Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. .02

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:11:29 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. .02

Care to explain that notion?

Why exactly it is useless; used in conjunction with individual SPDs.

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-6, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:11:29 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa

wrote:



Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. .02



Care to explain that notion?



Why exactly it is useless; used in conjunction with individual SPDs.

Since runs of different surge loads possibly share the same conduit or are run side by side...surge will be induced after the protection. Leaving the expensive device impotent.

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 11:21:58 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-6, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:11:29 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa



wrote:







Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. .02







Care to explain that notion?







Why exactly it is useless; used in conjunction with individual SPDs.



Since runs of different surge loads possibly share the same conduit or are run side by side...surge will be induced after the protection. Leaving the expensive device impotent.

The destructive surges that destroy equipment almost always
originate from outside the house, with lightning being the prime
cause. Lightning striking the utility lines somewhere in the
vicinity results in a surge. You want to stop those before or
just as they are entering the house. A panel mounted whole house
surge protector does exactly that, by diverting the surge current
to ground. Additional protection via plug-in protectors should be
at any appliances that are connected to more than just AC, ie cable,
phone, etc. It's a tiered approach, and a whole house unit is
the first line of defense. But, it's not always possible either,
eg folks living in apartments, rental properties, etc. In that
case plug-in is all you can do.

As for expensive, a good whole house surge protector costa about
$125.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 12:11:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:

The destructive surges that destroy equipment almost always

originate from outside the house, with lightning being the prime

cause. Lightning striking the utility lines somewhere in the

vicinity results in a surge. You want to stop those before or

just as they are entering the house. A panel mounted whole house

surge protector does exactly that, by diverting the surge current

to ground. Additional protection via plug-in protectors should be

at any appliances that are connected to more than just AC, ie cable,

phone, etc. It's a tiered approach, and a whole house unit is

the first line of defense. But, it's not always possible either,

eg folks living in apartments, rental properties, etc. In that

case plug-in is all you can do.



As for expensive, a good whole house surge protector costa about

$125.

This sounds like a sales pitch...there is virtually nothing that will prevent damage from a nearby lightning strike. Mainly because it will "jump" over, or burn-out any device. Again, this is my .02 (Another thing that might help and is free...keep your fingers crossed! *L* )

by lightning strike. Mainly because it will "jump" over, or burn-out any
device. Again, this is my .02 (Another thi
On 2/10/2014 12:23 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, February 10, 2014 12:11:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:

The destructive surges that destroy equipment almost always

originate from outside the house, with lightning being the prime

cause. Lightning striking the utility lines somewhere in the

vicinity results in a surge. You want to stop those before or

just as they are entering the house. A panel mounted whole house

surge protector does exactly that, by diverting the surge current

to ground. Additional protection via plug-in protectors should be

at any appliances that are connected to more than just AC, ie cable,

phone, etc. It's a tiered approach, and a whole house unit is

the first line of defense. But, it's not always possible either,

eg folks living in apartments, rental properties, etc. In that

case plug-in is all you can do.



As for expensive, a good whole house surge protector costa about

$125.

This sounds like a sales pitch...there is virtually nothing that will prevent damage from a nearng that might help and is free...keep your fingers crossed! *L* )


As I have often posted, an investigation by the surge expert at the NIST
looked at the current that could come in on service wires. He used a
100,000A lightning strike (only 5% are stronger) and the strike was to a
utility pole in the alley behind the house with typical overhead
distribution - extremely close. This is, for practical purposes, a worst
case. The surge current to the house was 10,000A per service wire.
Service panel protectors with far higher ratings are readily available.
I think the Leviton protector from the OP is rated 48,000A.

And as I have often posted, if there is no service panel protector, when
the voltage from service busbars to the enclosure reaches about 6,000V
there is arc-over. The established arc voltage is hundreds of volts.
Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing system most of the
surge energy is dumped to earth. Even with no service panel protector
the exposure inside the house from the service wires is much less than
we imagine.

What trader wrote is in agreement with what the NIST and IEEE say.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:23:22 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, February 10, 2014 12:11:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:



The destructive surges that destroy equipment almost always



originate from outside the house, with lightning being the prime



cause. Lightning striking the utility lines somewhere in the



vicinity results in a surge. You want to stop those before or



just as they are entering the house. A panel mounted whole house



surge protector does exactly that, by diverting the surge current



to ground. Additional protection via plug-in protectors should be



at any appliances that are connected to more than just AC, ie cable,



phone, etc. It's a tiered approach, and a whole house unit is



the first line of defense. But, it's not always possible either,



eg folks living in apartments, rental properties, etc. In that



case plug-in is all you can do.







As for expensive, a good whole house surge protector costa about



$125.



This sounds like a sales pitch...there is virtually nothing that will prevent damage from a nearby lightning strike. Mainly because it will "jump" over, or burn-out any device.

