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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
This story illustrates just how awkward and stressful some jobs can be.
Called out to a customer who I have worked for before. Pott. Puma 80e combi with symptom no heating upstairs. So I obtain a diverter valve actuator as these are invariably the root of many of the problems with this model. Arrive: house warm downstairs, cold up stairs and in loft conversion. Fill kettle as there wont be any water when when the boiler is in bits. Pressure is 1 bar (a bit low but not desperate). Low pressure warning light is off. Boiler is working and does HW mode fine (for a half scaled up 24kW job). So turn off, add drain hose, drain point undoes but does not produce, which is normal. Customer very impressed when I put tray underneath drain point, don rubber gloves, wiggle jumper in drain point, catch jumper, put thumb over gushing hot hole, replace jumper and secure in place before the tray is 1/2 full. The rubber gloves give you a few seconds to work with the hot water. Water stops coming out of hose, but pressure still at 1 bar, uh? OK gauge is faulty? tap gauge, tap gauge harder (with pin hammer!) , gauge moves to zero in half a dozen jumps. Gauge buggered so refilling will be a matter of guess work. Dismantle, remove actuator housing, actuator seems built in on this unit. I'm 100% certain that the actuator was easily removed, like it just falls out, when I have done battle with these *******s before. Anyway after spending about 15 minutes trying to see if I can open the housing, and failing, I try the alternative approach maybe the actuator is OK. I would not have had any difficulty if I'd gone and got the £80+VAT entire diverter valve and simply canabalised it for the actuator housing complete. Clean up the unit and drop new and old ones into my tea mug, add hot water from kettle, both grow, although the old one is not so good. The gubbins of the diverter valve all seem reasonably free so I put it all back together. I am now the proud owner of a new actuator widget (£25) which will mean that I'll never have to fix another Puma, ever. Unless like on this unit the actuator is unreplaceable. Water back on, close drain point, check auto air bleed unit is OK (amazingly it is), begin refilling and tapping the gauge (with the hammer) till I have 1 bar +/- 0.3 bar (which is what the gauge jumps up or down each time it's hit). At this point I notice that the boiler is leaking from at least 1) Flow isolator - i deliberately did not touch it. 2) Return isolator - as above. 3) Flow NTC sensor. 4) Return NTC sensor. 5) The joint holding the PRV. Light bulb moment. The real fault was not a lack of primary flow but lack of primary water. Also the gauge is F****d and low pressure switch has failed in the OK state. That's TWO faults simultaneously - that defies Clarke's dictum which says there is only one fault unless you add another one whilst fixing the first one. So _all_ I've got to do is fix the leaks, refill, bleed and collect the rent. OK. none of the above leaks are really serious so leak sealer is called for. get tub from van. Also the NTCs are really easy to fix as they are screwed connections with a flange, so any of tape, string, gunge, liquid PTFE, a fibre washer or a small O-ring would work. So I fixed them. The isolators were inaccessible as far as replacement was concerned. You can't syphon neat leak sealer it's too viscous. Find that the customer has a nice empty 2 litre plastic milk bottle to hand. Wash out dregs. add leak sealer and dilute, syphon into a radiator (which I switched off at both ends? - a good move as it turned out). OK. Refill. to about 1 bar give or take. It's now quieter than earlier all the kids have gone to a neighbours house which is warmer, I can hear hissing. OK it sounds like it might be coming for the PRV, check outside the water's ****ing out. Search van for replacement - I have one! generic 3 bar PRV with two 1/2" female iron connections. The Potty unit is 1/2" on the outlet but the inlet (after some abortive tries to remove it) is in fact held by a pair of grub screws (and presumably an O-ring). get right hex key from van, it's a good fit on the grub screw but only if I use one of the imperial sizes (?!), bend key 30 degrees, it's going to break if I try anymore, try tightening it a little first, no joy. Anyway even if I got it out the inlet connection might have been all of a piece with the valve so I'd be shafted. Think how am I going to explain that there is no way I can fit a new boiler before Christmas. Light bulb moment II. Add my generic PRV downstream of the broken one. Now of course the existing discharge pipe must be abandoned. Remember that was one of the things that one of the "house of horrors" cowboys was done for - leaving the discharge pipe disconnected when installed a new boiler. But there again, needs must, at 4pm. Decide that the customer would rather have a tiny chance of scolding water over their kitchen worktop than the certainty of Xmas dinner wearing their overcoats. Comfort myself that a real cowboy would simply have plugged the PRV outlet with a 1/2" plug allowing a tiny chance of an exploding boiler during the Queen's