Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any load.

These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:39:22 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any load.

These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Um, put metal screws a short distance from the previous one?

I pull down my aluminum door (one) by hand and have never had screws
work loose, when I have the GD operator disengaged. A photo and a link
back here might help for a better solution. Avoid "carriage bolts".

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:39:22 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any load.

These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

You can use Loc-tite. Might help. But you should install a handle
and stop using the stiffeners - or an electric garage door opener.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 4:39:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Mine is an insulated Masonite Phoenix brand...the 2 lower panels have the stiffeners you describe. They are attached to the lower carriage bolt of the hinges. So move them to the hinges or use though-bolts (carriage) like the rest of the fasteners.

On 9/1/2015 2:50 PM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:39:22 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any load.

These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Um, put metal screws a short distance from the previous one?

There's very little leeway in where you can relocate the fasteners.
There are five "reinforced" places across the width of each panel,
every ~4.5 feet (the door is actually 18 feet wide). The hinges are
fastened to the panels in these reinforced areas as well as the
stiffeners.

Obviously, the pivot point of the hinge can't be located away from
the panel's edge (i.e., "up" or "down") as the hinge would no longer
function. Likewise, it can't be moved sideways off of the reinforced
area as there's nothing of substancew for the screws to bite into
(besides the sheet metal *skin* of the door).

The screws are ~1/4" (1/2 inch heads) so moving them "a short distance"
is more like half an inch or more -- lest the hole be so close to
the previous "stretched out" hole that the reinforcement fail, there.
I can *drill* new holes in the hinges to move the screw locations.
But, that ends up bringing the screws *closer* to each other which
results in more stress being placed on the screws.

E.g., the current screw locations are just over 2 inches apart ("vertically").
Moving *both* of them closer to each other would put them an inch(?) apart!
Hardly an effective way of transferring the mechanical load!

The screws that fasten the stiffener ribs are located on each "side"
(top/bottom) of the rib. The rib being about 1/2" thick (top to bottom)
and the size of the screws means these screws are 1.5" apart. I could
drill new holes in the stiffeners to move the screws to the left or right;
but, then end up moving *off* the reinforced portion of the panel.

I pull down my aluminum door (one) by hand and have never had screws
work loose, when I have the GD operator disengaged. A photo and a link
back here might help for a better solution. Avoid "carriage bolts".

*Lifting* an 18 foot door with the opener disengaged is a wee bit more of
a load than a single width door.

Regardless of any "manual" intervention, the screws fastening the hinges
work themselves loose just from normal use.

The problem lies in the fact that the door is a sealed unit. E.g., you
could mount it "inside out" and not notice any difference (except for
the stiffeners). There is no way to peer into the doors construction
to identify how much reinforcement is within and where, exactly, it
is located.

So, it's like trying to fasten something significant to an interior
(i.e. hollow!) household door -- with the exception that you *know*
the interior door is SOLID at the top/bottom/left/right edges!
(hence, a safe bet for the hinges and door knob hardware!)

On 9/1/2015 3:46 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:39:22 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any load.

These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

You can use Loc-tite. Might help. But you should install a handle
and stop using the stiffeners - or an electric garage door opener.

I suspect loctite would offer too little assistance. The screws are
~1/4" diameter with very coarse threads. They make 1/4-20 bolts look
"fine"!

The stiffeners are rarely used -- they are just the obvious temptation
when the opener is disengaged (perhaps once a year?). And, even ignoring
the stiffeners, there is still the problem of the screws holding the hinges
working themselves loose.

As there are only fixed places on the panels that are reinforced (i.e.,
capable of carrying any focused load), a handle would have to be mounted
vertically:

-+
|
|
-+

instead of horizontally:

+----+
| |

and, only in one of the five places where the panels are reinforced
(two edges, center -- which is where the opener carries the load -- and
midway between center and edges)

If the door is properly lubricated, the force to move it up and down should be fairly small and the pulling out should not occur. Are all the rollers and the hinges properly lubricated???

