We live in a six-unit apartment building which is heated by radiators.

The boiler is a commercial, as opposed to residential unit. I understand
these don't last as long as residential systems.

Could anyone share any experience with such boilers?

Ours is nine years old, and already the large copper conduits are showing
signs of corrosion in the joints, suggesting leaks.

Can this be repaired rather than replaced?

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:55:40 PM UTC-4, Ray DELETETHIS wrote:
We live in a six-unit apartment building which is heated by radiators.



The boiler is a commercial, as opposed to residential unit. I understand

these don't last as long as residential systems.



First time I've heard that.




Could anyone share any experience with such boilers?



Ours is nine years old, and already the large copper conduits are showing

signs of corrosion in the joints, suggesting leaks.



I assume by "large copper conduits", you mean copper pipes.
Pipes aren't part of the boiler. It's very likely that what you
think is serious corrosion is just superficial, possibly left over from
the flux when they were soldered, etc.



Can this be repaired rather than replaced?

Without knowing more about what exactly the real problem is,
can't say. Some pics would sure help. It's quite possible that
nothing is wrong at all. But if it's an apartment
and you're renting, why do you care? If the heat works, and there
are no actual leaks, what's the real issue?

Ray:
A cast iron sectional boiler will last longer than grandma.

Here in Winnipeg, it's common to see hot water heating systems with boilers that are 100 years old, althoug back then steam heat was more popular back then, and that's the only reason there aren't more 100 year old hot water heating boilers.

What you need to do is strive not to add new water to the heating system. That's because any new water you add with have dissolved oxygen and hardness ions in it. The hardness ions form scale in the hottest part of the heating system, which is the boiler. And, dissolved oxygen goes to form rust in the hottest part of the heating system, and that's in the boiler too.

So, while it's common to have to drain a heating system down in order to do repairs, if you wuz a plumber, you would collect that heating water in 5 gallon pails, and then siphon that same oxygen depleted and ionically dead water back into your heating system after the repairs have been completed.

That would typically be done by setting a chair beside the highest air vent in the heating system. Remove the air vent and screw in a small 1/8 inch ball valve, and then screw your air vent into the ball valve. That way, you can remove the air vent and screw in a 1/8 inch NPT to 1/4 inch diameter hose barb fitting and siphon the old water back into the heating system with 1/4 inch vinyl hose. It'd also be good to have a secone 1/8" ball valve on another air vent to allow the air trapped in the heating system to escape as the system fills with water.

If anyone tells you you need to start treating your water with chemicals and stuff, ignore them. All you need is water that doesn't have any dissolved oxygen or hardness ions in it, and you therefore cannot possibly have scale or rust forming in your heating system because those things form from oxygen and hardness ions.

Also, there really isn't such a thing as a "commercial" boiler as opposed to a "residential" boiler. There are boilers of various sizes, and you install the size of boiler you need. If you've got a very big house, you install a big boiler that would normally be considered "commercial". If you've got a very small apartment block, you install a small boiler that would normally be considered "residential". Typically, larger boilers are called "commercial" only because it's seldom that a boiler of that size is needed for residential purposes. Similarily, residential boilers are typically small boilers that would be used for houses.

Nine years is a young boiler.

The large copper conduits showing signs of corrosion in the joints is almost certainly old soldering flux that was never cleaned off the joints. Take some warm water and a rag and clean that corrosion off the copper piping and you're good for another 75 years.

The ONLY problem with a hot water heating system is that it doesn't lend itself to climate controllability the way a forced air system does. With a forced air heating system, you can install a humidifier and a dehumidifier in the air stream to raise and lower the humidity in the builerin, you can install an electronic air cleaner to remove all the allergens from the air in the building, you can install an air conditioning coil in the air stream to cool the building in summer. You can't do any of those things with a hot water heating system, but a properly maintained hot water heating boiler will last ten times longer than a forced air furnace.

Ray:

I've been dealing with boilers both in my own apartment block (21 units) and in my father's building (two offices, two apartments) for well over 25 years now. And, someone is telling you BS.

A cast iron sectional boiler will last longer than grandma.

Here in Winnipeg, it's common to see hot water heating systems with boilers that are 100+ years old, although back then steam heat was more popular, and that's the only reason there aren't more 100 year old hot water heating boilers.

