If your house still has Fuses, Stock up on Fuses BEFORE the Holiday!

I'm posting this because I have a vivid memory of going to visit my
uncle, when I was around 10 years old. A fuse blew in his panel. He
did not have any spare fuses, and all the stores were closed. So, he
put a penny behind the fuse. I watched him do it, and even at my young
age, I thought that was dangerous. A little while later there was smoke
coming out of the fuse box. so the main was shut off. We spent the next
few hours of that holiday using candles, and it was getting cold in the
house because the furnace needed electricity.

My other uncle was an electrician, but he was at some other party. He
had to make a special trip to repair the damages, and I still remember
the electrician uncle calling the other uncle an idiot for doing that.
I know the repair involved replacing some burnt wires and maybe more. I
watched him doing the work and saw the charred wires. But the
electrician was able to temporarily get power to most of the house and
get the heat working. (I suppose he just disconnected the burnt wires
from the circuit that overloaded).

Anyhow, this was probably over 40 years ago, but I still remember it
vividly. So, if you have a fuse box, stock up on fuses BEFORE the
holiday, After all, you'll be using a lot more power than normal, since
it's a holiday. More lights, holiday decorations, and very likely an
electric roaster, which are huge energy users.

And of course the stores will be closed......

On 12/27/2014 3:10 PM, wrote:
Anyhow, this was probably over 40 years ago, but I still remember it
vividly. So, if you have a fuse box, stock up on fuses BEFORE the
holiday, After all, you'll be using a lot more power than normal, since
it's a holiday. More lights, holiday decorations, and very likely an
electric roaster, which are huge energy users.

And of course the stores will be closed......


I'm sure each of us has a "stock up on" memory, or three.
Years ago, my sister told of how she and family planned a
trip out of town, on the holiday. They live in a small
town with one grocery store. Of course, the flight was
cancel, and they all came home in the car. She buys
groceries as needed, so they came home to no food and no
stores open. I'll have to ask some day for her to retell
that, I don't remember what they did for food.

At least one year has been colder than planned, ran out
of firewood. And the furnace is all electric.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Jerry:

Anyone with an electrical panel that uses fuses WILL have spare 15 amp fuses on hand. Not only do fuses burn out by themselves occasionally, but it's common to burn out the fuse that supplies the kitchen counter top outlets by plugging in too many appliances at once, like a coffee maker, toaster and microwave oven. I can say that with some degree of certainty because all of my 21 apartments have electrical panels that use screw-in style plug fuses. And, when tenants move out, they often leave behind their spare fuses because the house or apartment they're moving into has breakers instead. Since I often inherit 15 amp fuses from tenants, I can tell you it's very common for people that need plug fuses to have spare ones on hand.

So, your point is well taken, but your uncle was what would commonly be called a "rare exception".

And, I agree that business of putting a penny under the fuse (to effectively eliminate the protection provided by the fuse) was a dangerous thing to do. He could have very well started a fire by doing that, thereby really making it a Christmas to remember.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 12/27/2014 3:10 PM, wrote:
Anyhow, this was probably over 40 years ago, but I still remember it
vividly. So, if you have a fuse box, stock up on fuses BEFORE the
holiday, After all, you'll be using a lot more power than normal, since
it's a holiday. More lights, holiday decorations, and very likely an
electric roaster, which are huge energy users.

And of course the stores will be closed......


I'm sure each of us has a "stock up on" memory, or three.
Years ago, my sister told of how she and family planned a
trip out of town, on the holiday. They live in a small
town with one grocery store. Of course, the flight was
cancel, and they all came home in the car. She buys
groceries as needed, so they came home to no food and no
stores open. I'll have to ask some day for her to retell
that, I don't remember what they did for food.

At least one year has been colder than planned, ran out
of firewood. And the furnace is all electric.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Those mormons roll up the sidewalks at 5pm.
Whatz up with those guys anywho?

On Saturday, December 27, 2014 3:11:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:
If your house still has Fuses, Stock up on Fuses BEFORE the Holiday!

I'm posting this because I have a vivid memory of going to visit my
uncle, when I was around 10 years old. A fuse blew in his panel. He
did not have any spare fuses, and all the stores were closed. So, he
put a penny behind the fuse. I watched him do it, and even at my young
age, I thought that was dangerous. A little while later there was smoke
coming out of the fuse box. so the main was shut off. We spent the next
few hours of that holiday using candles, and it was getting cold in the
house because the furnace needed electricity.

