Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?

Many thanks,
-T

I like this one, in a friend's mountain vacation home.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell...80WF/203556922

"T" wrote in message ...
Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?

Many thanks,
-T

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Probably not, but maybe. How many wires coming to the current
thermostat. If you're missing one, you'll have to buy a stat that
doesn't need it.

Do you have AC. Usually 4 wires for heat and AC.

If you only have 3 wires, I forget what that means but you probably
have 4. Post back.

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

I think so. Mine does.

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Important: Note what terminal on the current stat each color wire is
attached to. It's possible that they connected the colors in a
non-standard way, and you want to connect to the same terminal, and
not blindly go by the color. If the red wire goes to the R
terminal, the yellow to Y, plus black and green. they wired it in the
standard way,

Do you have a favorite model?

Heidi Klum.

Many thanks,
-T

Micky wrote:
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to re old oneplace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Probably not, but maybe. How many wires coming to the current
thermostat. If you're missing one, you'll have to buy a stat that
doesn't need it.

Do you have AC. Usually 4 wires for heat and AC.

If you only have 3 wires, I forget what that means but you probably
have 4. Post back.

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

I think so. Mine does.

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Important: Note what terminal on the current stat each color wire is
attached to. It's possible that they connected the colors in a
non-standard way, and you want to connect to the same terminal, and
not blindly go by the color. If the red wire goes to the R
terminal, the yellow to Y, plus black and green. they wired it in the
standard way,

Do you have a favorite model?

Heidi Klum.

Many thanks,
-T

OP, looks like you want a programmable one.
Just buy brand name one. Ones with battery are two kinds. One which runs
on battery or one runs on main 24V AC control voltage but battery
is back up in case power failure occurs.

T,

Installing a thermostat is an easy DIY project in many cases. The new
thermostat will have instructions and there are many YouTube videos. It's
unlikely that you'll need to rewire anything. The new thermostat will be a
different shape from the old one, so you may need to touch up the paint
around the stat. Yes, they use batteries.

Dave M.

David L. Martel wrote:
T,

Installing a thermostat is an easy DIY project in many cases. The new
thermostat will have instructions and there are many YouTube videos.
It's unlikely that you'll need to rewire anything. The new thermostat
will be a different shape from the old one, so you may need to touch up
the paint around the stat. Yes, they use batteries.

Dave M.

First timers some times forget to jot down which wire came off from
which terminal, marked like Rh, C, G, W, Y, etc. thinking W terminal
always has white wire, R terminal has red wire which is not the case.
Tag the wires as being removed which terminal it was on.

On 11/20/2015 4:16 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

You'll need to REPLACE the old thermostat with the new one.

Note whether you have ACbrrr or just heat as you'll want
to make sure the new Tstat is comparable (AFAICT, all of them
do heat and cooling).

The number of wires will depend on whether you have heat and
cooling and whether some connections are done in your thermostat
or elsewhere in your HVAC system (some wires are just "connected
together" at the thermostat in some configurations).

Make careful note of the colors of each wire as you remove them
and the indications/labels on the terminals from which they
came (those might be *molded* into the plastic or *printed* on)
Almost all have pretty detailed "brochures" that walk you through
the process.

AFAICT, you can't break anything by miswiring; you'll just end
up without some capability (no heat, no ACbrrr, CONTINUOUS heat,
etc.)

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

Yes. You *might* be able to find one that leeches power from the
control circuit. But, that typically means it won't have much
power to run itself! So, displays won't be as vivid (probably
an LCD with measly backlight).

You'll also have to set the time and date. This is typically displayed
somewhere (so, yet another clock that will be slightly out of sync
with all the other clocks that are out of sync in your home!)

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Yes.

Do you have a favorite model?

There are a LOT of offerings. You should look carefully at their features
and THINK about how you will use it, day to day. More features might mean
more of a PITA to use -- depending on how those features are implemented!

The (cheap) unit we had treated the week as "weekdays" and "weekends"
(M-F + SS). The thinking being that most folks work during the week
and, thus, have a different sleep/wake/activity cycle than on the
weekends. The clock inside the device knew only the Day of Week and
time -- so, no idea which days were holidays, etc.

It had provisions for 4 times and temperatures for the weekday scheedule
and another 4 for the weekend schedule. Typically, you'd set the first
time to be the time you awaken on weekday mornings (or, slightly before
if you want to step OUT of bed into a warm room). The second time would
reflect the time that you left the house (for work). Third time, when you
returned home (from work). And, fourth time, when you retired (to bed).
This, of course, would again be followed by the "first time" the next
morning...

So, you might want the house to be warm when you wake up, a bit cooler
during the day (depends on whether the house is empty of inhabitants/pets
or if it remains occupied -- but with creatures that can tolerate a
slightly cooler temperature than that to which you awoke), up again just
before you return from work, then cool for bedtime. A temperature was
specified alongside each of these "schedule times".

And, the weekends might see you lingering in bed until a bit later
in the day so the first time might be later than it was on weekdays,
etc.

Simple.

You can imagine having a different schedule for each DAY of the week,
as well. So, you could opt to leave the heat on a bit later on Friday
nights if you tended to stay up late at the end of your work week, etc.

