I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

**Or if they are both connected to motor scooter whose starter motor
is engaged.


A separate question: The charger I'm using now has 2 amp and 10 amp
settings. It was on 2 amps, to charge a sealed burglar alarm style
lead acid gel battery, used in place of a motorcycle battery in a
motorscooter I'm working on. When I pressed the starter button to
electrically crank the engine, the ammeter on the charger went
immediately all the way to the right, 10 amps or more. But it was
not enough to crank the engine. It made an effort, a little noise,
and stopped immediately.

Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.


And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 11:49:08 PM UTC-6, Micky wrote:
I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

**Or if they are both connected to motor scooter whose starter motor
is engaged.

A separate question: The charger I'm using now has 2 amp and 10 amp
settings. It was on 2 amps, to charge a sealed burglar alarm style
lead acid gel battery, used in place of a motorcycle battery in a
motorscooter I'm working on. When I pressed the starter button to
electrically crank the engine, the ammeter on the charger went
immediately all the way to the right, 10 amps or more. But it was
not enough to crank the engine. It made an effort, a little noise,
and stopped immediately.

Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.

And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.

I once had a large battery charger on wheels that had a jump start setting. I think it put out 100 amps. If you have a way to borrow the battery from your vehicle to start the scooter(you don't have to remove it), you could check the current draw if you have a DC ammeter that will read the high current. I wonder if your scooter has a starter/generator combo? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Scooter Monster

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:48:52 -0500, Micky
wrote:

I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

I've used two battery chargers at the same time on cars many times.
Never had a problem. Of course I'm talking about two small chargers.
Like a 6 AMP and a 10 AMP. I would not connect two 30 or 50 Amp chargers
together. I'm just charging at a rate of 16 AMPS, which charges the
battery faster than the individual chargers. Since you can buy a 30 or
50 A charger, 16 A is still minimal compared to the bigger chargers.

Just sharing my experience, not guaranteeing you can do it safely. But
like i said, I've never had any problems doing it.

On 11/12/2015 11:48 PM, Micky wrote:

X
Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.


And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.




The open circuit voltage of a charger means next to nothing.


The only problem I can see is that most chargers today are automatic and
need to sense battery voltage before they turn on.


If the battery voltage is too low, the charger will not even turn on so
a non-automatic charger would need to be used to get the current flowing.


If the battery is /extremely/ low I've seen situations at work where
we'd have to put the battery on a variable charger and crank the voltage
quite high in order to get the charging process started...then after a
very short time switch the battery over to a conventional charge.


(As you probably know by now I was in the industrial battery business)


At any rate I don't recommend putting two chargers in parallel but on
the other hand I don't see that it would hurt anything just as long as
you disconnected one once the battery got close to 80% charged.


NOTE: To avoid a spark and explosion do not disconnect while under power

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 7:50:38 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 11/12/2015 11:48 PM, Micky wrote:

X
Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.


And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.




The open circuit voltage of a charger means next to nothing.


The only problem I can see is that most chargers today are automatic and
need to sense battery voltage before they turn on.


And or go into maintenance mode, etc. In short it's probably not a
problem with non-smart chargers, but might be with ones that are.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 03:41:20 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:48:52 -0500, Micky
wrote:

I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

I've used two battery chargers at the same time on cars many times.
Never had a problem. Of course I'm talking about two small chargers.
Like a 6 AMP and a 10 AMP. I would not connect two 30 or 50 Amp chargers
together. I'm just charging at a rate of 16 AMPS, which charges the
battery faster than the individual chargers. Since you can buy a 30 or
50 A charger, 16 A is still minimal compared to the bigger chargers.

Just sharing my experience, not guaranteeing you can do it safely. But
like i said, I've never had any problems doing it.

Good enough. Thanks. (Though I've written down your email address
and my estate will be suing you if this proves fatal.)

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:50:32 -0600, philo wrote:

On 11/12/2015 11:48 PM, Micky wrote:

X
Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.


And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.




The open circuit voltage of a charger means next to nothing.


The only problem I can see is that most chargers today are automatic and
need to sense battery voltage before they turn on.


If the battery voltage is too low, the charger will not even turn on so
a non-automatic charger would need to be used to get the current flowing.

Not even an override switch? That seems like a bad idea.

For example, the battery I started with, which I have only for testing
things, had a voltage of 0.1 or 0.2 volts, but I can usually charge it
to 11 volts or more. Actually I'm not sure the battery will help here
since it's sooo bad. But I'm stuck in the mold of my car, where the
oldest crummiest battery I ever had would still, when jumped from
another car, take a charge in about 5 minutes and spit it back to the
starter motor when the jumper cables were too thin to directly start
the car.

