I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

On 08/14/2014 01:07 AM, micky wrote:
I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.


I'm not certain what 12 am means.

11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:18:46 -0400, Jenny wrote:



Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.


I'm not certain what 12 am means.

11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.

Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight. 12
PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24 hour
clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00

On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.


I'm not certain what 12 am means.

11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.

Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight. 12
PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24 hour
clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00

Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =
"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post" (=
"after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is either
noon or midnight, and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and 12:00 PM
is twelve hours after noon. Using "12:00 PM" to mean "noon" is nonsense.
"12 noon," or "12:00 noon," or simply "noon" or "midday" are the only
proper/logical/sensible ways to designate what you are telling us is
"12:00 PM."

Get with the program: 24-hour clock, metric weights and measures, and
dates given as yyyy/mm/dd.

Perce

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 8:35:13 AM UTC-4, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am



Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.



Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am

means.





I'm not certain what 12 am means.



11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.



Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight. 12

PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24 hour

clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00



Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =

"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post" (=

"after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is either

noon or midnight, and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and 12:00 PM

is twelve hours after noon. Using "12:00 PM" to mean "noon" is nonsense.

"12 noon," or "12:00 noon," or simply "noon" or "midday" are the only

proper/logical/sensible ways to designate what you are telling us is

"12:00 PM."



Get with the program: 24-hour clock, metric weights and measures, and

dates given as yyyy/mm/dd.



Perce

I don't see how calling 12PM noon is inconsistent with what you just
posted regarding ante and post. If you start with 12:00XM being high
noon, then clearly 11AM is one hour before that, 1PM is one hour after
high noon. Following that, 12:01 AM is almost 12 hours before noon and
1 minute after midnight and 11:59PM is almost 12 hours after noon and
one minute before midnight. The question is what then to do with the
two singular points. Is noon to be either 12AM or 12PM? Or is it to
be both? Obviously it needs to be settled to avoid mass confusion.
Which even you recognize would result:

"So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is either
noon or midnight, and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and 12:00 PM
is twelve hours after noon."

And it has bee settled, 12PM is called noon and 12AM is midnight.
Ed learned it correctly. Everyone I know understands that 12PM = noon,
12AM equals midnight.

In ,
Percival P. Cassidy typed:
On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.
12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24
hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00

Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =
"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"
(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is
either noon or midnight,

.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and
12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.

But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon
and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:18:36 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

Percival P. Cassidy typed:

On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.

12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24

hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00



Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =

"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"

(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is

either noon or midnight,



.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and

12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.



But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon

and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?

That's an interesting point. So 10AM is really what everyone calls 2AM.
You're right, if that's the system, more than just noon and midnight are
apparently wrong..... Oh my!

I took it more in the sense that we have a system where 12 is high noon,
11 is before it, 1 is after it, and the ante just means that we're talking
about the 11 before 12, not the 11 after it, which would be 11PM. But
if you take what he posted literally, it's as you say.

My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon
and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously
the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is
noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's
11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12
noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which
is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote
would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.

micky wrote in
:

I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.


Or maybe you are just a moron for believing everything you read?

On 8/14/14, 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:18:36 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

Percival P. Cassidy typed:

On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.

12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24

hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00



Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =

"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"

(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is

either noon or midnight,



.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and

12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.



But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon

and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?

That's an interesting point. So 10AM is really what everyone calls 2AM.
You're right, if that's the system, more than just noon and midnight are
apparently wrong..... Oh my!

I took it more in the sense that we have a system where 12 is high noon,
11 is before it, 1 is after it, and the ante just means that we're talking
about the 11 before 12, not the 11 after it, which would be 11PM. But
if you take what he posted literally, it's as you say.

My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon
and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously
the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is
noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's
11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12
noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which
is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote
would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.


Wikipedia covers the issue he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hou...n_and_midnight

where, in part, it says:
"The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language has a usage
note on this topic: "By convention, 12 AM denotes midnight and 12 PM
denotes noon. Because of the potential for confusion, it is advisable
to use 12 noon and 12 midnight."

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:07:08 -0400, micky
wrote:

I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

The last package I received was shipped from the vender via UPS. It
took some time to follow the tracking, as the package was transferred
to the USPS. It arrived locally around midnight at the USPS and
delivery on the morning mail run.

It gets there when it gets there.

micky wrote:
I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

Hi,
I always use military time when it has to be sure thing.
00:00 is midnight, 24:00 as well.

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 9:08:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:18:46 -0400, Jenny wrote:



On 08/14/2014 01:07 AM, micky wrote:

I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never

signed up for monitoring before.