speech. Refill ( tapping gauge as I go) water coming out of the various leaks I couldn't fix. OK time for some heat then open the rad containing the sealer and then fill all the rads with water instead of air. Can't do my usual trick of putting things up to 2 bar and then bleeding as this will just make the leaks into a flood and stop the sealer working. OK Electric ON, pump starts, much air is moving around but things settle down. Switch on heating. Nothing, fan starts, but no ignition, no gas. The fan and APS relays can be seen strutting their stuff but no spark & no gas. Extreme frustration is too mild a term. You remember "Das Boot" they fix the whole bloody U-boat and escape from the sea bed against improbable odds only to return to their home port and be gunned down. Try reseating every connector, no joy. Check all controls and switches. Am expecting to be killed by customer (6'3"), he'd have every right, I go into a house that has HW and ground floor heating and leave them with nothing. Recall that a couple of years ago I did battle with a Puma and had this problem, it simply started up after about 10 minutes of agonising, no reason why it stopped and none why it started again. So decide the best course of action is to clean up and tidy up. After about 10 minutes it started without explanation. Heat. 10 minutes later the house is warming up. The leaks have stopped the pressure has been left at 2 bar. New boiler (not a Potterton) scheduled for mid Jan. I feel years older than I did at the start. I am coming to the conclusion that the key skill for 'plumbing' is not, "the knowledge", strength of grip or a van full of "bits" but FORTITUDE. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#2
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
Ed Sirett wrote:
BIG SNIP I feel years older than I did at the start. I am coming to the conclusion that the key skill for 'plumbing' is not, "the knowledge", strength of grip or a van full of "bits" but FORTITUDE. Thanks for that Ed. Not just me then! I don't touch boilers, not being a Corgi guy, but plumbing in general can drive you completely mad! Persistence & determination are omnipotent! -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#3
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
On 20 Dec, 23:43, Ed Sirett snip tale of woes
I feel years older than I did at the start. I am coming to the conclusion that the key skill for 'plumbing' is not, "the knowledge", strength of grip or a van full of "bits" but FORTITUDE. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is athttp://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ *http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQhttp://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQhttp://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Agreed - having been in the electronics repair industry - sometimes it's not what you know, but how many different ways you have of applying it! Phil. |
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
In article , Ed Sirett
writes This story illustrates just how awkward and stressful some jobs can be. Called out to a customer who I have worked for before. Pott. Puma 80e combi with symptom no heating upstairs. So I obtain a diverter valve actuator as these are invariably the root of many of the problems with this model. Arrive: house warm downstairs, cold up stairs and in loft conversion. snip tale of huge effort way beyond the call of duty You are waaaaay too nice/helpful ;-) -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#5
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:26:15 +0000, Paul Matthews wrote:
Ed Sirett wrote: Light bulb moment. The real fault was not a lack of primary flow but lack of primary water. Also the gauge is F****d and low pressure switch has failed in the OK state. That's TWO faults simultaneously - that defies Clarke's dictum which says there is only one fault unless you add another one whilst fixing the first one. I find that often there are many faults, and it is only when something actually stops that people notice there is something wrong. I then go theough and find and rectify each issue one after the other.., Indeed so. But to fully fix this boiler I would have had to come back another day with the return/pump inlet manifold and PRV assembly (assuming that such a part was available). At the end of it they would have had old Puma. This was a classic example of what I said in the Boiler Choice FAQ. A better boiler not only has cheaper and more reliable spares but it is also more repairable. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#6
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
Phil wrote:
On 20 Dec, 23:43, Ed Sirett snip tale of woes I feel years older than I did at the start. I am coming to the conclusion that the key skill for 'plumbing' is not, "the knowledge", strength of grip or a van full of "bits" but FORTITUDE. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is athttp://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ �http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQhttp://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQhttp://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html Agreed - having been in the electronics repair industry - sometimes it's not what you know, but how many different ways you have of applying it! Indeed. Algorithmic approaches to problem solving. Eliminating issues with a faith that what worked once, will work gain if only the right defective bit can be replaced correctly. The skill is in shortening that process down so its the first or second, not the 50th or 60th bit, you replace. And nothing beats experience at that..the time we wondered into Unipart with a MAXI gearbox casing, and the man saw us come in, didn't wait to speak to us,. vanished, and reappeared two minutes later with three parts "you need those: The casing you will have to get from a scrapyard, Do fit the locking washer. I bet you didn't find one in there, did you? There you go. That's WHY its like that..". I remember another ]occasion 'why do you have in particular a camshaft fror a 2 liter Ford engine up there on display" "Because that's the thing most people come into us aksing for" BUt to GET the expereience, takes the right ATTITUDE. Instead of 'Gearbox is leaking oil: sell the car" its 'well it didn't used to, so let's take it apart and find out why...' Phil. |
#7
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
Paul Matthews wrote:
Ed Sirett wrote: Light bulb moment. The real fault was not a lack of primary flow but lack of primary water. Also the gauge is F****d and low pressure switch has failed in the OK state. That's TWO faults simultaneously - that defies Clarke's dictum which says there is only one fault unless you add another one whilst fixing the first one. I find that often there are many faults, and it is only when something actually stops that people notice there is something wrong. I then go theough and find and rectify each issue one after the other.., Absolutely my experience of car mechanics as well. 'The brakes are pulling a bit' translates to "I've got a car with worn disks,no pads at all left, and a pair of corroded brake pipes and a couople of leaking cylinders, and someone's whacked the kerb which has bent a wheel and buggered up the lower wishbone and pulled the rack sideways, and the suspension bushes have a fair amount of slop in them as well." Later on I bought an old Jaguar XJS..it always felt a bit squirelly in the corners..and was prone to high oil consumption..But I dutifully got it MOTed after a year,. and serviced, and nothing was said..the next MOT came and I took it somewhere else..'You have a totally wrecked kingpin: This car has been in a major smash I reckon'. Not with me it hadn't. But I went over, and sure enough the suspension adjustment to get the wheel straight was totally all up one end, and the kingpin was ****ed. "Ive had it two years and it passed an MOT like that" I dont think they believed me. A year later it blew a radiator hose in a big way, and I managed to limp it back filling with water every garage to another guy who had done a good job on an oil leak. "well your radiator is blocked. Looks like its been filled with some sealant gunk. We always flush radiators when we do cooling problems. Yours is shagged, sir" We recored it, and the oil consumption dropped ny 70%. The car, I decided, *had* been in a major smash, and had just been repaired enough to sell. It WAS cheap. Sadly it eventually rusted. The cost of the repairs I had done was less than the difference between the asking price and the normal resale value. Odd ain't it? On the other hand, it gavew me one of the worst headaches I have ever had tracing one faulty. A fuse kept blowing. I looked at the circuit diagram. identified the wires, and removed everything off the far end. Still a dead short. I checked against the chassis - unhooked the chassis connections. Still a dead short No earthing on either wire...I dismantled half the car and still could not find the problem. I looked at te curcuit diagfram ahgain. Ther weas a su[rressor diode shown. Perhaps that was it. I dismatlded evebnmore dashboard and transmission tunnel. No joy. In deperation I phoned an autoelectyrician 'can yiou hget it over here? Well with no power brakes (that was what had blown) and the dashboard hanging off and the gearbox exposed along with half the propshaft, the answer was 'I'll try' He spent 4 hours, replaced the diode (up somewhere behind a bit of dahsboard I hadn't removed IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WIRING LOOM) and bingo! Back in action. Had he ever known that diode to go 'No, never: didn't know it existed, no idea what it does' No amount of expoereince would have helped that one, and apart from the ability to read a circuit diagram and the basic idea that it is JUST possible for a diode to blow short circuit rather then open circuit, nothing more than a ruthless dedication to 'eliminating the impossible, till whatever is left must be the truth' was sufficient. Nowe rthe inlaws have presented me with a Mira Realm gold plated shower mixer. 'Plumber says its £500 for a new one: Can it be fixed". Quick google showed parts are available so 'yes. but don't hold your breath' If I charged my time it would be £800 probably...still I have more time than they have money.. |
#8
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
In article , says...