That is simply not true. A typical case is lightning striking utility wires
down the block from a house. Most of the lightning energy is going to be
dissipated to ground right at or near the strike. Just a small portion will
reach the house. If it were large, it would flash over before even reaching the panel.
Bud on here has posted the numbers from studies, but the highest surge
even from a nearby strike that makes it to the panel in like 99%
of the cases is like 10K amps.
That is within the capacity of a good $125 surge protector.

And if a surge protector at the panel that can handle 20K amps
isn't going to work, then how are the plug-ins that you suggest
going to protect? Again, the destructive surges are virtually
all coming from outside the house. It's not the washing machine
blowing up the TV.

Here is the IEEE guide that discusses the subject:

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf



Again, this is my .02 (Another thing that might help and is free...keep your fingers crossed! *L* )

On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:31:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:

From the PDF:
"2.5.2 Limitations of Panel SPDs
SPDs discussed here, and depicted in Figure 6A, are designed to protect against
very brief surges from lightning and surges from utility switching transients or
other overvoltages much shorter than one second. They are very effective in this
role. However, none of the standard SPDs available as panel protectors for
residential applications offer useful protection against sustained overvoltages
arising from open neutral conductors, high-voltage power crosses, or utility
regulator failure". Note: "very brief surges from lightning..."

Smoke and mirrors

"Bob_Villa" wrote in message
...
This sounds like a sales pitch...there is virtually nothing that will
prevent damage from a nearby lightning strike. Mainly because it will
"jump" over, or burn-out any device. Again, this is my .02 (Another thing
that might help and is free...keep your fingers crossed! *L* )

While there is probably nothing with in reason that will protect a house
against a direct hit, I believe you can be protected from hits down the line
or other problems.

I lived in a house with lots of electronic equipment and my ham radio
equipment. During a storm the power transformer that powers my house and 2
other houses let loose. I had to replace 2 differant surge supressor
strips. Also the electronics on the oven went out. Called the man on the
built in oven and all it took was to replace a MOV in it and replace a trace
on the circuit board. Just the minimum house call was charged. No other
damage was done. Both neighbors had to replace their TV sets. Not sure if
they lost anything else or not.

While not fool proof, that made a believer out of me that for minor surges
the strips are worth it.

Also checked with the power company and they said it was classified as an
act of GOD and they did not cover the damage,but to check with my insurance
company. With a $ 500 deductiable, it was no need to as the oven repair was
less than $ 100 and the surge strips were less also.






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On Monday, February 10, 2014 2:42:40 PM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:

While not fool proof, that made a believer out of me that for minor surges

the strips are worth it.

I have many point-of-use surge suppression devices...

On Mon, 10 Feb 2014 12:50:00 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

I have many point-of-use surge suppression devices...

I'm sure these are not a Model 1911 .45 devices...

On Monday, February 10, 2014 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:31:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:



From the PDF:

"2.5.2 Limitations of Panel SPDs

SPDs discussed here, and depicted in Figure 6A, are designed to protect against

very brief surges from lightning and surges from utility switching transients or

other overvoltages much shorter than one second. They are very effective in this

role. However, none of the standard SPDs available as panel protectors for

residential applications offer useful protection against sustained overvoltages

arising from open neutral conductors, high-voltage power crosses, or utility

regulator failure". Note: "very brief surges from lightning..."



Smoke and mirrors

It's not smoke and mirrors. The nature of lightning surges on
powerlines, which has been well researched and documented, is that they
are very brief. They only last from 10 microseconds to less than a
milisecond. That is very brief and exactly what all surge protectors
are designed to deal with. There are UL and ANSI standards for
testing that define real world surges that are typically seen on
power lines and surge protectors are tested in simulators to
verify that they meet those standards.

What they are saying in that section is that all surge protectors,
whether panel mounted or the plug-ins that you apparently believe
work, are effective only for short duration surges. They all
will fail if subjected to basically continous overload from
high voltage power crosses, unregulated utility power, etc. A
surge protector that can take a 5000V 10K amp lightning surge
for 30 microseconds, can't take 700V 100 amps applied for 1 min
from crossed utility wires. That is what they are saying and
it applies not only to surge protectors at the panel, but also
to the plug-ins, which you apparently believe work. The
plug-ins typically use the same electronic components that
a panel protector uses, only much smaller ones, capable of
only handling smaller surges. That's the concept behind the
tiered stategy. A whole house surge protector at the panel
takes most of the surge, plug-ins where they are used deal with
whatever makes it past the panel one, followed by surge protection
in the appliance itself, which can deal with small surges too.
All of those are effective with brief surges, typical of real
world lightning hitting the utility wires down the block.
None of them will be effective against the long duration
overvoltage caused by crossed utility lines, etc.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 3:50:00 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, February 10, 2014 2:42:40 PM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:



While not fool proof, that made a believer out of me that for minor surges



the strips are worth it.



I have many point-of-use surge suppression devices...

