I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

wrote:
I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

This guy did it to a GE chest freezer. I assume it would be very similar
with a Gibson.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NdmkGIGPXU8

As far as remote monitoring, there are lots of indoor-outdoor thermometers
available that will also give the humidity.

Here's just one example.

http://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00611A.../dp/B001B35APA

DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

This guy did it to a GE chest freezer. I assume it would be very similar
with a Gibson.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NdmkGIGPXU8

As far as remote monitoring, there are lots of indoor-outdoor thermometers
available that will also give the humidity.

Here's just one example.

http://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00611A.../dp/B001B35APA

I just thought of something that might be an issue.

The remote sensor for the thermometer I linked to may not be able to
transmit through the case of the freezer. You may need to find something
with a probe. Taylor makes cooking thermometers with a probe, cable and
remote receiver. (I have one for grilling) However, they don't measure
humidity. You'll need a probe or probes that do both.

On Fri, 11 Apr 2014 16:39:26 GMT, wrote:

I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp?

Well, you can buy a refrigerator thermostat. I had to replace mine and
I think it was between 10 and 20 dollars.

I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement.

Don't ever go into the basement. I knew someone who was overcome by the
smell of cheese and missed two weeks of work before the boss sent the
police to look for him. He had mold all over his face and hands, but
after therapy, he was okay.

any advise appreciated.

Buckwheat:

While you CAN put a fridge thermostat into a freezer the difficulty arises in maintaining that 80% humidity level.

You see, in a regular fridge, the humidity of the air is extremely low because the air inside the fridge regularily passes over the evaporator coils, which in a healthy fridge are very very cold. So, the air passing over a -60 deg. F evaporator coil is going to leave with a humidity of 100% humidity at -60 degrees F. That humidity is much lower than 100% humidity at 34 to 38 degrees F. So, almost all of the humidity in that air forms frost on those evaporator coils, and it's that removal of humidity from the air that allows the evaporator coils to go without having to be defrosted but only once every day or there abouts.

If you're going to be putting open containers of water in your upright freezer, then your evaporator coils are going to be continually caking up with frost, and you'll be continuously refilling those open containers with water. This is problematic because the surface area of an evaporator coil caked up with frost is far smaller than the surface area of the evaporator coil fins, and the result is that the fridge will warm up for lack of sufficient heat transfer from the freezer air into the refrigerant.

I think what you should do is Google "Cheese Making" and see what other people have done to create the right conditions for the bacteria to thrive.

I see your plan of using an upright freezer to provide the right conditions for bacterial growth as fatally flawed. The very way a refrigeration cycle works causes it to remove humidity from the air, and that's the downfall.

one other factor is the temperature in my basement is about 60 in the summer
and winter is 50 or lower.

On 4/11/2014 12:39 PM, wrote:
I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

Should be able to change the temp range by using
a thermostat (cold control) out of a refrigerator.
As to humidity, I'm not much help. I'm not sure
how performance will be affected, running
different temp range. Different duty cycle, for
sure.

Is the unit self defrosting, or does it have
tubes in the shelves?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

no it is not self defrosting

On 4/11/2014 5:10 PM, micky wrote:
Don't ever go into the basement. I knew someone who was overcome by the
smell of cheese and missed two weeks of work before the boss sent the
police to look for him. He had mold all over his face and hands, but
after therapy, he was okay.

any advise appreciated.


That must have been painful, being soaked in
Clorox, and having his skin scraped off.
That mycotherapy is really wicked. We could
use it for Gitmo torture, it's that bad.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 4/11/2014 10:40 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

This guy did it to a GE chest freezer. I assume it would be very similar
with a Gibson.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NdmkGIGPXU8

As far as remote monitoring, there are lots of indoor-outdoor thermometers
available that will also give the humidity.

Here's just one example.

http://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00611A.../dp/B001B35APA

I just thought of something that might be an issue.