Somewhere I think I have an old motorcycle battery I also saved for
testing, but I haven't found it.

If the battery is /extremely/ low I've seen situations at work where
we'd have to put the battery on a variable charger and crank the voltage
quite high in order to get the charging process started...then after a
very short time switch the battery over to a conventional charge.


(As you probably know by now I was in the industrial battery business)

Yes. I'm sure you know what you're talking about.

At any rate I don't recommend putting two chargers in parallel but on
the other hand I don't see that it would hurt anything just as long as
you disconnected one once the battery got close to 80% charged.

Okay. Once the scooter starts running, it has its own
alternator/rectifier.

I'm told on a scooter forum that there are scooters that run on AC
current mostly and that they will start without a battery, but that
those that are DC won't. (or perhaps it's enough if they have a
charger connected.)

For the AC current scooters, seems to me, they should make AC
batteries. Isn't AC Delco a big maker of AC batteries?


NOTE: To avoid a spark and explosion do not disconnect while under power

On 11/13/2015 07:54 AM, Micky wrote:

For example, the battery I started with, which I have only for testing
things, had a voltage of 0.1 or 0.2 volts, but I can usually charge it
to 11 volts or more. Actually I'm not sure the battery will help here
since it's sooo bad. But I'm stuck in the mold of my car, where the
oldest crummiest battery I ever had would still, when jumped from
another car, take a charge in about 5 minutes and spit it back to the
starter motor when the jumper cables were too thin to directly start
the car.


If the battery was brought down to a very low voltage but charged within
a few days, it should recover (if it was OK to begin with)


However if a battery is left to sit "dead" for a very long time...once
stage 3 sulfation (permanent crystallization) has set in...there is zero
chance of it being recovered.

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 6:50:38 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/12/2015 11:48 PM, Micky wrote:

X
Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.

And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.

The open circuit voltage of a charger means next to nothing.

The only problem I can see is that most chargers today are automatic and
need to sense battery voltage before they turn on.

If the battery voltage is too low, the charger will not even turn on so
a non-automatic charger would need to be used to get the current flowing.

If the battery is /extremely/ low I've seen situations at work where
we'd have to put the battery on a variable charger and crank the voltage
quite high in order to get the charging process started...then after a
very short time switch the battery over to a conventional charge.

(As you probably know by now I was in the industrial battery business)

At any rate I don't recommend putting two chargers in parallel but on
the other hand I don't see that it would hurt anything just as long as
you disconnected one once the battery got close to 80% charged.

NOTE: To avoid a spark and explosion do not disconnect while under power

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short. The newest charger I have is a 6 amp charger that is very light weight because it uses a switching power supply which includes the rejuvenation function. The microprocessor controlled charger automatically senses the battery and switches on. If a battery is too far gone, the charger won't come on. The little charger will charge a low battery that won't start a car in a surprisingly short amount of time. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Charge Monster

On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.



If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Charge Monster

Micky wrote:
I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

**Or if they are both connected to motor scooter whose starter motor
is engaged.


A separate question: The charger I'm using now has 2 amp and 10 amp
settings. It was on 2 amps, to charge a sealed burglar alarm style
lead acid gel battery, used in place of a motorcycle battery in a
motorscooter I'm working on. When I pressed the starter button to
electrically crank the engine, the ammeter on the charger went
immediately all the way to the right, 10 amps or more. But it was
not enough to crank the engine. It made an effort, a little noise,
and stopped immediately.

Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.


And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.


Just amazing!!!!

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an explosive mixture? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster

On 11/13/2015 10:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an explosive mixture? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster




The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.


In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan
going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger
that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a
battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to
recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which
caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to
remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs
in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an
explosive mixture? o_O

There may be some liquids that would explode, but most common ones will not
burn or explode as there is no oxygen to cause that to hapen. The liquid in
the battery is not what explodes with a spark. It is the hydrogen gas given
off when charging that mixes with the oxygen in the air that explodes with
the spark.

The other thing that may cause a battey to explode while charging is the
liquid boils faster than it can eacape and the pressure builds up.