**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win..



The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the

email they sent me said



Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am



Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.



Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am

means.





I'm not certain what 12 am means.



11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.



That is why the military and a lot of companies use 0000-2400 (with

2400 only being a stop time)



In that case 1200 will be noon ... every time.

Unless your work is based on GMT in which case 1200 can be anytime local. My first overseas assignment was St. Lawrence Island, Alaska, right on the date line. Total confusion as the 'work' dates changed at local noon. Could have changed at 11am local or 1pm local - been some 60 years since I was there.

Harry K

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:24:37 -0400, wrote:

I always use military time when it has to be sure thing.
00:00 is midnight, 24:00 as well.

Military time does not use the colon. That eliminates the confusion of
what you are looking at.
If you see 0900 (always 4 digits) that is 9 AM. 1200 is noon.

Correct. Folks do get confused with military time. All you have to
do is add or subtract 12 from the first two digits.

2315 hours is 11:15 PM.

wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 09:50:18 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

micky wrote:
I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

Hi,
I always use military time when it has to be sure thing.
00:00 is midnight, 24:00 as well.

Military time does not use the colon. That eliminates the confusion of
what you are looking at.
If you see 0900 (always 4 digits) that is 9 AM. 1200 is noon.

Hi,
Regardless, I am at home using the format. Spent number of years
overseas every where working for DOD, worldwide comm. system.
Long range HF radio, satellite, marine cables, short range VHF/UHF/MW
networks, etc. One of them working with 8th RRFS in 'Nam during the war.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:18:36 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

In ,
Percival P. Cassidy typed:
On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.
12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24
hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00

Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =
"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"
(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is
either noon or midnight,

.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and
12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.

But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon
and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?

You're right, and this means clocks would have to run backwards half the
day and clockwise the other half. It wouldn't be hard to build clocks
like that, even mechanical ones. Electronic would probably be easier.
But we'll have to recycle all the existing clocks.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:15:15 -0400, Retired wrote:

On 8/14/14, 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:18:36 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

Percival P. Cassidy typed:

On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.

12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24

hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00



Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =

"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"

(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is

either noon or midnight,



.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and

12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.



But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon

and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?

That's an interesting point. So 10AM is really what everyone calls 2AM.
You're right, if that's the system, more than just noon and midnight are
apparently wrong..... Oh my!

I took it more in the sense that we have a system where 12 is high noon,
11 is before it, 1 is after it, and the ante just means that we're talking
about the 11 before 12, not the 11 after it, which would be 11PM. But
if you take what he posted literally, it's as you say.

My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon
and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously
the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is
noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's
11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12
noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which
is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote
would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.


Wikipedia covers the issue he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hou...n_and_midnight

where, in part, it says:
"The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language has a usage
note on this topic: "By convention, 12 AM denotes midnight and 12 PM
denotes noon. Because of the potential for confusion, it is advisable
to use 12 noon and 12 midnight."

I've read before that this is a convention, that is, that it could have
worked either way but they arbitrarily chose this way.

But I don't think so

1:00 Post Meridiem is one hour after the middle of the day, and 12;01PM
is one minute after the noon.

So what about 12:00PM. Well that only occurs for an instant, a pico
second later, it's no longer noon. It is after noon. The entire
minute between 12:00PM and 12:01PM is after noon, afternoon, except for
the moment that is noon. Less than a pico-second. A time with no
length. Not a time period, not a period, just a time. That is noon.
Everything after that is PM.

So not a convention, but following clearly from the rest of the AM/PM
time system.

On 8/14/2014 12:58 PM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:15:15 -0400, Retired wrote:

On 8/14/14, 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:18:36 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,

Percival P. Cassidy typed:

On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.

12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24

hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00



Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =

"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"

(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is

either noon or midnight,



.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and

12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.



But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon

and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?

That's an interesting point. So 10AM is really what everyone calls 2AM.
You're right, if that's the system, more than just noon and midnight are
apparently wrong..... Oh my!

I took it more in the sense that we have a system where 12 is high noon,
11 is before it, 1 is after it, and the ante just means that we're talking
about the 11 before 12, not the 11 after it, which would be 11PM. But
if you take what he posted literally, it's as you say.

My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon
and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously
the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is
noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's
11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12
noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which
is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote
would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.


Wikipedia covers the issue he
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hou...n_and_midnight

where, in part, it says:
"The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language has a usage
note on this topic: "By convention, 12 AM denotes midnight and 12 PM
denotes noon. Because of the potential for confusion, it is advisable
to use 12 noon and 12 midnight."

