On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 9:54:59 AM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
trader_4 wrote:



And that everything matches up perfectly old to new, which it *usually*

does, but without seeing this one, who knows.



After shoehorning a new water heater into place, I recall a sense of

amazement that the damn thing lined up exactly with the existing plumbing. U

figured it was going to be another adventure in modern plumbing.

Like Claire, I didn't assume anything. No one knows how the old
WH is connected. No one knows for example if there is an old shutoff
valve that should be replaced and that is soldered in. The old tank
could be soldered in, no unions. And for the benefit of Homelessguy,
no I don't mean the tank itself is soldered in. You typically have a
threaded copper adaptor there and then it could be solder joints from
there on.

OP said he doesn't have a torch, never soldered, etc. This is a
fairly simple job, if you have the right skills and everything lines
up, like it may. But if the OP doesn't have the skills,
isn't comfortable screwing around with gas connections, etc, then
he shouldn't be made to feel bad for using a pro.

On 5/21/2014 3:00 PM, trader_4 wrote:



OP said he doesn't have a torch, never soldered, etc. This is a
fairly simple job, if you have the right skills and everything lines
up, like it may. But if the OP doesn't have the skills,
isn't comfortable screwing around with gas connections, etc, then
he shouldn't be made to feel bad for using a pro.


True, especially soldering. Once you know how, it is really easy. If
you've never held a torch it is very intimidating. Sharkbite fittings
though, make it possible for many people to do plumbing they never could
before.

OTOH, there are many people that should never attempt to change out a
water heater. Chances are, they have other skills that I'll never have,
such as singing and dancing. .

On Tue, 20 May 2014 23:44:43 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@Guy.com wrote:

wrote:

You can get a natural-gas water heater at Home Despot (Canada)
for about $400 these days.

Mabee the little cheap one. I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon
and it was within a few dollars of $600 including tax.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hotp...000-btu/903008

Hotpoint 40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater - 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU
$373.00 (with tax, about $421 with tax)

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/ge40...000-btu/903005

General Electric
GE40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU
$402.00 (about $454 with tax)

I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon and it was within a few
dollars of $600 including tax.

Which means you paid $530 + tax.

You overpaid. The extra 3 years on the warranty wasn't worth the extra
$150 - $175 up-front that you paid.

They all come out of the same factory.

After 6 years you'd be lucky if they gave you $265 credit on a
replacement.
The vega and the impala came out of the same factory too, and both
were chevies. Was the extra thousand or so for the impala a rip-off?

There ARE differences between the cheapest and the best water heater
of the same brand - and I bought mine, a GE (made by rheem) 3 years
ago. It has the brass drain valve, not plastic, and 2 anodes as well
as the turbulator tube - which the cheep ones did NOT have.

My last one, a 9 yr warrany GSW, lasted well over 20 years ( I
believe it was 24), compared to the contractor installed cheepy that
lasted something like 12 years.

I NEVER buy the cheepest of anything that matters, and seldom the most
expensive. It's called buying for VALUE, not price.

Current cost is $494 at my local Home Despot, plus tax = $558
including HST here in Ontario. So I wasn't very far off saying $600.
The warranty is 50% longer, for a difference in price of $92 - or less
than 25% - and it DOES have the brass valve, double anodes, and the
turbulator tube. It is also 40,000 BTU compared to the cheap one at
36000 for faster recovery.

I'd say I got value for my $92. You don't think so? That's YOUR
problem, not mine.

On Wed, 21 May 2014 08:30:28 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@Guy.com wrote:

wrote:

You would not need a torch to disconnect the gas line from your
water heater.

You shut off the gas valve in the line going to the water heater,
then you take a wrench and unscrew the coupler at the tank gas
inlet.

Assuming the guy who installed it last used threaded unions.
Most just solder everything solid.

BZZZ. Wrong.

I was referring to the WATER connections. Sorry.

The gas inlet is threaded pipe. The water inlet and outlets are also
threaded connections. Nobody makes gas water heaters with that don't
have threaded connections.

But the average plumber, and most DIY installers, cheap out and
thread the connector to the water heater with pipe soldered to the
connector, then solder that pipe right to the water pipes in the
house. Saves them 2 unions at something like $10 each, and saves them
2 solder joints.

And I installed unions in the lines so it is easy to disconnect
next time.

You show me a water tank that has short lengths of raw copper pipes
sticking out of the top. You won't, because you can't.

Didn't say they did. But they don't have unions on them either.

Same goes for the gas inlet. NO TORCH OR WELDING REQUIRED to hook up
the gas line, like BGM (the OP) claims.

You were lucky - I had to replumb both the gas and water.

Even if I did have to rework the iron gas line, it would be a simple
matter of screwing a few short lengths together, a 90-degree elbow or
two. But I don't see why you would have to - unless you wanted to
relocate the new water tank. It should have lined up with existing
pipes as-is.
Different brand of water heater - and 24 years later. New one has
different gas valve and piezo ignitor, about 15 degrees of rotation
from the original in reference to the water pipe connections. About 6
inches difference in height too if memory serves me correctly - and
different diameter - so EVERYTHING had to be modified. No problem - I
had it changed in just over an hour - this wasn't my first prom!!!

On Wed, 21 May 2014 08:33:07 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@Guy.com wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Assuming the guy who installed it last used threaded unions. Most
just solder everything solid.

+1

-1

Show me a natural gas hot water tank made in the last decade or two that
doesn't have threaded connections for water and gas supply.
Thread on a fitting and solder it up - for the water. Instead of
using unions like a smart guy would. As for the gas piping, lots of
guys work back from the water heater so the union is up ar ceiling
hieght - makes it a bugger to make minor changes. My union is about 8
inches from the gas valve.