"Micky" wrote in message
...
I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:48:52 -0500, Micky
wrote:

I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

I've used two battery chargers at the same time on cars many times.
Never had a problem. Of course I'm talking about two small chargers.
Like a 6 AMP and a 10 AMP. I would not connect two 30 or 50 Amp chargers
together. I'm just charging at a rate of 16 AMPS, which charges the
battery faster than the individual chargers. Since you can buy a 30 or
50 A charger, 16 A is still minimal compared to the bigger chargers.

Just sharing my experience, not guaranteeing you can do it safely. But
like i said, I've never had any problems doing it.

One of the UK hobby magazines published a project for a super-duper battery
charger involving 3x LV lighting transformers, all assembled in a cheap
steel tool case.

Can't remember which one or how long ago.

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-6, Ian Field wrote:

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

What is an "electric fire" a radiant electric heater?

bob_villain writes:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-6, Ian Field wrote:

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

What is an "electric fire" a radiant electric heater?

Yes, that's how they're referred to in the UK.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:

On 11/13/2015 10:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an explosive mixture? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster




The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.


In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

I had an egg explode Wednesday. Is that related?

I had eaten most of the eggs but there were still 3 left, and I
somehow put the "cardboard" container, that originally held a dozen,
in a cabinet instead of the fridge. I left it there for months. When
I took the container out, I jostled it, I think, and an egg exploded.
Much of the container contained the explosion but some drops escaped
through those holes. Smelled bad.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:


The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.

Isn't that WATER? (H2O)


In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

Does that short cause an internal spark?

I've never understood how a battery can develop a short, unless it's
dropped or crushed to cause the plates to move and touch each other. Or
if some piece of metal was dropped into one of the fill holes, but
that's unlikely unless it's intentionally done.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:49 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 03:41:20 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:48:52 -0500, Micky
wrote:

I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

I've used two battery chargers at the same time on cars many times.
Never had a problem. Of course I'm talking about two small chargers.
Like a 6 AMP and a 10 AMP. I would not connect two 30 or 50 Amp chargers
together. I'm just charging at a rate of 16 AMPS, which charges the
battery faster than the individual chargers. Since you can buy a 30 or
50 A charger, 16 A is still minimal compared to the bigger chargers.

Just sharing my experience, not guaranteeing you can do it safely. But
like i said, I've never had any problems doing it.

Good enough. Thanks. (Though I've written down your email address
and my estate will be suing you if this proves fatal.)

It wont be fatal for you, it's only 12volts. But it could damage a
charger or battery, although I have never had that happen. My chargers
are old, so they dont have all the circuitry that some new ones have.
It's just a transformer, some diodes, and a reset to shut it down in the
event of a direct short. Very simple, and I have fixed several of them
over the years. Usually it's a bad diode or two, or that reset device
fails. I did have one burn the transformer out, after it got rained on.
I learned that the hard way! I always cover them now if they are in use
outdoors.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:59:33 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:


The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.

Isn't that WATER? (H2O)

I think it emits H2 at one electrode per cell, and O2 at the other.

If you could save the two, you could put them in a fuel cell and make
electricity, but not as much as it took to separate them.


In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

Does that short cause an internal spark?

I've never understood how a battery can develop a short, unless it's
dropped or crushed to cause the plates to move and touch each other. Or
if some piece of metal was dropped into one of the fill holes, but
that's unlikely unless it's intentionally done.

I had a car that ran fine until I turned it off and tried to restart
it. It took me a few days, but I figured out I had to wait maybe 20
minutes, and I concluded that when hot, two plates shorted out one
cell. When they got cold and separated the car started okay. But I
still got a new battery. It wasn't especially old or special in any
way, ttbomm.

writes:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:


The liquid itself is not explosive
but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.

Isn't that WATER? (H2O)

Nope.
H2 and O2 are not the same thing as H2O.

When those 2 gases are in close proximity you stand a good
chance of an explosion.
That's where the water comes in.

--
Dan Espen

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:45:40 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:

writes:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:


The liquid itself is not explosive
but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.

Isn't that WATER? (H2O)

Nope.
H2 and O2 are not the same thing as H2O.

When those 2 gases are in close proximity you stand a good
chance of an explosion.
That's where the water comes in.

I've heard that the Graf Zeppelin was designed to run on helium, but
because of the war, the US had embargoed Germany from getting helium.

So it used hydrogen, which burns quickly.

On 11/13/2015 05:59 PM, wrote:
ode from an internal short.

Does that short cause an internal spark?

I've never understood how a battery can develop a short, unless it's
dropped or crushed to cause the plates to move and touch each other. Or
if some piece of metal was dropped into one of the fill holes, but
that's unlikely unless it's intentionally done.




