On 03/05/2015 11:15 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:




Hi,
Some of you jealous or what? There are many reasons installing newer any
thing. Furnace blower will run in summer with A/C. New motors are more
efficient than old ones too. Most electric power consumption on furnace
is by the motor. Is it bad conserving energy for one thing?
Life is not entirely based on monetary value as far as I am concerned.




Just checked my bill (they combine gas an electric) and yep...the
electric portion was less too...so there is that to consider as well.


Anyway even if the furnace only lasts 15 years, the cost of the furnace
is $240 a year.


My gas and electric combined bill for this month was $60 less than last
year (and the av. temp was within one degree). Since the furnace is in
heavy use four months and lighter use for three more...that's certainly
more than $240 .


So it will pay for itself within it's life time and as mentioned a moot
point as I needed one anyway.

On 03/05/2015 11:23 PM, wrote:




snip
ry value as far as I am concerned.
That's what I was saying. It'll never pay for itself in fuel savings
over it's lifespan, but man, the DC blower sure takes a lot less juice
than the old AC blowers did., and the peace of mind- less chance of
being stuck in the cold with a dead furnace- is worth something too.



It actually will, I forgot the look at the electric savings...

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-6, Jack wrote:
On 03/05/2015 09:48 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Believe what you want, but
numbers are numbers and the other posters math that the furnace pays
itself off in 120 months, later corrected to 180 months, isn't calendar
months, it's months of substantial usage. I used 5 months. Adjust it
to 6, 7 of substantial use. You still wind up with a payback of 25
years.


Exactly...and a draft inducer failure is pretty much guaranteed at year 15 or so and draft inducers ain't cheap.

http://www.grainger.com/product/FASC...-Blower-41H437

Woooops...there go the fuel savings.

You can also swap the motor...http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carrier-BDP-...em232678 76a0

To add mine is over nineteen yrs old (Carrier 9200)

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 4:48:22 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 03/05/2015 09:48 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Believe what you want, but
numbers are numbers and the other posters math that the furnace pays
itself off in 120 months, later corrected to 180 months, isn't calendar
months, it's months of substantial usage. I used 5 months. Adjust it
to 6, 7 of substantial use. You still wind up with a payback of 25
years.


Exactly...and a draft inducer failure is pretty much guaranteed at year 15 or so and draft inducers ain't cheap.

http://www.grainger.com/product/FASC...-Blower-41H437

Woooops...there go the fuel savings.

In fairness, that's a mighty expensive blower you found. And
Grainger in my experience, isn't known for being low cost. Here's
a company selling all kinds of inducers for the more typical $125 to $250.

If he's saving $37 a month in fuel costs in a peak month, it seems
to me he'd have the possible cost of an inducer covered in a reasonable
period. Plus I doubt fuel costs in the next couple of decades are
going to be less than they are now. Personally, when it came to
replacing my furnace 4 years ago, I went with a 94%. So far, it's
working perfectly.

I wasn't saying getting a high eff furnace was a bad idea. Only
that there were holes in the math of another poster, ie that it
looked like he was saying the payback for the whole furnace would
be in 150 calendar months, when it's actually 150 months of
usage where he's saving ~$30. Clearly that's not 12 calendar months
a year. But Philo needed a new furnace anyway. In his case, I would
have done what he did too.

Another thing here, while I agree that high efficiency furnaces have
more parts that can potentially fail, I'm not sure apples to apples
comparisons are being made. I think a lot of people are comparing
their experiences with 40 year old 80% gas furnaces to experiences with
a new high eff furnace. I'll bet if you buy an 80% furnace today, it's
probably not built as well, won't last as long, could have more problems
than those old furnaces.

On 2015-03-05 4:27 PM, philo wrote:

(Plus being married, I have to set it higher than what I could deal with
on my own.)

Isn't that the truth?

On 03/06/2015 07:25 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 4:48:22 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 03/05/2015 09:48 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Believe what you want, but
numbers are numbers and the other posters math that the furnace pays
itself off in 120 months, later corrected to 180 months, isn't calendar
months, it's months of substantial usage. I used 5 months. Adjust it
to 6, 7 of substantial use. You still wind up with a payback of 25
years.


Exactly...and a draft inducer failure is pretty much guaranteed at year 15 or so and draft inducers ain't cheap.

http://www.grainger.com/product/FASC...-Blower-41H437

Woooops...there go the fuel savings.