On 9/1/2015 7:54 PM, wrote:
If the door is properly lubricated, the force to move it up and down should
be fairly small and the pulling out should not occur. Are all the rollers
and the hinges properly lubricated???

I think the problem is the *mass* of the door. The springs are, theoretically,
designed to offset the lifting weight of the door. But, it still has mass
and bulk. When the opener kicks in, the door inevitably "jostles" as it
starts into motion (the opener isn't entirely rigid in its design so acts
like a tuned system). The same applies when the opener abruptly stops
(at end of travel *or* if it detects something in the path)

I think this jostling is what ultimately causes the screws to work their
way loose in the hinges, etc. (the hinges see more of a dynamic load
than the stiffeners!)

On 9/1/2015 6:03 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 4:39:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Mine is an insulated Masonite Phoenix brand...the 2 lower panels have the
stiffeners you describe. They are attached to the lower carriage bolt of the
hinges. So move them to the hinges or use though-bolts (carriage) like the
rest of the fasteners.

There are *no* carriage bolts or any other hardware going *through* the
door. The outside is *smooth* -- devoid of any screw/bolt heads.

With the exception of the topmost stiffener -- which is located along
the very top edge of the door -- the other stiffeners are located a couple
of inches below each of the *lowest* hinge bolts. I can't recall if
the door was "predrilled" for this placement but they are so uniformly
placed that I doubt the installer *measured* the locations so exactly
(and got them *straight* over an 19' span).

Moving the stiffeners up to share the lower hinge screw hole would just mean
needing a longer screw in that position; and, that the screw would now have
to carry the load of the hinge *and* stiffener (instead of splitting this
over two screws).

On 09/01/2015 03:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated*

There are 2-part epoxy glues that if ***used properly*** would hold the brackets/braces in place without mechanical fasteners.
The key is in surface preparation. Get lazy and the glue joints will likely fail.

Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any
load.
These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Threaded pop rivets (to give threads on the hidden side) and bolts.

On 9/2/2015 2:11 AM, Bic wrote:
On 09/01/2015 03:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated*

There are 2-part epoxy glues that if ***used properly*** would hold the
brackets/braces in place without mechanical fasteners.

I'd be leary of using that on anything that is likely to *need* replacement
(e.g., hinges -- the things that seem to be exhibiting the most "screw
migration").

The key is in surface preparation. Get lazy and the glue joints will likely fail.

That's true of most anything -- paint, cement, etc.

On 9/2/2015 2:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any
load.
These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Threaded pop rivets (to give threads on the hidden side) and bolts.

I'm not sure I follow?

The idea that this *suggests* is a pop rivet that I'd introduce
from the back (interior) side *into* one of these "worn out"
sheet metal screw holes.

Said rivet then presenting a threaded *hole* into which the screw
could gain purchase?

I didn't know such things existed. They would need to be *large*.
I.e., the "bolts" would end up as 1/4-20... AT LEAST!

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 19:37:31 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/1/2015 2:50 PM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:39:22 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such, the
internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal "skin".
So, only screws installed in these locations can actually carry any load.

These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one of
these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach it
to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the stiffeners,
hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Um, put metal screws a short distance from the previous one?

There's very little leeway in where you can relocate the fasteners.
There are five "reinforced" places across the width of each panel,
every ~4.5 feet (the door is actually 18 feet wide). The hinges are
fastened to the panels in these reinforced areas as well as the
stiffeners.

Obviously, the pivot point of the hinge can't be located away from
the panel's edge (i.e., "up" or "down") as the hinge would no longer
function. Likewise, it can't be moved sideways off of the reinforced
area as there's nothing of substancew for the screws to bite into
(besides the sheet metal *skin* of the door).

The screws are ~1/4" (1/2 inch heads) so moving them "a short distance"
is more like half an inch or more -- lest the hole be so close to
the previous "stretched out" hole that the reinforcement fail, there.
I can *drill* new holes in the hinges to move the screw locations.
But, that ends up bringing the screws *closer* to each other which
results in more stress being placed on the screws.

