When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.

--

On 6/21/2014 3:44 PM, kathleen ellis wrote:
When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.

Are you changing the stove/range as well? If so, size it based on what
it needs.

The wire sizing isn't based on the number of conductors so use the same
as is there if the requirements haven't changed.

In general rule of thumb, the range will be on a 50A breaker and 8 ga
copper wire.

So the real answer is "we don't know" w/o additional information on the
range and breaker/fuse on the circuit.

--

On 6/21/2014 4:44 PM, kathleen ellis wrote:
When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.


Same size you have.

On Saturday, June 21, 2014 5:16:02 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 6/21/2014 3:44 PM, kathleen ellis wrote:

When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am

replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.



Are you changing the stove/range as well? If so, size it based on what

it needs.



The wire sizing isn't based on the number of conductors so use the same

as is there if the requirements haven't changed.



In general rule of thumb, the range will be on a 50A breaker and 8 ga

copper wire.



So the real answer is "we don't know" w/o additional information on the

range and breaker/fuse on the circuit.



--

+1

The wire size and breaker are determined by the
appliance. You seldom replace or change the wiring without
replacing the appliance, so this is a bit strange. The
appliance install instructions should say what to use.

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:44:01 +0000, kathleen ellis
wrote:

When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.
What size is there now? If you are using a 50 amp outlet you need
#6. It will be 6-3 with ground. (red/white/black plus green or
bare)What you have now will most likely be 6-2 with ground (black and
white plus bare ground)

kathleen ellis wrote:
When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.

Hi,
If it is brand new stove, there it should be mentioned in the manual.
4 wires what I'd get with proper wire gauge. It will meet code for sure.

On 6/21/2014 7:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:44:01 +0000, kathleen ellis
wrote:

When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.
What size is there now? If you are using a 50 amp outlet you need
#6. It will be 6-3 with ground. (red/white/black plus green or
bare)What you have now will most likely be 6-2 with ground (black and
white plus bare ground)

By NEC except for the lowest-possible rated temperature rating cable
made (which I'm not sure is even available any more) #8 is adequate for
50 A by my copy of the Tables. I don't recall ever seeing #6 just for a
range altho I suppose some of the newer double ovens and all the bells
and whistles might have 50 A demands...

--

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:00:53 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/21/2014 7:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:44:01 +0000, kathleen ellis
wrote:

When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.
What size is there now? If you are using a 50 amp outlet you need
#6. It will be 6-3 with ground. (red/white/black plus green or
bare)What you have now will most likely be 6-2 with ground (black and
white plus bare ground)

By NEC except for the lowest-possible rated temperature rating cable
made (which I'm not sure is even available any more) #8 is adequate for
50 A by my copy of the Tables. I don't recall ever seeing #6 just for a
range altho I suppose some of the newer double ovens and all the bells
and whistles might have 50 A demands...
Apund here #6 for range and #8 for drier is common, IIRC.

dpb writes:
On 6/21/2014 7:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:44:01 +0000, kathleen ellis
wrote:

When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.
What size is there now? If you are using a 50 amp outlet you need
#6. It will be 6-3 with ground. (red/white/black plus green or
bare)What you have now will most likely be 6-2 with ground (black and
white plus bare ground)

By NEC except for the lowest-possible rated temperature rating cable
made (which I'm not sure is even available any more) #8 is adequate for
50 A by my copy of the Tables. I don't recall ever seeing #6 just for a
range altho I suppose some of the newer double ovens and all the bells
and whistles might have 50 A demands...

Doesn't it also depend on the length of the run?

On 6/23/2014 3:08 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Doesn't it also depend on the length of the run?

1. Determine the load in amps.
2. Select a cable to handle the amps.
3. Select a breaker to limit amperage and protect the cable.
4. Up-size the cable if the permissible voltage drop would be exceeded.

On Monday, June 23, 2014 8:55:13 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 6/23/2014 3:08 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Doesn't it also depend on the length of the run?



1. Determine the load in amps.

2. Select a cable to handle the amps.

3. Select a breaker to limit amperage and protect the cable.

4. Up-size the cable if the permissible voltage drop would be exceeded.

You mean you want to do it the right way?