In fairness, that's a mighty expensive blower you found. And
Grainger in my experience, isn't known for being low cost. Here's
a company selling all kinds of inducers for the more typical $125 to $250.

If he's saving $37 a month in fuel costs in a peak month, it seems
to me he'd have the possible cost of an inducer covered in a reasonable
period. Plus I doubt fuel costs in the next couple of decades are
going to be less than they are now. Personally, when it came to
replacing my furnace 4 years ago, I went with a 94%. So far, it's
working perfectly.

I wasn't saying getting a high eff furnace was a bad idea. Only
that there were holes in the math of another poster, ie that it
looked like he was saying the payback for the whole furnace would
be in 150 calendar months, when it's actually 150 months of
usage where he's saving ~$30. Clearly that's not 12 calendar months
a year. But Philo needed a new furnace anyway. In his case, I would
have done what he did too.

Another thing here, while I agree that high efficiency furnaces have
more parts that can potentially fail, I'm not sure apples to apples
comparisons are being made. I think a lot of people are comparing
their experiences with 40 year old 80% gas furnaces to experiences with
a new high eff furnace. I'll bet if you buy an 80% furnace today, it's
probably not built as well, won't last as long, could have more problems
than those old furnaces.




Yep...even if the furnace just goes 15 years it will be well worth it.


And yep to Grainger being high priced.


A few years back I purchased a fractional horsepower motor from them
that was $45 (they had some that were twice as much)

That type of motor is usually $19 or less...but I was there and needed
it...so bought it

On 03/06/2015 07:41 AM, Adam Kubias wrote:
On 2015-03-05 4:27 PM, philo wrote:

(Plus being married, I have to set it higher than what I could deal with
on my own.)

Isn't that the truth?




Yep.

I will give my wife credit for one thing though.


When she moved in here she did not like my perfectly good, oven,
microwave and refrigerator... (OK so we had to hold the fridge door
shut with magnets)
so I told her she could just buy her own then.


Not all at once...but over a few years doggone it she did.



Also believe ... good marriages = separate finances.



If she went broke though I would not let her starve on the street.

(I'd probably let her starve in the basement.)

Adam Kubias wrote:
philo wrote:

(Plus being married, I have to set it higher than what I could deal with
on my own.)

Isn't that the truth?

i used to keep the place at 55F most of the time, but
now we keep it at 58F and bump it up for guests or when
it gets higher humidity and we feel the cold more.

when Ma was working away during the week i could put it
at 55F and just heat this room a little more and that
worked well.

last winter was very cold, we burned about 500 gallons
of propane for the heating season. this winter we will
probably use about 250-300 gallons. the caulking i did
last fall seems to have really helped too. not quite so
many drafts.

if i stick it out here longer term i hope i can get a
hot water solar system going that can also be used for
supplemental heat on the sunny winter days. it seems
such a shame to have to pay for heat and hot water when
the sun is shining... even if it only can help to preheat
hot water that can be quite a bit of energy we don't have
to use otherwise.


songbird

songbird wrote in
:

Adam Kubias wrote:
philo wrote:

(Plus being married, I have to set it higher than what I could deal
with on my own.)

Isn't that the truth?

i used to keep the place at 55F most of the time, but
now we keep it at 58F and bump it up for guests or when
it gets higher humidity and we feel the cold more.

when Ma was working away during the week i could put it
at 55F and just heat this room a little more and that
worked well.

last winter was very cold, we burned about 500 gallons
of propane for the heating season. this winter we will
probably use about 250-300 gallons. the caulking i did
last fall seems to have really helped too. not quite so
many drafts.

if i stick it out here longer term i hope i can get a
hot water solar system going that can also be used for
supplemental heat on the sunny winter days. it seems
such a shame to have to pay for heat and hot water when
the sun is shining... even if it only can help to preheat
hot water that can be quite a bit of energy we don't have
to use otherwise.


songbird


I really like to see that kind of dedication to minimizing energy use.
The less the public uses, the more there is for me.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/5/2015 1:50 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

I went thru same thing couple years ago. They just
installed furnace, gave me CO detector and I declined programmable
thermostat. I installed my own wireless thermostat and the CO detector.
I paid 400.00 less.

What is the advantage of a wireless thermostat? Mine are programmable
and rarely ever touch them. I see T-stats you can change using your
phone, but I've never found the need.
Hi,
There are no wires between 'stat and furnace. So 'stat can be any where
in the house and with Redlink option I can access it through Internet or
smartphone from anywhere. Only thing I don't like is Redlink depends on
Honeywell server. I tried it and disconnected. But I installed RAS for
emergency run mode if and when some thing goes wrong with 'stat, to
prevent freezing in the house.

songbird wrote:
Adam Kubias wrote:
philo wrote:

(Plus being married, I have to set it higher than what I could deal with
on my own.)