My other uncle was an electrician, but he was at some other party. He
had to make a special trip to repair the damages, and I still remember
the electrician uncle calling the other uncle an idiot for doing that.
I know the repair involved replacing some burnt wires and maybe more. I
watched him doing the work and saw the charred wires. But the
electrician was able to temporarily get power to most of the house and
get the heat working. (I suppose he just disconnected the burnt wires
from the circuit that overloaded).

Anyhow, this was probably over 40 years ago, but I still remember it
vividly. So, if you have a fuse box, stock up on fuses BEFORE the
holiday, After all, you'll be using a lot more power than normal, since
it's a holiday. More lights, holiday decorations, and very likely an
electric roaster, which are huge energy users.

And of course the stores will be closed......

upgrade to breakers, adding safety, convenience, plus homes that still have fuses are near impossible to sell, you cant get homewners insurance on homes that still have breakers

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 08:50:33 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

upgrade to breakers, adding safety, convenience, plus homes that
still have fuses are near impossible to sell, you cant get homewners
insurance on homes that still have breakers

While I agree about switching to breakers, my parents house was sold
after my mother passed on. They still had fuses. The house sold for a
fair price and sold within a week of listing it. She had insurance too.
While they were still alive, I offerred many times to change their
panel, (for free) but they didn't want to pay for the parts. They had
one of the old 60A mains, with 4 fuses and a range pullout. When my
uncle who was an electrician was still alive, he added a breaker panel
next to the fuse box, with 4 extra breakers. That was added when dad
built a garage, and made a room in the attic. Changing that panel would
have been real simple since almost everything from the whole house came
in thru one 3/4" EMT conduit, and another of them for the addon breaker
panel.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:45:31 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 08:50:33 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

upgrade to breakers, adding safety, convenience, plus homes that
still have fuses are near impossible to sell, you cant get homewners
insurance on homes that still have breakers

While I agree about switching to breakers, my parents house was sold
after my mother passed on. They still had fuses. The house sold for a
fair price and sold within a week of listing it. She had insurance too.
While they were still alive, I offerred many times to change their
panel, (for free) but they didn't want to pay for the parts. They had
one of the old 60A mains, with 4 fuses and a range pullout. When my
uncle who was an electrician was still alive, he added a breaker panel
next to the fuse box, with 4 extra breakers. That was added when dad
built a garage, and made a room in the attic. Changing that panel would
have been real simple since almost everything from the whole house came
in thru one 3/4" EMT conduit, and another of them for the addon breaker
panel.

Here in Ontario a fuse panel is no problem as long as it is 100 amps
or more. Can't insure with a 60 amp service - and no K&T wiring.
Aluminum is OK with an inspection certificate.

Our daughter bought a house in Macom, IL, about 15 years ago that still had knob and tube wiring throughout the house. I questioned the realtor about the K&T and was told it was perfectly acceptable. Also checked the insurance company and they had no problem insuring it. Don't know what the siuation would be today. K&T is/was not inherently dangerous if the fuse/circuit breakers were properly sized and if no one messed with the wiring.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:23:39 -0500, wrote:


Here in Ontario a fuse panel is no problem as long as it is 100 amps
or more. Can't insure with a 60 amp service - and no K&T wiring.
Aluminum is OK with an inspection certificate.

You mean that if it's an old home with K&T wiring, the whole place has
to be rewired? That could be a huge expense, and require lots of wall
damage. Although the wire is that old cloth covered stuff, K&T was one
of the safest wiring ever used.

Yet, they allow aluminum???? What a joke! I've seen more burnt
aluminum wires at receptacles and in panels than I've ever seen with
copper. (Mostly older trailer homes), and know of one ne trailer that
started on fire from alum wiring, but luckily the owner was able to put
out the fire and only ended up with a one and a half foot hole in their
paneling around the outlet. He was a neighbor and he asked me to fix
it. I told him I'd fix the paneling, but wont touch that wiring, unless
he wants to replace all the aluminum. That would have pretty much
involved putting wire-mold all over the house, because those trailers
are are too hard to fish wires thru.

He did have an electrician come who replaced just that one line, using
wire-mold, and left the rest of the aluminum.

I'd rather have K&T than aluminum wiring any day!

On 12/28/2014 7:14 PM, wrote:
Our daughter bought a house in Macom, IL, about 15 years ago that still had knob and tube wiring throughout the house. I questioned the realtor about the K&T and was told it was perfectly acceptable. Also checked the insurance company and they had no problem insuring it. Don't know what the siuation would be today. K&T is/was not inherently dangerous if the fuse/circuit breakers were properly sized and if no one messed with the wiring.