The real issue comes with how the device handles your "exceptions".
What happens when Thursday is a holiday? Or, you stay home, sick?
Vacation? etc. I.e., the more flexibility in "programming" (more
"settings"), the more changes you have to make.

[If the device "learns", then how quickly can it learn -- even single
day exceptions? What if you came home early from work; how do you
tell the device this? "I'm home now, pretend it's 5:00!"]

Ours had three buttons easily accessible on the face (which, otherwise,
was just a display of day of week, time of day, current temperature
and "mode"): UP, DOWN and BACKLIGHT (to illuminate the LCD display
which is impossible to read in a darkened room -- e.g., if you wake up
during the night and want to tweek the temperature WITHOUT having to
blind yourself with the overhead light!)

Pressing either UP or DOWN effectively overrode the current temperature
setting. An icon on the display would indicate that there was an override
in effect. At any time, you could see the intended temperature just by
momentarily pressing UP or DOWN (you had to hold it pressed for a couple
of seconds to cause the temperature to be overridden).

So, if you wanted the room a little cooler/warmer (remember, heating AND
cooling), you could nudge the setting a bit.

WHEN THE NEXT SCHEDULED CHANGE came along, the override was automatically
canceled. So, you didn't have to remember to "turn it off" to get back
to the normal operation.

Under an access cover, the remaining controls could be seen. These
included HEAT/COOL/OFF, FAN/AUTO and 4 buttons: PROGRAM, HOLD, RESUME
and DAY/TIME. PROGRAM and DAY/TIME were used to input the settings
(with UP and DOWN to change values). HOLD allowed the current setting
to remain in place (not cancel an override at the next programmed time).
RESUME allowed the current override to be immediately canceled and
the setting returned to whatever the program had stored for it.

Once familiar with the operation, this gave you a lot of flexibility
without requiring lots of instructions or complex command sequences:
UP/DOWN to adjust the temperature NOW; HOLD to keep it that way
indefinitely; RESUME to get back to "normal".

The biggest drawback I saw with the unit was the "4 times per schedule"
approach. E.g., if you want to treat each day as asleep vs. awake,
then you only need TWO times: when you wake up and when you retire.
Yet, you have *four* that need to be programmed.

So, you set the other two to be redundant -- i.e., put in the awaken
time twice and the retire time twice; or, awaken three times and
retire once; etc. This is a horrible kludge. And, when you later decide
to change the schedule (it's winter, have to get up earlier cuz there
are more activities going on!), you now have to replicate those
changes to these redundant settings.

[Not The End of the World but an annoyance, none the same]

Bottom line, think about how tech savvy you (and other occupants)
are and how easily you will adapt to IT'S requirements!

Don Y wrote:
On 11/20/2015 4:16 PM, T wrote:
Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

You'll need to REPLACE the old thermostat with the new one.

Note whether you have ACbrrr or just heat as you'll want
to make sure the new Tstat is comparable (AFAICT, all of them
do heat and cooling).

The number of wires will depend on whether you have heat and
cooling and whether some connections are done in your thermostat
or elsewhere in your HVAC system (some wires are just "connected
together" at the thermostat in some configurations).

Make careful note of the colors of each wire as you remove them
and the indications/labels on the terminals from which they
came (those might be *molded* into the plastic or *printed* on)
Almost all have pretty detailed "brochures" that walk you through
the process.

AFAICT, you can't break anything by miswiring; you'll just end
up without some capability (no heat, no ACbrrr, CONTINUOUS heat,
etc.)

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

Yes. You *might* be able to find one that leeches power from the
control circuit. But, that typically means it won't have much
power to run itself! So, displays won't be as vivid (probably
an LCD with measly backlight).

You'll also have to set the time and date. This is typically displayed
somewhere (so, yet another clock that will be slightly out of sync
with all the other clocks that are out of sync in your home!)

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Yes.

Do you have a favorite model?

There are a LOT of offerings. You should look carefully at their features
and THINK about how you will use it, day to day. More features might mean
more of a PITA to use -- depending on how those features are implemented!

The (cheap) unit we had treated the week as "weekdays" and "weekends"
(M-F + SS). The thinking being that most folks work during the week
and, thus, have a different sleep/wake/activity cycle than on the
weekends. The clock inside the device knew only the Day of Week and
time -- so, no idea which days were holidays, etc.

It had provisions for 4 times and temperatures for the weekday scheedule
and another 4 for the weekend schedule. Typically, you'd set the first
time to be the time you awaken on weekday mornings (or, slightly before
if you want to step OUT of bed into a warm room). The second time would
reflect the time that you left the house (for work). Third time, when you
returned home (from work). And, fourth time, when you retired (to bed).
This, of course, would again be followed by the "first time" the next
morning...

So, you might want the house to be warm when you wake up, a bit cooler
during the day (depends on whether the house is empty of inhabitants/pets
or if it remains occupied -- but with creatures that can tolerate a
slightly cooler temperature than that to which you awoke), up again just
before you return from work, then cool for bedtime. A temperature was
specified alongside each of these "schedule times".