Isn't that the truth?

i used to keep the place at 55F most of the time, but
now we keep it at 58F and bump it up for guests or when
it gets higher humidity and we feel the cold more.

when Ma was working away during the week i could put it
at 55F and just heat this room a little more and that
worked well.

last winter was very cold, we burned about 500 gallons
of propane for the heating season. this winter we will
probably use about 250-300 gallons. the caulking i did
last fall seems to have really helped too. not quite so
many drafts.

if i stick it out here longer term i hope i can get a
hot water solar system going that can also be used for
supplemental heat on the sunny winter days. it seems
such a shame to have to pay for heat and hot water when
the sun is shining... even if it only can help to preheat
hot water that can be quite a bit of energy we don't have
to use otherwise.


songbird

Hi,
You must have Eskimo blood?, LOL!

Tony Hwang wrote:
....
You must have Eskimo blood?, LOL!

not really, i much prefer warmer weather as i
can get outside into the gardens. i really hate
cold water and being cold.

it being the rather frozen north country here
in the winter we'd not do so well if we hadn't
a small place that is relatively well insulated.

this past weekend we had a furnace problem and
still could keep the temperature stable with a
few small space heaters and a very inefficient
central propane converted fireplace (which sucks
in cold air about as much as it actually puts out
heat) even when we had overnight lows -10F - -19F
and some wind too.


songbird

On 03/06/2015 09:10 AM, songbird wrote:
Adam Kubias wrote:
philo wrote:

(Plus being married, I have to set it higher than what I could deal with
on my own.)

Isn't that the truth?

i used to keep the place at 55F most of the time, but
now we keep it at 58F and bump it up for guests or when
it gets higher humidity and we feel the cold more.

when Ma was working away during the week i could put it
at 55F and just heat this room a little more and that
worked well.

last winter was very cold, we burned about 500 gallons
of propane for the heating season. this winter we will
probably use about 250-300 gallons. the caulking i did
last fall seems to have really helped too. not quite so
many drafts.

if i stick it out here longer term i hope i can get a
hot water solar system going that can also be used for
supplemental heat on the sunny winter days. it seems
such a shame to have to pay for heat and hot water when
the sun is shining... even if it only can help to preheat
hot water that can be quite a bit of energy we don't have
to use otherwise.


songbird





Even by my standards 55 is a bit cool.

My wife has been trying to convince me to move to Arizona.

If the day comes when I am too old to shovel, I may agree to go.

Thus far I've been holding out OK

On 3/6/2015 10:10 AM, songbird wrote:

i used to keep the place at 55F most of the time, but
now we keep it at 58F and bump it up for guests or when
it gets higher humidity and we feel the cold more.

If I ever visit you, it will be in the summer. I can easily take 67 to
70, lower at night. 55 is below my comfort level.

On 3/6/2015 11:00 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
There are no wires between 'stat and furnace. So 'stat can be any where
in the house and with Redlink option I can access it through Internet or
smartphone from anywhere. Only thing I don't like is Redlink depends on
Honeywell server. I tried it and disconnected.

My Sonata came with a free year of Blue Link and I could start the car
by remote using my phone. It also went through their servers. After a
couple of months I had a regular remote installed.

I'm not going to rely on Honeywell's servers to heat my house properly.

On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 14:57:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/6/2015 11:00 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
There are no wires between 'stat and furnace. So 'stat can be any where
in the house and with Redlink option I can access it through Internet or
smartphone from anywhere. Only thing I don't like is Redlink depends on
Honeywell server. I tried it and disconnected.

My Sonata came with a free year of Blue Link and I could start the car
by remote using my phone. It also went through their servers. After a
couple of months I had a regular remote installed.

I'm not going to rely on Honeywell's servers to heat my house properly.

You two guys have me puzzled. I only have a flip-up stupid phone

On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 06:49:39 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/5/2015 8:40 PM, wrote:
.
You are virtually always better off buying at spot price than signing
a fixed price contract for 2 or more years. (long term)


You expect fuel prices to come down? Not me.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
Natural gas prices on the spot market up here have only very
occaisionally exceded contract prices, while contract prices have
always anticipated increases. I buy my gas direct from Union Gas here
in Ontario - the door to door buys buy the gas from Union Gas too, and
they have to pay the door-to-door goons their comission as well as pay
their stockholders or owners a fat profit. You can be sure they won't
be loosing money - so their price HAS to be higher.