E.g., the current screw locations are just over 2 inches apart ("vertically").
Moving *both* of them closer to each other would put them an inch(?) apart!
Hardly an effective way of transferring the mechanical load!

The screws that fasten the stiffener ribs are located on each "side"
(top/bottom) of the rib. The rib being about 1/2" thick (top to bottom)
and the size of the screws means these screws are 1.5" apart. I could
drill new holes in the stiffeners to move the screws to the left or right;
but, then end up moving *off* the reinforced portion of the panel.

I pull down my aluminum door (one) by hand and have never had screws
work loose, when I have the GD operator disengaged. A photo and a link
back here might help for a better solution. Avoid "carriage bolts".

*Lifting* an 18 foot door with the opener disengaged is a wee bit more of
a load than a single width door.

Regardless of any "manual" intervention, the screws fastening the hinges
work themselves loose just from normal use.

The problem lies in the fact that the door is a sealed unit. E.g., you
could mount it "inside out" and not notice any difference (except for
the stiffeners). There is no way to peer into the doors construction
to identify how much reinforcement is within and where, exactly, it
is located.

So, it's like trying to fasten something significant to an interior
(i.e. hollow!) household door -- with the exception that you *know*
the interior door is SOLID at the top/bottom/left/right edges!
(hence, a safe bet for the hinges and door knob hardware!)


Given what you stated, carriage bolts through the door may be the
solution. Use a lock washer under the bolt nut. Perhaps paint the
heads to match the exterior before they are installed.

On 9/2/2015 9:51 AM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 19:37:31 -0700, Don Y

The problem lies in the fact that the door is a sealed unit. E.g., you
could mount it "inside out" and not notice any difference (except for
the stiffeners). There is no way to peer into the doors construction
to identify how much reinforcement is within and where, exactly, it
is located.

So, it's like trying to fasten something significant to an interior
(i.e. hollow!) household door -- with the exception that you *know*
the interior door is SOLID at the top/bottom/left/right edges!
(hence, a safe bet for the hinges and door knob hardware!)

Given what you stated, carriage bolts through the door may be the
solution. Use a lock washer under the bolt nut. Perhaps paint the
heads to match the exterior before they are installed.

That;s what I've been hoping to *avoid*! : E.g., at the very least,
putting just two bolts on each hinge (hoping the remaining sheet metal
screw can continue to serve in its current capacity) means 10 visible
"dots" on an otherwise *smooth* door exterior.

Replacing *all* of the screws (for hinges and stiffeners) would
pepper the exterior of the door with 100 of these! :-/

Don Y wrote:
On 9/2/2015 2:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such,
the internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal
"skin". So, only screws installed in these locations can actually
carry any load.
These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one
of these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach
it to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the
stiffeners, hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Threaded pop rivets (to give threads on the hidden side) and bolts.

I'm not sure I follow?

The idea that this *suggests* is a pop rivet that I'd introduce
from the back (interior) side *into* one of these "worn out"
sheet metal screw holes.

Said rivet then presenting a threaded *hole* into which the screw
could gain purchase?

Right

I didn't know such things existed. They would need to be *large*.
I.e., the "bolts" would end up as 1/4-20... AT LEAST!

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:10:45 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Given what you stated, carriage bolts through the door may be the
solution. Use a lock washer under the bolt nut. Perhaps paint the
heads to match the exterior before they are installed.

That;s what I've been hoping to *avoid*! : E.g., at the very least,
putting just two bolts on each hinge (hoping the remaining sheet metal
screw can continue to serve in its current capacity) means 10 visible
"dots" on an otherwise *smooth* door exterior.