No amount of expoereince would have helped that one, and apart from the ability to read a circuit diagram and the basic idea that it is JUST possible for a diode to blow short circuit rather then open circuit, nothing more than a ruthless dedication to 'eliminating the impossible, till whatever is left must be the truth' was sufficient. A friend had her clutch replaced, followed by the indicators blowing a fuse each time you used them. Without a circuit diagram I was stuck - walked to the library and within two minutes found that the reversing lights are on the same circuit. Ah - easy then, the reversing switch wire was caught in the bellhousing. And so it was. Without the diagram though, I could have struggled for ages. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
#9
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
In article , says...
And nothing beats experience at that..the time we wondered into Unipart with a MAXI gearbox casing, and the man saw us come in, didn't wait to speak to us,. vanished, and reappeared two minutes later with three parts "you need those: The casing you will have to get from a scrapyard, Do fit the locking washer. I bet you didn't find one in there, did you? There you go. That's WHY its like that..". Yeah, same gearbox on the Allegro - mine let go on the roundabout where the M26 crosses the A20. Lucky I could still run the engine or I'd have frozen being towed back to Harrow. -- Skipweasel. Never knowingly understood. |
#10
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
Skipweasel wrote:
In article , says... No amount of expoereince would have helped that one, and apart from the ability to read a circuit diagram and the basic idea that it is JUST possible for a diode to blow short circuit rather then open circuit, nothing more than a ruthless dedication to 'eliminating the impossible, till whatever is left must be the truth' was sufficient. A friend had her clutch replaced, followed by the indicators blowing a fuse each time you used them. Without a circuit diagram I was stuck - walked to the library and within two minutes found that the reversing lights are on the same circuit. Ah - easy then, the reversing switch wire was caught in the bellhousing. And so it was. Without the diagram though, I could have struggled for ages. Clutches on Maxis and Allegros - don't start me! I had 4 Maxis - loved the space and concept - but mechanical problems? I could change the clutch and bellhousing oil seal at the side of the road in 45 mins. as a result of too frequent practising! Haven't seen an example of either on the road for many a year! |
#11
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
"clot" wrote in message news Skipweasel wrote: In article , says... No amount of expoereince would have helped that one, and apart from the ability to read a circuit diagram and the basic idea that it is JUST possible for a diode to blow short circuit rather then open circuit, nothing more than a ruthless dedication to 'eliminating the impossible, till whatever is left must be the truth' was sufficient. A friend had her clutch replaced, followed by the indicators blowing a fuse each time you used them. Without a circuit diagram I was stuck - walked to the library and within two minutes found that the reversing lights are on the same circuit. Ah - easy then, the reversing switch wire was caught in the bellhousing. And so it was. Without the diagram though, I could have struggled for ages. Clutches on Maxis and Allegros - don't start me! I had 4 Maxis - loved the space and concept - but mechanical problems? I could change the clutch and bellhousing oil seal at the side of the road in 45 mins. as a result of too frequent practising! Haven't seen an example of either on the road for many a year! In the running for the world's most ugly cars together with the Austin 1800. Boy BMC had some stylists in those days. Then they blamed unions for going out of business. |
#12
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Just how dificult can fixing a boiler be (long)?
"fred" wrote in message ... In article , Ed Sirett writes This story illustrates just how awkward and stressful some jobs can be. Called out to a customer who I have worked for before. Pott. Puma 80e combi with symptom no heating upstairs. So I obtain a diverter valve actuator as these are invariably the root of many of the problems with this model. Arrive: house warm downstairs, cold up stairs and in loft conversion. snip tale of huge effort way beyond the call of duty It wasn't beyond the call of duty, as he was supposed to fix it...and he did. |
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