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 08:30:28 -0400, HomeGuy

Home@Guy.com wrote:



wrote:



You would not need a torch to disconnect the gas line from your

water heater.



You shut off the gas valve in the line going to the water heater,

then you take a wrench and unscrew the coupler at the tank gas

inlet.



Assuming the guy who installed it last used threaded unions.

Most just solder everything solid.



BZZZ. Wrong.



I was referring to the WATER connections. Sorry.


Everybody here, even Homelessguy knows you were talking about
the water connections.





The gas inlet is threaded pipe. The water inlet and outlets are also

threaded connections. Nobody makes gas water heaters with that don't

have threaded connections.



But the average plumber, and most DIY installers, cheap out and

thread the connector to the water heater with pipe soldered to the

connector, then solder that pipe right to the water pipes in the

house. Saves them 2 unions at something like $10 each, and saves them

2 solder joints.


I don't do it to save the unions, the cost of the unions, etc.
I do it because it's faster, easier and less likely to leak.
Unions are just another spot that can leak and don't really offer
much. I avoid them unless they are really necessary and for the
typical WH, they aren't. To get the old one out, you just run the
pipe cutter around the pipe. Get the new one in, use a copper repair
coupling, solder it up. Quick, easy, nothing to leak.







And I installed unions in the lines so it is easy to disconnect

next time.



You show me a water tank that has short lengths of raw copper pipes

sticking out of the top. You won't, because you can't.



Didn't say they did. But they don't have unions on them either.


Homelessguy is clueless. He somehow thinks that only he knows
that WHs have threaded fittings and that fact that they do means they
can just go in, no solder, no unions, no other special fittings.
Just screw the WH right into the rest of the plumbing.... go figure.






Same goes for the gas inlet. NO TORCH OR WELDING REQUIRED to hook up

the gas line, like BGM (the OP) claims.



You were lucky - I had to replumb both the gas and water.



Even if I did have to rework the iron gas line, it would be a simple

matter of screwing a few short lengths together, a 90-degree elbow or

two. But I don't see why you would have to - unless you wanted to

relocate the new water tank. It should have lined up with existing

pipes as-is.

Different brand of water heater - and 24 years later. New one has

different gas valve and piezo ignitor, about 15 degrees of rotation

from the original in reference to the water pipe connections. About 6

inches difference in height too if memory serves me correctly - and

different diameter - so EVERYTHING had to be modified. No problem - I

had it changed in just over an hour - this wasn't my first prom!!!

Exactly. Most times it can be a drop in where everything works out.
But sometimes it's not. It's a big leap to make assumptions without
knowing what the OP has. Or as I said before, how about if he has
a soldered in old shutoff valve that should be replaced? If you have
the skills and the tools, it's easy, but if you don't, another example of
things you can run into. And if you don't have the skills and screw
it up, flood the house, blow it up, is it worth it? Is Homelessguy
going to pay to make it right?

On Wed, 21 May 2014 06:28:25 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

around here lots of people are using the flexible brite yellow gas lines originally designed for gas dryers and gas stoves...
And around here the inspectors do NOT like the stuff. I don't like
the crap either.

On Wed, 21 May 2014 10:17:05 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@Guy.com wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Show me a natural gas hot water tank made in the last decade or
two that doesn't have threaded connections for water and gas supply.

Just because the tank has a threaded connection doesn't say anything
about what it's connected to.

What - do you expect every joint and elbow in the water distribution
lines in house is going to have threaded connections?!

What kind of bone-head are you?

The point of this discussion is that you people are claiming that it's
hard, oh so hard to connect a new hot water tank yourself because you
have to break out the torch and welder, because nobody uses threaded
connections, yet you completely miss the point that the most crucial
location (and really, the ONLY place you need or want to have threaded
connections) is on the friggin device or appliance itself. Why you
would want threaded connections or unions anywhere else makes absolutely
no sense.


Makes no sense? How in blazes do you expect to "unwind" the threaded
fitting, whether it be gas or water, without a union? Or are you one
of those Mensa types that uses compression fittings???
And if you want a threaded joint somewhere in a water pipe where it
currently doesn't exist, you cut the friggen copper pipe and solder one
on. If you can't do that, then what the hell are you doing reading and
posting to this news group? You should be reading rec.crafts.sewing or
baking or similar.

On Wed, 21 May 2014 15:11:04 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Wally W. writes:
On Tue, 20 May 2014 20:38:30 -0400, H wrote:

badgolferman wrote:

My water heater is leaking from the bottom today.
I'd like to know what to expect or any diagnosis you might have.

Capacity 40.0 gal
Natural Gas

I was going to say that the plumber will charge you $1000 installed, but
you could simply drive to Home Despot and pick up a new one and install
it yourself for $300.

A replacement Rheem (appropriately named) unit will cost $897
installed tomorrow.

So I was $100 off.

They're not that heavy you know.

And easy as pie to put in.

I called a few other places and the cost was about the same but
it would take at least a week.

Real men know how to install replacement gas water heaters.

That's what insurance companies like to hear after a house burns down.

A common internet meme ...


They just walk away ... with their check book as full as when they
arrived ... while the code official writes a citation for installing
the unit without a permit.

... that has never happened in real life.
Mabee not NEVER, but it would be a very very rare occurrence..

On Wed, 21 May 2014 10:00:37 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:11:04 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Real men know how to install replacement gas water heaters.



That's what insurance companies like to hear after a house burns down.



A common internet meme ...





They just walk away ... with their check book as full as when they

arrived ... while the code official writes a citation for installing

the unit without a permit.



