Miami, FL

"...The video shows a little girl touch the hand railing and
immediately she is shocked. Her father quickly reacts, getting
shocked himself as he pulls her out. Her body appears lifeless. As
the pool empties out, one child is still attached to the railing
unable to move. Electricity makes your muscles contract which means
you can’t move. That becomes quite clear when Freddie Cabrera enters
the video. He reaches in for his granddaughter Daniella. As he
touches her, he feels a charge which causes him to fall back as he’s
pulling her out. His quick reaction may have saved her life."

[...]

"Thus far a preliminary investigation has pointed to unconnected
ground wires in the pool pump house. The wires are supposed to take
electrical charges to the ground, away from the pool.

Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."

https://tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

Three children were briefly hospitalized after the incident, which
occurred at an apartment complex.

On 05/23/2014 04:05 PM, Oren wrote:


Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

I'm guessing the last guy in that electrical panel was not a licensed electrician.

On Fri, 23 May 2014 16:36:01 -0400, Jab Yarbrough
wrote:

On 05/23/2014 04:05 PM, Oren wrote:


Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

I'm guessing the last guy in that electrical panel was not a licensed electrician.

My take was the motor in the "pump house" was not bonded to the
grounding rod. I'd guess they changed a motor and did not bond it to
ground?

On 5/23/2014 4:36 PM, Jab Yarbrough wrote:
On 05/23/2014 04:05 PM, Oren wrote:


Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

I'm guessing the last guy in that electrical panel was not a licensed
electrician.

If he is, he may not be for much longer.

On Friday, May 23, 2014 4:50:44 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2014 16:36:01 -0400, Jab Yarbrough

wrote:



On 05/23/2014 04:05 PM, Oren wrote:





Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than

heading toward the ground."

http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny



I'm guessing the last guy in that electrical panel was not a licensed electrician.



My take was the motor in the "pump house" was not bonded to the

grounding rod. I'd guess they changed a motor and did not bond it to

ground?

All the metal that's around the pool, like that metal handrail,
the pool deck, and all the metal of the pool equipment, eg pumps,
heaters, etc are supposed to be bonded together. But there would
have to be more than just not bonding the motor to cause this.
Code now requires new pumps to be on GFCI too, which could help
prevent things like this.

That outdoor box with all the wires hanging out looks like a
good place to start looking..... If it was like that before the
accident, whoever was responsible for just
operating the pool, the property manager, etc should have known
enough to call an electrician. Clearly that itself was an obvious
danger, even if it didn't shock someone in the pool itself. They
are very lucky they didn't get killed.

On 5/23/2014 4:36 PM, Jab Yarbrough wrote:

I'm guessing the last guy in that
electrical panel was not a licensed
electrician.

After considerable thought, I think
there is some merit in that view.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 23 May 2014 13:05:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

Miami, FL

"...The video shows a little girl touch the hand railing and
immediately she is shocked. Her father quickly reacts, getting
shocked himself as he pulls her out. Her body appears lifeless. As
the pool empties out, one child is still attached to the railing
unable to move. Electricity makes your muscles contract which means
you can’t move. That becomes quite clear when Freddie Cabrera enters
the video. He reaches in for his granddaughter Daniella. As he
touches her, he feels a charge which causes him to fall back as he’s
pulling her out. His quick reaction may have saved her life."

[...]

Yeah, I saw this on TV. One man's arm flew up when he first tried to
grab a kid.

They weren't all one incident, I don't think, and you have to give these
guys credit, one of them a stranger or at least not family, for not
being so frightened of something one should be at least somewhat
frightened of.

It reminded me of trying to remove a spark plug wire while a car is
running. It's really hard to do at first, but get's easier the more
times you try, both in those 3 minutes, and I think cumulatively over
the years. I don't know if my nevves just don't respond as much, or
if I reach for the wire with greater expectation of the shock and
greater determination to ignore it.

"Thus far a preliminary investigation has pointed to unconnected
ground wires in the pool pump house. The wires are supposed to take
electrical charges to the ground, away from the pool.

Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."

https://tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

Three children were briefly hospitalized after the incident, which
occurred at an apartment complex.