A small unused storage room and an attic in part of our building at work
had K&T. Property insurance company made ut take it out about 4 years
ago. They wanted some other work done too but the other stuff was otional.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:14:58 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Our daughter bought a house in Macom, IL, about 15 years ago that
still had knob and tube wiring throughout the house. I questioned the
realtor about the K&T and was told it was perfectly acceptable. Also
checked the insurance company and they had no problem insuring it.
Don't know what the siuation would be today. K&T is/was not inherently
dangerous if the fuse/circuit breakers were properly sized and if no one
messed with the wiring.

---

If you look at how it was made, all the wires went thru porcelin
insulators where they went thru wood or were attached to porcelin
insulators. Even if they did overheat, the porcelin would have to get
real hot before the wood would ignite.

The joints were also soldered, which is about as good as you can get.
Plus the large space between the wires insured they hot and neutral
could not touch and shirt out, if for example a mouse chewed on it.

It's drawbacks were that the old cloth insulation would become brittle
and crack, or worse yet, decay from heat above light fixtures. (Of
course it did last a long time). And the fact that people could put in
the wrong size fuses was it's worst fault. I cant begin to count the
number of 30A fueses I've seen in the old fuse boxes over the years,
connected to 14 gauge wire. (I worked with an electrician for some
years). The Fusestats were an improvement, because they would only
accept the proper size fuse.

The other drawback was when more modern wiring was improperly spliced to
the old K&T. (When I did it, I soldered it and taped it just like the
original).

The final drawback was the lack of grounds. Finding a live metal box in
a wall was not uncommon, if someone touched the screw holding the cover
plate, or they had the common brass plates, one could get jolted. In
one house I lived in, with K&T, I ran a green wire from the panel to the
metal boxes on certain outlets that were easily able to get to, like
those around a kitchen counter.

K&T was harder to work on when the connections had to be untapes and
unsoldered, but for it's time period, it was well made. The wirst
problem of all, was the fact that any idiot could install the wrong size
fuse. That would cause a wire to overheat, and that cloth insulation
embedded with wax and/or tar would start to burn fast. Even though the
porcelin prevented direct contact with the wood, that burning insulation
for example, under an attic floor, would ignite the floor boards. Thus
a house fire.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 18:17:52 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:23:39 -0500, wrote:


Here in Ontario a fuse panel is no problem as long as it is 100 amps
or more. Can't insure with a 60 amp service - and no K&T wiring.
Aluminum is OK with an inspection certificate.

You mean that if it's an old home with K&T wiring, the whole place has
to be rewired? That could be a huge expense, and require lots of wall
damage. Although the wire is that old cloth covered stuff, K&T was one
of the safest wiring ever used.

I fully agree that unmolested K&T wiring is very safe - but show me a
house old enough to have K&T that has not been tampered with. Add to
that the fact the K&T wired homes were not wired to handle today's
electrical loads.

Yet, they allow aluminum???? What a joke!
They allow aluminum WITH an inspection certificate - which requires
all wiring devices are either CoALR or properly pigtailed to copper.
Properly installed second generation aluminum wiring is perfectly safe

I've seen more burnt
aluminum wires at receptacles and in panels than I've ever seen with
copper. (Mostly older trailer homes),
Trailer homes are limited lifespan structures and are usually
constructed to MUCH lower standards than "permanent" homes. Not to
mention they are generally inhabitted by lower income occupants who
are more likely to cut corners and hire unqualified workers to do
repairs and renovations, and are often located in areas where trades
certification and inspection are more lax.

and know of one ne trailer that
started on fire from alum wiring, but luckily the owner was able to put
out the fire and only ended up with a one and a half foot hole in their
paneling around the outlet. He was a neighbor and he asked me to fix
it. I told him I'd fix the paneling, but wont touch that wiring, unless
he wants to replace all the aluminum. That would have pretty much
involved putting wire-mold all over the house, because those trailers
are are too hard to fish wires thru.

He did have an electrician come who replaced just that one line, using
wire-mold, and left the rest of the aluminum.

I'd rather have K&T than aluminum wiring any day!

And I'd rather have a real house than a "redneck bungalow".
I've done enough work on my brother's trailer and know how poorly they
are built and how hard they are to work on. He's moving out of the
trailer into his newly constructed home in the next month or so.

K&T homes can be sold, just like homes with fuses can be sold.

The problem is no homeowners insurance company will risk insuring it. Homeowners companies often send a inspector looking for obvious saftety hazards, like unven sidewalks. Without homeowners coverage you cant get a mortage. People want low cost insurance...