And, the weekends might see you lingering in bed until a bit later
in the day so the first time might be later than it was on weekdays,
etc.

Simple.

You can imagine having a different schedule for each DAY of the week,
as well. So, you could opt to leave the heat on a bit later on Friday
nights if you tended to stay up late at the end of your work week, etc.

The real issue comes with how the device handles your "exceptions".
What happens when Thursday is a holiday? Or, you stay home, sick?
Vacation? etc. I.e., the more flexibility in "programming" (more
"settings"), the more changes you have to make.

[If the device "learns", then how quickly can it learn -- even single
day exceptions? What if you came home early from work; how do you
tell the device this? "I'm home now, pretend it's 5:00!"]

Ours had three buttons easily accessible on the face (which, otherwise,
was just a display of day of week, time of day, current temperature
and "mode"): UP, DOWN and BACKLIGHT (to illuminate the LCD display
which is impossible to read in a darkened room -- e.g., if you wake up
during the night and want to tweek the temperature WITHOUT having to
blind yourself with the overhead light!)

Pressing either UP or DOWN effectively overrode the current temperature
setting. An icon on the display would indicate that there was an override
in effect. At any time, you could see the intended temperature just by
momentarily pressing UP or DOWN (you had to hold it pressed for a couple
of seconds to cause the temperature to be overridden).

So, if you wanted the room a little cooler/warmer (remember, heating AND
cooling), you could nudge the setting a bit.

WHEN THE NEXT SCHEDULED CHANGE came along, the override was automatically
canceled. So, you didn't have to remember to "turn it off" to get back
to the normal operation.

Under an access cover, the remaining controls could be seen. These
included HEAT/COOL/OFF, FAN/AUTO and 4 buttons: PROGRAM, HOLD, RESUME
and DAY/TIME. PROGRAM and DAY/TIME were used to input the settings
(with UP and DOWN to change values). HOLD allowed the current setting
to remain in place (not cancel an override at the next programmed time).
RESUME allowed the current override to be immediately canceled and
the setting returned to whatever the program had stored for it.

Once familiar with the operation, this gave you a lot of flexibility
without requiring lots of instructions or complex command sequences:
UP/DOWN to adjust the temperature NOW; HOLD to keep it that way
indefinitely; RESUME to get back to "normal".

The biggest drawback I saw with the unit was the "4 times per schedule"
approach. E.g., if you want to treat each day as asleep vs. awake,
then you only need TWO times: when you wake up and when you retire.
Yet, you have *four* that need to be programmed.

Not really, one can only program two schedule like wake time and sleep
time skipping two in between leave and return home. Also system mode can
be heat/cool/auto/Off, Fan control setting can be fan auto/fan on/fan off.
Also fan on mode can be set running fan at slower speed or normal speed,
etc. I am not fond of 5-2 programmable ones. I like 7 day programmable
which I can individually or in group settings of any week days. Owner's
manuals are available on-line or with the product in the box. I am
ex-Honeyweller, retired after 40 odd years with the company.

BTW, hold permanent setting over rides whatever regular schedule is. Our
'stat is on hold permanent setting when our cabin sits vacant.


So, you set the other two to be redundant -- i.e., put in the awaken
time twice and the retire time twice; or, awaken three times and
retire once; etc. This is a horrible kludge. And, when you later decide
to change the schedule (it's winter, have to get up earlier cuz there
are more activities going on!), you now have to replicate those
changes to these redundant settings.

[Not The End of the World but an annoyance, none the same]

Bottom line, think about how tech savvy you (and other occupants)
are and how easily you will adapt to IT'S requirements!

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?

Many thanks,
-T
Both I have used here worked on the original wiring. They run off the
24 volts that runs the furnace contril, with battery for memory backup

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?

Many thanks,
-T
I like our current honeywell programmable unit

On 11/20/2015 6:48 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Don Y wrote:

The biggest drawback I saw with the unit was the "4 times per schedule"
approach. E.g., if you want to treat each day as asleep vs. awake,
then you only need TWO times: when you wake up and when you retire.
Yet, you have *four* that need to be programmed.

Not really, one can only program two schedule like wake time and sleep time
skipping two in between leave and return home.

Did you miss my initial comment:
The (cheap) unit we had treated the week as "weekdays" and "weekends"
(M-F + SS).
I.e., there are 4 times *forced* in each schedule; no way to tell it
"I don't need this setting". So, you had to specify *some* time and
*some* temperature.

I had no desire to explore how the device would handle schedules like:
1 8:00A 68F
2 7:00A 99F
3 7:30A 25F
4 5:00P 63F
Would it look at #1 before looking at #2? If so, it would set the
temperature to 68F *at* 8:00A. Would it then ignore #2 -- because
7:00A is already *past*? Or, would it immediately decide, "Hey,
it's after 7:00A so let me change to 99F!"? Likewise, #3?