And yet you claim that a whole house surge protector, which
is based on exactly the same types of devices that are in
your point-of-use protector, only with probably 10X+ the current
handling capability and a short direct connection to earth,
which makes them even more effective, won't work. Go figure.

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:32:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, February 10, 2014 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:31:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:

...or the plug-ins that you apparently believe work.

...which you apparently believe work.

These "point of use" protectors are also sacrificial...I'm not convinced to the extent of spending $125!

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:46:18 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:32:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:

On Monday, February 10, 2014 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:



On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:31:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:



...or the plug-ins that you apparently believe work.



...which you apparently believe work.



These "point of use" protectors are also sacrificial...I'm not convinced to the extent of spending $125!

Well if you don't believe NIST, IEEE, physics, etc, not much
we can do about that. This isn't a new area. Protecting eqpt
from lightning surges has been understood and widely deployed for 75
years or more. In the case of Ralph's example, a whole house surge protector
would have likely spared not only the oven, but the other surge
protectors as well. With all the electronics in most appliances
today, it's just not practical to use plug-ins as the main protection.
You can't plug your oven or dishwasher into a plug-in. And unlike
50 years ago, those appliances all have electronics now too. One
board goes in your oven, fridge, furnace, dishwaher, AC, etc and it's
going to cost a lot more than $125.

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:53:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:46:18 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:32:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:



On Monday, February 10, 2014 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:







On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:31:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:







...or the plug-ins that you apparently believe work.







...which you apparently believe work.







These "point of use" protectors are also sacrificial...I'm not convinced to the extent of spending $125!



Well if you don't believe NIST, IEEE, physics, etc, not much

we can do about that. This isn't a new area. Protecting eqpt

from lightning surges has been understood and widely deployed for 75

years or more. In the case of Ralph's example, a whole house surge protector

would have likely spared not only the oven, but the other surge

protectors as well. With all the electronics in most appliances

today, it's just not practical to use plug-ins as the main protection.

You can't plug your oven or dishwasher into a plug-in. And unlike

50 years ago, those appliances all have electronics now too. One

board goes in your oven, fridge, furnace, dishwasher, AC, etc and it's

going to cost a lot more than $125.

All you seem to do is repeat yourself...it's likely you are narcissistic and everyone needs to think as you do.
I notice this in many of your posts...you've said your piece many times and others will form their own opinions based on dialog and research.
As you tend to beat a point to death...it lessens any worth your logic may have...
As I have stated...this is only my opinion (.02)

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:32:01 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:53:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 8:46:18 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:



On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:32:56 AM UTC-6, wrote:







On Monday, February 10, 2014 3:34:29 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:















On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:31:37 PM UTC-6, wrote:















...or the plug-ins that you apparently believe work.















...which you apparently believe work.















These "point of use" protectors are also sacrificial...I'm not convinced to the extent of spending $125!







Well if you don't believe NIST, IEEE, physics, etc, not much



we can do about that. This isn't a new area. Protecting eqpt



from lightning surges has been understood and widely deployed for 75



years or more. In the case of Ralph's example, a whole house surge protector



would have likely spared not only the oven, but the other surge



protectors as well. With all the electronics in most appliances



today, it's just not practical to use plug-ins as the main protection.



You can't plug your oven or dishwasher into a plug-in. And unlike



50 years ago, those appliances all have electronics now too. One



board goes in your oven, fridge, furnace, dishwasher, AC, etc and it's



going to cost a lot more than $125.



All you seem to do is repeat yourself...it's likely you are narcissistic and everyone needs to think as you do.


I'm not repeating myself. You first claimed:

"Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. .02"

I explained why that isn't true. Nor is it practical to protect
ovens, dishwashers, dryers, furnaces, etc at the point of use. It's
not just about TVs and stereos.

Then you posted:

"This sounds like a sales pitch...there is virtually nothing that will prevent damage from a nearby lightning strike. Mainly because it will "jump" over, or burn-out any device"


So I gave you a cite to the IEEE guide for lightning and
surge protection, written by a team of engineering experts
in surge protection, peer reviewed and published by the IEEE.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

That's about as credible a source as there is. In turn, you
quoted a section of it and tried to make it say something that
it does not. You called the guide written by electrical engineers
who are expert in surge protection "smoke and mirrors"
So I explained why your interpretation is out of context and wrong.

That is not "repeating", it's simply refuting the new
arguments as you bring them up. It's science, not my opinion.

Ralph and Bud have also told you that you're wrong.



I notice this in many of your posts...you've said your piece many times and others will form their own opinions based on dialog and research.

Or based on nothing at all which is where your opinions seem to come from.
Care to share a credible cite that says whole house surge protectors are
useless, smoke and mirrors, etc? Why havne't you done that? If anyone
is just repeating themselves, it's you. Essentially it comes down to
whole house surge protectors are useless, just because that's my
opinion and I don't want to look at the real science from engineers
that have studied the subject.



As you tend to beat a point to death...it lessens any worth your logic may have...