If it is a double oven stove or a stove with a warming drawer you need number 6 copper wire.

If it is a basic stove you can get by with #8 copper.

The best thing is to check the stove installation instructions or the nameplate.



When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am

replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.



--

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 09:54:26 -0700 (PDT), John G
wrote:

If it is a double oven stove or a stove with a warming drawer you need number 6 copper wire.

If it is a basic stove you can get by with #8 copper.

The best thing is to check the stove installation instructions or the nameplate.



When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am

replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.



--
Because you never know what the "next" stove might be, it is highly
recommended to put the #6 cable in when replacing old cable to upgrade
to "current code". It would be a pitty to have to do the job all over
again next time you buy a new stove just because you "cheaped out"
this time

Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.

It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.

It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.
From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a
"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that
was currently installed.

On 6/28/2014 9:18 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.

It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.
From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a
"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that
was currently installed.

But while he said he is running a new wire, he may not have to. Newer
appliances have the 4 wire, but I think it is still code to adapt them
to existing 3 wire systems. You need a new cord to do so.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 22:34:33 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/28/2014 9:18 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.

It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.
From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a
"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that
was currently installed.

But while he said he is running a new wire, he may not have to. Newer
appliances have the 4 wire, but I think it is still code to adapt them
to existing 3 wire systems. You need a new cord to do so.
It might still be code today - but still a good idea to upgrade to
the 4 wire if it's not too difficult to get at.

On Saturday, June 28, 2014 10:34:33 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/28/2014 9:18 PM, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR

wrote:



Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.



It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.

From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a

"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that

was currently installed.



But while he said he is running a new wire, he may not have to. Newer

appliances have the 4 wire, but I think it is still code to adapt them

to existing 3 wire systems. You need a new cord to do so.

It's iffy. If the appliance has a plug on it and has instructions for wiring it to a 3 wire outlet then you may do that. If the appliance hardwires in then no.

Probably got a stove that has 110v circuit in it as well as 220. Some newer stoves with electronics often do that. Not sure why since they could just as easily have their switching power supply for the electronics work on 220. In any case they probably need a 4 wire circuit and I'd go with #6 just so I never had to mess with it again.

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 9:32:48 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Saturday, June 28, 2014 10:34:33 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/28/2014 9:18 PM, wrote:



On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR



wrote:







Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.







It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.



From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a



"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that



was currently installed.







But while he said he is running a new wire, he may not have to. Newer



appliances have the 4 wire, but I think it is still code to adapt them



to existing 3 wire systems. You need a new cord to do so.



It's iffy. If the appliance has a plug on it and has instructions for wiring it to a 3 wire outlet then you may do that. If the appliance hardwires in then no.



NEw ovens typically have installation intructions for hard wiring it in to either a 3 wire or 4 wire installation. Every install manual I've seen
covers wiring it in direct to 3 wire, if that's what's there. Given that
the installation instructions specifically cover it, AFAIK, it's code compliant and you're not required to run new wiring back to the panel.




Probably got a stove that has 110v circuit in it as well as 220. Some newer stoves with electronics often do that. Not sure why since they could just as easily have their switching power supply for the electronics work on 220. In any case they probably need a 4 wire circuit and I'd go with #6 just so I never had to mess with it again.

Stoves have had 120V available on a 3 wire cord for 50+ years. You
have the two hots, the third wire serves as both the neutral and the
ground. It's permitted to carry current, that gives you 120V. And it's
very common for stoves to have lights, receptacles to plug a coffe pot in,
etc that are 120V. Stoves back in the 50s had them.

What's different with 4 wires is that adds a separate dedicated ground,
which doesn't carry current, instead of sharing the neutral as the ground,
as is done with 3 wires.

On Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:44:01 PM UTC-4, kathleen ellis wrote:
When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am

replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.



--

I prefer the 4 wire install, how many here would wire a outlet with the neutral being ground too?

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:20:06 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 9:32:48 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

On Saturday, June 28, 2014 10:34:33 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On 6/28/2014 9:18 PM, wrote:







On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR







wrote:















Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.