The remote sensor for the thermometer I linked to may not be able to
transmit through the case of the freezer. You may need to find something
with a probe. Taylor makes cooking thermometers with a probe, cable and
remote receiver. (I have one for grilling) However, they don't measure
humidity. You'll need a probe or probes that do both.

antenna wire thru the case

wrote:
no it is not self defrosting

You might have water collecting and too much humidity.

Greg

On Friday, April 11, 2014 5:48:08 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
Buckwheat:



While you CAN put a fridge thermostat into a freezer the difficulty

arises in maintaining that 80% humidity level.



You see, in a regular fridge, the humidity of the air is extremely low

because the air inside the fridge regularily passes over the evaporator

coils, which in a healthy fridge are very very cold. So, the air

passing over a -60 deg. F evaporator coil is going to leave with a

humidity of 100% humidity at -60 degrees F.

IDK on what basis you can conclude that the humidity is going
to be 100% leaving the evaporator. Not that it matters that much.





That humidity is much lower

than 100% humidity at 34 to 38 degrees F. So, almost all of the

humidity in that air forms frost on those evaporator coils, and it's

that removal of humidity from the air that allows the evaporator coils

to go without having to be defrosted but only once every day or there

abouts.



If you're going to be putting open containers of water in your upright

freezer, then your evaporator coils are going to be continually caking

up with frost, and you'll be continuously refilling those open

containers with water. This is problematic because the surface area of

an evaporator coil caked up with frost is far smaller than the surface

area of the evaporator coil fins, and the result is that the fridge will

warm up for lack of sufficient heat transfer from the freezer air into

the refrigerant.



But he's not keeping it at freezer temps, he's keeping it at
50F. The evaporator coils will be constantly defrosting themselves.
The coils will get cold for a short time, only long enough to drop the
temp of the unit back to 50F, then turn off. They will then warm up
and melt. Its going to have a very short on duty cycle compared
to it's off time. The real problem I see there is that he may need
some way of getting rid of the condensate, as the freezer system
may not be able to handle it.






I think what you should do is Google "Cheese Making" and see what other

people have done to create the right conditions for the bacteria to

thrive.



I see your plan of using an upright freezer to provide the right

conditions for bacterial growth as fatally flawed. The very way a

refrigeration cycle works causes it to remove humidity from the air, and

that's the downfall.


I agree that whether he can maintain 80% is a good question. The
thing in his favor is that he's doing it at 50-55F, in which case,
it might work, depending on where it's located. If it's in a 65F
basement, it's hardly going to run at all, so it can't take out
much water. If it's in a 90F garage, ie running a lot more, then
it probably won't work for the reason you outline.

Well, imagine the air isn't moving. If you have room temperature air, and you cool that air down to -60 deg F, then at some point during the cooling process you'll go below the dew point and moisture will precipitate out of that air. From then on, as you continue cooling the air, moisture will precipitate out of the air and the air will remain at a relative humidity of 100%.

No, the cold control in a fridge works just like the thermostat in an oven. It doesn't shut the compressor down when the set temperature is reached because then, the fridge will be spending all of it's time ABOVE that set temperature. When you set an oven to 350 deg. F, the oven bake and/or broil elements don't shut off at 350 deg. F. Typically with the old oil filled capillaries, the oven bake and broil elements will shut off at 362 deg F and go back on again at about 338 deg F so that you have a 25 degree hysterisis that gives you an AVERAGE temperature of 350 deg. F.

A fridge's cold control will do the same thing, but I'm just not sure of the temperature range. But, suffice it to say that there's a hysterisis built into cold controls to control the temperature so that the AVERAGE temperature over time is the set temperature.

The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer. So, with open containers of water in that freezer, his evaporator coils are going to get caked up with frost and he's going to be spending several hours every 2nd or 3rd day defrosting the evaporator. It's going to be just like the old manual defrost fridges, only with the frost accumulating on the evaporator very much faster, which is why I'm saying the use of a freezer to provide a cool humid environment won't work. A freezer will only provide a cool dry environment.