As I have stated...this is only my opinion (.02)

I see, so when you call the IEEE guide "smoke and mirrors",
I should just stay silent. As for your opinion, are you
an electrical engineer? Have some cites to back up what you claim?
I could tell someone that it's my opinion that you can get
better gas mileage by putting 10% water in the tank. What's
that opinion worth without anything to back it up? You're
confusing opinion based on nothing with sound science.

You repeat yourself multiple times in this one post...you have to be desperate!
You need to sit down and relax...take a few breaths!

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:51:20 PM UTC-6, Bob_Villa wrote:
You repeat yourself multiple times in this one post...you have to be desperate!

You need to sit down and relax...take a few breaths!

"80% of surges come from within a building are generated every time equipment cycles on and off."

Source: "The Myth of Whole-House Surge Protection"
http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...ge_protection/

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:51:20 PM UTC-6, Bob_Villa wrote:
You repeat yourself multiple times in this one post...you have to be desperate!

You need to sit down and relax...take a few breaths!

"Why Whole Building Surge Protectors Don't Work"
http://www.us-tech.com/RelId/1082596...27t_Work.h tm

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:06:22 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:51:20 PM UTC-6, Bob_Villa wrote:

You repeat yourself multiple times in this one post...you have to be desperate!



You need to sit down and relax...take a few breaths!



"Why Whole Building Surge Protectors Don't Work"

http://www.us-tech.com/RelId/1082596...27t_Work.h tm

I hope you realize that both this source and the one you cited in
your previous posts come from the same source and that source apparently
owns a business that sells alternative forms of surge supprssors. What
his company sells is different than either the common plug-ins that
you acknowledge work, or the MOV approach that is used in whole house
surge protectors. It's rather odd that you'd bring up a guy who's in
the business of selling expensive surge protector strips, $160, when
you previously made the comment about me sounding like I was giving
a sales job.

In the reference above, he cites EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute)
that did a "System Compatibility Research Project". That report is
available:

http://www.epri.com/search/Pages/res...arch%20Project

The research and report covered TOV (Temporary Over Voltage) which is
totally different from surge protection. It's the type of fault that
the IEEE discussed and made clear surge protectors are not designed to
handle. Nor have they ever claimed to handle such events. TOV are
not surges, but rather long duration overvoltages
from crossed lines, bad neutrals, regulation fault on the power grid,
etc. I explained that to you several posts ago, where you misapplied
what the IEEE guide actually says.

The authors of the above article make that clear as well. Look at
what they say at the beginning of section 6. They aren't saying
that a whole house unit won't work and a plug-in will, they are
saying that all MOV based surge protectors will fail if subjected
to TOV. No one disputes that, but it says nothing about whole
house surge protectors being ineffective against *surges*, not TOV.

I also don't buy Hartford's claim that 80% of surges that you need
to be concerned about come from within the house. He cites the
example of a coffee pot turning on and off and supposedly generating
destructive surges. If that were the case, there would be millions
of appliances failing every day, everywhere. The fact that they
are not clearly suggests he's wrong. He cites that coffee
pot as the threat to be more concerned about than surges coming
in on the power line from lightning? I've had one appliance fail
in decades and that was right after a lightning storm and it was
a Tivo connected to a phone line, with no surge protector. If
coffee pots are causing destructive surges, where is the evidence?

Lastly, he takes some comments made in that study about issues
with coordinating multiple surge protectors, ie a panel one, followed
by point-of-use and how they may not always perform as expected.
I think a large problem there is that the authors of that paper
are focused on TOV, more than on surges. I'd like to see someone
ask Hartford, if lightning hit a utility pole outside his house
and a 4K volt, 5K amp surge came down the service cable, would
he rather have most of it dealt with by a surge protector at the
panel, or rely on a small one after the destructive surge was
across the house and at the appliance?

I'd also point out that the authors of the EPRI report acknowledge
the help or Francois Martzloff, who also contributed to and is cited
in the IEEE surge protection guide that I referred you to earlier.

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:18 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

These "point of use" protectors are also sacrificial...I'm not convinced
to the extent of spending $125!

They all contain an electronic device called a MOV (Metal Oxide
Varistor). Once this MOV gets zapped, it's trash. But anyone who knows
a little about electronics can replace them for a couple bucks for the
part, and a little soldering.

On 2/11/2014 2:16 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:06:22 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:51:20 PM UTC-6, Bob_Villa wrote:

You repeat yourself multiple times in this one post...you have to be desperate!

You need to sit down and relax...take a few breaths!

"Why Whole Building Surge Protectors Don't Work"
http://www.us-tech.com/RelId/1082596...27t_Work.h tm

I hope you realize that both this source and the one you cited in
your previous posts come from the same source and that source apparently
owns a business that sells alternative forms of surge supprssors. What
his company sells is different than either the common plug-ins that
you acknowledge work, or the MOV approach that is used in whole house
surge protectors. It's rather odd that you'd bring up a guy who's in
the business of selling expensive surge protector strips, $160, when
you previously made the comment about me sounding like I was giving
a sales job.