It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.







From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a







"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that







was currently installed.















But while he said he is running a new wire, he may not have to. Newer







appliances have the 4 wire, but I think it is still code to adapt them







to existing 3 wire systems. You need a new cord to do so.







It's iffy. If the appliance has a plug on it and has instructions for wiring it to a 3 wire outlet then you may do that. If the appliance hardwires in then no.







NEw ovens typically have installation intructions for hard wiring it in to either a 3 wire or 4 wire installation. Every install manual I've seen

covers wiring it in direct to 3 wire, if that's what's there. Given that

the installation instructions specifically cover it, AFAIK, it's code compliant and you're not required to run new wiring back to the panel.









Probably got a stove that has 110v circuit in it as well as 220. Some newer stoves with electronics often do that. Not sure why since they could just as easily have their switching power supply for the electronics work on 220. In any case they probably need a 4 wire circuit and I'd go with #6 just so I never had to mess with it again.



Stoves have had 120V available on a 3 wire cord for 50+ years. You

have the two hots, the third wire serves as both the neutral and the

ground. It's permitted to carry current, that gives you 120V. And it's

very common for stoves to have lights, receptacles to plug a coffe pot in,

etc that are 120V. Stoves back in the 50s had them.



What's different with 4 wires is that adds a separate dedicated ground,

which doesn't carry current, instead of sharing the neutral as the ground,

as is done with 3 wires.

Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.

Sure, they ran the analog clocks on 110 you used to see in the middle of them.

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:20:06 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 9:32:48 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:



On Saturday, June 28, 2014 10:34:33 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:







On 6/28/2014 9:18 PM, wrote:















On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR















wrote:































Everyone is assuming the OP needs to run a new circuit to the stove location.































It is also possible it is just a new cord and plug on the stove, in which case the answer is going to be different.















From what I remember it was pretty plain the OP needed to provide a















"4 wire circuit" for the stove. to replace the "3 wire circuit" that















was currently installed.































But while he said he is running a new wire, he may not have to. Newer















appliances have the 4 wire, but I think it is still code to adapt them















to existing 3 wire systems. You need a new cord to do so.















It's iffy. If the appliance has a plug on it and has instructions for wiring it to a 3 wire outlet then you may do that. If the appliance hardwires in then no.















NEw ovens typically have installation intructions for hard wiring it in to either a 3 wire or 4 wire installation. Every install manual I've seen



covers wiring it in direct to 3 wire, if that's what's there. Given that



the installation instructions specifically cover it, AFAIK, it's code compliant and you're not required to run new wiring back to the panel.



















Probably got a stove that has 110v circuit in it as well as 220. Some newer stoves with electronics often do that. Not sure why since they could just as easily have their switching power supply for the electronics work on 220. In any case they probably need a 4 wire circuit and I'd go with #6 just so I never had to mess with it again.







Stoves have had 120V available on a 3 wire cord for 50+ years. You



have the two hots, the third wire serves as both the neutral and the



ground. It's permitted to carry current, that gives you 120V. And it's



very common for stoves to have lights, receptacles to plug a coffe pot in,



etc that are 120V. Stoves back in the 50s had them.







What's different with 4 wires is that adds a separate dedicated ground,



which doesn't carry current, instead of sharing the neutral as the ground,



as is done with 3 wires.



Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.



Maybe some inspector, somewhere will, but it's obviously the exception,
otherwise all the manufacturers of ovens and stoves would not include
instructions on how to wire the appliance into either 3 wire or 4 wire.
If it was a code violation or not acceptable to most inspectors,
it would be totally irresponsible.

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:32:36 AM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
On Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:44:01 PM UTC-4, kathleen ellis wrote:

When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am



replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.







--



I prefer the 4 wire install, how many here would wire a outlet with the neutral being ground too?