As a result, the safe approach (given that 4 times/temps HAD to
be programmed) is:
1 8:00A 68F
2 8:00A 68F
3 8:00A 68F
4 5:00P 63F
or:
1 8:00A 68F
2 8:00A 68F
3 5:00P 63F
4 5:00P 63F
or:
1 8:00A 68F
2 5:00P 63F
3 5:00P 63F
4 5:00P 63F
or any equivalent scheme.

Note that schedules like:
1 8:00A 68F
2 9:00A 68F
3 10:00A 68F
4 5:00P 63F
aren't the same as a "temporary override" at 8:05 will be automatically
canceled at 9:00A; any temporary overrides after 9:00 would be canceled
at 10:00, etc.

Also system mode can be
heat/cool/auto/Off, Fan control setting can be fan auto/fan on/fan off.

We had HEAT/OFF/COOL and FAN/AUTO. This lets you turn the fan on without
heat or cooling; lets you turn the fan on with heat *or* cooling (i.e.,
AUTO). And, lets you turn everything off. I believe this covers all
possible cases (unless you want a means of turning the heat/cool on without
any control of temperature!)

Also fan on mode can be set running fan at slower speed or normal speed, etc. I
am not fond of 5-2 programmable ones. I like 7 day programmable which I can
individually or in group settings of any week days.

Sure -- at the expense of more settings to maintain!

Owner's manuals are
available on-line or with the product in the box. I am ex-Honeyweller, retired
after 40 odd years with the company.

BTW, hold permanent setting over rides whatever regular schedule is. Our
'stat is on hold permanent setting when our cabin sits vacant.

I think I said that:

HOLD allowed the current setting to remain in place (not cancel an override
at the next programmed time).
RESUME allowed the current override to be immediately canceled and the
setting returned to whatever the program had stored for it.

Our current approach integrates heat, AC, swamp cooler with other
environmental conditions (humidity, temperature, wind speed, etc.)
in an attempt to control "comfort" instead of just temperature.
If we had room, we'd add a humidifier to the furnace/blower as
humidification plays a big part in "comfort" -- regardless of
heating or cooling (obviously, the swamp cooler can make things
soupy when it's used).

And, we don't have to twiddle with "specific temperatures" but, rather,
think in terms of "it's too cold/hot/dry/wet" or "it's not cold/hot/dry/wet
ENOUGH" and let the system sort out how to make things better. (e.g.,
silly to be turning the AC down much at the end of the day when the
sun will be setting and the thermal load lessening NATURALLY)

On 11/20/2015 05:40 PM, Micky wrote:

[snip]

If you only have 3 wires, I forget what that means but you probably
have 4. Post back.

Could be heat (no A/C) with separate fan control.

[snip]

My 2.5 year old system uses 7 wires. 2-stage heat and cool, and power to
the thermostat. There's actually 10 wires in the wall, 3 for future use.

--
35 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Here at Microsoft, drive head contention is more than just our promise
to you. It's a way of life."

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:13:37 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So, you set the other two to be redundant -- i.e., put in the awaken
time twice and the retire time twice; or, awaken three times and
retire once; etc. This is a horrible kludge. And, when you later decide
to change the schedule (it's winter, have to get up earlier cuz there
are more activities going on!), you now have to replicate those
changes to these redundant settings.

[Not The End of the World but an annoyance, none the same]

Bottom line, think about how tech savvy you (and other occupants)
are and how easily you will adapt to IT'S requirements!

I once had one of these programmable stats. I found it to be a pain in
the ass to set it, and when the battery died, it had to be programmed
all over again. (Not an easy task).

I changed the furnace and the installer put on a new stat, one with no
programming. It only has one option, I can change the temperature, for a
one time use. Then it goes back to the prior setting. OR I can push the
HOLD button, which makes the change permanent.

He said this stat was MADE FOR my new furnace but I could put my
programmable one back after he left, if I wanted. I never put it back. I
would not buy another one. Of course, I should mention that I'm retired
and have no real schedule. When weather allows, I am outdoors a lot, but
the stat dont know when I'm not in the house. But if I go visiting, like
for Thanksgiving, I'll turn it down before I leave.

I never noticed that much savings in my gas bill when I had that
programmable stat. After all, if the temp lowers during the time you're
at work, the furnace has to run a lot longer to raise the temp again.

Just my opinion, but I think those programmable stats are over rated.
And if you dont live on a schedule, they are pretty useless.

NOTE: I only have heating, no cooling!

On 11/20/2015 07:13 PM, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

AFAICT, you can't break anything by miswiring; you'll just end
up without some capability (no heat, no ACbrrr, CONTINUOUS heat,
etc.)

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

Yes. You *might* be able to find one that leeches power from the
control circuit. But, that typically means it won't have much
power to run itself! So, displays won't be as vivid (probably
an LCD with measly backlight).

I have had 3 electronic thermostats.

#1 had no battery at all. It required adding a wire from the furnace
control board.

#2 used batteries only.

#3 (the one I have now) can have batteries but I have never put them in.
It gets power from the furnace. There must be a capacitor in there to
keep the clock going during a power outage (we have had one that lasted
over 3 days).

You'll also have to set the time and date. This is typically displayed
somewhere (so, yet another clock that will be slightly out of sync
with all the other clocks that are out of sync in your home!)