I've read before that this is a convention, that is, that it could have
worked either way but they arbitrarily chose this way.

But I don't think so

1:00 Post Meridiem is one hour after the middle of the day, and 12;01PM
is one minute after the noon.

So what about 12:00PM. Well that only occurs for an instant, a pico
second later, it's no longer noon. It is after noon. The entire
minute between 12:00PM and 12:01PM is after noon, afternoon, except for
the moment that is noon. Less than a pico-second. A time with no
length. Not a time period, not a period, just a time. That is noon.
Everything after that is PM.

So not a convention, but following clearly from the rest of the AM/PM
time system.


When I was a kid, there were no digital clocks or watches, so we learned
correctly that there is no such thing as 12:00AM or 12:00PM, only
midnight or noon. When digital timepieces came along, it was overly
complicated to design them to display "noon" or "midnight" for one
minute apiece each day, so now we have 12:00AM and 12:00PM. It seems
obvious to me that the convention of 12:00AM being midnight and 12:00PM
being noon is simply the result of how a digital clock works.

On 08/14/2014 05:00 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

[snip]

11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.

Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight. 12
PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24 hour
clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00


When I was setting up my web page, I had to learn a lot about times
(considering that I had to make it work from anywhere in the world).
There's plenty of room for simplification. 24 hour time is one way.
Also, get rid of Damn Stupid Time. It really complicates things, like
when some days have only 23 hours, and some have 25. DST is supposed to
change at 2AM some day. How do you make the computer say 2AM, when there
IS NO 2AM that day (it's 3AM, on this 23-hour day)?


BTW, the average year has 365 + 1/4 - 1/100 + 1/400 (365.2425) days in
it. The average month has 30.436875 days.

BTW2, there is only one place where DST is observed, but the offset is
not 1 hour. See
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...rd-howe-island

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Any slogan simple enough to fit in a .sig is too simple to do any
good."

On 08/14/2014 09:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon
and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously
the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is
noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's
11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12
noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which
is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote
would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.


Also, 12PM is used for a specific time, but is also a WHOLE HOUR. That's
3600 seconds, 3599 of which are AFTER noon (and are obviously PM), so
that's another reason it makes sense to call noon 12 PM.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Any slogan simple enough to fit in a .sig is too simple to do any
good."

On 08/14/2014 07:35 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

[snip]

Get with the program: 24-hour clock, metric weights and measures, and
dates given as yyyy/mm/dd.

Yes to all of those.

BTW, when I'm writing dates I prefer to use that form (big-endian),
rather than the strange middle-endian one.

Perce


--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Any slogan simple enough to fit in a .sig is too simple to do any
good."

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:18:46 -0400, Jenny wrote:



Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.


I'm not certain what 12 am means.

11:59 am or 12:01 pm would be better choices.

Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight. 12
PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24 hour
clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00
--
I know what 0000 and 2400 is.
What is your 00:00 and 24:00?

On 08/14/2014 10:50 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

[snip]

Hi,
I always use military time when it has to be sure thing.
00:00 is midnight, 24:00 as well.

24:00 should be 00:00 tomorrow.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Any slogan simple enough to fit in a .sig is too simple to do any
good."

On 08/14/2014 11:08 AM, wrote:

[snip]


In that case 1200 will be noon ... every time.


Yes, and how about 3600?

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:28:46 -0500, sam E
wrote:

On 08/14/2014 11:08 AM, wrote:

[snip]


In that case 1200 will be noon ... every time.


Yes, and how about 3600?

My microwave can handle that. I can put in 1:30 or 90 and it works the
same. I haven't tried 3600 yet, but it probably works too.

On 08/14/2014 11:58 AM, micky wrote:

[snip]

So not a convention, but following clearly from the rest of the AM/PM
time system.


It would be strange to have 12:00:00 AM followed (in 1 second) by
12:00:01 PM. People do do strange things, but usually not that one.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Any slogan simple enough to fit in a .sig is too simple to do any
good."

"Bill Ghrist" wrote in message
...

When I was a kid, there were no digital clocks or watches, so we learned
correctly that there is no such thing as 12:00AM or 12:00PM, only midnight
or noon. When digital timepieces came along, it was overly complicated to
design them to display "noon" or "midnight" for one minute apiece each
day, so now we have 12:00AM and 12:00PM. It seems obvious to me that the
convention of 12:00AM being midnight and 12:00PM being noon is simply the
result of how a digital clock works.



