For the second time in several years, the 40 A double breaker for my
kitchen oven tripped. Oven didn't work when I turned it on. Voltmater said
no voltasge at circuit breaker. Reset breaker. Oven seems to work ok.

Now what? See if it trips again? Replace breaker (looks hard and dangerous
for a very old man to do)? Other?

TIA


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

KenK wrote:
For the second time in several years, the 40 A double breaker for my
kitchen oven tripped. Oven didn't work when I turned it on. Voltmater said
no voltasge at circuit breaker. Reset breaker. Oven seems to work ok.

Now what? See if it trips again? Replace breaker (looks hard and dangerous
for a very old man to do)? Other?

TIA


Hi,
I'd suspect one of heating element. Breaker is doing it's job.

On 08/09/2014 11:18 AM, KenK wrote:
For the second time in several years, the 40 A double breaker for my
kitchen oven tripped. Oven didn't work when I turned it on. Voltmater said
no voltasge at circuit breaker. Reset breaker. Oven seems to work ok.

Now what? See if it trips again? Replace breaker (looks hard and dangerous
for a very old man to do)? Other?

It's not particularly tough job; just turn the main breaker in the panel
off to remove power from all; only the feed terminals (typically at the
very top of the panel) will have any power then.

Check if the breaker feels warm; it wouldn't hurt even if were to not
replace at this time to check the terminals at the breaker are tight and
not showing any signs of corrosion or overheating.

--

On 8/9/2014 12:18 PM, KenK wrote:
For the second time in several years, the 40 A double breaker for my
kitchen oven tripped. Oven didn't work when I turned it on. Voltmater said
no voltasge at circuit breaker. Reset breaker. Oven seems to work ok.

Now what? See if it trips again? Replace breaker (looks hard and dangerous
for a very old man to do)? Other?

TIA


I'd leave it go, till the next trip. Note what's
doing at the moment it trips. Did it trip while
you turned the oven on?

If it trips when turn oven or breaker on, might
be a shorted element.

Some further diagnostic is needed, here.

Different panels, different level of difficulty
to replace breakers.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/9/2014 1:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 8/9/2014 12:18 PM, KenK wrote:
For the second time in several years, the 40 A double breaker for my
kitchen oven tripped. Oven didn't work when I turned it on. Voltmater
said
no voltasge at circuit breaker. Reset breaker. Oven seems to work ok.

Now what? See if it trips again? Replace breaker (looks hard and
dangerous
for a very old man to do)? Other?

TIA


I'd leave it go, till the next trip. Note what's
doing at the moment it trips. Did it trip while
you turned the oven on?

If it trips when turn oven or breaker//////
BURNER on, might
be a shorted element.

Some further diagnostic is needed, here.

Different panels, different level of difficulty
to replace breakers.

..

Stormin Mormon wrote in newsIsFv.205976
:

I'd leave it go, till the next trip. Note what's
doing at the moment it trips. Did it trip while
you turned the oven on?


The oven (only thing on that breaker, no range) didn't work when turned on.
Either breaker tripped at that moment or sometime before. I seldom use the
oven - maybe every few weeks. Mostly use gas range or MW.


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

On 8/9/2014 2:10 PM, KenK wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote in newsIsFv.205976
:

I'd leave it go, till the next trip. Note what's
doing at the moment it trips. Did it trip while
you turned the oven on?


The oven (only thing on that breaker, no range) didn't work when turned on.
Either breaker tripped at that moment or sometime before. I seldom use the
oven - maybe every few weeks. Mostly use gas range or MW.

Here's your chance to buy a couple little walkie
talkies, and play Star Trek.

Ken: I need full power!
Wife: I'm resettin er now, cap'n.
Ken: How's it looking, there, Engineer:
Wife: Dina how long I can hold it! It just
tripped, cap'n.
Ken: She's just not gonna cook, you think?
Wife: She keeps cutting off on ye, cap'n.
I think I need to repair it before we can
disembark on our mission.
Ken: Engineer, set course for Home Depot
and bring the old breaker with you to compare.
Wife: Aye, cap'n, you'd best get down to
Engineering deck, I am not touching that
consounded barnes. Nae, laddy.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"KenK" wrote in message

For the second time in several years, the 40 A double breaker for my
kitchen oven tripped. Oven didn't work when I turned it on. Voltmater
said
no voltasge at circuit breaker. Reset breaker. Oven seems to work ok.