... that has never happened in real life.

Hold on, there is some truth to it.

While there is no known case of an insurance company latching on to a DIY repair to avoid paying a valid claim,

there are MANY cases of a DIY'er accidentally burning the house down while tackling a repair beyond his level of skill.

Just saying.
Or using a match to find a gas leak - - -

On Wed, 21 May 2014 12:47:31 -0500, Fat-Dumb and Happy
wrote:

On 5/21/2014 7:01 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 7:17:15 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 5/20/2014 10:42 PM, wrote:

You want to fill the tank with

water before turning on the heat.



That should have been one of my Dad's

wise expressions.



--


I'd also recommend putting one of those plastic water catch pans
under the new one, if the old didn't have one. It depends on where
it's located as to how much benefit it is. But even in a basement,
it can be useful. They have an outlet that you can connect a piece of
hose to so that water goes where you want it, ie French drain, sump pump
pit, etc, instead of wherever it would wind up if it leaks on the floor.


Just for the hell of it,
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...seum-home.html
Did you get to the pictures??? I didn't find them.

badgolferman wrote:

badgolferman wrote:

My water heater is leaking from the bottom today. There's a drop
falling every second or two so its failure is probably imminent. I
have called a plumber to come check it out this afternoon. I'd like
to know what to expect or any diagnosis you might have.

Bradford White
Model MI403S6LN12
Capacity 40.0 gal
Input 40,000 btu/hr. Natural Gas


The above unit was made in 1997.

A replacement Rheem (appropriately named) unit will cost $897
installed tomorrow.

I called a few other places and the cost was about the same but it
would take at least a week. I've dealt with these people before and
would rather give them my business since they have always arrived the
same day to diagnose the problem.

The water heater got replaced today. I watched what the guy did and am
glad I didn't attempt it myself. I'm not a klutz with tools and can
fix things, especially electronics or electrical things. I can build
computers and make them work.

After turning off the water to the house and draining the thing, the
two copper water lines at the top had to be cut off even though they
were threaded into the water heater. The gas line was a different pipe
of course, and that got unscrewed. The replacement water heater that
came was a Ruud 50 gallon tall one which was not what we had ordered.
The guy had to go get the 40 gallon version and come back later.

After taking out the old one and putting in the new one, he screwed in
some pre-made copper extensions onto the water lines of the heater
then he had to cut back some of the existing pipe to make everything
match up. More couplings came out to make the proper connections and
he then soldered them all together. Of course he had the torch, flux,
solder, and some sort of pipe dope for the gas fittings that I didn't
have. He also had to resize the gas pipe extensions and reseal all
that a couple of times because of the gas leaking. He also bled the
relief valve to let the air out of the tank -- something I would not
have known to do.

Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these
water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be
without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going
back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was best
to pay the professional to do the job.

badgolferman wrote:

Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these
water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be
without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going
back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was
best to pay the professional to do the job.

I'm glad I learned from my dad to be electrically and mechanically
inclined. I've rebuilt Chrysler Slant/6 and 318 engines, done body work
and welding, designed and built a speech synthesizer board for my IBM PC
back in 1983 - all of that while I was still in high school.

Naturally I've done much more since then. It's hard for me to relate to
men that can't do simply plumbing I guess...

On Wed, 21 May 2014 15:11:04 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Wally W. writes:
On Tue, 20 May 2014 20:38:30 -0400, H wrote:

badgolferman wrote:

My water heater is leaking from the bottom today.
I'd like to know what to expect or any diagnosis you might have.

Capacity 40.0 gal
Natural Gas

I was going to say that the plumber will charge you $1000 installed, but
you could simply drive to Home Despot and pick up a new one and install
it yourself for $300.

A replacement Rheem (appropriately named) unit will cost $897
installed tomorrow.

So I was $100 off.

They're not that heavy you know.

And easy as pie to put in.

I called a few other places and the cost was about the same but
it would take at least a week.

Real men know how to install replacement gas water heaters.

That's what insurance companies like to hear after a house burns down.

A common internet meme ...


They just walk away ... with their check book as full as when they
arrived ... while the code official writes a citation for installing
the unit without a permit.

... that has never happened in real life.

An example from last month:

http://woodtv.com/2014/03/16/house-fire-after-water-heater-explodes/
The fire broke out just after 10 p.m. Saturday
....
He said the family had replaced the water heater Saturday.

"Wally W." wrote:

... that has never happened in real life.

An example from last month:

The fire broke out just after 10 p.m. Saturday
...
He said the family had replaced the water heater Saturday.

Yea, but it doesn't say if they did it themselves, or had a
"professional" do it.

But there's a bigger issue with that story.

Water heaters are supposed to have safety valves.

Even if there were shut-off valves on both the inlet and outlet - and
they were both shut off,

Even if the thermostat fails and calls for continuous heat,

The over-pressure valve is supposed to kick in and prevent a pressure
buildup (and tank explosion).

Also note that it doesn't say if the tank is electric or natural gas.

Exactly.

You can save 75 percent of the cost of maintaining a home by doing all the simple and straight forward stuff yourself. That would include painting and straight forward plumbing, electrical and appliance repairs.

Trying to save that last 25% by doing stuff you don't know how to do without the tools or experience needed to do the job properly is foolish. You just make life miserable for yourself.

If I recall correctly, there were a total of three different slant 6's:
- the 177 cubic inch which was replaced by the 198 cubic inch in 1972, and
- the much more common 225 slant six that was made from the early 1960's to the mid 1980's.

Is that correct?