On Saturday, April 12, 2014 10:46:34 AM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
trader_4;3221641 Wrote:



IDK on what basis you can conclude that the humidity is going

to be 100% leaving the evaporator. Not that it matters that much.





Well, imagine the air isn't moving.

But the air *is* moving across the evaporator.


If you have room temperature air,

and you cool that air down to -60 deg F, then at some point during the

cooling process you'll go below the dew point and moisture will

precipitate out of that air. From then on, as you continue cooling the

air, moisture will precipitate out of the air and the air will remain at

a relative humidity of 100%.



Sure if it's air that's just sitting around and it has time to reach
a steady state. But this air is moving past the chilled coils. If you
applied your reasoning to a home central AC system, then the air that's
leaving the unit at about 55F should be 100% humidity. Do the math.
If that air was indeed 100% humidity, even when it warmed up inside
the house, the humidity would still be way too high to be comfortable.
It's not going to go from 100% to 40% or 50%, ie a comfortable range,
by just warming up 15F.





But he's not keeping it at freezer temps, he's keeping it at

50F. The evaporator coils will be constantly defrosting themselves.

The coils will get cold for a short time, only long enough to drop the

temp of the unit back to 50F, then turn off. They will then warm up

and melt. Its going to have a very short on duty cycle compared

to it's off time. The real problem I see there is that he may need

some way of getting rid of the condensate, as the freezer system

may not be able to handle it.





No, the cold control in a fridge works just like the thermostat in an

oven.

No what?


It doesn't shut the compressor down when the set temperature is

reached because then, the fridge will be spending all of it's time ABOVE

that set temperature. When you set an oven to 350 deg. F, the oven

bake and/or broil elements don't shut off at 350 deg. F. Typically with

the old oil filled capillaries, the oven bake and broil elements will

shut off at 362 deg F and go back on again at about 338 deg F so that

you have a 25 degree hysterisis that gives you an AVERAGE temperature of

350 deg. F.



Which is irrelevant. If I set my fridge and freezer at say 37F/0F,
it stays pretty damn close to those numbers, when the door is left
closed. So what if it goes up or down 2 or 3 degrees? It doesn't
change the fact that to maintain 55F inside, a fridge isn't going to
run much at all, unless it's in a garage or someplace where it's 90F.
Put it in a house where it's 70F or a basement where it's 65F and
it's not going to run enough to keep the coils frozen. It will run
for a few minutes, shut off, and any ice on the coils is going to have
a long time to melt at 55F.




A fridge's cold control will do the same thing, but I'm just not sure of

the temperature range. But, suffice it to say that there's a hysterisis

built into cold controls to control the temperature so that the AVERAGE

temperature over time is the set temperature.



And the range is pretty tight too. A fridge set at 37F, with the door
closed, isn't going from 45 to 29F. To maintain 55F, it's going to run
for a few minutes and shut off.




The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer.

Where did he say that?



So, with open

containers of water in that freezer, his evaporator coils are going to

get caked up with frost and he's going to be spending several hours

every 2nd or 3rd day defrosting the evaporator. It's going to be just

like the old manual defrost fridges, only with the frost accumulating on

the evaporator very much faster, which is why I'm saying the use of a

freezer to provide a cool humid environment won't work. A freezer will

only provide a cool dry environment.


But it's *not* a freezer, because he's running it to maintain 50 - 55F.
Good grief.

mike wrote:
On 4/11/2014 10:40 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
I have an upright Gibson freezer and would like to convert it to a
refrigerator. I am going to start making cheese and need a "Cheese Cave".
I need to maintain a temp in low 50's to 55 and humidity of 80%. I guess i
need some kind of controller for the temp? I think I can control the
humidity with open containers of water. The freezer will be in the basement
so it would be nice if I can have a way to read temp and humidity without
going into basement. any advise appreciated.

This guy did it to a GE chest freezer. I assume it would be very similar
with a Gibson.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NdmkGIGPXU8

As far as remote monitoring, there are lots of indoor-outdoor thermometers
available that will also give the humidity.

