800, "alarman" wrote:

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
OR in the NEC
Hmmm...lessee...Nope, can't find where is says you SHOULD tape the white in
the NEC.

(Hint: It's not done)

js

You didn't look very hard

200.7(C)(2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for
single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white
or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is
used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the
conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white
stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by
painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each
location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

tape is considered an effective means.
The 1993 NEC explicitly allowed the white wire to feed a switch without
being remarked. I didn't pickup the change, which was by 2002 and may
have been 1999. If the light was wired under the 1993 (1996?) (or
probably earlier) NEC it is code compliant (though remarking is a good
idea).

=====================
The current language (above) does not appear to allow power feed to a
light, with 3 wire romex to 3-way switches (or 3 and 4-way switches).
The feed to one 3-way with the white as supply would be compliant.
Wiring to the other 3-way and 4-ways does not appear to comply. I would
not call travelers a "supply" wire. I do not see how you can use a
remarked white wire to a 4-way switch, mentioned above.

The way I read the language you have to wire power to 3–way (to 4–way)
to 3-way to light.

I agree there is at least one legal way to wire 3 and 4 way loops that
you can not make comply to this rule. (IE. fed from the center)
You missed your chance to write a proposal for the 2011 to fix it (Nov
7 as I recall) Look at the ROP when it comes out and see if there is a
proposal you can modify with a comment, assuming this is not already
pointed out.

C)(2) made sense when (1996NEC) a white could feed a switch. The section
should have been deleted when that practice was eliminated.

(C)(1) allows a remarked white to be used as a traveler.

The law of unintended consequences.

I never thought of modifying the code by an unrelated comment to the ROP.

--
bud--