Yes. I wish they'd find a way to keep all clocks right. No backup
batteries needed, clocks set themselves when power comes on and
periodically. And do away with Damn Stupid Time. If you need to do
something earlier or later, do that. Don't play mind games.

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Yes.

[snip]

--
35 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Here at Microsoft, drive head contention is more than just our promise
to you. It's a way of life."

On 11/20/2015 07:13 PM, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

AFAICT, you can't break anything by miswiring; you'll just end
up without some capability (no heat, no ACbrrr, CONTINUOUS heat,
etc.)

Wire it so the A/C compressor runs constantly without the fan. Would
that do it (break something)?

[snip]

--
35 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Giving up witchcraft is, in effect, giving up the Bible." [John Wesley
(1703-1791) English theologian, evangelist, "Journal" (1768)]

On 11/20/2015 07:49 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Both I have used here worked on the original wiring. They run off the
24 volts that runs the furnace contril, with battery for memory backup


Modern thermostats could have EEPROM, so no need for backup for memory.
However, there's still the clock that needs power.

--
35 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Here at Microsoft, drive head contention is more than just our promise
to you. It's a way of life."

On 11/20/2015 07:53 PM, wrote:

[snip]

I like our current honeywell programmable unit


I like the thermostat I have. It's marked "Trane" but I suspect it's
really a Honeywell. It's easy to program, individual settings for each
day of the week, and you can select any or all days to change at once.

--
35 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Here at Microsoft, drive head contention is more than just our promise
to you. It's a way of life."

On 11/20/2015 7:53 PM, Sam E wrote:
On 11/20/2015 07:13 PM, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

AFAICT, you can't break anything by miswiring; you'll just end
up without some capability (no heat, no ACbrrr, CONTINUOUS heat,
etc.)

Wire it so the A/C compressor runs constantly without the fan. Would that do it
(break something)?

But you would know "something is wrong" as soon as you turned
everything on. It's not like you're going to blow a fuse
or cause the furnace to run without the blower, etc. (thereby
catching fire in short order).

By contrast, consider what happens when you wire an electrical
outlet wrong (put HOT on the terminal associated with earth
ground).

On 11/20/2015 7:50 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/20/2015 07:13 PM, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

AFAICT, you can't break anything by miswiring; you'll just end
up without some capability (no heat, no ACbrrr, CONTINUOUS heat,
etc.)

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

Yes. You *might* be able to find one that leeches power from the
control circuit. But, that typically means it won't have much
power to run itself! So, displays won't be as vivid (probably
an LCD with measly backlight).

I have had 3 electronic thermostats.

#1 had no battery at all. It required adding a wire from the furnace control
board.

#2 used batteries only.

#3 (the one I have now) can have batteries but I have never put them in. It
gets power from the furnace. There must be a capacitor in there to keep the
clock going during a power outage (we have had one that lasted over 3 days).

Wanna bet they've got LCD displays? (low power)

You can, conceivably, use the existing wires (as they travel through
the wall) but repurpose them to supply power without adding conductors.
But, that goes above and beyond what a typical homeowner can be expected
to do (there's no cookie cutter way to tell the homeowner how his
particular house might be wired and address those possibilities in
a simple "wiring diagram").

E.g., here, we have a condensate pump to collect and remove the
condensate from the ACbrr's evaporator. This has to condition
any commands to the ACbrr's condenser -- if the "sump" is full,
you don't want any more condensate being generated! (spill)
Likewise, there are sensors that tell the condensate pump when
to empty that sump and, to turn off once it is "no longer full".

But, this shouldn't impact any demands for *heat*! Or, to run
the fan exclusively.

These are invariants -- not the sorts of things that you want
the thermostat to decide (nor subject to any wiring screwups
on the part of the installer/homeowner).

You'll also have to set the time and date. This is typically displayed
somewhere (so, yet another clock that will be slightly out of sync
with all the other clocks that are out of sync in your home!)

Yes. I wish they'd find a way to keep all clocks right. No backup batteries
needed, clocks set themselves when power comes on and periodically. And do away
with Damn Stupid Time. If you need to do something earlier or later, do that.
Don't play mind games.

You can, of course, install "atomic clocks" and let them all sync
to CHU/WWV. But, then you have to make sure the clock knows whether
or not you observe DST (we don't so twice a year I have to tell the
atomic clock that we now "live" in a different time zone).

And, ideally, you want a way to apply a "local offset" to the displayed
time. Many people "trick" themselves by setting the clock ahead a
few minutes so they can be tardy without actually being "late"
(personally, never understood this! Don't you always KNOW that
"this clock is 5 minutes fast"?)

[IMO, folks like this would benefit from a clock that *varied*
its displayed time shift. So, you would never know if it was 5 minutes
fast or 10 minutes slow, etc. Bottom line: learn to discipline
yourself instead of relying on tricks!]

On 11/20/2015 9:27 PM, wrote:

I never noticed that much savings in my gas bill when I had that
programmable stat. After all, if the temp lowers during the time you're
at work, the furnace has to run a lot longer to raise the temp again.