If you want price security you have top pay for it.

On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 06:15:51 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/05/2015 07:45 PM, wrote:



Based on your earlier posts: current bill = $210 which is 85% of you
previous bill of same month last year, so previous bill ~= $247, so saving
approx $37/month; but you wrote that this was a high-heat month, so
gestimating an average saving of $30/month your payback will be
approgimately 120 months. That's pretty good.
120 months of heating - that's 30 years at 4 months of winter per
year - Move north a bit and have 6 months of cold weather and it's
only 20 years.

Maybe you have not been to Wis. but we do have 6-7 months of
winter....no natter what the calendar says.


Anyway all a moot point as I needed a new furnace no matter what

Been to Wisconsin. Have friends at Cascade. Also up in Sheldon. The
summers are beautiful.

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 5:42:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 06:49:39 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/5/2015 8:40 PM, wrote:
.
You are virtually always better off buying at spot price than signing
a fixed price contract for 2 or more years. (long term)


You expect fuel prices to come down? Not me.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
Natural gas prices on the spot market up here have only very
occaisionally exceded contract prices, while contract prices have
always anticipated increases. I buy my gas direct from Union Gas here
in Ontario - the door to door buys buy the gas from Union Gas too, and
they have to pay the door-to-door goons their comission as well as pay
their stockholders or owners a fat profit. You can be sure they won't
be loosing money - so their price HAS to be higher.

If you want price security you have top pay for it.

I think what the companies who guarantee and lock in the price for
customers are doing is hedging it on the futures markets. By doing
that, they can lock in the prices for a year and beyond. That works
fine if the price later goes up, customers will be happy, the company
makes money, etc. But if prices go down sharply, IDK what happens,
because you would think a lot of customers would bail, switch suppliers
and IDK how the company could prevent it, collect, etc. IDK what
the typical contract for locking in even says about any of that.

If you use enough gas, you could hedge on the futures markets yourself,
it's easy to do. But even with the mini contracts, it would be about
$7K worth of nat gas per contract. That would work for a larger business,
apartment buildings, but not for residential.

"philo" wrote in message
...
I just got my first gas bill after a full month of use on my new
hi-efficiency furnace.

On the bill they put a comparison of usage from the present date and
compare it to last year.

Fortunately for the sake of comparison the temp this year averaged one
degree colder than last year but the usage was only 85% as much.

Not only that, since my wife hates the cold, I told her we could keep the
temp, in the house a few degrees warmer at night.

I used to turn it down to 62F and now I just turn it down to 64 or 65



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as the
GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!

On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 19:52:14 -0500, "EXT"
wrote:


"philo" wrote in message
...
I just got my first gas bill after a full month of use on my new
hi-efficiency furnace.

On the bill they put a comparison of usage from the present date and
compare it to last year.

Fortunately for the sake of comparison the temp this year averaged one
degree colder than last year but the usage was only 85% as much.

Not only that, since my wife hates the cold, I told her we could keep the
temp, in the house a few degrees warmer at night.

I used to turn it down to 62F and now I just turn it down to 64 or 65



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as the
GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!
$750 a year here in Ontario for gas.

On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:35:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:




I think what the companies who guarantee and lock in the price for
customers are doing is hedging it on the futures markets. By doing
that, they can lock in the prices for a year and beyond. That works
fine if the price later goes up, customers will be happy, the company
makes money, etc. But if prices go down sharply, IDK what happens,
because you would think a lot of customers would bail, switch suppliers
and IDK how the company could prevent it, collect, etc. IDK what
the typical contract for locking in even says about any of that.


Many contracts prevent you from bailing. They have you locked unless
you are going to hook your gas main to a different pipe someplace. You
really have to read what you sign up for as some switch to variable
rates. Same gas going into the pipe, but the so called gas sellers
bill according to your meter. Quite the scam

If you use enough gas, you could hedge on the futures markets yourself,
it's easy to do. But even with the mini contracts, it would be about
$7K worth of nat gas per contract. That would work for a larger business,
apartment buildings, but not for residential.

Another mine field. They like to contract for a specific amount of
gas. Go over and you pay a higher rate. Go under and you pay a
higher rate. How much gas will you use in each month of the next two
years? Have a very good and very bad month of business and you pay a
penalty. I can predict two weeks ahead, but not much more the way our
business is. .