Replacing *all* of the screws (for hinges and stiffeners) would
pepper the exterior of the door with 100 of these! :-/

If the exterior look upsets your neighbor, a visitor or your young
bride -- replace the door -- http://www.martindoor.com/

Check the display at HD or Lowe's :-\

On 9/2/2015 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 9/2/2015 2:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such,
the internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal
"skin". So, only screws installed in these locations can actually
carry any load.
These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one
of these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach
it to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the
stiffeners, hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Threaded pop rivets (to give threads on the hidden side) and bolts.

I'm not sure I follow?

The idea that this *suggests* is a pop rivet that I'd introduce
from the back (interior) side *into* one of these "worn out"
sheet metal screw holes.

Said rivet then presenting a threaded *hole* into which the screw
could gain purchase?

Right

I didn't know such things existed. They would need to be *large*.
I.e., the "bolts" would end up as 1/4-20... AT LEAST!

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

These won't work (at least not the first few pages of results I
skimmed).

They need to be pressed in from the face. But, there's not enough UNYIELDING
material for them to grab onto -- else the screws would work just fine!

A *pop* rivet might work as the portion of the rivet *inside* the door
could mushroom to hold it in place (similar to how a lead anchor works).
Getting at the *inside* of the door is where the trouble lies (if I
could do that, I could just use bolts with *nuts*!)

Don Y writes:
On 9/2/2015 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

These won't work (at least not the first few pages of results I
skimmed).

They need to be pressed in from the face. But, there's not enough UNYIELDING
material for them to grab onto -- else the screws would work just fine!

A rivnut should expand enough on the inside if you select the
proper fastener diameter - which may require to enlarge the existing
hole a bit.


A *pop* rivet might work as the portion of the rivet *inside* the door
could mushroom to hold it in place (similar to how a lead anchor works).

That's also how the rivnut works. The portion inside the door mushrooms.

http://www.rivet-nut.com/Rivnut_Fasteners.asp

See the application/installation/selection guides on the lefthand side.

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 2:46:48 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Don Y writes:
On 9/2/2015 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

These won't work (at least not the first few pages of results I
skimmed).

They need to be pressed in from the face. But, there's not enough UNYIELDING
material for them to grab onto -- else the screws would work just fine!

A rivnut should expand enough on the inside if you select the
proper fastener diameter - which may require to enlarge the existing
hole a bit.


A *pop* rivet might work as the portion of the rivet *inside* the door
could mushroom to hold it in place (similar to how a lead anchor works).

That's also how the rivnut works. The portion inside the door mushrooms.

http://www.rivet-nut.com/Rivnut_Fasteners.asp

See the application/installation/selection guides on the lefthand side.

I have a Marson Thread Setter kit I bought from NAPA years ago. It has a Balkamp label on the box but it's manufactured by Marson. It can be used to install 5 different sizes of threaded inserts from many manufacturers. The threaded insert I used the most of was the "Nutsert Low Profile Open End". I put them in all kinds of material both thick and thin. ^_^

http://tinyurl.com/p7t2xxz

http://www.blindrivetsupply.com/Thre...tAluminum.html

http://www.avdelusallc.com/products/nutsert.shtml

[8~{} Uncle Rivet Monster

Don Y wrote:
On 9/2/2015 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 9/2/2015 2:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such,
the internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short,
"sheet metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door
where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal
"skin". So, only screws installed in these locations can actually
carry any load.
These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the
INEVITABLE mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing
onto one
of these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that
attach it to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior
is "smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the
stiffeners, hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Threaded pop rivets (to give threads on the hidden side) and bolts.

I'm not sure I follow?

The idea that this *suggests* is a pop rivet that I'd introduce
from the back (interior) side *into* one of these "worn out"
sheet metal screw holes.

Said rivet then presenting a threaded *hole* into which the screw
could gain purchase?

Right

I didn't know such things existed. They would need to be *large*.
I.e., the "bolts" would end up as 1/4-20... AT LEAST!

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

These won't work (at least not the first few pages of results I
skimmed).