Just my opinion, but I think those programmable stats are over rated.
And if you dont live on a schedule, they are pretty useless.

NOTE: I only have heating, no cooling!


There is a limit on savings if you go too low for the reason you
mentioned.

I don't think of them as useless though. I like it cool for sleeping
but I don't like it cold when I get out of bed. Heat drops down at
night and comes on 15 minutes before my usual wake up time.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:


Do you have a favorite model?

Frankly, in terms of how one raises the temperature if, for example,
he doesn't go to work when he normally would, or how he lowers the
temperature if he goes to sleep a couple hours earlier than normal, or
leaves the house for the day on a weekend day when the temp is set for
70 all day, in terms of that, I don't like any thermostat I've seen.

But one I saw 25 years ago, I liked. I wish I'd bought it then but I
assumed it would be the wave of the future.

Instead of having to look at the number and keep pushing the button to
raise or lower the temp, it had a Next button. If it was in a low
temp period, Next set it to the next higher temp period. If it was
high temp, Next set it to the next lower temp.

But I don't think any stat made is this simple and convenient.

T wrote:
Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?

Many thanks,
-T

I've had a few. Many go bad. I bough a cheap honeywell non program 6 months
ago. The temp swing is too much. On ac, it clicks, then I got to bang on it
to get the compressor to run. I'm going back to WHite Rodgers. Had a
programmable one go bad after 9 years. Bought a non program model. Got to
install. My hvac rapidly heats or cools, so programmable is not needed.

Greg

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 7:10:52 PM UTC-5, David L. Martel wrote:
T,

Installing a thermostat is an easy DIY project in many cases. The new
thermostat will have instructions and there are many YouTube videos. It's
unlikely that you'll need to rewire anything. The new thermostat will be a
different shape from the old one, so you may need to touch up the paint
around the stat. Yes, they use batteries.

Dave M.

+1

Almost any of the programmable thermostats will go in there without
rewiring anything. Everyone I've ever seen uses batteries. The only
reason he would have to rewire anything would be for two reasons.
One would be if he found some rare thermostat that requires power,
in which case he's need a common line and older installations typically
don't have it. The other would be that some thermostats optionally
use the common for power so that the batteries last longer or the
display is backlight. I have a Honeywell VisionPro that has the
backlight feature.

Highly recommend the VisionPro:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111812609032...032%26_rdc%3D1

That is an example of one. Lots of them on Ebay, new and used.

Besides having a nice display, being easy to program, it also has
adaptive recovery. When you setback the temp, it will learn what
time to start the furnace back up to get the temp to where you want
it when the next scheduled change occurs. So, if you have it
scheduled for 70F at 7AM, it starts the furnace back up at the right
time so that it will be there, based on the previous few days of
temp history. It will run without any new wires, but if you have
a common, the display will be backlight all the time. Without it,
it's still readable, lights up when you touch it.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 9:29:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:13:37 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So, you set the other two to be redundant -- i.e., put in the awaken
time twice and the retire time twice; or, awaken three times and
retire once; etc. This is a horrible kludge. And, when you later decide
to change the schedule (it's winter, have to get up earlier cuz there
are more activities going on!), you now have to replicate those
changes to these redundant settings.

[Not The End of the World but an annoyance, none the same]

Bottom line, think about how tech savvy you (and other occupants)
are and how easily you will adapt to IT'S requirements!

I once had one of these programmable stats. I found it to be a pain in
the ass to set it, and when the battery died, it had to be programmed
all over again. (Not an easy task).

I changed the furnace and the installer put on a new stat, one with no
programming. It only has one option, I can change the temperature, for a
one time use. Then it goes back to the prior setting. OR I can push the
HOLD button, which makes the change permanent.

He said this stat was MADE FOR my new furnace but I could put my
programmable one back after he left, if I wanted. I never put it back. I
would not buy another one. Of course, I should mention that I'm retired
and have no real schedule. When weather allows, I am outdoors a lot, but
the stat dont know when I'm not in the house. But if I go visiting, like
for Thanksgiving, I'll turn it down before I leave.

I never noticed that much savings in my gas bill when I had that
programmable stat. After all, if the temp lowers during the time you're
at work, the furnace has to run a lot longer to raise the temp again.


That's true, but while the house is at 60, instead of 70, less heat
is being lost to the outside. Heat transfer through the insulation,
walls, etc is proportional to the temp difference. So you do save, but
how much depends on how long it's setback. It helps, but it's not a
major savings either.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 10:57:18 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/20/2015 9:27 PM, wrote:

I never noticed that much savings in my gas bill when I had that
programmable stat. After all, if the temp lowers during the time you're
at work, the furnace has to run a lot longer to raise the temp again.

Just my opinion, but I think those programmable stats are over rated.
And if you dont live on a schedule, they are pretty useless.

NOTE: I only have heating, no cooling!


There is a limit on savings if you go too low for the reason you
mentioned.


There is no lower limit. Physics says so. Yes, you have to put
back the heat that was slowly lost. But that heat and *more* would
have been used had it been kept at a higher temp all the time.

On 11/20/2015 7:02 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Do you have a favorite model?

Heidi Klum.