"Mossing" the one of the culprits.


It's normal for the battery plates to shed material.
There are insulated separators between the plates and the material
usually settles harmlessly to the bottom sediment chamber.

If the battery is over-charged too often a lot of active material can be
shed and that material slightly resembles moss. It can accumulate around
the ends of the separators .

It can form a conduction path and possibly a short.

What I think a more likely reason for a short however is if a separator
comes loose and slips down.

Again...an internal short bad enough to cause and explosion is quite
rare...I've only heard of it twice in 38 years I was in the business.

On 11/13/2015 10:52 PM, Micky wrote:
not the same thing as H2O.

When those 2 gases are in close proximity you stand a good
chance of an explosion.
That's where the water comes in.

I've heard that the Graf Zeppelin was designed to run on helium, but
because of the war, the US had embargoed Germany from getting helium.

So it used hydrogen, which burns quickly.



I think it was actually re-designed to use hydrogen but it's true that
the US had (and still has) a monopoly on Helium.

When I first heard about that...even though I was very young and very
stupid...

all I thought was ..."Hydrogen?" "Wow was that stupid!"


Just like Kennedy when he came to town in a Lincoln convertible...all I
thought was " He's stupid, he could get shot!"

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 10:58:21 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 10:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.
I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an explosive mixture? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster

The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.

In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

You were "immersed" in lead acid batteries more than me but I'm well aware of the explosive power of hydrogen and oxygen. I've only seen one automobile battery pop but all the caps were off of it and it wasn't very dangerous. I've never smoked so I never worked around cars with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth and I know better than to try using a cigarette lighter as a light source for looking in a battery fill hole to see the electrolyte level. The battery charger I'm thinking of must be the NiCad charger I had that would send a pulse to remove an internal short but the lead acid charger I have is the one with the reconditioning pulse feature. I have all sorts of battery chargers so it's easy for me to get them mixed up in my little pointed head. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Battery Monster

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:44:20 AM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan
going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger
that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a
battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to
recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which
caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to
remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs
in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an
explosive mixture? o_O

There may be some liquids that would explode, but most common ones will not
burn or explode as there is no oxygen to cause that to hapen. The liquid in
the battery is not what explodes with a spark. It is the hydrogen gas given
off when charging that mixes with the oxygen in the air that explodes with
the spark.

The other thing that may cause a battey to explode while charging is the
liquid boils faster than it can eacape and the pressure builds up.

The charging of a lead acid battery produces both hydrogen and oxygen. What makes it dangerous is that the two gasses are concentrated in one place in a lead acid battery that has a reservoir of liquid electrolyte such as in a traditional automotive battery. The newer VRLA, SLA and AGM batteries are less dangerous but can still leak gas if they're overcharged and if there is a malfunction. We drive around in motor vehicles that have a tank of extremely flammable and under the right conditions explosive fuel so the least of my worries is the battery. If you doubt how dangerous these motor vehicles are, watch any Hollywood movie and you'll see vehicles explode in a ball of flames whenever there is an accident or when the vehicle runs off a cliff. Those that run off a cliff often explode in midair or always when they hit the ground. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-6, Ian Field wrote:
"Micky" wrote in message
...
I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

I remember reading that there are still some DC power mains in New York City to supply power to old buildings that have elevators which run on direct current. I don't know if it's true today but it's been a while since I read about it. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle DC Monster

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 3:12:20 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
bob_villain writes:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-6, Ian Field wrote:

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

What is an "electric fire" a radiant electric heater?

Yes, that's how they're referred to in the UK.

My English cousins also refer to a flashlight as a torch. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Torch Monster

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:38:16 PM UTC-6, Micky wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:

On 11/13/2015 10:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an explosive mixture? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster




The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.


In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

I had an egg explode Wednesday. Is that related?

I had eaten most of the eggs but there were still 3 left, and I
somehow put the "cardboard" container, that originally held a dozen,
in a cabinet instead of the fridge. I left it there for months. When
I took the container out, I jostled it, I think, and an egg exploded.
Much of the container contained the explosion but some drops escaped
through those holes. Smelled bad.

I check the gas oven at home before preheating it because me or my housemate may have put our wet sneakers in there to dry out from the heat of the pilot light. Sneakers heated to 350 degrees Fahrenheit smell pretty bad. O_o

[8~{} Uncle Oven Monster

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:38:16 PM UTC-6, Micky wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:

On 11/13/2015 10:47 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an explosive mixture? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster




The liquid itself is not explosive

but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.