I also grew up when there were no digital clocks for the most part. There
were some but they had mechanical numbers that clicked off. No digital
watches that I know of in the mid 1950's when I learned to tell time.

I always refer to noon and not 12 PM, but would call it 12:01 PM. Same as
for AM being in the dark part of the night and midnight.

While not the offical calling, we were tought to think of the AM as being At
Morning and PM being Past Morning.


Not sure if there is an offical way or not to do it.

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
BTW2, there is only one place where DST is observed, but the offset is
not 1 hour. See
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...rd-howe-island


I didn't even know anywhere but the US had the DST. Interisting that they
would not go to a whole hour when they switch.

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 3:31:25 PM UTC-4, Bill Ghrist wrote:
On 8/14/2014 12:58 PM, micky wrote:

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:15:15 -0400, Retired wrote:



On 8/14/14, 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 10:18:36 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:

In ,



Percival P. Cassidy typed:



On 08/14/14 06:00 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:







Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight.



12 PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24



hour clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00







Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =



"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post"



(= "after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is



either noon or midnight,







.....and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and



12:00 PM is twelve hours after noon.







But, if I use that reasoning, wouldn't 10:00 AM mean 10 hours before noon



and 11:00 AM would mean eleven hours before noon?



That's an interesting point. So 10AM is really what everyone calls 2AM.

You're right, if that's the system, more than just noon and midnight are

apparently wrong..... Oh my!



I took it more in the sense that we have a system where 12 is high noon,

11 is before it, 1 is after it, and the ante just means that we're talking

about the 11 before 12, not the 11 after it, which would be 11PM. But

if you take what he posted literally, it's as you say.



My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon

and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously

the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is

noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's

11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12

noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which

is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote

would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.





Wikipedia covers the issue he

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hou...n_and_midnight



where, in part, it says:

"The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language has a usage

note on this topic: "By convention, 12 AM denotes midnight and 12 PM

denotes noon. Because of the potential for confusion, it is advisable

to use 12 noon and 12 midnight."



I've read before that this is a convention, that is, that it could have

worked either way but they arbitrarily chose this way.



But I don't think so



1:00 Post Meridiem is one hour after the middle of the day, and 12;01PM

is one minute after the noon.



So what about 12:00PM. Well that only occurs for an instant, a pico

second later, it's no longer noon. It is after noon. The entire

minute between 12:00PM and 12:01PM is after noon, afternoon, except for

the moment that is noon. Less than a pico-second. A time with no

length. Not a time period, not a period, just a time. That is noon.

Everything after that is PM.



So not a convention, but following clearly from the rest of the AM/PM

time system.





When I was a kid, there were no digital clocks or watches, so we learned

correctly that there is no such thing as 12:00AM or 12:00PM, only

midnight or noon. When digital timepieces came along, it was overly

complicated to design them to display "noon" or "midnight" for one

minute apiece each day, so now we have 12:00AM and 12:00PM. It seems

obvious to me that the convention of 12:00AM being midnight and 12:00PM

being noon is simply the result of how a digital clock works.

An interesting re-invention of history.
I've existed a lot longer than the digital watch and like Ed, I knew as
a kid that 12AM was midnight, 12PM was noon. It's hard to imagine that
with the 12 hour clock system, that dates back many centuries, the issue
of whether noon is 12PM or 12AM or neither, never came up and it took the
digial watch for that to happen. I suspect 12PM being noon was arrived
at shortly after the concept went into use. It certainly was what I grew
up knowing in the 60s, before digital watches.

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 4:19:11 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 08/14/2014 09:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:



[snip]



My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon

and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously

the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is

noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's

11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12

noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which

is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote

would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.





Also, 12PM is used for a specific time, but is also a WHOLE HOUR. That's

3600 seconds, 3599 of which are AFTER noon (and are obviously PM), so

that's another reason it makes sense to call noon 12 PM.



That's a very good point. The rest of that entire 12:xx hour is in the PM
period. Makes a lot more sense to associate the 12:00 instant to it, than
to the 11AM hour. And clearly convention has always been for 12AM to
refer to midnight, 12PM to noon, in my lifetime. With or without digital
watches.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:58:42 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
BTW2, there is only one place where DST is observed, but the offset is
not 1 hour. See
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...rd-howe-island


I didn't even know anywhere but the US had the DST.

Then you probably didn't hear about this.