All of the Chrysler cars I've ever had had 225 slant six's in them. Mechanics seemed to all have a lot of respect for those engines.

HomeGuy wrote:
wrote:

Electric is about half the price of natural gas (up here anyway). So
about $600 for gas if you DIY.

Wrong.

You can get a natural-gas water heater at Home Despot (Canada) for about
$400 these days.

Hi,
What? I was looking at them last long week end. 40 Gal. 12 yr. one was
almost 900.00.

HomeGuy wrote:
wrote:

You can get a natural-gas water heater at Home Despot (Canada)
for about $400 these days.

Mabee the little cheap one. I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon
and it was within a few dollars of $600 including tax.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hotp...000-btu/903008

Hotpoint 40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater - 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU
$373.00 (with tax, about $421 with tax)

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/ge40...000-btu/903005

General Electric
GE40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU
$402.00 (about $454 with tax)

I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon and it was within a few
dollars of $600 including tax.

Which means you paid $530 + tax.

You overpaid. The extra 3 years on the warranty wasn't worth the extra
$150 - $175 up-front that you paid.

They all come out of the same factory.

After 6 years you'd be lucky if they gave you $265 credit on a
replacement.

Hmm,
My Sears 40 gal. 9 year one is going into 13th year now.

wrote:
On Tue, 20 May 2014 23:44:43 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@Guy.com wrote:

wrote:

You can get a natural-gas water heater at Home Despot (Canada)
for about $400 these days.

Mabee the little cheap one. I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon
and it was within a few dollars of $600 including tax.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hotp...000-btu/903008

Hotpoint 40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater - 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU
$373.00 (with tax, about $421 with tax)

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/ge40...000-btu/903005

General Electric
GE40 Gallon Natural Gas Water Heater 6 YR Warranty-36,000 BTU
$402.00 (about $454 with tax)

I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon and it was within a few
dollars of $600 including tax.

Which means you paid $530 + tax.

You overpaid. The extra 3 years on the warranty wasn't worth the extra
$150 - $175 up-front that you paid.

They all come out of the same factory.

After 6 years you'd be lucky if they gave you $265 credit on a
replacement.
The vega and the impala came out of the same factory too, and both
were chevies. Was the extra thousand or so for the impala a rip-off?

There ARE differences between the cheapest and the best water heater
of the same brand - and I bought mine, a GE (made by rheem) 3 years
ago. It has the brass drain valve, not plastic, and 2 anodes as well
as the turbulator tube - which the cheep ones did NOT have.

My last one, a 9 yr warrany GSW, lasted well over 20 years ( I
believe it was 24), compared to the contractor installed cheepy that
lasted something like 12 years.

I NEVER buy the cheepest of anything that matters, and seldom the most
expensive. It's called buying for VALUE, not price.

Current cost is $494 at my local Home Despot, plus tax = $558
including HST here in Ontario. So I wasn't very far off saying $600.
The warranty is 50% longer, for a difference in price of $92 - or less
than 25% - and it DOES have the brass valve, double anodes, and the
turbulator tube. It is also 40,000 BTU compared to the cheap one at
36000 for faster recovery.

I'd say I got value for my $92. You don't think so? That's YOUR
problem, not mine.

Hi,
Well, it seems he knows every thing.... His knowledge is rehashed
from Internet, sounds like.

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:38:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 10:17:05 -0400, HomeGuy

Home@Guy.com wrote:



trader_4 wrote:



Show me a natural gas hot water tank made in the last decade or

two that doesn't have threaded connections for water and gas supply.



Just because the tank has a threaded connection doesn't say anything

about what it's connected to.



What - do you expect every joint and elbow in the water distribution

lines in house is going to have threaded connections?!



What kind of bone-head are you?



The point of this discussion is that you people are claiming that it's

hard, oh so hard to connect a new hot water tank yourself because you

have to break out the torch and welder, because nobody uses threaded

connections, yet you completely miss the point that the most crucial

location (and really, the ONLY place you need or want to have threaded

connections) is on the friggin device or appliance itself. Why you

would want threaded connections or unions anywhere else makes absolutely

no sense.





Makes no sense? How in blazes do you expect to "unwind" the threaded

fitting, whether it be gas or water, without a union? Or are you one

of those Mensa types that uses compression fittings???

You could make the first water connection by turning the WH round
and round. The second one, IDK. And if he's talking about using
a compression type fitting, you'd think he would have said so by now.

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:27:41 PM UTC-4, Wally W. wrote:
On Wed, 21 May 2014 15:11:04 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:



Wally W. writes:

On Tue, 20 May 2014 20:38:30 -0400, H wrote:



badgolferman wrote:



My water heater is leaking from the bottom today.

I'd like to know what to expect or any diagnosis you might have.



Capacity 40.0 gal

Natural Gas



I was going to say that the plumber will charge you $1000 installed, but

you could simply drive to Home Despot and pick up a new one and install

it yourself for $300.



A replacement Rheem (appropriately named) unit will cost $897

installed tomorrow.



So I was $100 off.



They're not that heavy you know.



And easy as pie to put in.



I called a few other places and the cost was about the same but

it would take at least a week.



Real men know how to install replacement gas water heaters.



That's what insurance companies like to hear after a house burns down.



A common internet meme ...





They just walk away ... with their check book as full as when they

arrived ... while the code official writes a citation for installing

the unit without a permit.



... that has never happened in real life.



An example from last month:



http://woodtv.com/2014/03/16/house-fire-after-water-heater-explodes/

The fire broke out just after 10 p.m. Saturday

...

He said the family had replaced the water heater Saturday.

The point Claire was responding to was not that WHs can cause fires.
It was the part about the insurance company denying the claim
for a DIY install that later caused the fire.