In all the years I've worked with lead acid batteries...though it is not
common...they absolutely can explode from an internal short.

I had an egg explode Wednesday. Is that related?

I had eaten most of the eggs but there were still 3 left, and I
somehow put the "cardboard" container, that originally held a dozen,
in a cabinet instead of the fridge. I left it there for months. When
I took the container out, I jostled it, I think, and an egg exploded.
Much of the container contained the explosion but some drops escaped
through those holes. Smelled bad.

I believe that was toxic hydrogen sulfide gas you smelled and it's also quite flammable. That's why farts burn and can set undergarments afire. ^__^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcMQ1FQiby0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WotaR41Pc5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvvwJMWdRRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGSGht1xJww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me2H7Ja93Wg

[8~{} Uncle Fart Monster

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 10:52:19 PM UTC-6, Micky wrote:
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:45:40 -0500, Dan Espen
wrote:

writes:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:58:17 -0600, philo wrote:


The liquid itself is not explosive
but a gassing lead acid battery emits hydrogen and oxygen.

Isn't that WATER? (H2O)

Nope.
H2 and O2 are not the same thing as H2O.

When those 2 gases are in close proximity you stand a good
chance of an explosion.
That's where the water comes in.

I've heard that the Graf Zeppelin was designed to run on helium, but
because of the war, the US had embargoed Germany from getting helium.

So it used hydrogen, which burns quickly.

Try to stay focused on the subject at hand! Most at the time used hydrogen because it can lift more at the same volumn.

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-6, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 3:12:20 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
bob_villain writes:
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-6, Ian Field wrote:

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

What is an "electric fire" a radiant electric heater?

Yes, that's how they're referred to in the UK.

My English cousins also refer to a flashlight as a torch. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Torch Monster

Yes, most have heard of: lift (elevator), lory (truck), and a torch! "Electric fire" is openly "out of date"! You just have to shake your head sometimes!

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:49 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 03:41:20 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:48:52 -0500, Micky
wrote:

I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

I've used two battery chargers at the same time on cars many times.
Never had a problem. Of course I'm talking about two small chargers.
Like a 6 AMP and a 10 AMP. I would not connect two 30 or 50 Amp chargers
together. I'm just charging at a rate of 16 AMPS, which charges the
battery faster than the individual chargers. Since you can buy a 30 or
50 A charger, 16 A is still minimal compared to the bigger chargers.

Just sharing my experience, not guaranteeing you can do it safely. But
like i said, I've never had any problems doing it.

Good enough. Thanks. (Though I've written down your email address
and my estate will be suing you if this proves fatal.)

It wont be fatal for you, it's only 12volts. But it could damage a
charger or battery, although I have never had that happen. My chargers
are old, so they dont have all the circuitry that some new ones have.
It's just a transformer, some diodes, and a reset to shut it down in the
event of a direct short. Very simple, and I have fixed several of them
over the years. Usually it's a bad diode or two, or that reset device
fails. I did have one burn the transformer out, after it got rained on.
I learned that the hard way! I always cover them now if they are in use
outdoors.

Somewhere I've got an ancient charger that the Halfords store used to sell -
the metal case is the only original part.

The rectifier was replaced with one from a motorcycle and the transformer
with one from a Philips black & white portable. The cheap & nasty plastic
moving iron current meter was replaced by an Admiralty bulkhead mounting
instrument.

A resistor was added before the rectifier to limit the current because a TV
PSU transformer doesn't have a charger transformer impedance characteristic.
A couple of big film capacitors were added to make the rectifier voltage
doubling (for some strange reason it actually gets up to about 42V with no
load!). Which works rather well for saving sulphated batteries. Later I
added a big fat electrolytic for zapping whiskered nickel cells.

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:52:41 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:44:20 AM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 9:25:20 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2015 09:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
ower

Hey P. when I was working on a vehicle in a garage, I always had a fan
going, especially when messing with a battery. I have a battery charger
that includes a battery conditioner in the circuitry which zaps a
battery with high voltage pulses to recondition a battery. I seem to
recall a charger I once owned that had a push button control which
caused the charger to hit the battery with a pulse that was supposed to
remove a short.

If a battery with an internal short is "zapped" to clear it...the
battery can explode in the process
.