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 00:28:29 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:35:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:




I think what the companies who guarantee and lock in the price for
customers are doing is hedging it on the futures markets. By doing
that, they can lock in the prices for a year and beyond. That works
fine if the price later goes up, customers will be happy, the company
makes money, etc. But if prices go down sharply, IDK what happens,
because you would think a lot of customers would bail, switch suppliers
and IDK how the company could prevent it, collect, etc. IDK what
the typical contract for locking in even says about any of that.


Many contracts prevent you from bailing. They have you locked unless
you are going to hook your gas main to a different pipe someplace. You
really have to read what you sign up for as some switch to variable
rates. Same gas going into the pipe, but the so called gas sellers
bill according to your meter. Quite the scam

If you use enough gas, you could hedge on the futures markets yourself,
it's easy to do. But even with the mini contracts, it would be about
$7K worth of nat gas per contract. That would work for a larger business,
apartment buildings, but not for residential.

Another mine field. They like to contract for a specific amount of
gas. Go over and you pay a higher rate. Go under and you pay a
higher rate. How much gas will you use in each month of the next two
years? Have a very good and very bad month of business and you pay a
penalty. I can predict two weeks ahead, but not much more the way our
business is. .
They have you locked in that you can't even change to a different
fuel - and here in Ontario before electricity market was deregulated,
when you signed up for fixed price gas (for 5 years) you were also
compelled to deal with them for your electricity "if and when the
market was de-regulated"
Contract gas over the last 8 years or so has been something like 15%
more than spot market gas. That doesn't ean your bill is 15% more
because you still pay the same "storage and delivery" fees, which are
paid to your local gas supplier (union gas in waterloo, Kitchener
Public Utilities in Kitchener) Kitchener was buying "contract gas" to
have a predictable price structure and Kitchener customers paid 90
percent more for the gas portion of their bill last year than Union
Gas customers in Waterloo, due to 2009 gas contracts entered into by
the city utility.

Spot price in Jan 2010 was about $5.75US per million BTU, and $2.00
US in April 2012. In Sept 2014 it was about $2.60US. There was a
short spike in July 2014 to close to $6.00 US. Most of the 2009
contracts would have been for the $6.50 per million BTU range, while
the 4 year average spot price was closer to $3.50.

I paid under $750 per year average for my gas bill in Waterloo at
spot rate. Across the municipal boundary in Kitchener the same gas
bill would have been over $1000. If I had signed a contract with
Direct Energy in 2009 my 2014 gas bill would have been $1400, +/-

Looking at the 7 year gas price graph, march 2015 price is $2.80, and
it has not been over $6 average on a monthly basis since 2009 - with
only 2 spikes over $5 - down from about $14 in 2008.

I don't see natural gas prices reaching 2008 levels again in my
lifetime.

On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 12:28:33 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:35:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:




I think what the companies who guarantee and lock in the price for
customers are doing is hedging it on the futures markets. By doing
that, they can lock in the prices for a year and beyond. That works
fine if the price later goes up, customers will be happy, the company
makes money, etc. But if prices go down sharply, IDK what happens,
because you would think a lot of customers would bail, switch suppliers
and IDK how the company could prevent it, collect, etc. IDK what
the typical contract for locking in even says about any of that.


Many contracts prevent you from bailing. They have you locked unless
you are going to hook your gas main to a different pipe someplace. You
really have to read what you sign up for as some switch to variable
rates. Same gas going into the pipe, but the so called gas sellers
bill according to your meter. Quite the scam

I would assume that they do say that you can't bail. The obvious
problem for them is trying to somehow collect if you do bail. Not
saying they don't have a case, but is it worth it, practical to go
after homeowners scattered all over the place for the amounts involved.
And then you have renters, people who move, people who are judgement
proof. Seems like it would be hard to collect and they would wind
up losing money on a lot of those deals.


If you use enough gas, you could hedge on the futures markets yourself,
it's easy to do. But even with the mini contracts, it would be about
$7K worth of nat gas per contract. That would work for a larger business,
apartment buildings, but not for residential.

Another mine field. They like to contract for a specific amount of
gas. Go over and you pay a higher rate. Go under and you pay a
higher rate. How much gas will you use in each month of the next two
years? Have a very good and very bad month of business and you pay a
penalty. I can predict two weeks ahead, but not much more the way our
business is. .