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:38:17 PM UTC-4, HomeGuy wrote:
"Wally W." wrote:



... that has never happened in real life.



An example from last month:



The fire broke out just after 10 p.m. Saturday

...

He said the family had replaced the water heater Saturday.



Yea, but it doesn't say if they did it themselves, or had a

"professional" do it.



But there's a bigger issue with that story.



Water heaters are supposed to have safety valves.



Even if there were shut-off valves on both the inlet and outlet - and

they were both shut off,



Even if the thermostat fails and calls for continuous heat,



The over-pressure valve is supposed to kick in and prevent a pressure

buildup (and tank explosion).



Also note that it doesn't say if the tank is electric or natural gas.

I wouldn't take that short story to mean that the tank itself
necessarily blew up. More likely it was gas and that caused the
explosion and fire.

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:56:29 PM UTC-4, badgolferman wrote:
badgolferman wrote:



badgolferman wrote:



My water heater is leaking from the bottom today. There's a drop

falling every second or two so its failure is probably imminent. I

have called a plumber to come check it out this afternoon. I'd like

to know what to expect or any diagnosis you might have.



Bradford White

Model MI403S6LN12

Capacity 40.0 gal

Input 40,000 btu/hr. Natural Gas





The above unit was made in 1997.



A replacement Rheem (appropriately named) unit will cost $897

installed tomorrow.



I called a few other places and the cost was about the same but it

would take at least a week. I've dealt with these people before and

would rather give them my business since they have always arrived the

same day to diagnose the problem.



The water heater got replaced today. I watched what the guy did and am

glad I didn't attempt it myself. I'm not a klutz with tools and can

fix things, especially electronics or electrical things. I can build

computers and make them work.



After turning off the water to the house and draining the thing, the

two copper water lines at the top had to be cut off even though they

were threaded into the water heater. The gas line was a different pipe

of course, and that got unscrewed. The replacement water heater that

came was a Ruud 50 gallon tall one which was not what we had ordered.

The guy had to go get the 40 gallon version and come back later.



After taking out the old one and putting in the new one, he screwed in

some pre-made copper extensions onto the water lines of the heater

then he had to cut back some of the existing pipe to make everything

match up. More couplings came out to make the proper connections and

he then soldered them all together. Of course he had the torch, flux,

solder, and some sort of pipe dope for the gas fittings that I didn't

have. He also had to resize the gas pipe extensions and reseal all

that a couple of times because of the gas leaking. He also bled the

relief valve to let the air out of the tank -- something I would not

have known to do.



Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these

water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be

without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going

back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was best

to pay the professional to do the job.

Good for you and thanks for being so observant. I especially like the
part about the plumber having to redo the gas line to put it in. Exactly
what many of us here were saying, that it's not always just a straight
drop in replacement like the village idiot claims it is.

On 5/22/2014 8:20 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:56:29 PM UTC-4, badgolferman wrote:
badgolferman wrote:


Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these
water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be
without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going
back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was best
to pay the professional to do the job.

Good for you and thanks for being so observant. I especially like the
part about the plumber having to redo the gas line to put it in. Exactly
what many of us here were saying, that it's not always just a straight
drop in replacement like the village idiot claims it is.


I also thank you for the detailed follow up. I may
print that out, and show people who want to DIY.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote:

I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon and it was within a few
dollars of $600 including tax.

Correction:

Current cost is $494 at my local Home Despot, plus tax = $558
including HST here in Ontario. So I wasn't very far off saying
$600.

My last one, a 9 yr warranty GSW, lasted well over 20 years ( I
believe it was 24), compared to the contractor installed cheepy
that lasted something like 12 years.

So even the contractor "cheepy" outlasted the 9-year warranty that your
premium tank offers.

There ARE differences between the cheapest and the best water heater
of the same brand - and I bought mine, a GE (made by rheem) 3 years
ago. It has the brass drain valve, not plastic, and 2 anodes as well
as the turbulator tube - which the cheep ones did NOT have.

When we're talking about warranty and water heater, we're largely
talking about the fact that it's a pressure vessel and it can fail by
leaking. Other small differences (brass or plastic drain, anodes,
turbulators) really don't factor into differences in cost when looking
at 6 yr vs 9 yr warranties.

My heater is a GE "Smart Water" model GG40S06CVG, 36000 btu, plastic
drain, brass hi-pressure vent/valve. I think it has a turbulator. There
isin't much on the web about that model. I'm sure it's 6 years old by
now.

The vega and the impala came out of the same factory too, and
both were chevies. Was the extra thousand or so for the impala
a rip-off?

I'd say I got value for my $92. You don't think so? That's YOUR
problem, not mine.

The diff between 9 yr and 6 yr is inconsequential to me, and so is the
4K difference in BTU, so as far as I'm concerned you paid $92 extra for
a brass drain valve and an extra anode (maybe - have no clue how many I
have).

Would I pay $92 for a brass drain valve and an extra annode? Probably
not.

Would I pay an extra $1000 for dual exhaust, power windows, FM radio
with 8-track and air conditioning in the Impala vs Chevelle? Maybe.

I NEVER buy the cheepest of anything that matters, and seldom
the most expensive. It's called buying for VALUE, not price.

For a stationary object that lives it's life without interaction (or
even visibility) with people and can typically provide service for 10 to
20 years, I dare you to explain how anyone outside of the manufacturing
and service industry can possibly have any idea how to appraise the
VALUE of something like a water heater when browsing the various models
in a retail setting like Home Despot, expecially when elements of it's
construction that have a direct impact on service life (the pressure
vessel itself) is not visible without significant disassembly or
deconstruction of the item.