On 05/23/2014 07:55 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 5/23/2014 4:36 PM, Jab Yarbrough wrote:

I'm guessing the last guy in that
electrical panel was not a licensed
electrician.

After considerable thought, I think
there is some merit in that view.


I know what I'm doing. I been doing electric work since I was 3 years old. I don't need no stinkin' electrical permit or inspection. It's just a money grab.

"Jab Yarbrough" wrote in message
eb.com...

I'm guessing the last guy in that electrical panel was not a licensed
electrician.

I know a licensed electrician and I would not let him change the battery in
a one cell flashlight.

Per Ralph Mowery:
I know a licensed electrician and I would not let him change the battery in
a one cell flashlight.

I'd say almost the same thing about the guy who installed 120v AC to our
garden shed last year. I actually felt sorry for the guy.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 5/24/2014 10:34 AM, Jack Legg wrote:

I know what I'm doing. I been doing electric work since I was 3 years
old. I don't need no stinkin' electrical permit or inspection. It's just
a money grab.

I'm shocked at you.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Oren posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Miami, FL

"...The video shows a little girl touch the hand railing and
immediately she is shocked. Her father quickly reacts, getting
shocked himself as he pulls her out. Her body appears lifeless. As
the pool empties out, one child is still attached to the railing
unable to move. Electricity makes your muscles contract which means
you can?t move. That becomes quite clear when Freddie Cabrera enters
the video. He reaches in for his granddaughter Daniella. As he
touches her, he feels a charge which causes him to fall back as he?s
pulling her out. His quick reaction may have saved her life."

[...]

"Thus far a preliminary investigation has pointed to unconnected
ground wires in the pool pump house. The wires are supposed to take
electrical charges to the ground, away from the pool.

Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."

https://tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

Three children were briefly hospitalized after the incident, which
occurred at an apartment complex.

Ping Greg Fretwell his line of expertise.

I got the impression they threw the inspectors under the bus. If they
inspected and passed it who can say the jackleg asshole that did this 5
minutes after they left? i hope something good comes out of this.

The caretakers are to be commended for actually paying attention to the
kids. Stories around here don't usually end this way; the caretakers are
absent or on drugs, etc.

--
Tekkie

On Sun, 25 May 2014 00:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 24 May 2014 20:51:29 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

Oren posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Miami, FL

"...The video shows a little girl touch the hand railing and
immediately she is shocked. Her father quickly reacts, getting
shocked himself as he pulls her out. Her body appears lifeless. As
the pool empties out, one child is still attached to the railing
unable to move. Electricity makes your muscles contract which means
you can?t move. That becomes quite clear when Freddie Cabrera enters
the video. He reaches in for his granddaughter Daniella. As he
touches her, he feels a charge which causes him to fall back as he?s
pulling her out. His quick reaction may have saved her life."

[...]

"Thus far a preliminary investigation has pointed to unconnected
ground wires in the pool pump house. The wires are supposed to take
electrical charges to the ground, away from the pool.

Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than
heading toward the ground."

https://tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny

Three children were briefly hospitalized after the incident, which
occurred at an apartment complex.

Ping Greg Fretwell his line of expertise.

I got the impression they threw the inspectors under the bus. If they
inspected and passed it who can say the jackleg asshole that did this 5
minutes after they left? i hope something good comes out of this.

The caretakers are to be commended for actually paying attention to the
kids. Stories around here don't usually end this way; the caretakers are
absent or on drugs, etc.

How could you tell if these were the assigned lifeguards? I thought
they were fathers, or in one case just a guy.

When I was 19 and we were at a motel, I jumped in the pool and again
dislocated my shoulder. I was okay paddling to the edge of the pool
with one arm, but my step-father noticed and was trying to help me. The
lifeguard in the little pool was in his chair and gave no evidence of
goofing off, but he didn't notice anything. (I didnt' ask for help,
though. If I'd been below the surface or asking for help, he likely
would have noticed.)

Health inspectors do not really do electric code inspections. I doubt
many of them even have an electrical punch on their license.
I agree it is a hole in the process.