If you use the future markets yourself, there is no different rates.
You just buy enough futures contracts to equal your typical usage for
that year. You may not cover it exactly, but you would be hedged and
exposed to a small fraction of the risk that you would otherwise. If
you typically use 120 units of energy, and a futures contract is 100
units, you buy one nat gas futures contract. You've now locked in the
price. If you actually use 100, you're perfectly hedged and regardless
of where gas prices go, you won't be affected. If you use
120, you're about 80% hedged, etc. You're still exposed to prices going
up on the 20 units that aren't hedged. It's still a big reduction in risk.
All it takes is brokerage account, a couple thousand bucks, and enough gas
usage to equal at least one futures contract worth.

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 8:03:48 PM UTC-5, EXT wrote:
"philo" wrote in message
...
I just got my first gas bill after a full month of use on my new
hi-efficiency furnace.

On the bill they put a comparison of usage from the present date and
compare it to last year.

Fortunately for the sake of comparison the temp this year averaged one
degree colder than last year but the usage was only 85% as much.

Not only that, since my wife hates the cold, I told her we could keep the
temp, in the house a few degrees warmer at night.

I used to turn it down to 62F and now I just turn it down to 64 or 65



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as the
GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!

I'm in NJ, last two bills were $200, $225 for nat gas.
That's for heat and hot water. House is 3100 sq ft. In summer,
with just hot water, it's $17

On 03/06/2015 04:51 PM, wrote:


Maybe you have not been to Wis. but we do have 6-7 months of
winter....no natter what the calendar says.


Anyway all a moot point as I needed a new furnace no matter what

Been to Wisconsin. Have friends at Cascade. Also up in Sheldon. The
summers are beautiful.




and so are the Winters, I don't usually mind the cold.


Cascade is a beautiful area.


The drive on HWY 33 out to LaCrosse is one of the most beautiful there is.

On 03/06/2015 06:52 PM, EXT wrote:



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as
the GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!




Several things.
I only listed the gas portion but to give a better idea, we get a
combined gas and electric bill.


That was something like $360 which was about $60 less than the same
month last year. To make an honest comparison I was fortunate that the
average temps. were within a degree. (The power company provides plenty
of statistics.)

Anyway there are several things at play here.

1) My house is 118 years old and though I have replaced most of the
windows and done some insulating...the insulation here is not even close
to today's standards.

2) My wife keeps the heat on much higher than I would ever consider.

We semi-compromise by keeping the majority of the house around 68F.

In my own office I keep the heat 62,,,,but in her studio which has
supplementary electric base-board heating. she cranks it up to 85F



The good news is that in summer, out bills are tiny.

We live near the lake and do not need central air... at most just run
one window air conditioner a few days a year.

On 03/06/2015 09:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 19:52:14 -0500, "EXT"
wrote:


"philo" wrote in message
...
I just got my first gas bill after a full month of use on my new
hi-efficiency furnace.

On the bill they put a comparison of usage from the present date and
compare it to last year.

Fortunately for the sake of comparison the temp this year averaged one
degree colder than last year but the usage was only 85% as much.

Not only that, since my wife hates the cold, I told her we could keep the
temp, in the house a few degrees warmer at night.

I used to turn it down to 62F and now I just turn it down to 64 or 65



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as the
GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!
$750 a year here in Ontario for gas.




Do you get a discount if you pay in "Spock" five dollar bills?

On 03/07/2015 07:35 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 8:03:48 PM UTC-5, EXT wrote:
"philo" wrote in message
...
I just got my first gas bill after a full month of use on my new
hi-efficiency furnace.

On the bill they put a comparison of usage from the present date and
compare it to last year.

Fortunately for the sake of comparison the temp this year averaged one
degree colder than last year but the usage was only 85% as much.

Not only that, since my wife hates the cold, I told her we could keep the
temp, in the house a few degrees warmer at night.

I used to turn it down to 62F and now I just turn it down to 64 or 65



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as the
GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!

I'm in NJ, last two bills were $200, $225 for nat gas.
That's for heat and hot water. House is 3100 sq ft. In summer,
with just hot water, it's $17




Nice sized house, do you want to store some 1940's console radios for me?

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 07:55:42 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/06/2015 06:52 PM, EXT wrote:



House is 1900 sq ft but has a basement that I keep slightly heated.