Would you prefer it if it costs $1000 extra to run a new 4 wire cable
back to the panel? The comparison with the outlet isn't a good comparison,
because it's never been code to wire an outlet with the neutral
and ground shared. In the case of existing oven circuits, it's permitted
and common. From a technical perspective, a general purpose
outlet is typically different than a dedicated hardwired oven or oven
receptacle. In the case of outlets, there are typically multiple
outlets, lights etc on a circuit, more places for connections to come loose or
other problems to crop up. In the case of an oven, the shared neutral/grd
is on a dedictaed 8 gauge or better cicuit from the panel to the appliance.

Is 4 wire better and required for new circuit runs? Yes. Would I
go changing an otherwise adequate 3 wire circuit to 4, just to replace
an oven? No. Apparently all the oven manufacturers agree, because every
oven install manual I've seen shows how to connect it to either a 3 wire
or 4 wire circuit.

On 7/1/2014 10:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
....

Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to
the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.
....

The point is, it _IS_ "to Code" and would be highly unlikely imo to find
a local Code that isn't as well in this particular regard.

Maybe some inspector, somewhere will, but it's obviously the exception,
otherwise all the manufacturers of ovens and stoves would not include
instructions on how to wire the appliance into either 3 wire or 4 wire.
If it was a code violation or not acceptable to most inspectors,
it would be totally irresponsible.

And inspectors have been known to be wrong or overly zealous, too...

--

On 7/1/2014 9:32 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:44:01 PM UTC-4, kathleen ellis wrote:
When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.

....

I prefer the 4 wire install, how many here would wire a outlet with
the neutral being ground too?

I, for one...there's 75+ yr of existing practice that hasn't
demonstrated any real problem.

When had repair on the well a couple of summers ago, the well service
guys used section of 4-wire cable to replace the torn up section because
they said the current county Code req'd it as only they could run. Of
course, they then clipped the ground conductor on both ends since
there's nowhere for it to go, anyways. About as stupid as blindly
replacing a 3-wire for a 4-wire in a range/electric dryer app.

--

dpb writes:
On 7/1/2014 10:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
...

Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to
the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.
...

The point is, it _IS_ "to Code" and would be highly unlikely imo to find
a local Code that isn't as well in this particular regard.

Maybe some inspector, somewhere will, but it's obviously the exception,
otherwise all the manufacturers of ovens and stoves would not include
instructions on how to wire the appliance into either 3 wire or 4 wire.
If it was a code violation or not acceptable to most inspectors,
it would be totally irresponsible.

And inspectors have been known to be wrong or overly zealous, too...


And anonymous posters on the internet are authoritative?

I'd advise someone to get advice from a local professional, not
from alt.home.repair.

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 2:44:02 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
dpb writes:

On 7/1/2014 10:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

...



Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to

the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.

...



The point is, it _IS_ "to Code" and would be highly unlikely imo to find

a local Code that isn't as well in this particular regard.



Maybe some inspector, somewhere will, but it's obviously the exception,

otherwise all the manufacturers of ovens and stoves would not include

instructions on how to wire the appliance into either 3 wire or 4 wire.

If it was a code violation or not acceptable to most inspectors,

it would be totally irresponsible.



And inspectors have been known to be wrong or overly zealous, too...





And anonymous posters on the internet are authoritative?



Not always, but I'd say appliance installation instructions from
dozens of manufacturers of ovens, ranges, dryers is. And they all say that
you can hook it up to an existing 3 wire or 4 wire circuit. Also there is
the NEC.


I'd advise someone to get advice from a local professional, not

from alt.home.repair.

OMG, someone is gonna die!

I guess we should all just pack up and close down AHR, because you
don't know the answer. The same could be said of most of the questions
on AHR. Good grief.

On 7/1/2014 1:44 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On 7/1/2014 10:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
...

Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to
the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.
...

The point is, it _IS_ "to Code" and would be highly unlikely imo to find
a local Code that isn't as well in this particular regard.

Maybe some inspector, somewhere will, but it's obviously the exception,
otherwise all the manufacturers of ovens and stoves would not include
instructions on how to wire the appliance into either 3 wire or 4 wire.
If it was a code violation or not acceptable to most inspectors,
it would be totally irresponsible.

And inspectors have been known to be wrong or overly zealous, too...