The warranty is 50% longer, for a difference in price of $92 -
or less than 25%

And it's been well established that these "cheap" heaters can routinely
outlast their minimal 6-year warranty by a factor of 2 or more.

Your $92 is largely to finance the extra 3 years of waranty coverage - a
winning proposition by the manufacturer because I'm sure the statistics
would show that if a unit has lasted 6 years in the field without
failing then the odds of it continuing for an additional 3 years is
extremely high.

Tony Hwang wrote:

Well, it seems he knows every thing.... His knowledge is rehashed
from Internet, sounds like.

After years of consumer experience, you should have learned by now that
selling extra warranty coverage is highly profitable for the
manufacturer or retailer no matter what product we're talking about
(cars, electronics, water heaters, etc).

trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:56:29 PM UTC-4, badgolferman wrote:
badgolferman wrote:



badgolferman wrote:



My water heater is leaking from the bottom today. There's a drop

falling every second or two so its failure is probably imminent. I

have called a plumber to come check it out this afternoon. I'd like

to know what to expect or any diagnosis you might have.



Bradford White

Model MI403S6LN12

Capacity 40.0 gal

Input 40,000 btu/hr. Natural Gas





The above unit was made in 1997.



A replacement Rheem (appropriately named) unit will cost $897

installed tomorrow.



I called a few other places and the cost was about the same but it

would take at least a week. I've dealt with these people before and

would rather give them my business since they have always arrived the

same day to diagnose the problem.



The water heater got replaced today. I watched what the guy did and am

glad I didn't attempt it myself. I'm not a klutz with tools and can

fix things, especially electronics or electrical things. I can build

computers and make them work.



After turning off the water to the house and draining the thing, the

two copper water lines at the top had to be cut off even though they

were threaded into the water heater. The gas line was a different pipe

of course, and that got unscrewed. The replacement water heater that

came was a Ruud 50 gallon tall one which was not what we had ordered.

The guy had to go get the 40 gallon version and come back later.



After taking out the old one and putting in the new one, he screwed in

some pre-made copper extensions onto the water lines of the heater

then he had to cut back some of the existing pipe to make everything

match up. More couplings came out to make the proper connections and

he then soldered them all together. Of course he had the torch, flux,

solder, and some sort of pipe dope for the gas fittings that I didn't

have. He also had to resize the gas pipe extensions and reseal all

that a couple of times because of the gas leaking. He also bled the

relief valve to let the air out of the tank -- something I would not

have known to do.



Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these

water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be

without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going

back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was best

to pay the professional to do the job.

Good for you and thanks for being so observant. I especially like the
part about the plumber having to redo the gas line to put it in. Exactly
what many of us here were saying, that it's not always just a straight
drop in replacement like the village idiot claims it is.

Hi,
I have done all this and that in my younger days and I think I earned it
to relax and take it easy, let some others do it for me(they do it to
make a living) If I do every thing myself they will starve, LOL! Now I
just make sure things are done proper. Is that village idiot da real man?

On Thu, 22 May 2014 00:56:29 +0000 (UTC), "badgolferman"
wrote:

The water heater got replaced today. I watched what the guy did and am
glad I didn't attempt it myself. I'm not a klutz with tools and can
fix things, especially electronics or electrical things. I can build
computers and make them work.

After turning off the water to the house and draining the thing, the
two copper water lines at the top had to be cut off even though they
were threaded into the water heater. The gas line was a different pipe
of course, and that got unscrewed. The replacement water heater that
came was a Ruud 50 gallon tall one which was not what we had ordered.
The guy had to go get the 40 gallon version and come back later.

After taking out the old one and putting in the new one, he screwed in
some pre-made copper extensions onto the water lines of the heater
then he had to cut back some of the existing pipe to make everything
match up. More couplings came out to make the proper connections and
he then soldered them all together. Of course he had the torch, flux,
solder, and some sort of pipe dope for the gas fittings that I didn't
have. He also had to resize the gas pipe extensions and reseal all
that a couple of times because of the gas leaking. He also bled the
relief valve to let the air out of the tank -- something I would not
have known to do.

Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these
water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be
without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going
back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was best
to pay the professional to do the job.

Glad it worked out for you. Care to mention the total cost? Plumbers
seem to make more in some areas v. other areas.

Around here a DIY Handy Dandy can ask $75 just to seat and fasten down
a toilet.

Are sharkbite connections allowed on natural gas lines?

I ask because I have no idea and it seems a little strange, but maybe this is common practice.

On Thu, 22 May 2014 13:27:14 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

Are sharkbite connections allowed on natural gas lines?

Not that I am presently aware of. SB is for Copper, PVC & PEX. Not
used in CPVC or gas lines.

I ask because I have no idea and it seems a little strange, but maybe this is common practice.

Not in my neighborhood.

HomeGuy wrote:

I'm glad I learned from my dad to be electrically and mechanically
inclined.

Too bad he didn't teach you not to be a troll or a generally anti-social
jerk. Those might have been even more useful traits to learn.

It's hard for me to relate to men that can't do simply plumbing I guess...

It's hard for me to relate to men who needlessly insult other men and who
ironically can't even spell "simple" words. It's really kind of pathetic
that you have to keep nym-shifting to force yourself on people that clearly
want nothing to do with you. Sort of like a rapist. )-: Your father would
be so proud. NOT! Too bad, too, because at times you seem like a
reasonably intelligent person. At times.

Badgolferman made the right call for his circumstances. Someday you'll
surprise us all and make an equally correct call about something. Someday .
.. . but no one should hold their breath waiting.