Here's just one example.

http://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00611A.../dp/B001B35APA

I just thought of something that might be an issue.

The remote sensor for the thermometer I linked to may not be able to
transmit through the case of the freezer. You may need to find something
with a probe. Taylor makes cooking thermometers with a probe, cable and
remote receiver. (I have one for grilling) However, they don't measure
humidity. You'll need a probe or probes that do both.

antenna wire thru the case

Antenna wire? Not on the remote units for the indoor outdoor thermometers
I've used.

This guy added an antenna to his...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Incr...Q-Thermometer/

The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer.
Top right corner of every post in a thread will have a Post Number.

Read post #8 on page 1 of this thread.

On Saturday, April 12, 2014 10:58:47 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
The OP said it's NOT a self defrosting freezer.

trader_4;3221902 Wrote:



Where did he say that?





Top right corner of every post in a thread will have a Post Number.



Read post #8 on page 1 of this thread.




OK, I see where he said it's not self-defrosting. Of course it
doesn't matter, because at 50 - 55F, it is going to be self-defrosting
whether designed that way or not.

Well, I doubt if any refrigerator cold control will allow a temperature as high as 50 deg. F., but regardless of what temperature the cold control is set at, the compressor is still going to operate the same way.

That is, whenever the compressor starts running, the evaporation of the refrigerant in the evaporator coils is still going to cause the temperature of the evaporator coils to drop down to -60 deg. F (say). The temperature of the evaporator coils is unaffected by the set temperature of the cold control. Raising the temperature of the cold control only means that the compressor runs less often. But, when it runs, it runs the same way it would if the cold control was set to a much lower temperature. So, I'm thinking the evaporator coils are still going to get caked up with frost.

On 4/13/2014 1:22 PM, nestork wrote:

trader_4;3222027 Wrote:

OK, I see where he said it's not self-defrosting. Of course it
doesn't matter, because at 50 - 55F, it is going to be self-defrosting
whether designed that way or not.

Well, I doubt if any refrigerator cold control will allow a temperature
as high as 50 deg. F., but regardless of what temperature the cold
control is set at, the compressor is still going to operate the same
way.

That is, whenever the compressor starts running, the evaporation of the
refrigerant in the evaporator coils is still going to cause the
temperature of the evaporator coils to drop down to -60 deg. F (say).
The temperature of the evaporator coils is unaffected by the set
temperature of the cold control. Raising the temperature of the cold
control only means that the compressor runs less often. But, when it
runs, it runs the same way it would if the cold control was set to a
much lower temperature. So, I'm thinking the evaporator coils are still
going to get caked up with frost.

And during off cycles, the 50 degree air
in the box will thaw the evaporator.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:22:53 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
trader_4;3222027 Wrote:



OK, I see where he said it's not self-defrosting. Of course it

doesn't matter, because at 50 - 55F, it is going to be self-defrosting

whether designed that way or not.



Well, I doubt if any refrigerator cold control will allow a temperature

as high as 50 deg. F.,

He doesn't have to use a refrigerator cold control. Isn't that
why he's here asking what to use to convert a freezzer into a 50 -55F
environment?



but regardless of what temperature the cold

control is set at, the compressor is still going to operate the same

way.



That is, whenever the compressor starts running, the evaporation of the

refrigerant in the evaporator coils is still going to cause the

temperature of the evaporator coils to drop down to -60 deg. F (say).

The temperature of the evaporator coils is unaffected by the set

temperature of the cold control. Raising the temperature of the cold

control only means that the compressor runs less often. But, when it

runs, it runs the same way it would if the cold control was set to a

much lower temperature. So, I'm thinking the evaporator coils are still

going to get caked up with frost.




Maybe they would eventually, if it ran long enough. How long do you think
the compressor needs to run to maintain 50F inside a closed freezer
that's in a basement? About 5 mins
an hour would probably do it. Whatever it is, there is going to be a
lot of time for any ice that's formed to melt when the compressor is off,
which it will be for long periods. It's 50F, not 0F.