What you need to do is strive not to add new water to the heating system. That's because any new water you add with have dissolved oxygen and hardness ions in it. The hardness ions form scale in the hottest part of the heating system, which is the boiler. And, dissolved oxygen forms rust in the hottest part of the heating system, and that's in the boiler too. So, by minimizing the amount of new water you add to the heating system as the result of repairs, you maximize the lifespan of your boiler.

So, while it's common to have to drain a heating system down in order to do repairs, if you wuz a plumber, you would collect that heating water in 5 gallon pails, and then siphon that same oxygen depleted and ionically dead water back into your heating system after the repairs have been completed. No plumber is ever going to do that because you're paying him $90 per hour. So, he just opens the water bypass valve on the pressure reducing valve and fills up the system with new oxygen rich water.

The way you would salvage the old water would be to drain the heating system down as much as you need to by collecting water in a 5 gallon pails. Then, after the repair is completed, you siphon the water right back into the heating system. That would typically be done by setting a chair beside the highest elevation air vent in the heating system. Remove the air vent and screw in a small 1/8 inch ball valve, and then screw your air vent into the ball valve. That way, whenever you want to put the old water back in, you can remove the air vent and screw in a 1/8 inch NPT to 1/4 inch diameter hose barb fitting and siphon the old water back into the heating system with 1/4 inch vinyl hose. And, you can stop the syphon at any time by just closing the 1/8 inch NPT threaded ball valve. It'd also be good to have a second 1/8" ball valve on another air vent to allow the air trapped in the heating system to escape as the system fills with water.

If anyone tells you that you need to start treating your water with chemicals and stuff, ignore them. All you need is water that doesn't have any dissolved oxygen or hardness ions in it, and you therefore cannot possibly have scale or rust forming in your heating system because those things form from oxygen and hardness ions. If you don't have oxygen or hardness ions in the water you put in your boiler, you cannot possibly have any more rust or scale in your boiler than you have already.

Also, there really isn't such a thing as a "commercial" boiler as opposed to a "residential" boiler. There are boilers of various sizes, and you install the size of boiler you need. If you've got a very big house, you install a big boiler that would normally be considered "commercial". If you've got a very small apartment block, you install a small boiler that would normally be considered "residential". Typically, larger boilers are called "commercial" only because it's seldom that a boiler of that size is needed for residential purposes. Similarily, residential boilers are typically small boilers that would be used for houses. They're all made to the same quality standards, so if someone tells you that "commercial" boilers don't last as long, they're wanting you to sell your building.

I believe you misunderstood what you were told about commercial boilers.
Commercial WATER HEATERS don't last as long as residential water heaters because commercial water heaters have a relatively small tank and a large heat exchanger whereas residential water heaters have a comparitively large tank and a small heat exchanger in them. In my apartment block I used to use A. O. Smith BT251 hot water heaters, and I'd be lucky if they lasted me 7 years. But, that BT251 water heater only had a 60 gallon tank, but a 251,000 BTU/hr heat exchanger. So, it would produce hot water on the fly in the mornings when 21 tenants were all getting up and having baths and showers. 7 years is nothing for a residential water heater, especially an electric residential water heater. Note that water heaters are NOT boilers. A water heater heats the water you drink, bathe in and use for washing dishes and other cleaning tasks. A boiler heats the water that heats the building in winter.

Nine years is an older forced air furnace but a very young hot water boiler.

The large copper conduits showing signs of corrosion in the joints is almost certainly old soldering flux that was never cleaned off the joints properly. This stuff is nearly harmless to your heating system. Take some mineral spirits or paint thinner and a rag and clean that corrosion off the copper piping and you're good for another 75 years.

The ONLY problem with hot water heating systems is that it don't lend themselves as well to climate controllability as well as forced air systems do. With a forced air heating system, you can install a humidifier and/or a dehumidifier in the air stream to raise and lower the humidity in the building, you can install an electronic air cleaner to remove all the allergens from the air in the building, you can install an air conditioning coil in the air stream to cool the building in summer. You can't do any of those things with a hot water heating system, and so you can't control the climate in the building nearly as well as you could with a forced air heating system. But, hot water heating systems lend themselves especially well to "zoning", which allows each apartment to have it's own thermostat so that every tenant can control their own heat. Zone valves for forced air heating systems just don't work worth a crap because even when the valve is wide open, it still imparts excessive resistance to air flow. Also, the main reason why apartment buildings normally have hot water heating systems is because of the zoning (so that each tenant can control their own heat) and the fact that a cast iron boiler will last 10 times as long as a furnace.