I agree. They are both sales propaganda for Zero Surge.


In the reference above, he cites EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute)
that did a "System Compatibility Research Project". That report is
available:

http://www.epri.com/search/Pages/res...arch%20Project

The research and report covered TOV (Temporary Over Voltage) which is
totally different from surge protection. It's the type of fault that
the IEEE discussed and made clear surge protectors are not designed to
handle. Nor have they ever claimed to handle such events. TOV are
not surges, but rather long duration overvoltages
from crossed lines, bad neutrals, regulation fault on the power grid,
etc. I explained that to you several posts ago, where you misapplied
what the IEEE guide actually says.

I didn't look up the article. Interesting. I have seen other Zero Surge
pieces that seriously distort reality.

Like for instance the other article. Says UL 1449 is for "older shunt
mode technology" (MOVs, which Zero Surge does not use). And their
"filter technology is covered under UL 1283 'Electromagnetic
Interference Filters.' " UL1283 is for noise filters, not surge
protectors.


The authors of the above article make that clear as well. Look at
what they say at the beginning of section 6. They aren't saying
that a whole house unit won't work and a plug-in will, they are
saying that all MOV based surge protectors will fail if subjected
to TOV. No one disputes that, but it says nothing about whole
house surge protectors being ineffective against *surges*, not TOV.

I also don't buy Hartford's claim that 80% of surges that you need
to be concerned about come from within the house.

I agree it is BS, and another red flag on the author. Perhaps BobV could
come up with a creditable source that says significant surges are
generated inside the house. BobV appears to believe it.

He cites the
example of a coffee pot turning on and off and supposedly generating
destructive surges. If that were the case, there would be millions
of appliances failing every day, everywhere. The fact that they
are not clearly suggests he's wrong. He cites that coffee
pot as the threat to be more concerned about than surges coming
in on the power line from lightning? I've had one appliance fail
in decades and that was right after a lightning storm and it was
a Tivo connected to a phone line, with no surge protector. If
coffee pots are causing destructive surges, where is the evidence?

Lastly, he takes some comments made in that study about issues
with coordinating multiple surge protectors, ie a panel one, followed
by point-of-use and how they may not always perform as expected.
I think a large problem there is that the authors of that paper
are focused on TOV, more than on surges. I'd like to see someone
ask Hartford, if lightning hit a utility pole outside his house
and a 4K volt, 5K amp surge came down the service cable, would
he rather have most of it dealt with by a surge protector at the
panel, or rely on a small one after the destructive surge was
across the house and at the appliance?

I'd also point out that the authors of the EPRI report acknowledge
the help or Francois Martzloff, who also contributed to and is cited
in the IEEE surge protection guide that I referred you to earlier.

He was the surge expert at the NIST and wrote the NIST surge guide:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/sp...%20happen!.pdf

It is another source that says service panel protectors are effective
(but not necessarily complete protection for equipment with both power
and signal connections).

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:16:35 PM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:
On 2/11/2014 2:16 PM, wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:06:22 PM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:51:20 PM UTC-6, Bob_Villa wrote:



You repeat yourself multiple times in this one post...you have to be desperate!



You need to sit down and relax...take a few breaths!



"Why Whole Building Surge Protectors Don't Work"

http://www.us-tech.com/RelId/1082596...27t_Work.h tm



I hope you realize that both this source and the one you cited in

your previous posts come from the same source and that source apparently

owns a business that sells alternative forms of surge supprssors. What

his company sells is different than either the common plug-ins that

you acknowledge work, or the MOV approach that is used in whole house

surge protectors. It's rather odd that you'd bring up a guy who's in

the business of selling expensive surge protector strips, $160, when

you previously made the comment about me sounding like I was giving

a sales job.



I agree. They are both sales propaganda for Zero Surge.





In the reference above, he cites EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute)

that did a "System Compatibility Research Project". That report is

available:



http://www.epri.com/search/Pages/res...arch%20Project



The research and report covered TOV (Temporary Over Voltage) which is

totally different from surge protection. It's the type of fault that

the IEEE discussed and made clear surge protectors are not designed to

handle. Nor have they ever claimed to handle such events. TOV are

not surges, but rather long duration overvoltages

from crossed lines, bad neutrals, regulation fault on the power grid,

etc. I explained that to you several posts ago, where you misapplied

what the IEEE guide actually says.



I didn't look up the article. Interesting. I have seen other Zero Surge

pieces that seriously distort reality.



Like for instance the other article. Says UL 1449 is for "older shunt

mode technology" (MOVs, which Zero Surge does not use). And their

"filter technology is covered under UL 1283 'Electromagnetic

Interference Filters.' " UL1283 is for noise filters, not surge

protectors.