I bet that changes. This is not the first time this has happened this
year. (3 I think)
I just popped the question to one of the chief building officials I
know to see what they think

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 5:15:41 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Sun, 25 May 2014 00:20:35 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 24 May 2014 20:51:29 -0400, Tekkie�

wrote:



Oren posted for all of us...



And I know how to SNIP





Miami, FL



"...The video shows a little girl touch the hand railing and

immediately she is shocked. Her father quickly reacts, getting

shocked himself as he pulls her out. Her body appears lifeless. As

the pool empties out, one child is still attached to the railing

unable to move. Electricity makes your muscles contract which means

you can?t move. That becomes quite clear when Freddie Cabrera enters

the video. He reaches in for his granddaughter Daniella. As he

touches her, he feels a charge which causes him to fall back as he?s

pulling her out. His quick reaction may have saved her life."



[...]



"Thus far a preliminary investigation has pointed to unconnected

ground wires in the pool pump house. The wires are supposed to take

electrical charges to the ground, away from the pool.



Crime scene photos show the wires hanging in the air rather than

heading toward the ground."



https://tinyurl.com/p6yhpny



http://preview.tinyurl.com/p6yhpny



Three children were briefly hospitalized after the incident, which

occurred at an apartment complex.



Ping Greg Fretwell his line of expertise.



I got the impression they threw the inspectors under the bus. If they

inspected and passed it who can say the jackleg asshole that did this 5

minutes after they left? i hope something good comes out of this.



The caretakers are to be commended for actually paying attention to the

kids. Stories around here don't usually end this way; the caretakers are

absent or on drugs, etc.



How could you tell if these were the assigned lifeguards? I thought

they were fathers, or in one case just a guy.



When I was 19 and we were at a motel, I jumped in the pool and again

dislocated my shoulder. I was okay paddling to the edge of the pool

with one arm, but my step-father noticed and was trying to help me. The

lifeguard in the little pool was in his chair and gave no evidence of

goofing off, but he didn't notice anything. (I didnt' ask for help,

though. If I'd been below the surface or asking for help, he likely

would have noticed.)


At a condo I lived at back in the 80's, a girl about 6 drowned in
the pool. She was there with her grandmother and siblings. There was
a lifeguard on duty and lots of other people at the pool. No one
saw anything, until it was too late. I suspect the siblings were
probably screwing around and did something to contribute to it, but
no one knows for sure. You would think in situtation like that,
even if something bad happened, there would be an excellent chance
of reviving the person, because they were still on it very quickly,
but sadly not in that case.

On Sun, 25 May 2014 06:06:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

At a condo I lived at back in the 80's, a girl about 6 drowned in
the pool. She was there with her grandmother and siblings. There was
a lifeguard on duty and lots of other people at the pool. No one
saw anything, until it was too late. I suspect the siblings were
probably screwing around and did something to contribute to it, but
no one knows for sure. You would think in situtation like that,
even if something bad happened, there would be an excellent chance
of reviving the person, because they were still on it very quickly,
but sadly not in that case.

After this incident, a doctor in the news was suggesting having a
Defibrillator in the pool area. I don't know what legal ramifications
could come about because of a person not being trained.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defibrillation

A Good Samaritan has been sued for exposing a breast, saving a woman's
life. Don't recall how that worked out.

On Sun, 25 May 2014 13:40:42 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2014 06:06:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

At a condo I lived at back in the 80's, a girl about 6 drowned in
the pool. She was there with her grandmother and siblings. There was
a lifeguard on duty and lots of other people at the pool. No one
saw anything, until it was too late. I suspect the siblings were
probably screwing around and did something to contribute to it, but
no one knows for sure. You would think in situtation like that,
even if something bad happened, there would be an excellent chance
of reviving the person, because they were still on it very quickly,
but sadly not in that case.

I hear competing stories about CPR being rarely helpful (I've only heard
this one once) and of it often being a true lifesaver.

After this incident, a doctor in the news was suggesting having a
Defibrillator in the pool area. I don't know what legal ramifications
could come about because of a person not being trained.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defibrillation

A Good Samaritan has been sued for exposing a breast, saving a woman's
life. Don't recall how that worked out.

