On Tue, 06 May 2014 16:15:39 -0700, Oren wrote:

...invest in a little GIANT, Big John 1/4 HP, submersible sump pump.
Mine gets me down to 2 inches of water and shuts off - nothing to
worry about. 25' power cord connected to a garden hose. Water the
trees

Hi Oren,
Here is a picture of my multitude of pumps, all of which stink:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5466/...13d4a257_b.jpg

The Craftsman pump is a half horsepower non submersible, while the
other three pumps are submersibles.

The problem is that they stink, in many ways.
They get clogged. They leak. The Craftsman pump needs to be
primed and it loses its prime all the time. The connections
are puny and prone to leak. etc.

I've pretty much given up on the portable pumps. Sigh.

On Tue, 06 May 2014 17:13:08 -0700, Oren wrote:

The "submersible pump" I mention is safe. Drop it in the pool and pump
the water out. It is sealed, double insulated. If it did leak it
would trip my GFCI. Never try to repair the power cord.

Hi Oren,
I snapped this picture for you of all my pumps.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5466/...13d4a257_b.jpg

I might resort to pumping out the last few feet, since the garden
hose siphon is really sloooooooooooow (16 to 32 times slower than
the vacuum hose siphon was).

The problem, of course, with the pumps, is that they clog like
crazy, and that I have to gather up an assortment of odd fittings
and connectors to get them to hook to a basic garden hose.

Plus, the darn things float around. They don't stay put in
the water. What's with that? Shouldn't these things stay put
when they're under the water and not float around?

On Tue, 06 May 2014 20:46:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:

If the 2 hose end fittings are leak free, you could just tape the 2 ends
together with plumbers tape - you know, like 2 or 4 inch wide heavy duty
electrical tape.

Here's my assortment of connections I'm still trying out ...
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/...15b82f78_b.jpg

I thought it was interesting that the blue "glue" didn't work,
since it is so fantastic on PVC pipe - but - the ends of those
vacuum hoses are not PVC so the blue "solvent" does nothing.

I am planning on getting the Fernco today, but, I really am liking
the trader4 idea of just pumping out the crud after plugging the
wall drains and the spa floor drains.

On Tue, 06 May 2014 22:05:04 -0400, Dan.Espen wrote:

Go to pool store buy 100 feet of the clear stuff.
You're going to suck on a 1.5" hose to get the siphon going?

Heh heh ... I "should" play smart and say that I didn't try sucking
on the hoses to start the siphoning off ... and I should simply say
I'm too smart to make that beginner's mistake ... but ... I DID try
to suck on both the 100 foot garden hose, and on the 1.5 inch diameter
vacuum hose.

No go. Not even close. It's impossible. At least for me.

What I did, with an assistant, to get the siphons started, was
fill the hose with water on the deck, and then I climbed down
on the outlet end, and yelled to my assistant to drop the inlet
end into the water, and then I removed my hand from the outlet
end, and, as long as there were no leaks at the fittings, the
water gushed forth.

This works just fine to start the siphon going, but, the problem
I have is that I don't have a long enough length of the 1.5-inch
wide vacuum hose, and my connection for two hoses is not air tight.

On Wed, 7 May 2014 17:52:49 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Tue, 06 May 2014 16:15:39 -0700, Oren wrote:

...invest in a little GIANT, Big John 1/4 HP, submersible sump pump.
Mine gets me down to 2 inches of water and shuts off - nothing to
worry about. 25' power cord connected to a garden hose. Water the
trees

Hi Oren,
Here is a picture of my multitude of pumps, all of which stink:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5466/...13d4a257_b.jpg

The Craftsman pump is a half horsepower non submersible, while the
other three pumps are submersibles.

The problem is that they stink, in many ways.
They get clogged. They leak. The Craftsman pump needs to be
primed and it loses its prime all the time. The connections
are puny and prone to leak. etc.

I've pretty much given up on the portable pumps. Sigh.

I see pool service trucks around here that have portable service
vacuum pumps for cleaning and I suspect for fast draining of pools.
They are expensive to buy but one could build one. I'm curious about
the power source. 110 v 220? They carry them mounted on the draw bar
below the rear bumper. Easy load and unload on the truck.

Pic:

http://www.bluewaterpools-spas.com/files/8212/6782/4059/Kenny%20Simons%20Pool.JPG

Next service truck I see, I'll ask more about them.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 1:30:35 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2014 09:15:07 -0700, trader_4 wrote:



Every pool I've seen

there is an outlet at the pool pump pad, usually coming right

off the multi-port valve, that you use to pump water out.



Is this red valve that valve you speak of?

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7302/...07eae28e_b.jpg



The water goes from the three or four wall and floor drains,

to a filter canister on the deck, and from there it goes

to the filter pump (which is what has the open basket of

green water pouring out in that picture above).