The authors of the above article make that clear as well. Look at

what they say at the beginning of section 6. They aren't saying

that a whole house unit won't work and a plug-in will, they are

saying that all MOV based surge protectors will fail if subjected

to TOV. No one disputes that, but it says nothing about whole

house surge protectors being ineffective against *surges*, not TOV.



I also don't buy Hartford's claim that 80% of surges that you need

to be concerned about come from within the house.



I agree it is BS, and another red flag on the author. Perhaps BobV could

come up with a creditable source that says significant surges are

generated inside the house. BobV appears to believe it.



What is ironic is that his one source doesn't just say whole house
surge protectors don't work. From what I see, he's saying plug-ins
and anything else that use MOVs are also no good. But BobV has no
issue with plug-ins. It's also kind of funny from the standpoint
that BobV is saying that $125 is more than he'd spend for a whole
house protector and then he cites a guy who owns a company
selling $160 tow receptacle, plug-in ones. And that $160 plug-in
may be a fine and better surge protector than the $25 MOV type. But that
doesn't have anything to do with whole house surge protectors
being useless, which is what's claimed. And as previously stated,
anyone that cites a coffee pot turning on and off as a source of
surges that needs to be protected against, IMO is highly suspect.
I'd like to see the surge profile on the circuit from that purely
resistive load going on and off.

One interesting thing he did lead us to is this:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login...umber%3D231979

It's referenced in that EPRI study. It's an IEEE paper on
the concept of cascaded surge protectors. (I think we were discussing
that in anothe thread . They apparently looked at what happens
if you have a higher clamping voltage panel protector followed
by a lower voltage device at the protected eqpt and vice-versa.
Can't see the article without paying, but it sounds like the
results were mixed, which is not surprising.

Okay, okay...this will be my last two-cents on this...you can show me all kinds of specs and recommendations, and say how "in theory" these work (and they will work in a very specific and narrow window of lightning surge). But the "real world" data is not there...it is anecdotal at best because every situation is different.
So you either believe...or you don't! Sort of like the "wind chill" and frozen pipes thing! *L*

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:48:19 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
Okay, okay...this will be my last two-cents on this...you can show me all kinds of specs and recommendations, and say how "in theory" these work

It's not "theory". Surge protection has been well researched, modeled and
actually deployed and used in the real world for most of the last century.
It's critically important to many major industries to understand the
nature of surges, what they typically look like and how to protect
billions of dollars worth of equipment from them. Studies have been done
to find out what the typical destructive surges look like. We even have
ANSI and UL testing standards to make sure that surge protectors do
what they are supposed to do.
The IEEE panel that wrote their guide is made of up electrical engineers
with decades of experience in surge protection in the real world.


(and they will work in a very specific and narrow window of lightning surge). But the "real world" data is not there...it is anecdotal at best because every situation is different.


We have NIST, IEEE who say surge protection is possible and it
works. We also have folks at major facilities like the Telcos, cable
companies, computer facilities, etc that say you're wrong. If
surge protection was not possible, the telcos for example, with
hundreds of miles of exposed wire, would have blown up central
offices after lightning storms. That fact alone should tell you
that surge protection works. And like the IEEE recommends, they use
a tiered strategy, with the main protection being where the cables
enter the building, backed up by addional protection on the actual
line cards on the switch. That makes sense, you want to stop the
surge before it even enters the building or right at that point.
Any remaining surge is handled by smaller surge protectors at
the eqpt.

Yes, situations can be different, but the industry agrees on
the methods to protect, with the exception I guess of the one
guy you found. And whole house surge protectors don't only work in
a very specific and narrow range of lightning surge. One rated
at 20KA per line or more will cover probably 99% of surges
that a house could see. As Bud pointed out:

" As I have often posted, an investigation by the surge expert at the NIST
looked at the current that could come in on service wires. He used a
100,000A lightning strike (only 5% are stronger) and the strike was to a
utility pole in the alley behind the house with typical overhead
distribution - extremely close. This is, for practical purposes, a worst
case. The surge current to the house was 10,000A per service wire.
Service panel protectors with far higher ratings are readily available. "



So you either believe...or you don't! Sort of like the "wind chill" and frozen pipes thing! *L*

The problem is that you're inconsistent. For some reason you
believe plug-in surge protectors work and you use them. Yet you claim
that whole house ones, which are also based on MOVs are useless.
And the only cite you have for that
is the guy who owns a company making a totally different type of
surge protector and he says both the whole house and plug-ins are
useless, you should buy his. That doesn't do much to support your case.
He also cites a coffee pot turning on and off as an example of
a surge that we should apparently be concerned about. Really?
If a coffee pot is the type of surge to worry about, then what
about a 40A, 240V oven? Those should be blowing up stuff all
the time that isn't protected with a plug-in, but that sure
doesn't seem to be happening in my world. The oven isn't killing
the dishwasher, fridge, microwave, etc.