That's a lot of nerve. But these outragious stories spread fast and
might have more merit than they sound, and probably are much rarer than
they seem.

I think all states have good samaritan laws which require a high level
of negligence before a volunteer is liable. But the opposing problem,
legal or not, is that when one person starts to help, often others who
know more won't. If the guy's wearing a tie, onlookers may think he's
a doctor and a much better skilled person might wait quietly, waiting to
see what happens, by which time it's too late. Perhaps a loud
expression of how little training one has before he starts to help would
alleviate some of that.


I also wonder about times when there is no fire but they pull people out
of wrecks, people who might need back boards or neck braces, or not
moved at all .


Someone once posted "According to my First Aid trainer.. the last time
somebody got sued in Alberta(or even Canada was many years ago, a lady
at the WEM parking lot was having a heart attack or something, 2 guys
with first aid training stopped to help her, did CPR and in the process
had to remove her blouse and bra (she was an older lady, and in first
aid we're taugh go down to skin as shirt buttons/bras can start to cut
skin, theirs and yours... plus if paramedics show up and use an AED
they'll have to remove the clothing anyhow) anyhow she lived and sued
because they exposed her breasts to the public the judge told her to
take a hike and be thank full she's alive(or something to that effect)

He said the last guy to get sued and actually get crap for doing first
aid was a guy with no training and he saw somebody choking so he did a
trake.. when the judge asked why did he think he could do it, his answer
was "I saw it on MASH" his missed and hit the corotted(sp.. you know the
main artery in your neck) and the person died...

But that's based on what my first aid teacher guy said.. "

And in the movies, they always lift someone's head up. If he's losing
blood, for example, isn't he better off with his head as low as the rest
of his body, so it gets as much blood as possible?

On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:15:09 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2014 05:15:41 -0400, micky
wrote:

How could you tell if these were the assigned lifeguards?

Most of these places do not have lifeguards. In fact I am not sure I
have even seen a lifeguard at a pool in Florida. They may have them at
a big municipal pool but not in apartments, condos and hotels.

So by caretakers you just mean whoever was there, family or by chance,
and took care. The word confused me.

On Mon, 26 May 2014 10:02:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

I think all states have good samaritan laws which require a high level
of negligence before a volunteer is liable. But the opposing problem,
legal or not, is that when one person starts to help, often others who
know more won't. If the guy's wearing a tie, onlookers may think he's
a doctor and a much better skilled person might wait quietly, waiting to
see what happens, by which time it's too late. Perhaps a loud
expression of how little training one has before he starts to help would
alleviate some of that.

_California Supreme Court Rules Good Samaritans Can Be Sued_

http://www.torklaw.com/2008/12/california-supreme-court-rules-good-samaritans-can-be-sued/

On Monday, May 26, 2014 10:44:52 AM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2014 10:02:55 -0400, micky

wrote:



I think all states have good samaritan laws which require a high level

of negligence before a volunteer is liable. But the opposing problem,

legal or not, is that when one person starts to help, often others who

know more won't. If the guy's wearing a tie, onlookers may think he's

a doctor and a much better skilled person might wait quietly, waiting to

see what happens, by which time it's too late. Perhaps a loud

expression of how little training one has before he starts to help would

alleviate some of that.



_California Supreme Court Rules Good Samaritans Can Be Sued_



http://www.torklaw.com/2008/12/california-supreme-court-rules-good-samaritans-can-be-sued/

So, the message is just call 911 and don't get involved. Another classic
case of what happens when loons take over the courts. Here in NJ, the
state SC has been running the school system for 40 years now. Back in the
70's they managed to decide that it was unconstitutional for school districts
in poorer communities to not have the same funding as schools in more affluent
districts. Ever since then, the funding for those
schools has been in the control of not the governor, not the legislature,
not the voters, but the SC. They've perverted it so that the districts
in the failing inner city neighborhoods have way *more* funding per student
than students in affluent suburbs. We're paying for it with the some of
the highest taxes in the country. And 40 years later the SC still actively controls it, having unconstitutionally usurped the power of the elected
officials. Oh, and the kids are still just as dumb as ever, because money
really isn't the problem.