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html
Living on Zionist Time
1999 Darwin Awards Winner
Confirmed True by Darwin

5 September 1999, Jerusalem In most parts of the world, the switch
away from Daylight Saving Time proceeds smoothly. But the time change
raised havoc with Palestinian terrorists this year.

Israel insisted on a premature switch from Daylight Savings Time to
Standard Time to accommodate a week of pre-sunrise prayers. Palestinians
refused to live on "Zionist Time." Two weeks of scheduling havoc ensued.
Nobody knew the "correct" time.

At precisely 5:30pm on Sunday, two coordinated car bombs exploded in
different cities, killing three terrorists who were transporting the
bombs. It was initially believed that the devices had been detonated
prematurely by klutzy amateurs. A closer look revealed the truth behind
the explosions.

The bombs had been prepared in a Palestine-controlled area, and set to
detonate on Daylight Saving Time. But the confused drivers had already
switched to Standard Time. When they picked up the bombs, they neglected
to ask whose watch was used to set the timing mechanism. As a result,
the cars were still en-route when the explosives detonated, delivering
the terrorists to their untimely demises.


Interisting that they
would not go to a whole hour when they switch.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:58:42 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


I didn't even know anywhere but the US had the DST.

Then you probably didn't hear about this.

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html
Living on Zionist Time
1999 Darwin Awards Winner
Confirmed True by Darwin

5 September 1999, Jerusalem In most parts of the world, the switch
away from Daylight Saving Time proceeds smoothly. But the time change
raised havoc with Palestinian terrorists this year.

Israel insisted on a premature switch from Daylight Savings Time to
Standard Time to accommodate a week of pre-sunrise prayers. Palestinians
refused to live on "Zionist Time." Two weeks of scheduling havoc ensued.
Nobody knew the "correct" time.

At precisely 5:30pm on Sunday, two coordinated car bombs exploded in
different cities, killing three terrorists who were transporting the
bombs. It was initially believed that the devices had been detonated
prematurely by klutzy amateurs. A closer look revealed the truth behind
the explosions.

The bombs had been prepared in a Palestine-controlled area, and set to
detonate on Daylight Saving Time. But the confused drivers had already
switched to Standard Time. When they picked up the bombs, they neglected
to ask whose watch was used to set the timing mechanism. As a result,
the cars were still en-route when the explosives detonated, delivering
the terrorists to their untimely demises.


Didn't hear about that. Did hear about an airplane running out of fuel
because they took on fuel measured by the metric system instead of the
English system (could have been the other way).

Also think it was not one but two of the Mars landers crashed because
someone used feet per second and another calculated meters per second.
It landed about 3 times the speed it was designed for.

On 08/14/14 07:16 pm, Guv Bob wrote:

I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

If it were shipped by post office, it wouldn't really matter what time they said it would arrive.

A few months back I ordered a book from the UK on a Saturday. Estimated
delivery was 3 to 6 weeks by surface mail. It was delivered in the USA
on the following Saturday.

The "free shipping" from NewEgg and other online vendors often involves
pickup by UPS, FedEx or DHL and transfer to the USPS for delivery. IOW,
USPS can deliver things more cheaply than any of those other services.
Just once a small package got lost between UPS and USPS (NewEgg shipped
a replacement), but other than that I have no complaints.

Perce

On 08/14/14 04:58 pm, Ralph Mowery wrote:

BTW2, there is only one place where DST is observed, but the offset is
not 1 hour. See
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...rd-howe-island


I didn't even know anywhere but the US had the DST. Interisting that they
would not go to a whole hour when they switch.

In the UK DST is called "British Summer Time" (BST). During WW2 and for
many years after, there was "British Double Summer Time": *two* hours of
Daylight Saving Time for a short period each year.

Perce

"micky" wrote in message ...
I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

If it were shipped by post office, it wouldn't really matter what time they said it would arrive.

"Mark Lloyd"
wrote in message On 08/14/2014 07:35 AM,
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

[snip]

Get with the program: 24-hour clock, metric
weights and measures, and
dates given as yyyy/mm/dd.

Yes to all of those.

BTW, when I'm writing dates I prefer to use that
form (big-endian), rather than the strange
middle-endian one.

Perce


--
Mark Lloyd

Nah. I prefer date format like this: 08jun14 for
example.
If this was written 08/06/14 is it the eigth of
june or
august sixth?

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An interesting re-invention of history.
I've existed a lot longer than the digital watch and like Ed, I knew as
a kid that 12AM was midnight, 12PM was noon.