And anonymous posters on the internet are authoritative?
....

What about "anonymous" posters who happen to have read/know what the NEC
actually says?

"250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers

Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking
units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the
circuit for these appliances shall be connected to the equipment
grounding conductor in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.

Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only where an
equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction
box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted
cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are
part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be
connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following
conditions are met.

The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or
208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.

The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG
aluminum.

The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is
uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch
circuit originates at the service equipment.

Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the
equipment are bonded to the equipment."

--

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 4:06:36 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/1/2014 1:44 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

writes:

On 7/1/2014 10:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 10:49:12 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

...



Some inspectors will consider a hardwired appliance a change to

the wiring and require you to upgrade to code. Not all but some.

...



The point is, it _IS_ "to Code" and would be highly unlikely imo to find

a local Code that isn't as well in this particular regard.



Maybe some inspector, somewhere will, but it's obviously the exception,

otherwise all the manufacturers of ovens and stoves would not include

instructions on how to wire the appliance into either 3 wire or 4 wire.

If it was a code violation or not acceptable to most inspectors,

it would be totally irresponsible.



And inspectors have been known to be wrong or overly zealous, too...





And anonymous posters on the internet are authoritative?

...



What about "anonymous" posters who happen to have read/know what the NEC

actually says?



"250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers



Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking

units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the

circuit for these appliances shall be connected to the equipment

grounding conductor in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.



Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only where an

equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction

box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted

cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are

part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be

connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following

conditions are met.



The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or

208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.



The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG

aluminum.



The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is

uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch

circuit originates at the service equipment.



Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the

equipment are bonded to the equipment."



--

Ahmen to that brother!

On 7/1/2014 10:37 AM, wrote:
....

It probably should be pointed out that the change in the 96 code was
simply as an attempt by Phil Simmonds to create uniformity, not
because there was a pile of bodies to justify it.
The quote was "the war is over" in reference to copper shortages in
the 1940s that prompted the exception.

Excepting that Cu is so pricey now that folks are ripping up installed
AC units and stripping ground wires from power poles and the like...so
let's just willy-nilly drive needless usage/demand/price even higher.
Makes sense to me...

I have a 3 wire dryer circuit and I have no intention of changing it
any time soon.

BTW if your dryer is wired with Romex, legally, you probably have 4
wires in the cable anyway so fixing it is trivial. 10/3 without a
ground is pretty rare ...

Certainly wasn't rare at all back when many of these installations were
put in.


The one that was legal was 10/2 -wg SE cable as long as it was fed
from the main panel (where the service disconnect and main bonding
jumper resides). I never understood why that SE cable exception
existed but it was there.

Because SE cable covering is rated for the voltage insulation whereas NM
outer jacket may not be; it's an outer sheath to hold the conductors
together physically with some insulating property but not qualified as
insulated per UL listing/Code.

--

On 7/1/2014 9:32 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Saturday, June 21, 2014 4:44:01 PM UTC-4, kathleen ellis wrote:
When replacing the wiring for a stove what size wire should be used? I am
replacing 3 wires with 4 wire.
....

I prefer the 4 wire install, how many here would wire a outlet with
the neutral being ground too?

Besides the aforementioned Code exception that doesn't require and
expressly permits the continued usage of 3-wire in existing
applications, there are a number of alternatives for rework/existing
work allowed by Code to add the ground if that is really, really, really
wanted besides running a new 4-wire cable the full distance.

These include pulling a separate ground and also exceptions that that
added ground doesn't necessarily have to follow the same path or even be
grounded at the same terminus. For the specifics see the Code or
consult local Code gurus.

--

On 7/1/2014 11:52 AM, dpb wrote:
....

When had repair on the well a couple of summers ago, the well service
guys used section of 4-wire cable to replace the torn up section because
they said the current county Code req'd it as only they could run. Of
course, they then clipped the ground conductor on both ends since
there's nowhere for it to go, anyways. About as stupid as blindly
replacing a 3-wire for a 4-wire in a range/electric dryer app.

ADDENDUM to this story...