On Mon, 26 May 2014 08:08:07 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

_California Supreme Court Rules Good Samaritans Can Be Sued_



http://www.torklaw.com/2008/12/california-supreme-court-rules-good-samaritans-can-be-sued/

So, the message is just call 911 and don't get involved. Another classic
case of what happens when loons take over the courts. Here in NJ, the
state SC has been running the school system for 40 years now. Back in the
70's they managed to decide that it was unconstitutional for school districts
in poorer communities to not have the same funding as schools in more affluent
districts. Ever since then, the funding for those
schools has been in the control of not the governor, not the legislature,
not the voters, but the SC. They've perverted it so that the districts
in the failing inner city neighborhoods have way *more* funding per student
than students in affluent suburbs. We're paying for it with the some of
the highest taxes in the country. And 40 years later the SC still actively controls it, having unconstitutionally usurped the power of the elected
officials. Oh, and the kids are still just as dumb as ever, because money
really isn't the problem.

Sad but true is that liberals think of themselves as superior
thinkers, people are to stupid to manage their own lives, so they have
to save you from yourself and your inferior knowledge. Its be going
on in the USA for more than 100 years. A bunch of do-gooders.

--
"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last" -- Winston Churchill

On Mon, 26 May 2014 07:44:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 26 May 2014 10:02:55 -0400, micky
wrote:

I think all states have good samaritan laws which require a high level
of negligence before a volunteer is liable. But the opposing problem,
legal or not, is that when one person starts to help, often others who
know more won't. If the guy's wearing a tie, onlookers may think he's
a doctor and a much better skilled person might wait quietly, waiting to
see what happens, by which time it's too late. Perhaps a loud
expression of how little training one has before he starts to help would
alleviate some of that.

_California Supreme Court Rules Good Samaritans Can Be Sued_

http://www.torklaw.com/2008/12/california-supreme-court-rules-good-samaritans-can-be-sued/

An article that brief is hardly worth posting, not by you but torklaw.
I would expect a law firm to have someone reed the decision and give
some details. Like I see in most onlline law reports from law firms.

And they didn't give the name of the case or any way to find it.
That's inexcusable.

This makes me think they are ambulance chasers or worse. This was
probably a particularly egregious case and didn't invalidate the law in
most situations. Or maybe the whole thing is a lie.


My HOA has a new law firm, and they publish summaries of law cases, or
at least they did 3 times in 2005 and 2006, but not since then. They
don't seem to look at their own webpage, because as a client, it looks
worse than if they had none. (But at least the 3 summaries they did
publish were better than the one from torklaw.) The rest of ther page
is bad too. (I know that there is no causal relationship between a bad
webpage and a bad company, but still.)

Fortunately after 25 years, we finally have a new president of the HOA
and they're talking about changing management companies and lawyers. I
hope so.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 03:15:41 -0400, micky
wrote:

_California Supreme Court Rules Good Samaritans Can Be Sued_

http://www.torklaw.com/2008/12/california-supreme-court-rules-good-samaritans-can-be-sued/

An article that brief is hardly worth posting, not by you but torklaw.
I would expect a law firm to have someone reed the decision and give
some details. Like I see in most onlline law reports from law firms.

And they didn't give the name of the case or any way to find it.
That's inexcusable.

You make a good point. If they write a synopsis of a case, at least
they should give the docket number for a reference.

micky posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

How could you tell if these were the assigned lifeguards? I thought
they were fathers, or in one case just a guy.


I wrote caretakers, not lifeguards.

--
Tekkie

micky posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:15:09 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2014 05:15:41 -0400, micky
wrote:

How could you tell if these were the assigned lifeguards?

Most of these places do not have lifeguards. In fact I am not sure I
have even seen a lifeguard at a pool in Florida. They may have them at
a big municipal pool but not in apartments, condos and hotels.

So by caretakers you just mean whoever was there, family or by chance,
and took care. The word confused me.


yes, did you see the video?
--
Tekkie