Now what? See if it trips again? Replace breaker (looks hard and
dangerous
for a very old man to do)? Other?

TIA

Take a good look at the oven heating element. Use your fingers to feel,
too. You are looking for any sign of a crack or break or depression.

When oven heating elements "go", they go spectacularly...lots of sparks
and smoke. A bit like an incendiary bomb. Actually, more like an arc
welder; essentially, that is what happens. Forunately, they are very easy
to replace and - if you look - relatively inexpensive, $20 or so.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

If it wuz me, I would:

1. Trip the stove breaker off. (This will be a double breaker.)

2. Pull the oven away from the wall and remove the stove's back cover.

3. Look at the wires going to both the bake element and the broil element and see if there's any signs that they're starting to burn at the connection terminals. Follow these wires to the console switches and see if there's any sign of the wires burning off at those terminals.

4. If you don't see anything odd at the bake and broil element wires and connection terminals, replace the double breaker to the stove.

On 8/10/2014 10:12 AM, nestork wrote:




4. If you don't see anything odd at the bake and broil element wires and
connection terminals, replace the double breaker to the stove.

Agreed with your first three items, but not so sure about this. He said
it was years since the breaker tripped. Could be his incoming power had
a big temporary voltage drop and it caused the amps to come up tripping
the breaker. Or maybe he turned the oven on just as the AV compressor
started taking a big load. Or some other odd ball happening.

If it tripped frequently for unknown causes, then yes, I'd replace the
breaker.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/10/2014 10:12 AM, nestork wrote:




4. If you don't see anything odd at the bake and broil element wires and
connection terminals, replace the double breaker to the stove.

Agreed with your first three items, but not so sure about this. He said
it was years since the breaker tripped. Could be his incoming power had
a big temporary voltage drop and it caused the amps to come up tripping
the breaker. Or maybe he turned the oven on just as the AV compressor
started taking a big load. Or some other odd ball happening.

If it tripped frequently for unknown causes, then yes, I'd replace the
breaker.
Hi,
It is like blaming a thermostat and replacing it when furnace or a/c
unit does not work well,LOL!

On 08/10/2014 9:29 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/10/2014 10:12 AM, nestork wrote:




4. If you don't see anything odd at the bake and broil element wires and
connection terminals, replace the double breaker to the stove.

Agreed with your first three items, but not so sure about this. He said
it was years since the breaker tripped. Could be his incoming power had
a big temporary voltage drop and it caused the amps to come up tripping
the breaker. Or maybe he turned the oven on just as the AV compressor
started taking a big load. Or some other odd ball happening.

If it tripped frequently for unknown causes, then yes, I'd replace the
breaker.

For an almost 80-yo, may be quite a lot to ask, but not terrible advice,
no...

I was thinking of a thermally-sensitive breaker (had one on the A/C
disconnect just a year or so ago) but would note also had a partial
failure of a heating element just last year -- first ever experienced of
just losing one side in an element instead of the (often spectacular)
complete failure. Didn't trip the breaker so didn't think of it in OPs
case initially. Symptom was only that oven wouldn't reach full temp if
thermostat 275 or so...so if OPs "normal" operation includes reaching
temp for the pizza, it's not the problem. Just mentioned in passing as
it was somewhat unusual (ime, anyway).

--

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 10:29:55 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/10/2014 10:12 AM, nestork wrote:









4. If you don't see anything odd at the bake and broil element wires and

connection terminals, replace the double breaker to the stove.



Agreed with your first three items, but not so sure about this. He said

it was years since the breaker tripped. Could be his incoming power had

a big temporary voltage drop and it caused the amps to come up tripping

the breaker.

That would make sense if it were a motor or similar load. But an oven
is a resistance load. If the voltage goes down, the amps will too.



Or maybe he turned the oven on just as the AV compressor

started taking a big load. Or some other odd ball happening.



Think you mean AC compressor. Per the above, I don't see a mechanism
whereby that results in a higher current to the oven. I can see it
lowering the current....




If it tripped frequently for unknown causes, then yes, I'd replace the

breaker.

Shouldn't lower the current either.