Average temp 15F

total gas charges including surcharges $210


Something I can actually afford

$210.00 for one month!!!!!! Where are you located? I am in Canada and I
only pay $70.00 per month for heat, hot water and cooking, the 10 month
billing will total $700.00 for the year including everything as well as
the GST tax. Now electric costs, we pay through the nose!




Several things.
I only listed the gas portion but to give a better idea, we get a
combined gas and electric bill.


That was something like $360 which was about $60 less than the same
month last year. To make an honest comparison I was fortunate that the
average temps. were within a degree. (The power company provides plenty
of statistics.)

Anyway there are several things at play here.

1) My house is 118 years old and though I have replaced most of the
windows and done some insulating...the insulation here is not even close
to today's standards.

2) My wife keeps the heat on much higher than I would ever consider.

We semi-compromise by keeping the majority of the house around 68F.

In my own office I keep the heat 62,,,,but in her studio which has
supplementary electric base-board heating. she cranks it up to 85F



The good news is that in summer, out bills are tiny.

We live near the lake and do not need central air... at most just run
one window air conditioner a few days a year.
Our electric runs about $1400 per year. 2 or 3 computers running
24/7.AC from a few days to a few weeks per year depending on the
summer. Occaisionally heating the garage for a few hours at a time to
run my lathe in the winter, plus running it in the summer. We have
awitched over to virtually all LED with a few CFL except for the
garage and yard lights which are incandescent. Upgraded the 30 year
old microwave to an inverter model, refrigerator is 22 years old and
the freezer is 34, the AC about 8 or 10 (salvaged from the neighbours
when they replaced furnace and AC with higher efficiency units - AC
was only about 5 years old at the time). It replaced the unit
installed when the house was built 40 odd years ago. Wife uses the
electric drier all winter, hangs laundry out as much as possible in
good weather. Gas water heater, electric range.

We are on time of use billing and my good wife times her laundry and
cooking for the low/mid times and avoids peak use.

On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 05:23:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:




I would assume that they do say that you can't bail. The obvious
problem for them is trying to somehow collect if you do bail. Not
saying they don't have a case, but is it worth it, practical to go
after homeowners scattered all over the place for the amounts involved.
And then you have renters, people who move, people who are judgement
proof. Seems like it would be hard to collect and they would wind
up losing money on a lot of those deals.


If it is like the electric setup here, it is easy. No pay, no gas.
Although my electric supplier is chosen by me, the charges appear on
the consolidated bill and is sent to them by the utility. You can't
change suppliers and skip.

Renters may move to a new location, but they won't get service again
under the same name unless they pay up. Or you will be required to
make an up front deposit.

On 03/07/2015 09:38 AM, wrote:
snip



mise by keeping the majority of the house around 68F.

In my own office I keep the heat 62,,,,but in her studio which has
supplementary electric base-board heating. she cranks it up to 85F



The good news is that in summer, out bills are tiny.

We live near the lake and do not need central air... at most just run
one window air conditioner a few days a year.
Our electric runs about $1400 per year. 2 or 3 computers running
24/7.AC from a few days to a few weeks per year depending on the
summer. Occaisionally heating the garage for a few hours at a time to
run my lathe in the winter, plus running it in the summer. We have
awitched over to virtually all LED with a few CFL except for the
garage and yard lights which are incandescent. Upgraded the 30 year
old microwave to an inverter model, refrigerator is 22 years old and
the freezer is 34, the AC about 8 or 10 (salvaged from the neighbours
when they replaced furnace and AC with higher efficiency units - AC
was only about 5 years old at the time). It replaced the unit
installed when the house was built 40 odd years ago. Wife uses the
electric drier all winter, hangs laundry out as much as possible in
good weather. Gas water heater, electric range.

We are on time of use billing and my good wife times her laundry and
cooking for the low/mid times and avoids peak use.




After I thought about this I realized it was not really a question of
whether or not the furnace would pay for itself...as I needed to replace
it anyway.

It really should have been, was the hi-efficiency type worth the
difference in price as compared to an 80% efficiency type.

Since the furnace was only a few hundred dollars more
and if I got the 80% furnace I'd have needed a $1000 chimney insert...
It paid for itself on the spot.

Even if it's expected life is five years less than the 80% type...
it still will have been worth it.

On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 11:04:15 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 05:23:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:




I would assume that they do say that you can't bail. The obvious
problem for them is trying to somehow collect if you do bail. Not
saying they don't have a case, but is it worth it, practical to go
after homeowners scattered all over the place for the amounts involved.
And then you have renters, people who move, people who are judgement
proof. Seems like it would be hard to collect and they would wind
up losing money on a lot of those deals.