From the filter pump, it goes past that red valve, and

then into the filter, and then back to the pool.

Not that it matters, but the above makes it sound like you
have two filters, one before the pump and one after. I've
never seen that. Systems I've seen the one filter is after
the pump, but then the ones I've seen have been the DE type.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:30:35 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2014 06:27:47 -0700, Jon Danniken wrote:



If this is the standard "flat" hose, use an internal coupler.



My pool has a cloth filter so we never use the flat backwash hose:

http://amazon.com/Poolmaster-32170-B.../dp/B007OTEJGG



The "backwash hose" is also the hose that you use when you
pump water out of the pool.

On Wed, 7 May 2014 05:42:07 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

why don't you just use garden hose(s)?



...invest in a little GIANT, Big John 1/4 HP, submersible sump pump.

Mine gets me down to 2 inches of water and shuts off - nothing to

worry about. 25' power cord connected to a garden hose. Water the

trees

How about the much bigger pump he already has, ie the "pool pump"?
Every pool I've seen has a bottom drain. You just close off the
other inlets so they can't suck air and turn the pump on.

My pool has two drains in the deepest part, the skimmer in the shallow
end, the cleaner line is wall mounted. I have a 3-way Jandy at the
pump to adjust them or isolate the cleaner. Cartridge filters, and no
back flash ability. I seem to recall the original pump did have a
3/4" hose bib in the line at the pump. I'm not certain now as I had
the pump and filter changed a few years ago. My solar panel pipe does
have a hose bib in-line to drain the solar panels in winter - if
necessary (never used it).

I see no practical way to use the pool pump, since there is no way to
discharge the water. I guess.

~11,000 gallons I can usually drain the pool completely in 24 hours
with the submersible sump pump and garden hose attached.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:21:31 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:

I see no practical way to use the pool pump, since there is no way to

discharge the water. I guess.


Is there room on the pipe to install a bypass loop and a couple of ball valves? Maybe for a small cost you could add a fitting that would give you the option of a valved outlet. Like a three way or a wye. Seems like if you already have a pump wired in, all you need to do is add a hose outlet to the pipe downstream and a valve to make it go that direction.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 3:34:31 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:21:31 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:



I see no practical way to use the pool pump, since there is no way to



discharge the water. I guess.




Cut pipe. Install tee. Install ball valve just downstream from tee. Install ball valve in tee. Attach hose to tee.


Is there room on the pipe to install a bypass loop and a couple of ball valves? Maybe for a small cost you could add a fitting that would give you the option of a valved outlet. Like a three way or a wye. Seems like if you already have a pump wired in, all you need to do is add a hose outlet to the pipe downstream and a valve to make it go that direction.

On Wed, 7 May 2014 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:21:31 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:

I see no practical way to use the pool pump, since there is no way to

discharge the water. I guess.


Is there room on the pipe to install a bypass loop and a couple of ball valves? Maybe for a small cost you could add a fitting that would give you the option of a valved outlet. Like a three way or a wye. Seems like if you already have a pump wired in, all you need to do is add a hose outlet to the pipe downstream and a valve to make it go that direction.

Anything is possible. I see no need to do more plumbing for now. The
submersible sump pump does the job for my small pool. I've only fully
drained the pool one time in the past decade. Works for me.

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 3:40:58 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 3:34:31 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:21:31 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:







I see no practical way to use the pool pump, since there is no way to







discharge the water. I guess.









Cut pipe. Install tee. Install ball valve just downstream from tee. Install ball valve in tee. Attach hose to tee.



Bingo. I would also think that every pool would have that as part
of it's design. With a DE or sand filter, you have that as part of
the multiport valve design. I would think it would be included as
part of every pool design, because sooner or later you're going to need
to remove at least some of the water. Sooner if you live in most of
the country, where a few days of heavy rain can raise the water level
above the skimmers.

I understand Danny says he has a cartridge filter. But he also said
he has a backwash hose? What's that for, if he doesn't have a filter
to backwash?

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 06 May 2014 20:46:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:

If the 2 hose end fittings are leak free, you could just tape the 2
ends together with plumbers tape - you know, like 2 or 4 inch wide
heavy duty electrical tape.

Here's my assortment of connections I'm still trying out ...
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/...15b82f78_b.jpg

I thought it was interesting that the blue "glue" didn't work,
since it is so fantastic on PVC pipe - but - the ends of those
vacuum hoses are not PVC so the blue "solvent" does nothing.

I am planning on getting the Fernco today, but, I really am liking
the trader4 idea of just pumping out the crud after plugging the
wall drains and the spa floor drains.

I can't imagine how these fittings could relate to the hose ends you showed
earlier.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2930/...36137f4d9b.jpg

Either find a 3" length of heavy tube of hose that those two ends can be pushed
firmly into, or butt them together and tape as I described above. Hose clanps
could be added to either to strengthen the result. No rocket science needed.