Every electrical panel is rated at a certain amperage, and the electrical panel should be able to handle any amount of current right up to the panels rated capacity.

As long as the combined starting current to the AC compressor and the current to the stove bake and broil elements doesn't exceed the panels rated amperage, it should be able to supply both appliances with the amount of current they draw.

PS: I would also look for burnt wires going to the surface elements on the stove. It's easy to check the sockets that surface elements push into. Just unplug the range (or trip the breakers to it). Pull the surface elements out and remove the drip pans under them. The surface element sockets are held in with a screw. Take out that screw and you can inspect the socket for burnt or otherwise damaged wiring.

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 4:08:46 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
trader_4;3270114 Wrote:



Think you mean AC compressor. Per the above, I don't see a mechanism

whereby that results in a higher current to the oven. I can see it

lowering the current....





Of course the sudden turn on of an AC unit can lower the current in
an oven. The power grid can't instantly react and supply more amps,
so there can be brief, slight drop in voltage. In homes you can sometimes see
it happen with lights briefly dimming when a heavy load cuts in,
particularly in older homes. Even in newer homes, with a heftier
service, the effect is still there. Voltage drops by evem a volt
and the current to the oven drops. Not by a lot, but the point is,
it can go down, but not up.





Shouldn't lower the current either.



Unless you believe a power system into a house is an ideal
Thevenin source or similar, it will absolutely happen.




Every electrical panel is rated at a certain amperage, and the

electrical panel should be able to handle any amount of current right up

to the panels rated capacity.



Handle doesn't mean there is absolutely no effect, even a very brief one,
from large loads kicking in. And I'd be surprised if you fully loaded
that service if the voltage was exactly the same even steadystate as it
is when the service only had a 1 amp load on it. Wire isn't a perfect
conductor, there is resistance. There is some tiny resistance at connections,
etc too. Big amps times even a small resistance and you can easily get
voltage drop, per ohms law.




As long as the combined starting current to the AC compressor and the

current to the stove bake and broil elements doesn't exceed the panels

rated amperage, it should be able to supply both appliances with the

amount of current they draw.



Sure it can supply it. But by what law of physics or man does that
equate to the voltage not dipping, by even 1 volt?




PS: I would also look for burnt wires going to the surface elements on

the stove.

PS: It's an oven, not a stove. The range is gas.

To be truthful, I have never once noticed the ceiling light in my kitchen dim when I turned on my oven.
My kitchen ceiling light has two 60 watt bulbs.
My oven has a 6000 watt bake element.
I'm thinking I shoulda seen them lights dim, no?

I have seen the lights in my apartment dim on occasion, and I understand that the power delivered by my electric utility can vary substantially in voltage, but I have never seen any co-relation between such light dimmings and the operation of large electric loads, like my oven bake element. Maybe I'm just not observant enough.

nestork wrote:

trader_4;3270232 Wrote:

In homes you can sometimes see
it happen with lights briefly dimming when a heavy load cuts in,
particularly in older homes. Even in newer homes, with a heftier
service, the effect is still there.


Do you mean like in that movie "The Green Mile" starring Tom Hanks...
the lights dimming in the cell block when they were electrocuting Dale?

To be truthful, I have never once noticed the ceiling light in my
kitchen dim when I turned on my oven. My kitchen light has two 60 watt
bulbs. My oven has a 6000 watt bake element. I'm thinking I shoulda
seen them lights dim, no?

I have seen the lights in my apartment dim on occasion, and I understand
that the power delivered by my electric utility can vary substantially
in voltage, but I have never seen any co-relation between such light
dimmings and the operation of large electric loads, like my oven bake
element. Maybe I'm just not observant enough.

Hi,
Then you should be more observant.
Lights dimming when heavier appliances turn on in the house is
common thing. When inductive load turns on in-rush current is higher
than rated for sure.

That's interesting. My lights dim slightly when the heat pump compressor kicks on, but not at all when the oven cycles.

Here, lemme try again. This time I'll be more careful to notice any change in the lighting.

...

Nope, nothing.

What am I doing wrong here? Maybe there's something wrong with my wiring?

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 10:55:17 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
trader_4;3270232 Wrote:



In homes you can sometimes see

it happen with lights briefly dimming when a heavy load cuts in,

particularly in older homes. Even in newer homes, with a heftier

service, the effect is still there.