--
Bobby G.

"badgolferman" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The water heater got replaced today. I watched what the guy did and am
glad I didn't attempt it myself. I'm not a klutz with tools and can
fix things, especially electronics or electrical things. I can build
computers and make them work.

Me too. And after building at least 30 PC's I've gotten pretty good at
fixing them and see the value of experience when someone comes to me with a
PC they're tried to fix themselves. But I don't have that same comfort
level with plumbing and gladly will pay someone who does have a lot of
experience to do something like replacing a water heater. Yes, I could
probably do it myself if my life depended on it or if I didn't have the
money to pay a plumber. But that's not my situation.

After turning off the water to the house and draining the thing, the
two copper water lines at the top had to be cut off even though they
were threaded into the water heater. The gas line was a different pipe
of course, and that got unscrewed. The replacement water heater that
came was a Ruud 50 gallon tall one which was not what we had ordered.
The guy had to go get the 40 gallon version and come back later.

You've described why I often buy two of something I consider a critical unit
like the DVR that's at the heart of my TV setup. When it failed, I swapped
the backup unit in in less than 5 minutes. If I had to buy a new one, it
would have involved rewiring, reprogramming all the remotes around the house
that control it via an IR repeater network, etc. It's something I learned
from keeping critical servers on line. You can't have enough identical
spares if you want to minimize downtime and all the futzing that comes from
shoehorning in an "almost identical" replacement.

After taking out the old one and putting in the new one, he screwed in
some pre-made copper extensions onto the water lines of the heater
then he had to cut back some of the existing pipe to make everything
match up. More couplings came out to make the proper connections and
he then soldered them all together. Of course he had the torch, flux,
solder, and some sort of pipe dope for the gas fittings that I didn't
have. He also had to resize the gas pipe extensions and reseal all
that a couple of times because of the gas leaking. He also bled the
relief valve to let the air out of the tank -- something I would not
have known to do.

It sounds like by watching him work, you know you've gotten your money's
worth. Hell, at my age schlepping a 40G water heater around isn't really a
good idea. Might end up costing way more than $1,000 in medical bills and
lost time. (-:

Considering all the tools I didn't have, no truck to transport these
water heaters, no curbside pickup in my town, a family that can't be
without water while I try to figure out what I've done wrong, going
back and forth to the hardware store several times, I think it was best
to pay the professional to do the job.

Yep. Hot water is a mission-critical function. Despite the noise from our
favorite resident troll, I think it's clear you made the right call.

--
Bobby G.

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:39:38 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2014 13:27:14 -0700 (PDT), TimR

wrote:



Are sharkbite connections allowed on natural gas lines?



Not that I am presently aware of.

Not allowed and AFAIK, I wouldn't use them on the water
for the WH either, I'd solder it in like the plumber did.
IMO they are OK for certain repairs, but I wouldn't use
them where you can easily solder it in.




SB is for Copper, PVC & PEX. Not

used in CPVC or gas lines.



I ask because I have no idea and it seems a little strange, but maybe this is common practice.



Not in my neighborhood.

I think he misunderstood Bob's comments:

"use the flexible gas line if needed

use sharkbites with PEX or copper..... "

He meant use the flex for the gas, sb for water.

On Thu, 22 May 2014 09:22:41 -0400, HomeGuy
Home@Guy.com wrote:

wrote:

I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon and it was within a few
dollars of $600 including tax.

Correction:

Current cost is $494 at my local Home Despot, plus tax = $558
including HST here in Ontario. So I wasn't very far off saying
$600.

My last one, a 9 yr warranty GSW, lasted well over 20 years ( I
believe it was 24), compared to the contractor installed cheepy
that lasted something like 12 years.

So even the contractor "cheepy" outlasted the 9-year warranty that your
premium tank offers.

There ARE differences between the cheapest and the best water heater
of the same brand - and I bought mine, a GE (made by rheem) 3 years
ago. It has the brass drain valve, not plastic, and 2 anodes as well
as the turbulator tube - which the cheep ones did NOT have.

When we're talking about warranty and water heater, we're largely
talking about the fact that it's a pressure vessel and it can fail by
leaking. Other small differences (brass or plastic drain, anodes,
turbulators) really don't factor into differences in cost when looking
at 6 yr vs 9 yr warranties.

I don't buy a warranty - I buy a water heater. And any GOOD product
will outlast it's warranty. And any heater with 2 anodes will cost
more than one with 1 or none - a brass valve will cost more than
plastic

My heater is a GE "Smart Water" model GG40S06CVG, 36000 btu, plastic
drain, brass hi-pressure vent/valve. I think it has a turbulator. There
isin't much on the web about that model. I'm sure it's 6 years old by
now.

Will it still be working and not leaking 18 years from now???
Mine very likely will, and it's already 3 years old. Like I said
before - I don't buy a warranty - I buy a quality water heater. The
quality water heater just happens to also have a longer warranty.

The vega and the impala came out of the same factory too, and
both were chevies. Was the extra thousand or so for the impala
a rip-off?

I'd say I got value for my $92. You don't think so? That's YOUR
problem, not mine.

The diff between 9 yr and 6 yr is inconsequential to me, and so is the
4K difference in BTU, so as far as I'm concerned you paid $92 extra for
a brass drain valve and an extra anode (maybe - have no clue how many I
have).

Would I pay $92 for a brass drain valve and an extra annode? Probably
not.

Would I pay an extra $1000 for dual exhaust, power windows, FM radio
with 8-track and air conditioning in the Impala vs Chevelle? Maybe.

I NEVER buy the cheepest of anything that matters, and seldom
the most expensive. It's called buying for VALUE, not price.