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 06 May 2014 20:46:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:

If the 2 hose end fittings are leak free, you could just tape the 2
ends together with plumbers tape - you know, like 2 or 4 inch wide
heavy duty electrical tape.

Here's my assortment of connections I'm still trying out ...
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/...15b82f78_b.jpg

I thought it was interesting that the blue "glue" didn't work,
since it is so fantastic on PVC pipe - but - the ends of those
vacuum hoses are not PVC so the blue "solvent" does nothing.

I am planning on getting the Fernco today, but, I really am liking
the trader4 idea of just pumping out the crud after plugging the
wall drains and the spa floor drains.

I should add, to start the siphon, just use one of those submersible pumps.
Immerse the pump, press the hose end over the outlet until the hose fills and
the siphon starts, then pull the hose off the pump without letting it get near
air..

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:04:15 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 06 May 2014 20:46:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:



If the 2 hose end fittings are leak free, you could just tape the 2

ends together with plumbers tape - you know, like 2 or 4 inch wide

heavy duty electrical tape.



Here's my assortment of connections I'm still trying out ...

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/...15b82f78_b.jpg



I thought it was interesting that the blue "glue" didn't work,

since it is so fantastic on PVC pipe - but - the ends of those

vacuum hoses are not PVC so the blue "solvent" does nothing.



I am planning on getting the Fernco today, but, I really am liking

the trader4 idea of just pumping out the crud after plugging the

wall drains and the spa floor drains.



I should add, to start the siphon, just use one of those submersible pumps.

Immerse the pump, press the hose end over the outlet until the hose fills and

the siphon starts, then pull the hose off the pump without letting it get near

air..

Another genius. If he has a pump, he doesn't need a siphon.

"Danny D." writes:

On Tue, 06 May 2014 22:05:04 -0400, Dan.Espen wrote:

Go to pool store buy 100 feet of the clear stuff.
You're going to suck on a 1.5" hose to get the siphon going?

Heh heh ... I "should" play smart and say that I didn't try sucking
on the hoses to start the siphoning off ... and I should simply say
I'm too smart to make that beginner's mistake ... but ... I DID try
to suck on both the 100 foot garden hose, and on the 1.5 inch diameter
vacuum hose.

No go. Not even close. It's impossible. At least for me.

What I did, with an assistant, to get the siphons started, was
fill the hose with water on the deck, and then I climbed down
on the outlet end, and yelled to my assistant to drop the inlet
end into the water, and then I removed my hand from the outlet
end, and, as long as there were no leaks at the fittings, the
water gushed forth.

This works just fine to start the siphon going, but, the problem
I have is that I don't have a long enough length of the 1.5-inch
wide vacuum hose, and my connection for two hoses is not air tight.

Yeah, and I don't think that spiral hose will ever be airtight.
That's why I mentioned the clear hose.

But if you're draining the pool because of algae in the pool,
I think you're taking the wrong approach.

Fill it up, use liquid bleach.

Since you appear to have it mostly drained, put in the
bleach, then fill it up.

Next year, cover the pool at the end of the season.

Using a pump to drain the pool is very sensible
if you really have to drain a pool.

--
Dan Espen

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:57:36 PM UTC-4, net cop wrote:
"Danny D." writes:



On Tue, 06 May 2014 22:05:04 -0400, Dan.Espen wrote:



Go to pool store buy 100 feet of the clear stuff.

You're going to suck on a 1.5" hose to get the siphon going?



Heh heh ... I "should" play smart and say that I didn't try sucking

on the hoses to start the siphoning off ... and I should simply say

I'm too smart to make that beginner's mistake ... but ... I DID try

to suck on both the 100 foot garden hose, and on the 1.5 inch diameter

vacuum hose.



No go. Not even close. It's impossible. At least for me.



What I did, with an assistant, to get the siphons started, was

fill the hose with water on the deck, and then I climbed down

on the outlet end, and yelled to my assistant to drop the inlet

end into the water, and then I removed my hand from the outlet

end, and, as long as there were no leaks at the fittings, the

water gushed forth.



This works just fine to start the siphon going, but, the problem

I have is that I don't have a long enough length of the 1.5-inch

wide vacuum hose, and my connection for two hoses is not air tight.



Yeah, and I don't think that spiral hose will ever be airtight.

That's why I mentioned the clear hose.



But if you're draining the pool because of algae in the pool,

I think you're taking the wrong approach.



Fill it up, use liquid bleach.



Since you appear to have it mostly drained, put in the

bleach, then fill it up.



Next year, cover the pool at the end of the season.