On 5/7/2014 5:55 PM, Ray wrote:
We live in a six-unit apartment building which is heated by radiators.

The boiler is a commercial, as opposed to residential unit. I understand
these don't last as long as residential systems.

Could anyone share any experience with such boilers?

Ours is nine years old, and already the large copper conduits are
showing signs of corrosion in the joints, suggesting leaks.

Can this be repaired rather than replaced?

It should last much longer than 9 years. Maybe 50 or so with care. The
copper pipes are not part of the boiler but are just the feed or outlet.
They often show some corrosion at fluxed joints. Try cleaning the joints.

You don't say what type of boiler so I can't give specifics. Most can
be repaired by re-tubing or replacing sections.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:55:40 PM UTC-4, Ray DELETETHIS wrote:
We live in a six-unit apartment building which is heated by radiators.



The boiler is a commercial, as opposed to residential unit. I understand

these don't last as long as residential systems.



First time I've heard that.




Could anyone share any experience with such boilers?



Ours is nine years old, and already the large copper conduits are showing

signs of corrosion in the joints, suggesting leaks.



I assume by "large copper conduits", you mean copper pipes.
Pipes aren't part of the boiler. It's very likely that what you
think is serious corrosion is just superficial, possibly left over from
the flux when they were soldered, etc.



Can this be repaired rather than replaced?

Without knowing more about what exactly the real problem is,
can't say. Some pics would sure help. It's quite possible that
nothing is wrong at all. But if it's an apartment
and you're renting, why do you care? If the heat works, and there
are no actual leaks, what's the real issue?

=============

Sorry, I should have said coop building, not apartment. We own it. Thanks
for the information.

Thanks so much for your detailed reply. It's helpful and reassuring.

You mention not introducing new water. We're told we should "draw down" the
boiler once a week, which we've done for about 10 years. This involves
flushing water out for about 20 seconds.

Is that "introducing new water"?

By the way, I should have said we're in a coop building, not apartment. We
own it.

Thanks again, Ray

=======================

"nestork" wrote in message ...


'Ray[_15_ Wrote:
;3232966']We live in a six-unit apartment building which is heated by
radiators.

The boiler is a commercial, as opposed to residential unit. I understand

these don't last as long as residential systems.

Could anyone share any experience with such boilers?

Ours is nine years old, and already the large copper conduits are
showing
signs of corrosion in the joints, suggesting leaks.

Can this be repaired rather than replaced?

Ray:

I've been dealing with boilers both in my own apartment block (21 units)
and in my father's building (two offices, two apartments) for well over
25 years now. And, someone is telling you BS.

A cast iron sectional boiler will last longer than grandma.

Here in Winnipeg, it's common to see hot water heating systems with
boilers that are 100+ years old, although back then steam heat was more
popular, and that's the only reason there aren't more 100 year old hot
water heating boilers.

What you need to do is strive not to add new water to the heating
system. That's because any new water you add with have dissolved oxygen
and hardness ions in it. The hardness ions form scale in the hottest
part of the heating system, which is the boiler. And, dissolved oxygen
forms rust in the hottest part of the heating system, and that's in the
boiler too. So, by minimizing the amount of new water you add to the
heating system as the result of repairs, you maximize the lifespan of
your boiler.

So, while it's common to have to drain a heating system down in order to
do repairs, if you wuz a plumber, you would collect that heating water
in 5 gallon pails, and then siphon that same oxygen depleted and
ionically dead water back into your heating system after the repairs
have been completed. No plumber is ever going to do that because you're
paying him $90 per hour. So, he just opens the water bypass valve on
the pressure reducing valve and fills up the system with new oxygen rich
water.

The way you would salvage the old water would be to drain the heating
system down as much as you need to by collecting water in a 5 gallon
pails. Then, after the repair is completed, you siphon the water right
back into the heating system. That would typically be done by setting a
chair beside the highest elevation air vent in the heating system.
Remove the air vent and screw in a small 1/8 inch ball valve, and then
screw your air vent into the ball valve. That way, whenever you want to
put the old water back in, you can remove the air vent and screw in a
1/8 inch NPT to 1/4 inch diameter hose barb fitting and siphon the old
water back into the heating system with 1/4 inch vinyl hose. And, you
can stop the syphon at any time by just closing the 1/8 inch NPT
threaded ball valve. It'd also be good to have a second 1/8" ball valve
on another air vent to allow the air trapped in the heating system to
escape as the system fills with water.