His case against whole house surge protectors apparently centers
on the fact that whole house ones typically have higher clamping
voltages, eg 700V as compared to say 400V for the plug-in ones.
From that he claims that the plug-in will take most or all of the
surge and from what I see, the only reference he has is a study
on TOV (temporary overvoltage) which is *not* a surge. That doesn't
make sense to me, because a lightning strike on a utility wire
near the house is going to present such a large surge, that the
voltage is going to exceed 700V at the panel. So, I see no
electical principle whereby that MOV would not turn on, limiting
the surge right there. Further, the plug-in one is also
separated by whatever impedance the wiring has between it and
the panel, so it's hard to believe that most of the surge is going
to bypass the panel one and go to the plug-in. And that's what you
want, not the powerful surge going into the house and then rely solely
on plug-ins, to try to deal with the surge. And what about the ovens, dishwasher, furnace, etc?

I didn't bother reading your response (because you repeat yourself so often)...waaay to long winded!
You also have the necessity to have the last word...ego or something!
"In Theory" doesn't mean it doesn't work...it's all in what instances it does or does not work.
And I have always said this is "my take" on it. So calm your jets!

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:01:43 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
I didn't bother reading your response (because you repeat yourself so often)...waaay to long winded!


Yes, typical, don't read, you might actually learn something.
As for long winded, all I do is explain the facts and cite highly
credible references in the field.



You also have the necessity to have the last word...ego or something!

Yet here you are, replying again and that doesn't have the same implication?
You don't see the irony in that?
At least Bud and I read and respond to what you post, point by point.




"In Theory" doesn't mean it doesn't work...it's all in what instances it does or does not work.

Then why did you claim:

"Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. "

Still waiting for you to tell us how practical it is to
put surge protection at an oven, dishwasher, furnace, etc as
opposed to using one at the panel. And as for cost, I can get
a 20KA whole house surge protector for $125. NIST, IEEE say
they work. What's it going to cost to buy all those plug-ins
and nstall separate wired in ones at the oven, dishwasher, furnace, AC, etc?



And I have always said this is "my take" on it. So calm your jets!

The problem is that your "take" is not supported by physics
or real world experience and when presented with direct evidence,
you won't even read it.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:34:23 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:01:43 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:

I didn't bother reading your response (because you repeat yourself so often)...waaay to long winded!





Yes, typical, don't read, you might actually learn something.

As for long winded, all I do is explain the facts and cite highly

credible references in the field.

I certainly won't learn anything here.




You also have the necessity to have the last word...ego or something!



Yet here you are, replying again and that doesn't have the same implication?

You don't see the irony in that?

At least Bud and I read and respond to what you post, point by point.

I gave you my "idea/conclusion" and you can't accept my opinion. Your problem.






"In Theory" doesn't mean it doesn't work...it's all in what instances it does or does not work.



Then why did you claim:



"Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. "


I have point of use on a computer and TV...I don't have any "internet appliances".


Still waiting for you to tell us how practical it is to

put surge protection at an oven, dishwasher, furnace, etc as

opposed to using one at the panel. And as for cost, I can get

a 20KA whole house surge protector for $125.

This not an installed cost, which is recommended.

NIST, IEEE say

they work. What's it going to cost to buy all those plug-ins

and nstall separate wired in ones at the oven, dishwasher, furnace, AC, etc?


Answered.







And I have always said this is "my take" on it. So calm your jets!



The problem is that your "take" is not supported by physics

or real world experience and when presented with direct evidence,

you won't even read it.

I have said this before, and you can't except it...you can't form any data that it works in the "real world". It is a concept that is works...and it DOES work in a specific perimeter, intensity, and duration of a surge.

I'm not paying for the added "insurance" that it "might" work.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:16:17 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:34:23 AM UTC-6, wrote:

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:01:43 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:



I didn't bother reading your response (because you repeat yourself so often)...waaay to long winded!











Yes, typical, don't read, you might actually learn something.



As for long winded, all I do is explain the facts and cite highly



credible references in the field.



I certainly won't learn anything here.



Only because you refuse to read and learn, eg IEEE, NIST guides.










You also have the necessity to have the last word...ego or something!







Yet here you are, replying again and that doesn't have the same implication?



You don't see the irony in that?



At least Bud and I read and respond to what you post, point by point.



I gave you my "idea/conclusion" and you can't accept my opinion. Your problem.


An opinion that is not based on sound science, engineering, etc
and that you can't even explain isn't worth much. It would be like
someone giving an opinion that you can use 18 gauge wire on 15 amp circuits
in your house. See how that works?
















"In Theory" doesn't mean it doesn't work...it's all in what instances it does or does not work.







Then why did you claim:







"Whole house surge protection is pointless and costly...protect the individual items that need it at each point of use. "





I have point of use on a computer and TV...I don't have any "internet appliances".



No idea what you're talking about with that response. Who
said anything about internet appliances?