If it is like the electric setup here, it is easy. No pay, no gas.
Although my electric supplier is chosen by me, the charges appear on
the consolidated bill and is sent to them by the utility. You can't
change suppliers and skip.

I think you're right about that. I haven't used a different supplier,
but it would make sense. Right now the separate charges for gas and
delivery show up on the bill. So, I guess the gas utility collects the
money and forwards it on. That would make it easy to enforce.



Renters may move to a new location, but they won't get service again
under the same name unless they pay up. Or you will be required to
make an up front deposit.

Yes, sounds right.

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 14:11:47 -0600, philo wrote:

On 03/07/2015 09:38 AM, wrote:
snip



mise by keeping the majority of the house around 68F.

In my own office I keep the heat 62,,,,but in her studio which has
supplementary electric base-board heating. she cranks it up to 85F



The good news is that in summer, out bills are tiny.

We live near the lake and do not need central air... at most just run
one window air conditioner a few days a year.
Our electric runs about $1400 per year. 2 or 3 computers running
24/7.AC from a few days to a few weeks per year depending on the
summer. Occaisionally heating the garage for a few hours at a time to
run my lathe in the winter, plus running it in the summer. We have
awitched over to virtually all LED with a few CFL except for the
garage and yard lights which are incandescent. Upgraded the 30 year
old microwave to an inverter model, refrigerator is 22 years old and
the freezer is 34, the AC about 8 or 10 (salvaged from the neighbours
when they replaced furnace and AC with higher efficiency units - AC
was only about 5 years old at the time). It replaced the unit
installed when the house was built 40 odd years ago. Wife uses the
electric drier all winter, hangs laundry out as much as possible in
good weather. Gas water heater, electric range.

We are on time of use billing and my good wife times her laundry and
cooking for the low/mid times and avoids peak use.




After I thought about this I realized it was not really a question of
whether or not the furnace would pay for itself...as I needed to replace
it anyway.

It really should have been, was the hi-efficiency type worth the
difference in price as compared to an 80% efficiency type.

Since the furnace was only a few hundred dollars more
and if I got the 80% furnace I'd have needed a $1000 chimney insert...
It paid for itself on the spot.

Even if it's expected life is five years less than the 80% type...
it still will have been worth it.
Here in Ontario you no longer have a choice. Can't install anything
other than high efficiency any more.

On 03/07/2015 06:47 PM, wrote:




After I thought about this I realized it was not really a question of
whether or not the furnace would pay for itself...as I needed to replace
it anyway.

It really should have been, was the hi-efficiency type worth the
difference in price as compared to an 80% efficiency type.

Since the furnace was only a few hundred dollars more
and if I got the 80% furnace I'd have needed a $1000 chimney insert...
It paid for itself on the spot.

Even if it's expected life is five years less than the 80% type...
it still will have been worth it.
Here in Ontario you no longer have a choice. Can't install anything
other than high efficiency any more.




I did not even ask but I think in the US we can still get an 80% furnace.

On 3/7/2015 7:52 PM, philo wrote:
On 03/07/2015 06:47 PM, wrote:

Here in Ontario you no longer have a choice. Can't install anything
other than high efficiency any more.

I did not even ask but I think in the US we can still get an 80% furnace.

With our ever shrinking freedoms, 80% furnace
will go the way of the 3 gal toilet, and the
rifle wtih 10 round detachable magazine. And
refrigerators with freon.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 20:25:33 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/7/2015 7:52 PM, philo wrote:
On 03/07/2015 06:47 PM, wrote:

Here in Ontario you no longer have a choice. Can't install anything
other than high efficiency any more.

I did not even ask but I think in the US we can still get an 80% furnace.

With our ever shrinking freedoms, 80% furnace
will go the way of the 3 gal toilet, and the
rifle wtih 10 round detachable magazine. And
refrigerators with freon.


Sigh. Such a defeatist. The only Liberty and Freedom lost are those
you do not fight for.
--
"Sir, We’re Surrounded. Good, we can attack in any direction" -- Lieutenant General Lewis Burwell "Chesty" Puller

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 08:07:00 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

When 80% furnaces are outlawed....

Wait till they start smuggling them in from Mexico.

"Honey! The furnace install team is here....."
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/...n/migrants.jpg


http://cdn.themetapicture.com/media/funny-crossing-Mexican-border-car.jpg

http://www.picturesandjokes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/illegal-immigrants.jpg