LOL....Good answer!

I was never a huge fan of Heidi until I watched her on AGT and then my
fondness grew . I think she'd be a lot of fun. She's now one of my
favorites.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?


Pull the wire out a bit . Likely CAT 5 twisted pairs? Extra wire
wrapped around for extra in case a wire breaks or fails.

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?


Yes. Retains memory.

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?


I like the ones with the 5-2 day settings for the work week and
weekend settings. Mine has an aggravating "voice" that talks to you
but I turn it off

On 11/20/2015 08:27 PM, wrote:

[snip]

Just my opinion, but I think those programmable stats are over rated.
And if you dont live on a schedule, they are pretty useless.

NOTE: I only have heating, no cooling!


I prefer a lower room temperature at night (when heating) and using a
blanket, even if that doesn't save anything.

With cooling, I set a higher temp in the early morning (about get up
time until 9 or 10), to keep it from getting too cold.

--
34 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Anti-abortionists believe that life begins at the moment you agree with
them." [Saturday Night Live]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:20:09 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?


Pull the wire out a bit . Likely CAT 5 twisted pairs? Extra wire
wrapped around for extra in case a wire breaks or fails.


Thermostats are generally NOT cat 5 cable. Cat 5 is a lighter cable
than thermostat cable, and thermostat cable is not "twisted pair"
cable (4 twisted pairs, twisted into a cable)
Standard thermostat cable is 18/5, Newer thermostat cable is 18/7
for heating and cooling systems. It is GENERALLY solid conductor. It
is also generally in a brown sheath. It MUST be "class 2 power limited
circuit cable" to meet code..
Cat 5 cable may work,(actually, I know it will, because I've used it
as a temporary install when moving a thermostat to a different
location to see if that would solve a temperature inbalaance problem
we were experiencing in an office) but it is illegal to install for
use in this application.

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?


Yes. Retains memory.

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?


I like the ones with the 5-2 day settings for the work week and
weekend settings. Mine has an aggravating "voice" that talks to you
but I turn it off

On 11/20/2015 09:53 PM, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

And, ideally, you want a way to apply a "local offset" to the displayed
time. Many people "trick" themselves by setting the clock ahead a
few minutes so they can be tardy without actually being "late"
(personally, never understood this! Don't you always KNOW that
"this clock is 5 minutes fast"?)

I know some people who do that. I never understood why.

[IMO, folks like this would benefit from a clock that *varied*
its displayed time shift. So, you would never know if it was 5 minutes
fast or 10 minutes slow, etc. Bottom line: learn to discipline
yourself instead of relying on tricks!]

Like DST. It's the same kind of trick, just on a larger scale.

--
34 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Anti-abortionists believe that life begins at the moment you agree with
them." [Saturday Night Live]

On 11/21/2015 02:43 AM, gregz wrote:

[snip]

I've had a few. Many go bad. I bough a cheap honeywell non program 6 months
ago. The temp swing is too much. On ac, it clicks, then I got to bang on it
to get the compressor to run. I'm going back to WHite Rodgers. Had a
programmable one go bad after 9 years. Bought a non program model. Got to
install. My hvac rapidly heats or cools, so programmable is not needed.

I got tired of feeling like I was freezing at night (summer, A/C left on
all the time). If the night it's very hot, it always gets too cold.

Being too cold is worse when you're paying to be too cold. A blanket is
NOT a solution (in the summer).

--
34 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Anti-abortionists believe that life begins at the moment you agree with
them." [Saturday Night Live]

On 11/21/2015 2:11 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/20/2015 09:53 PM, Don Y wrote:

[snip]

And, ideally, you want a way to apply a "local offset" to the displayed
time. Many people "trick" themselves by setting the clock ahead a
few minutes so they can be tardy without actually being "late"
(personally, never understood this! Don't you always KNOW that
"this clock is 5 minutes fast"?)

I know some people who do that. I never understood why.

shrug I could understand if it was some really odd offset (7 minutes
and 27 seconds) and you needed to be precise with your appointments.
But, "5, 10, 15, etc. minutes" is a no-brainer -- anyone who can't
walk back that sort of offset in their head isn't *trying*!

[IMO, folks like this would benefit from a clock that *varied*
its displayed time shift. So, you would never know if it was 5 minutes
fast or 10 minutes slow, etc. Bottom line: learn to discipline
yourself instead of relying on tricks!]

Like DST. It's the same kind of trick, just on a larger scale.

It is refreshing *not* to have to change our clocks for DST.
OTOH, we're just as screwed as everyone else because we have
to keep track of whether or not *they* have changed theirs!
("What time is it in Chicago?" "I don't know. Are we on
Colorado time, now, or California time?")

Though seeing the sun rise in the wee hours of the morning
(when NO ONE should be awake!) is a bit distressing...

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:20:09 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 15:16:04 -0800, T wrote:

Hi All,

I would like to replace my 30 years old thermostat
(forced air) with an electronic one that will allow
me to set the temperature based on the time of day.

Questions:

Do I need to "rewire" anything?


Pull the wire out a bit . Likely CAT 5 twisted pairs?