I considered that and don't recall all the details but if a spark occurs
in a liquid, is there likely to be an explosion if the liquid is not an
explosive mixture? o_O

There may be some liquids that would explode, but most common ones will not
burn or explode as there is no oxygen to cause that to hapen. The liquid in
the battery is not what explodes with a spark. It is the hydrogen gas given
off when charging that mixes with the oxygen in the air that explodes with
the spark.

The other thing that may cause a battey to explode while charging is the
liquid boils faster than it can eacape and the pressure builds up.

The charging of a lead acid battery produces both hydrogen and oxygen. What makes it dangerous is that the two gasses are concentrated in one place in a lead acid battery that has a reservoir of liquid electrolyte such as in a traditional automotive battery. The newer VRLA, SLA and AGM batteries are less dangerous but can still leak gas if they're overcharged and if there is a malfunction. We drive around in motor vehicles that have a tank of extremely flammable and under the right conditions explosive fuel so the least of my worries is the battery. If you doubt how dangerous these motor vehicles are, watch any Hollywood movie and you'll see vehicles explode in a ball of flames whenever there is an accident or when the vehicle runs off a cliff. Those that run off a cliff often explode in midair

That's right, though it does matter what kind of air the car hits.
Most of these movies are shot in California, in hilly areas, and the
air half-way down a hill is very hard and flammable. Even with all
the anti-air-pollution devices on California cars, it's the left-over
effects of previous years that the air has all these chemicals that
act as catalysts to the explosions.

or always when they hit the ground. ^_^

The ground is even worse, because of the mountains. Even where there
are crops or plants growing, the rocks are just a little bit under the
surface, so the ground is hard and like steel on flint, explosions are
nearly 100% likely.

If OTOH, you're in Maryland, the hills are not as great and you have a
chance of leaving the road without an explosion.

[8~{} Uncle Exploding Monster

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:57:51 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:00:52 PM UTC-6, Ian Field wrote:
"Micky" wrote in message
...
I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

Way back when some power stations in the UK produced DC mains - some people
charged their car battery by putting it in series with an electric fire.

These days; you need a pretty hefty bridge rectifier.

I remember reading that there are still some DC power mains in New York City to supply power to old buildings that have elevators which run on direct current. I don't know if it's true today but it's been a while since I read about it. ^_^

I don't know either, but one time I walked by, just a block or so
outside of the Wall St. area, the location of Edison's original power
station. Which was DC of course. Read about the competition between
Edison and Westinghouse, and about electric chair, etc.

[8~{} Uncle DC Monster

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:57:06 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 11:49:08 PM UTC-6, Micky wrote:
I need a DC power supply, bigger than what I've got. Any reason why I
can't connect two automobile battery chargers in parallel to suply the
same vehicle?

Let's say one puts out 13.8 volts and the other 14.2. Is the first
one really going to be a load on the second?

What happens if they are both connected to a discharged lead acid
battery that's now putting out 4 or 8 volts**? Won't that lower the
voltage of the 14.2 charger to where it's not backcharging the 13.8
charger? And won't the battery charge at rate of the sum of the two
chargers, 2 (or 10) amps and 10 amps?

**Or if they are both connected to motor scooter whose starter motor
is engaged.

A separate question: The charger I'm using now has 2 amp and 10 amp
settings. It was on 2 amps, to charge a sealed burglar alarm style
lead acid gel battery, used in place of a motorcycle battery in a
motorscooter I'm working on. When I pressed the starter button to
electrically crank the engine, the ammeter on the charger went
immediately all the way to the right, 10 amps or more. But it was
not enough to crank the engine. It made an effort, a little noise,
and stopped immediately.

Given the way chargers are usually wire, will setting the charger on
10 amps provide more starting power than setting it on 2 amps? I
would have assumed the answer was yes, but the ammeter went to 10 amps
even in the 2 amp setting.

And before anyone brings it up, I've been testing the kick starter
too, and the ignition and fuel systems. I'm making mulitples tests,
in order to test all the systems. Before I recommend spending money
on a battery and a couple other parts.

I once had a large battery charger on wheels that had a jump start setting. I think it put out 100 amps. If you have a way to borrow the battery from your vehicle to start the scooter(you don't have to remove it)

I'm in a townhouse and park in a lot. Almost all the houses are right
next to their parking place, but mine is about 40 feet away. That's
good because my house is at the end and tucked away and a lot of
people, even those who live here, don't even realize I'm here.

But too much trouble to roll the scooter and all the tools and the
radio etc. out there.

Thanks

, you could check the current draw if you have a DC ammeter that will read the high current. I wonder if your scooter has a starter/generator combo? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Scooter Monster