Still waiting for you to tell us how practical it is to



put surge protection at an oven, dishwasher, furnace, etc as



opposed to using one at the panel. And as for cost, I can get



a 20KA whole house surge protector for $125.



This not an installed cost, which is recommended.


Lots of us here can DIY. It's typically an easy install
as long as you have a spot for a double breaker. And
if you can't, an electrician should charge for an hour
service call. Then everything in your house is protected
on the AC side. Today most homes have a lot of appliances,
many wired in, eg ovens, stoves, dishwasher, furnaces that
have electronics in them.





NIST, IEEE say



they work. What's it going to cost to buy all those plug-ins



and nstall separate wired in ones at the oven, dishwasher, furnace, AC, etc?





Answered.


No, you haven't explained how you protect the oven, dishwasher,
furnace, AC, etc and what that will cost compared to a whole house
surge protector.

















And I have always said this is "my take" on it. So calm your jets!







The problem is that your "take" is not supported by physics



or real world experience and when presented with direct evidence,



you won't even read it.



I have said this before, and you can't except it...you can't form any data that it works in the "real world". It is a concept that is works...and it DOES work in a specific perimeter, intensity, and duration of a surge.


BS. Again, you refuse to read. Engineers with decades of experience
researching real world surges and how to deal with them wrote the
IEEE and NIST guides. Of course there is real world data going back
most of the past century on how to deal with lightning and surges.
It's been well researched, with protection routinely deployed at Telcos,
cable companies, power companies, computer facilities... You think
they all use plug-ins?




I'm not paying for the added "insurance" that it "might" work.

But you have no problem paying for the added insurance that a plug-in
surge protector "might" work? If you have a lightning strike at the
utility wires near your house and a 5000V, 1000A surge comes down
the wire, where does it make more sense to divert it? At the panel
before it even gets into the house wiring? Or at the two plug-ins
you have that protect the TV and PC, hopefully protecting those,
and doing nothing about what the surge may do to the rest of the house?

All you're after here is the last word for yourself (which I'm sure you'll take) be content with your "whole house" surge suppression mystique.

On 2/12/2014 11:45 AM, wrote:

What is ironic is that his one source doesn't just say whole house
surge protectors don't work. From what I see, he's saying plug-ins
and anything else that use MOVs are also no good.

Since Zero Surge does not use MOVs, their propaganda discounts them
(sometimes with really ignorant arguments).

But BobV has no
issue with plug-ins. It's also kind of funny from the standpoint
that BobV is saying that $125 is more than he'd spend for a whole
house protector and then he cites a guy who owns a company
selling $160 tow receptacle, plug-in ones. And that $160 plug-in
may be a fine and better surge protector than the $25 MOV type. But that
doesn't have anything to do with whole house surge protectors
being useless, which is what's claimed.

And as previously stated,
anyone that cites a coffee pot turning on and off as a source of
surges that needs to be protected against, IMO is highly suspect.

It is one of the more ignorant Zero Surge arguments.

I'd like to see the surge profile on the circuit from that purely
resistive load going on and off.

One interesting thing he did lead us to is this:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login...umber%3D231979

It's referenced in that EPRI study. It's an IEEE paper on
the concept of cascaded surge protectors. (I think we were discussing
that in anothe thread . They apparently looked at what happens
if you have a higher clamping voltage panel protector followed
by a lower voltage device at the protected eqpt and vice-versa.
Can't see the article without paying, but it sounds like the
results were mixed, which is not surprising.

One of the authors was Martzloff. He has created an anthology of many of
his papers at NIST.gov. This one is at
http://pml.nist.gov/spd-anthology/fi...ation_1993.pdf
FREE

There are a lot of other Martzloff papers there.

wrote in message
...
buy his. That doesn't do much to support your case.
He also cites a coffee pot turning on and off as an example of
a surge that we should apparently be concerned about. Really?
If a coffee pot is the type of surge to worry about, then what
about a 40A, 240V oven? Those should be blowing up stuff all
the time that isn't protected with a plug-in, but that sure
doesn't seem to be happening in my world. The oven isn't killing
the dishwasher, fridge, microwave, etc.


I am sure that the coffee pot off and on will not cause problems in a normal
house.

At work we did have some problems with resistive heating loads turning off
and on causing problems. They were big 480 volt 300 amp loads. Using zero
crossing triac or scr devices and cycling several times a minuite.

We never did a wave form check , but wh had to put some isolation reactors
on the PLC controllers for the process as they could not handle the voltages
fluctuating from all of this.
Also some regular PC type computers had to have some UPS on them so they
ewould not reboot from time to time.

I doubt simple MOVs would help because the voltage under shot as much as it
over shot.

I do remember growing up and when the refrigerator would start up the TV
picture would srink to about half size.



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On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 10:30:34 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

All you're after here is the last word for yourself (which I'm sure you'll take) be content with your "whole house" surge suppression mystique.

All you're after here is that it doesn't work.

Show me the money!