30 years ago or more? My house has 4-conductor phone wire. Radio
interference is not a problem.

Extra wire
wrapped around for extra in case a wire breaks or fails.

Do I presume correctly that electronic thermostats have
their own battery?


Yes. Retains memory.

And do I presume correctly that the new thermostat just
attaches to the old thermostat's relay wires?

Do you have a favorite model?


I like the ones with the 5-2 day settings for the work week and
weekend settings. Mine has an aggravating "voice" that talks to you
but I turn it off

I had a car like that.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:05:38 -0500, wrote:

Pull the wire out a bit . Likely CAT 5 twisted pairs? Extra wire
wrapped around for extra in case a wire breaks or fails.


Thermostats are generally NOT cat 5 cable. Cat 5 is a lighter cable
than thermostat cable, and thermostat cable is not "twisted pair"
cable (4 twisted pairs, twisted into a cable)
Standard thermostat cable is 18/5, Newer thermostat cable is 18/7
for heating and cooling systems. It is GENERALLY solid conductor. It
is also generally in a brown sheath. It MUST be "class 2 power limited
circuit cable" to meet code..
Cat 5 cable may work,(actually, I know it will, because I've used it
as a temporary install when moving a thermostat to a different
location to see if that would solve a temperature inbalaance problem
we were experiencing in an office) but it is illegal to install for
use in this application.

http://www.rcstechnology.com/oldsite...0-01761-01.pdf

Cat 5 is / can be used?

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:34:59 -0500, Micky
wrote:

Pull the wire out a bit . Likely CAT 5 twisted pairs?

30 years ago or more? My house has 4-conductor phone wire. Radio
interference is not a problem.

Todd can check what he has and report back.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 14:00:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:05:38 -0500, wrote:

Pull the wire out a bit . Likely CAT 5 twisted pairs? Extra wire
wrapped around for extra in case a wire breaks or fails.


Thermostats are generally NOT cat 5 cable. Cat 5 is a lighter cable
than thermostat cable, and thermostat cable is not "twisted pair"
cable (4 twisted pairs, twisted into a cable)
Standard thermostat cable is 18/5, Newer thermostat cable is 18/7
for heating and cooling systems. It is GENERALLY solid conductor. It
is also generally in a brown sheath. It MUST be "class 2 power limited
circuit cable" to meet code..
Cat 5 cable may work,(actually, I know it will, because I've used it
as a temporary install when moving a thermostat to a different
location to see if that would solve a temperature inbalaance problem
we were experiencing in an office) but it is illegal to install for
use in this application.

http://www.rcstechnology.com/oldsite...0-01761-01.pdf

Cat 5 is / can be used?


Cat 5 will work. From what I understand, in MOST places it may not
pass code.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:01:43 -0500, wrote:

http://www.rcstechnology.com/oldsite...0-01761-01.pdf

Cat 5 is / can be used?


Cat 5 will work. From what I understand, in MOST places it may not
pass code.

Been a decade since I was behind my T-stat. Pretty sure, almost, it
is not phone line due to the color. My guess it is solid core Cat 3 -
4 or 5? It have extra wire pairs in case one breaks.

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:26:13 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 19:01:43 -0500, wrote:

http://www.rcstechnology.com/oldsite...0-01761-01.pdf

Cat 5 is / can be used?


Cat 5 will work. From what I understand, in MOST places it may not
pass code.

Been a decade since I was behind my T-stat. Pretty sure, almost, it
is not phone line due to the color. My guess it is solid core Cat 3 -
4 or 5? It have extra wire pairs in case one breaks.
What you have will be the thermostat wire made for the job. The old
stuff was 5 wire #18, the new stuff is 7 wire #16 class 2 linitted
power circuit cable.. Cat 3, 4, and 5 comm cable is twisted pair cable
for common mode noise rejection.

'stat cable is not twisted pair (not that it couldn't be, but it's
not) Cat 3, 4, or 5 cable is not rated as 24 volt power cable.
Class 2 cable is FT4 minimum, 300 volt minimum insulation (most is
600), and 95 or 103C temperature rated PVC. It is either solid or 16
stranded copper, usually tinned.
It is similar to the old 4 conductor phone wire and the old 2 wire
"bell" wire used for - door bells - although a lot of that was just
twisted and not sheathed.

On 11/21/2015 06:43 AM, Meanie wrote:
On 11/20/2015 7:02 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


Do you have a favorite model?

Heidi Klum.



LOL....Good answer!

I was never a huge fan of Heidi until I watched her on AGT and then my
fondness grew . I think she'd be a lot of fun. She's now one of my
favorites.


way, way too skinny!

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 20:59:53 -0800, T wrote:

On 11/21/2015 06:43 AM, Meanie wrote:
On 11/20/2015 7:02 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Thermostats, and more thermostats

Do you have a favorite model?

Heidi Klum.



LOL....Good answer!

I was never a huge fan of Heidi until I watched her on AGT and then my

She's not really my favorite, just the only name I could think of.

fondness grew . I think she'd be a lot of fun. She's now one of my
favorites.


way, way too skinny!

I didnt' even know that.