A killer issue with K&T it was never designed to be insulated and who today doesnt want insulation?

cover with nsulation and you have a major fire hazard

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:36:43 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:14:58 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Our daughter bought a house in Macom, IL, about 15 years ago that
still had knob and tube wiring throughout the house. I questioned the
realtor about the K&T and was told it was perfectly acceptable. Also
checked the insurance company and they had no problem insuring it.
Don't know what the siuation would be today. K&T is/was not inherently
dangerous if the fuse/circuit breakers were properly sized and if no one
messed with the wiring.

---

If you look at how it was made, all the wires went thru porcelin
insulators where they went thru wood or were attached to porcelin
insulators. Even if they did overheat, the porcelin would have to get
real hot before the wood would ignite.

The joints were also soldered, which is about as good as you can get.
Plus the large space between the wires insured they hot and neutral
could not touch and shirt out, if for example a mouse chewed on it.

It's drawbacks were that the old cloth insulation would become brittle
and crack, or worse yet, decay from heat above light fixtures. (Of
course it did last a long time). And the fact that people could put in
the wrong size fuses was it's worst fault. I cant begin to count the
number of 30A fueses I've seen in the old fuse boxes over the years,
connected to 14 gauge wire. (I worked with an electrician for some
years). The Fusestats were an improvement, because they would only
accept the proper size fuse.

The other drawback was when more modern wiring was improperly spliced to
the old K&T. (When I did it, I soldered it and taped it just like the
original).

The final drawback was the lack of grounds. Finding a live metal box in
a wall was not uncommon, if someone touched the screw holding the cover
plate, or they had the common brass plates, one could get jolted. In
one house I lived in, with K&T, I ran a green wire from the panel to the
metal boxes on certain outlets that were easily able to get to, like
those around a kitchen counter.

K&T was harder to work on when the connections had to be untapes and
unsoldered, but for it's time period, it was well made. The wirst
problem of all, was the fact that any idiot could install the wrong size
fuse. That would cause a wire to overheat, and that cloth insulation
embedded with wax and/or tar would start to burn fast. Even though the
porcelin prevented direct contact with the wood, that burning insulation
for example, under an attic floor, would ignite the floor boards. Thus
a house fire.


The ability to install the wrong fuse was certainly not restricted to
K&T wiring.
One major problem with K&T was the junctions were made wherever the
junction was required, with no boxes used. Early K&T installations
used surface mounted switches and outlets, with the wired poked
through the plaster and fasted to the switched, with the switches
screwed to the plaster lathe. Some early K&T was also "ring" wired,
with both ends of one wire connected to the fuse, and both ends of the
other wire connected to neutral/ground. This split the load,
effectively almost doubling the capacity of the 14 or 12 guage wiring.
Many were initially also only 30 amp services - later upgraded to 60
amps - with 2 or 4 circuits respectively. Our first house had a 30
amp service (110 volt only) and only a drop-cord light in each room
and 2 outlets.
Many houses wired that way had other outlets added using K&T wiring,
and extra circuits added when upgraded to 6a amp 220.

Then "romex" wiring was tapped in, with the connections soldered
free-style wherever required without junction boxes. This is where
the problems with K&T wiring get serious.

Being an electrician, Dad rewired the entire house with grounded Romex
and a 125 amp service to support the use of some electric heating, as
well as the installation of an oil fired forced air furnace, an
electric range, etc.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:53:09 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

K&T homes can be sold, just like homes with fuses can be sold.

The problem is no homeowners insurance company will risk insuring it. Homeowners companies often send a inspector looking for obvious saftety hazards, like unven sidewalks. Without homeowners coverage you cant get a mortage. People want low cost insurance...

A killer issue with K&T it was never designed to be insulated and who today doesnt want insulation?

cover with nsulation and you have a major fire hazard
That too.

On 12/29/2014 12:02 AM, wrote:
Some early K&T was also "ring" wired,
with both ends of one wire connected to the fuse, and both ends of the
other wire connected to neutral/ground. This split the load,
effectively almost doubling the capacity of the 14 or 12 guage wiring.

I can't imagine what a breaker panel would look like with 30 circuits of ring wired K&T.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 08:44:10 -0500, Fred
wrote:

On 12/29/2014 12:02 AM, wrote:
Some early K&T was also "ring" wired,
with both ends of one wire connected to the fuse, and both ends of the
other wire connected to neutral/ground. This split the load,
effectively almost doubling the capacity of the 14 or 12 guage wiring.

I can't imagine what a breaker panel would look like with 30 circuits of ring wired K&T.
Can you imagine the spiderweb of wiring with 30 rings??