Do you mean like in that movie "The Green Mile" starring Tom Hanks...

the lights dimming in the cell block when they were electrocuting Dale?



To be truthful, I have never once noticed the ceiling light in my

kitchen dim when I turned on my oven. My kitchen light has two 60 watt

bulbs. My oven has a 6000 watt bake element. I'm thinking I shoulda

seen them lights dim, no?



Just because it doesn't occur to the extent that you can actually see it
in all cases, doesn't change how ohms law works. If a large load causes
the voltage to drop from 120V to 119V, I doubt you'd notice it, but the
effect is still there. And a central AC turning on is a huge load for
a second or so, as it starts up. Mine has a 50A breaker, while it's
normal operating current once it gets going is probably half that. I
can't see the lights dim here either, with a 200A service. But I have seen
it happen in plenty of older homes, with smaller services.

TimR wrote:
That's interesting. My lights dim slightly when the heat pump compressor kicks on, but not at all when the oven cycles.

Hi.
Motor is inductive load. Heating element inductance is negligible, it is
resistive load.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
Just because it doesn't occur to the extent that you can actually see it
in all cases, doesn't change how ohms law works. If a large load causes
the voltage to drop from 120V to 119V, I doubt you'd notice it, but the
effect is still there. And a central AC turning on is a huge load for
a second or so, as it starts up. Mine has a 50A breaker, while it's
normal operating current once it gets going is probably half that. I
can't see the lights dim here either, with a 200A service. But I have
seen
it happen in plenty of older homes, with smaller services.

Just like when I was growing up almost every time the refrigerator would
start up, the TV would act up for a few seconds way back in the 1950s and
eairly 60s.

I lived in a 2 bed room duplex apartment at one time and the main fuse box
had 2 30 amp screw in fuses for it. I think it was built before WW2.

I don't seem to see the lights dim in my house when the heat pump cycles,
but I am sure there is some voltage drop, just not enought to notice. There
is atleast 200 feet of cable from the transformer to the house.

I did put in a digital voltmeter from China a couple of days ago to monitor
the the line voltage. It has gone from 119 to 123 during the times I have
looked at it. I don't see how they can ship it here for a total of less
than $ 4.00. It is even right on with my Fluke multimeter. I am not sure
how long it takes for it to react to a voltage change, but probably less
than 1 second. Have not monitored it when the HP comes on to see if it will
show a voltage drop.
I also got in some digital voltmeters that are just the display mounted on
the circuit boad for measuring low DC voltages. Four of them was less than
$ 6.00 shipped in. They display to the tenth of a volt and all 4 of them
were showing the same at 24 volts just as my Fluke meter was showing.

On Monday, August 11, 2014 11:01:03 AM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:
TimR wrote:

That's interesting. My lights dim slightly when the heat pump compressor kicks on, but not at all when the oven cycles.



Hi.

Motor is inductive load. Heating element inductance is negligible, it is

resistive load.

I think the bigger difference is that a central AC is a larger load
for a second than any oven. Stoves/ovens are typically on a 40A circuit,
but all the elements don't come on or off at the same time. Typicall oven
element is just a fraction of that 40A. Typical AC could pull 30, 40A
for a sec or so as it starts up.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
TimR wrote:
That's interesting. My lights dim slightly when the heat pump compressor
kicks on, but not at all when the oven cycles.

Hi.
Motor is inductive load. Heating element inductance is negligible, it is
resistive load.

The motor also has a very low resistance/reactance while it is getting up to
speed.

The oven element also has a low resistance before heating up, but not nearly
as low to high resistance ratio as the motor. It will also usually heat up
much faster than the motor will get up to speed. The lights may have enough
thermal lag to take care of the oven cycling.

On Monday, August 11, 2014 11:06:09 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message

...

Just because it doesn't occur to the extent that you can actually see it

in all cases, doesn't change how ohms law works. If a large load causes

the voltage to drop from 120V to 119V, I doubt you'd notice it, but the

effect is still there. And a central AC turning on is a huge load for

a second or so, as it starts up. Mine has a 50A breaker, while it's

normal operating current once it gets going is probably half that. I

can't see the lights dim here either, with a 200A service. But I have

seen

it happen in plenty of older homes, with smaller services.