I live in NJ, so the conditions are going to be different
than in CA, but every year I've had the pool cover on, the
pool always had a reasonable amount of algae and was a mess
that took several days to get straightened out. It wasn't nearly
as bad as Danny's but it was green and you couldn't see the
botttom. And it took a lot of chlorine to straighten out. This year,
as an experiment and because it's nicer to look at water than
a cover, I winterized it, but didn't put the cover on.
About once a month, I did scoup up some of the leaves that had
accumulated in spots on the bottom. It was clear the whole time.
I started the pool back up last week and the polaris
had 90% of the debris out in just a few hours. In prior years
I'd do several backwashes before it was clean. This year, no
backwash yet. So, I'm re-thinking the whole strategy of using
a cover. It's also quite a bit of work putting it on, taking
it off, folding it up, dragging it to where it gets stored, etc.






Using a pump to drain the pool is very sensible

if you really have to drain a pool.



--

Dan Espen

On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 7:33:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
So, I'm re-thinking the whole strategy of using

a cover. It's also quite a bit of work putting it on, taking

it off, folding it up, dragging it to where it gets stored, etc.


Very risky.

Here's what's going to happen. After a spell of cold weather, your pool water will be at 33 F.

But you'll get that one warm spring day, an unseasonal 80 . And you had friends over to grill, (well don't grill the friends, grill steaks FOR the friends), and one too many beers, and the water looks so inviting you just have to jump in.

After that you'll never leave the cover off again, if you even survive.

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 8:47:56 AM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 7:33:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

So, I'm re-thinking the whole strategy of using



a cover. It's also quite a bit of work putting it on, taking



it off, folding it up, dragging it to where it gets stored, etc.





Very risky.



Here's what's going to happen. After a spell of cold weather, your pool water will be at 33 F.



But you'll get that one warm spring day, an unseasonal 80 . And you had friends over to grill, (well don't grill the friends, grill steaks FOR the friends), and one too many beers, and the water looks so inviting you just have to jump in.



After that you'll never leave the cover off again, if you even survive.

Good grief. More fairy tales. It's May 8th. The pool has been in the 60's
for weeks and there hasn't been a single day I or anyone else has been
tempted to go in it. Even a month ago, it was in the 50s. What would you do
with a pond on your property? Cover that up too, until July? And if this
alleged hopping in the water is instantly fatal, then I should be seeing
lots of reports of it happening in bays, oceans, rivers every Spring. I
can't recall it happening. I do recall that every year the polar bear folks
have a go at jumping in the ocean in January, hundreds of them, making a
big spectacle for TV. If they were dying, seems that would be featured in
the TV report and make a hell of a story. So, sorry, but I'm not worried
about someone drunk doing something stupid, that's just part of what goes
with a pool. Look and you'll find plenty of drunks and idiots that have
died in pools, hot tubs etc that were operating normally. If I wanted to
make a similar loony argument, I could claim that the pool with a cover
is far more dangerous. A drunk or idiot could choose to try to walk
across it, the cover tears or slips into the pool with them, and they drown, etc.

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

Good grief. More fairy tales. It's May 8th. The pool has been in the 60's

for weeks and there hasn't been a single day I or anyone else has been

tempted to go in it. Even a month ago, it was in the 50s. What would you do


Earth to trader: humor challenged much?

TimR wrote:
On Thursday, May 8, 2014 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

Good grief. More fairy tales. It's May 8th. The pool has been in
the 60's

for weeks and there hasn't been a single day I or anyone else has
been

tempted to go in it. Even a month ago, it was in the 50s. What
would you do


Earth to trader: humor challenged much?

You thought you were saying something funny????

Really?

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 11:23:13 AM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
TimR wrote:

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:



Good grief. More fairy tales. It's May 8th. The pool has been in

the 60's



for weeks and there hasn't been a single day I or anyone else has

been



tempted to go in it. Even a month ago, it was in the 50s. What

would you do





Earth to trader: humor challenged much?



You thought you were saying something funny????



Really?

You took it seriously? OMG!

On Thu, 8 May 2014 21:00:27 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

Maybe you should have turned that pool into the algae growth chamber for an
alternative diesel fuel plant. Looks like you had a good start.


Pico, good catch on that! He sell the crap to the gov't for 149 bux a gal
because they are paying $150 a gal now for the algae fuel now. Think of the
saving to us taxpayers. See Al Grope for seed money because he's got it.

Didn't R&D cost $700 a gallon to make? Then pay $150 gallon for the
jets? Math is hard.

TimR wrote:
On Thursday, May 8, 2014 11:23:13 AM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
TimR wrote:

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 11:05:39 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:



Good grief. More fairy tales. It's May 8th. The pool has been in

the 60's



for weeks and there hasn't been a single day I or anyone else has

been



tempted to go in it. Even a month ago, it was in the 50s. What

would you do





Earth to trader: humor challenged much?



You thought you were saying something funny????



Really?

You took it seriously? OMG!

I was just immensely impressed by the stupidity of it. I guess i don't really
find stupid to be funny.