For a stationary object that lives it's life without interaction (or
even visibility) with people and can typically provide service for 10 to
20 years, I dare you to explain how anyone outside of the manufacturing
and service industry can possibly have any idea how to appraise the
VALUE of something like a water heater when browsing the various models
in a retail setting like Home Despot, expecially when elements of it's
construction that have a direct impact on service life (the pressure
vessel itself) is not visible without significant disassembly or
deconstruction of the item.

The warranty is 50% longer, for a difference in price of $92 -
or less than 25%

And it's been well established that these "cheap" heaters can routinely
outlast their minimal 6-year warranty by a factor of 2 or more.

Your $92 is largely to finance the extra 3 years of waranty coverage - a
winning proposition by the manufacturer because I'm sure the statistics
would show that if a unit has lasted 6 years in the field without
failing then the odds of it continuing for an additional 3 years is
extremely high.

Tony Hwang wrote:

Well, it seems he knows every thing.... His knowledge is rehashed
from Internet, sounds like.

After years of consumer experience, you should have learned by now that
selling extra warranty coverage is highly profitable for the
manufacturer or retailer no matter what product we're talking about
(cars, electronics, water heaters, etc).

And I didn't buy an "extra warranty"

You are free to buy the cheapest junk you can find. I prefer to buy
quality.

"The bad taste of low quality lasts long after the sweet taste of low
price has faded from the palate."

"It is almost always more expensive to pay too little for something
than to pay too much"

HomeGuy wrote:

There's no substitute for being a man and having confidence I guess.

I fail to understand your hostility and demeaning attitude toward those
who don't have the same skills as you do. Some people can do certain
things and some people can do other things. You will someday realize
how powerless you are and find yourself in need of assistance from
others. This is a good time to learn how to be humble so there will be
people willing to help you.

Oren wrote:

Glad it worked out for you. Care to mention the total cost? Plumbers
seem to make more in some areas v. other areas.

$897. That included same day diagnosis, next day service, expertise,
and prior earned trust.

I live in SE VA. Hampton Roads area.

On Fri, 23 May 2014 01:43:59 +0000 (UTC), "badgolferman"
wrote:

HomeGuy wrote:

There's no substitute for being a man and having confidence I guess.

I fail to understand your hostility and demeaning attitude toward those
who don't have the same skills as you do. Some people can do certain
things and some people can do other things. You will someday realize
how powerless you are and find yourself in need of assistance from
others. This is a good time to learn how to be humble so there will be
people willing to help you.
And if I happen to be very busy with jobs that I do better than
plumbing, I can pay a plumber to do the job and still come out ahead.

HomeGuy wrote:
wrote:

I bought a 9 yr? warranty 40 gallon and it was within a few
dollars of $600 including tax.

Correction:

Current cost is $494 at my local Home Despot, plus tax = $558
including HST here in Ontario. So I wasn't very far off saying
$600.

My last one, a 9 yr warranty GSW, lasted well over 20 years ( I
believe it was 24), compared to the contractor installed cheepy
that lasted something like 12 years.

So even the contractor "cheepy" outlasted the 9-year warranty that
your premium tank offers.

And his premo heater lasted twice as long.


There ARE differences between the cheapest and the best water heater
of the same brand - and I bought mine, a GE (made by rheem) 3 years
ago. It has the brass drain valve, not plastic, and 2 anodes as well
as the turbulator tube - which the cheep ones did NOT have.

Anodes prevent corrosion. When they're gone, the heater corrodes, then leaks.
Brass valves have higher flow than plastic, and continue actually working
longer.

When we're talking about warranty and water heater, we're largely
talking about the fact that it's a pressure vessel and it can fail by
leaking. Other small differences (brass or plastic drain, anodes,
turbulators) really don't factor into differences in cost when looking
at 6 yr vs 9 yr warranties.

My heater is a GE "Smart Water" model GG40S06CVG, 36000 btu, plastic
drain, brass hi-pressure vent/valve. I think it has a turbulator.
There isin't much on the web about that model. I'm sure it's 6 years
old by now.

The vega and the impala came out of the same factory too, and
both were chevies. Was the extra thousand or so for the impala
a rip-off?

I'd say I got value for my $92. You don't think so? That's YOUR
problem, not mine.

The diff between 9 yr and 6 yr is inconsequential to me, and so is the
4K difference in BTU, so as far as I'm concerned you paid $92 extra
for a brass drain valve and an extra anode (maybe - have no clue how
many I have).

Would I pay $92 for a brass drain valve and an extra annode? Probably
not.

But then again, he got twice the life by spending that $92. Sounds like a pretty
good deal to me.

Tony Hwang wrote:
HomeGuy wrote:
wrote:

Electric is about half the price of natural gas (up here anyway). So
about $600 for gas if you DIY.

Wrong.

You can get a natural-gas water heater at Home Despot (Canada) for
about $400 these days.

Hi,
What? I was looking at them last long week end. 40 Gal. 12 yr. one was
almost 900.00.

Was that a modern power vent or direct vent model?

Scott Lurndal wrote:
HomeGuy Home@Guy.com writes:
bob haller wrote:

around here lots of people are using the flexible brite yellow gas
lines originally designed for gas dryers and gas stoves...

Yea - that's something I didn't think of.

Your water heater doesn't move around, shake or vibrate like a
clothes dryer does. The use of a short flexible link to connect a
gas water heater is a much safer application of those flex lines
than any other gas-using consumer device.

Unless you live in earthquake country (most of the continental US can
be subject to earthquakes, albeit rarely).

I would think that a flexible line would be safer in earthquakes.