At age 50, I retired, I stopped wearing a watch. I'm not interested in
what time of day it is. Basically I do what my body requires. Eat
sleep and poop. All natural. Not on a time frame schedule. My dog is
much the same. He comes to me for his needs at daylight or through the
day.

Only my lovely bride wants clocks in our house. I hate it

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message ...
On 08/14/14 07:16 pm, Guv Bob wrote:

I ordered something online and I love watching tracking** but I've never
signed up for monitoring before.

**Watching tracking is like watching a horse race, except I always win.

The Fedex tracking page said my package would come on Friday but the
email they sent me said

Estimated delivery 8/15/2014 12:00 am

Apparenty they will deliver it at midnight. That is devotion.

Either that or a big international company doesn't know what 12 am
means.

If it were shipped by post office, it wouldn't really matter what time they said it would arrive.

A few months back I ordered a book from the UK on a Saturday. Estimated
delivery was 3 to 6 weeks by surface mail. It was delivered in the USA
on the following Saturday.

The "free shipping" from NewEgg and other online vendors often involves
pickup by UPS, FedEx or DHL and transfer to the USPS for delivery. IOW,
USPS can deliver things more cheaply than any of those other services.
Just once a small package got lost between UPS and USPS (NewEgg shipped
a replacement), but other than that I have no complaints.

Perce

USPS is fine for the big junk mailers and 1st class individual pieces. They deliver those right on time. Little mailers like my group (1500 pieces) gets no respect, no respect I tell you. Delivery within 75 mile radius is anywhere from 4 to 12 days for standard mail. First class is supposed to be 1-2 days, but if we mail 1st class with imprint instead of 1st class stamps, it's a week.

On 8/14/2014 8:35 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:


Most of us learned that in 5th grade or before. 12 AM is midnight. 12
PM is noon. There would be less confusion in the world with a 24 hour
clock. We all know that 00:00 is 24:00

Then you learned wrong: the "M" in "AM" and "PM" is "meridiem" =
"midday" = "noon"; the "A" and "P" are "ante" (= "before") and "post" (=
"after"), respectively. So 12:00 (using the 12-hour clock) is either
noon or midnight, and 12:00 AM is twelve hours before noon and 12:00 PM
is twelve hours after noon. Using "12:00 PM" to mean "noon" is nonsense.
"12 noon," or "12:00 noon," or simply "noon" or "midday" are the only
proper/logical/sensible ways to designate what you are telling us is
"12:00 PM."

Get with the program: 24-hour clock, metric weights and measures, and
dates given as yyyy/mm/dd.

Perce

Good luck with your effort to educate 99% of the world. Right or
wrong, common usage still puts noon at 12:00 PM

I also see many metric countries dating dd/mm/yyyy. I deal mostly with
Canada, Italy, Austria, China.

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:44:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 4:19:11 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 08/14/2014 09:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:



[snip]



My view of the whole thing is that with the ante/post thing, 12 noon

and 12 midnight could be either or both. To avoid confusion, obviously

the world has settled on the convention that 12AM is midnight, 12PM is

noon. And it makes sense to me. As the day is progressing, it's

11AM, then noon. What would it make more logical sense to associate 12

noon with? The AM period which has just ended? Or the PM period, which

is just beginning? We're usually looking ahead, not back, so my vote

would be for noon to be 12PM. Seems like 99% of the world agrees.





Also, 12PM is used for a specific time, but is also a WHOLE HOUR. That's

3600 seconds, 3599 of which are AFTER noon (and are obviously PM), so

that's another reason it makes sense to call noon 12 PM.



That's a very good point. The rest of that entire 12:xx hour is in the PM
period.

And the rest of the 12:00 minute. And the rest of the 12:00:00 second.
And the rest of the 12:00:00.0 tenth of a second, and so on.

Everything is post noon except the very instant of noon.

Makes a lot more sense to associate the 12:00 instant to it, than
to the 11AM hour. And clearly convention has always been for 12AM to
refer to midnight, 12PM to noon, in my lifetime. With or without digital
watches.

On 08/14/2014 06:27 PM, Phil Kangas wrote:

[snip]

Nah. I prefer date format like this: 08jun14 for
example.
If this was written 08/06/14 is it the eigth of
june or
august sixth?


Order of decreasing significance (big-endian), month written with
letters (to avoid ambiguity). That's good, but is it June 14, 2008? It'd
be even better with 4 digits for the year.

BTW, It's also 1408110819 (Unix clock).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Never judge a man till you have walked a mile in his shoes, 'cuz by
then, he's a mile away, you've got his shoes, and you can say whatever
the hell you want to."