Just like when I was growing up almost every time the refrigerator would

start up, the TV would act up for a few seconds way back in the 1950s and

eairly 60s.



I lived in a 2 bed room duplex apartment at one time and the main fuse box

had 2 30 amp screw in fuses for it. I think it was built before WW2.



I don't seem to see the lights dim in my house when the heat pump cycles,

but I am sure there is some voltage drop, just not enought to notice. There

is atleast 200 feet of cable from the transformer to the house.



I did put in a digital voltmeter from China a couple of days ago to monitor

the the line voltage. It has gone from 119 to 123 during the times I have

looked at it. I don't see how they can ship it here for a total of less

than $ 4.00. It is even right on with my Fluke multimeter. I am not sure

how long it takes for it to react to a voltage change, but probably less

than 1 second. Have not monitored it when the HP comes on to see if it will

show a voltage drop.

I also got in some digital voltmeters that are just the display mounted on

the circuit boad for measuring low DC voltages. Four of them was less than

$ 6.00 shipped in. They display to the tenth of a volt and all 4 of them

were showing the same at 24 volts just as my Fluke meter was showing.

IDK how they supply and ship this super cheap stuff from China either. But
you see stuff on Ebay, where the item plus shipping straight from China
is just $3. Your luck with VOMs though is better than mine. I have a
30 year old Fluke that works perfectly. I have a Sears or Radio Shack,
don't remember which, that I bought 15 years ago to leave on my boat, for
$15. That still works. But I bought a harbor freight one for like $7
and it lasted a year. After that, the voltage reading was off by 20%.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
IDK how they supply and ship this super cheap stuff from China either.
But
you see stuff on Ebay, where the item plus shipping straight from China
is just $3. Your luck with VOMs though is better than mine. I have a
30 year old Fluke that works perfectly. I have a Sears or Radio Shack,
don't remember which, that I bought 15 years ago to leave on my boat, for
$15. That still works. But I bought a harbor freight one for like $7
and it lasted a year. After that, the voltage reading was off by 20%.

The thing I got were off ebay and shipped from China. They were not full
VOMs, but just a small piece of circuit board with 3 seven segment LED
displays. They had 3 wires comming out of the circuit board. One was a
common ground. One was for a supply voltage of from about 4 volts to 25
volts. The third wire was to check DC voltage from 0 to 100 volts. If you
hooked the two voltage leads together, it starts working around 3.5 to 4
volts and the max input is limiated to about 25 volts.

The AC display was made to be snapped into a hole in a panel and only has 2
wires to hook up to the AC line. I think it will work from about 70 to 300
volts. I put it in a small plastic box and put an AC cord to it and plugged
it into the wall outlet. As it displays 3 digits, it was the same as my
Fluke meter within 1/2 of a volt.
Not sure how long they will last as I just received them a week or so ago.

I have not tried any of the very inexpensive VOM test sets from China, but
have heard good and bad about them.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Monday, August 11, 2014 11:01:03 AM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:
TimR wrote:

That's interesting. My lights dim slightly when the heat pump
compressor kicks on, but not at all when the oven cycles.



Hi.

Motor is inductive load. Heating element inductance is negligible, it is

resistive load.

I think the bigger difference is that a central AC is a larger load
for a second than any oven. Stoves/ovens are typically on a 40A circuit,
but all the elements don't come on or off at the same time. Typicall oven
element is just a fraction of that 40A. Typical AC could pull 30, 40A
for a sec or so as it starts up.

and much more than 30, 40A for milliseconds as it starts up.

No, that ain't right.

An induction motor on a fridge compressor or central A/C typically comes up to speed within 1 or 2 seconds at the most.
The bake element in a stove takes a lot longer than that to heat up. You can hold it with your hand for 5 to 10 seconds while it's heating up.


Then why don't they stay on for a second and gradually dim when I shut them off?

No, a standard electric stove will be wired with 50 amp receptacle and plug. In fact there is no such thing as a receptacle and plug configuration for 40 amp 240 volt wiring. That's why 24 inch "apartment size" electric stoves will have 40 amp fuses and breakers, but will still use the standard 50 amp range cords and receptacles for 30 inch "residential size" electric stoves.