I've not researched this point in detail but I think this is a place
where the requirement quoted above is, in fact, a case of
misinterpretation of the NEC requirements as there is for the well pump
nothing but a single 240V load; there is no neutral current return from
a 120V circuit as is the situation trying to be avoided by the update to
the Code as there is in the case of the range or dryer.

Turns out we may be forced to drill a new well before long; I'm certain
to research this in depth (so to speak ) before spending an extra
third for 4-wire down a 300-ft hole when there's nothing for that fourth
conductor to do anyway except take up space and add to the expense.

If I'd been on the NFPA Code Committee when this came up I'd have voted
"no" simply on the cost/material basis of there being no demonstrable
real problem being solved that justified the added expense. "Parsimony"
is a virtue in engineering, too...

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On Wednesday, July 2, 2014 6:06:27 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/1/2014 11:52 AM, dpb wrote:

...



When had repair on the well a couple of summers ago, the well service

guys used section of 4-wire cable to replace the torn up section because

they said the current county Code req'd it as only they could run. Of

course, they then clipped the ground conductor on both ends since

there's nowhere for it to go, anyways. About as stupid as blindly

replacing a 3-wire for a 4-wire in a range/electric dryer app.



ADDENDUM to this story...



I've not researched this point in detail but I think this is a place

where the requirement quoted above is, in fact, a case of

misinterpretation of the NEC requirements as there is for the well pump

nothing but a single 240V load; there is no neutral current return from

a 120V circuit as is the situation trying to be avoided by the update to

the Code as there is in the case of the range or dryer.



I would agree that the well situation is a
misinterpretation of the code by someone. Even in cases where you
think the code section is excessive on some point, I've always
been able to see some point to doing it. To insert a section of 4 wire
cable in the middle of a 3 wire and leave the 4th unconnected,
obviously does nothing. Also, 240V loads are routinely connected
and are code compliant without a neutral all the time. That's how
wells are done here. So, I'd say either this is the well guys that
don't know what they are talking about, or else some local inspector
type that issued some edict either incorrectly or incorrectly interpreted,
etc.




Turns out we may be forced to drill a new well before long; I'm certain

to research this in depth (so to speak ) before spending an extra

third for 4-wire down a 300-ft hole when there's nothing for that fourth

conductor to do anyway except take up space and add to the expense.



I agree.




If I'd been on the NFPA Code Committee when this came up I'd have voted

"no" simply on the cost/material basis of there being no demonstrable

real problem being solved that justified the added expense. "Parsimony"

is a virtue in engineering, too...



--

Do you have any reason to believe it's part of the NEC?

A, as you say, it makes no sense at all from any physics

B, wells here are put in with 240V, 2 hots + ground all the time
and they pass electrical inspection.

On 7/3/2014 6:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 2, 2014 6:06:27 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

....big snip...

If I'd been on the NFPA Code Committee when this came up I'd have voted
"no" simply on the cost/material basis of there being no demonstrable
real problem being solved that justified the added expense. "Parsimony"
is a virtue in engineering, too...
....

Do you have any reason to believe it's part of the NEC?

A, as you say, it makes no sense at all from any physics

B, wells here are put in with 240V, 2 hots + ground all the time
and they pass electrical inspection.

I was mixing both topics here and switched back once too quickly,
apparently...

No, I do _NOT_ think there's likely anything in NEC that justified the
4-wire cable in the well-hole; I have yet to discover from whence came
the supposed edict referred to by the well service guys...

What I was speaking of in the "voting against" comment is the new
section that requires the 4-wire for the grounding of the oven/dryer
branch circuit. There as you I do see there is at least an issue; I
just don't agree that the disease is worth the cost of the cure given
the history (or more correctly, the lack thereof) indicating it is a
safety issue of any magnitude at all.

I obviously wasn't in the room but I'd have had to seen an impressive
litany of cases where it had been the root cause of a problem and if
that were to have been demonstrated then I don't see how it could have
been justified to leave the exception standing. Making the change was,
imo, just bureaucracy doing what it does in this case. Most of the time
NFPA does a pretty good job but I think they misstepped on this one.

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