They need to be pressed in from the face. But, there's not enough
UNYIELDING material for them to grab onto -- else the screws would
work just fine!
A *pop* rivet might work as the portion of the rivet *inside* the door
could mushroom to hold it in place (similar to how a lead anchor
works). Getting at the *inside* of the door is where the trouble lies (if
I
could do that, I could just use bolts with *nuts*!)

You don't have to get to the inside of the door, they are inserted from the
outside and mushroomed (expanded) on the inside. They are pop rivets with
internal threads, very handy,

On 9/2/2015 11:22 AM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:10:45 -0700, Don Y

Replacing *all* of the screws (for hinges and stiffeners) would
pepper the exterior of the door with 100 of these! :-/

If the exterior look upsets your neighbor, a visitor or your young
bride -- replace the door -- http://www.martindoor.com/

It wouldn't look "bad" -- just nowhere near as *nice* as it currently
does "unblemished". Especially given that the bolt heads wouldn't
end up in a nice "grid" pattern.

Check the display at HD or Lowe's :-\

On 9/2/2015 12:46 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Don Y writes:
On 9/2/2015 11:18 AM, dadiOH wrote:

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

These won't work (at least not the first few pages of results I
skimmed).

They need to be pressed in from the face. But, there's not enough UNYIELDING
material for them to grab onto -- else the screws would work just fine!

A rivnut should expand enough on the inside if you select the
proper fastener diameter - which may require to enlarge the existing
hole a bit.


A *pop* rivet might work as the portion of the rivet *inside* the door
could mushroom to hold it in place (similar to how a lead anchor works).

That's also how the rivnut works. The portion inside the door mushrooms.

Ah, OK. So, instead of the "bar" that passes through a *pop* rivet
which is pulled to mushroom the inside, the actual bolt threaded into
it does the "pulling" (as it is tightened)?

The question then would be how *thin* the door material can be and
still work with this (I suspect it's a sheet metal *skin* over a
bit of "channel" fashioned from sheet metal, as well -- esp given
how easily the existing sheet metal screws can enlarge the holes
in normal use and work themselves loose!)

http://www.rivet-nut.com/Rivnut_Fasteners.asp

See the application/installation/selection guides on the lefthand side.

I'll have a look. Thanks!

dadiOH posted for all of us...



Don Y wrote:
On 9/2/2015 2:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Don Y wrote:
Hi,

We have a "double wide" (17'?) *insulated* garage door. As such,
the internal structure of the door is largely hidden.

Across the length of each of the "panels", a metal "stiffener" is
attached. Essentially, like a metal 1x3 fastened "edge on" for
greatest rigidity.

All of the fasteners to the door itself are large, but short, "sheet
metal screws". There seem to be certain places in the door where
"internal members" are present -- beyond just the sheet metal
"skin". So, only screws installed in these locations can actually
carry any load.
These seem to work their way loose over time. Making the INEVITABLE
mistake of trying to lift (or lower) the door by grabbing onto one
of these stiffeners invariably ends up loosening screws that attach
it to the door panel.

As they are sheet metal screws *and* the interior of the door is
inaccessible, there's no real way to tighten them; you end up
having to move to the next larger screw size.

[There's a limit as to how far you can go with this!]

Short of putting carriage bolts *through* the door (the exterior is
"smooth"), what other approaches can I take to secure the
stiffeners, hinges and other hardware to the door panels?

Threaded pop rivets (to give threads on the hidden side) and bolts.

I'm not sure I follow?

The idea that this *suggests* is a pop rivet that I'd introduce
from the back (interior) side *into* one of these "worn out"
sheet metal screw holes.

Said rivet then presenting a threaded *hole* into which the screw
could gain purchase?

Right

I didn't know such things existed. They would need to be *large*.
I.e., the "bolts" would end up as 1/4-20... AT LEAST!

Easy to find...
http://www.grainger.com/category/riv...ecatalog/N-8o5

+1 or just rivets.

--
Tekkie