If anyone tells you that you need to start treating your water with
chemicals and stuff, ignore them. All you need is water that doesn't
have any dissolved oxygen or hardness ions in it, and you therefore
cannot possibly have scale or rust forming in your heating system
because those things form from oxygen and hardness ions. If you don't
have oxygen or hardness ions in the water you put in your boiler, you
cannot possibly have any more rust or scale in your boiler than you have
already.

Also, there really isn't such a thing as a "commercial" boiler as
opposed to a "residential" boiler. There are boilers of various sizes,
and you install the size of boiler you need. If you've got a very big
house, you install a big boiler that would normally be considered
"commercial". If you've got a very small apartment block, you install a
small boiler that would normally be considered "residential".
Typically, larger boilers are called "commercial" only because it's
seldom that a boiler of that size is needed for residential purposes.
Similarily, residential boilers are typically small boilers that would
be used for houses. They're all made to the same quality standards, so
if someone tells you that "commercial" boilers don't last as long,
they're wanting you to sell your building.

I believe you misunderstood what you were told about commercial
boilers.
Commercial WATER HEATERS don't last as long as residential water heaters
because commercial water heaters have a relatively small tank and a
large heat exchanger whereas residential water heaters have a
comparitively large tank and a small heat exchanger in them. In my
apartment block I used to use A. O. Smith BT251 hot water heaters, and
I'd be lucky if they lasted me 7 years. But, that BT251 water heater
only had a 60 gallon tank, but a 251,000 BTU/hr heat exchanger. So, it
would produce hot water on the fly in the mornings when 21 tenants were
all getting up and having baths and showers. 7 years is nothing for a
residential water heater, especially an electric residential water
heater. Note that water heaters are NOT boilers. A water heater heats
the water you drink, bathe in and use for washing dishes and other
cleaning tasks. A boiler heats the water that heats the building in
winter.

Nine years is an older forced air furnace but a very young hot water
boiler.

The large copper conduits showing signs of corrosion in the joints is
almost certainly old soldering flux that was never cleaned off the
joints properly. This stuff is nearly harmless to your heating system.
Take some mineral spirits or paint thinner and a rag and clean that
corrosion off the copper piping and you're good for another 75 years.

The ONLY problem with hot water heating systems is that it don't lend
themselves as well to climate controllability as well as forced air
systems do. With a forced air heating system, you can install a
humidifier and/or a dehumidifier in the air stream to raise and lower
the humidity in the building, you can install an electronic air cleaner
to remove all the allergens from the air in the building, you can
install an air conditioning coil in the air stream to cool the building
in summer. You can't do any of those things with a hot water heating
system, and so you can't control the climate in the building nearly as
well as you could with a forced air heating system. But, hot water
heating systems lend themselves especially well to "zoning", which
allows each apartment to have it's own thermostat so that every tenant
can control their own heat. Zone valves for forced air heating systems
just don't work worth a crap because even when the valve is wide open,
it still imparts excessive resistance to air flow. Also, the main
reason why apartment buildings normally have hot water heating systems
is because of the zoning (so that each tenant can control their own
heat) and the fact that a cast iron boiler will last 10 times as long as
a furnace.




--
nestork

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 8:06:58 AM UTC-4, Ray DELETETHIS wrote:
Thanks so much for your detailed reply. It's helpful and reassuring.



You mention not introducing new water. We're told we should "draw down" the

boiler once a week, which we've done for about 10 years. This involves

flushing water out for about 20 seconds.


You do have to "blow down" a steam boiler. But a hot water one? Not, in my opinion, unless I'm missing something.

I agree with being careful not to add more water than necessary. That means fixing leaks promptly and having a meter on your makeup valve. I don't see the value in recovering water after a repair, but don't drain more than necessary. You should probably get a water test occasionally to see how corrosive your water is becoming. Some areas may require a water softener and/or a sand filter in the system. Or do like the navy does and fill with distilled.

Ray,

Does the co-op pay someone to inspect the heating plant, clean, and
adjust it every few years? What does he think of this corrosion? Is there a
building super?

Dave M.