Well, another new fun future project to look forward to - just happened today. Any ideas what could be causing this?

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours. There's no leak around the base or anywhere else I can see. Will check it out from the crawl space below tomorrow.

Bowl with no flash
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/268/hyk9.jpg

Bowl with flash
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/585/0owq.jpg

Tank
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/89/9esv.jpg

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:36:16 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Well, another new fun future project to look forward to - just happ
ened today. Any ideas what could be causing this?

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not
been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's
leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And
the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours. There's no leak
around the base or anywhere else I can see. Will check it out from the
crawl space below tomorrow.


--------

Sounds to me the flush valve needs replacement. That's the plunger
device on the end of the rod or chain connected to the flush handle.
The rubber gets bad, and it stains the toilet. Also causes water t ogo
down. Touch it, I bet it will turn yiour hand black. Replace it, it's
cheap and easy to replace.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 03:11:52 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:36:16 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Well, another new fun future project to look forward to - just happ
ened today. Any ideas what could be causing this?

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not
been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's
leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And
the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours.

For how long? What's the maximum total level drop?

There's no leak
around the base or anywhere else I can see. Will check it out from the
crawl space below tomorrow.

Unless you're in Hawaii, it's tomorrow already. We havent' heard back
from you.


Sounds to me the flush valve needs replacement. That's the plunger
device on the end of the rod or chain connected to the flush handle.

Isnt' that the flapper? Isn't the flush valve somewhere directly above
the input pipe, and connected to the float?

The rubber gets bad, and it stains the toilet.

True.

Also causes water t ogo down.

It does?


Touch it, I bet it will turn yiour hand black. Replace it, it's
cheap and easy to replace.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:53:50 -0500, micky
wrote in

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not
been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's
leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And
the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours.

The level in the bowl is dropping 1/4 inch? Sounds like a crack in
the lower part of the bowl where it meets the drain.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

On 1/27/2014 7:12 AM, CRNG wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:53:50 -0500, micky
wrote in

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not
been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's
leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And
the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours.

The level in the bowl is dropping 1/4 inch? Sounds like a crack in
the lower part of the bowl where it meets the drain.

I'll add: so the water in the bowl is now going straight down the
drain, bypassing the trap part of the toilet. BTW, unrelated, but
maybe it is. I had a toilet that the flushing got slower and slower and
eventually the water just swirled in the bowl. There was a crack,
actually a hole, so that much of the water from the tank, was going
straight down the drain bypassing the bowl.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:53:50 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 03:11:52 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:36:16 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Well, another new fun future project to look forward to - just happ
ened today. Any ideas what could be causing this?

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not
been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's
leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And
the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours.

For how long? What's the maximum total level drop?

There's no leak
around the base or anywhere else I can see. Will check it out from the
crawl space below tomorrow.

Unless you're in Hawaii, it's tomorrow already. We havent' heard back
from you.


Sounds to me the flush valve needs replacement. That's the plunger
device on the end of the rod or chain connected to the flush handle.

Isnt' that the flapper? Isn't the flush valve somewhere directly above
the input pipe, and connected to the float?

I retract that last question and apologize.

The rubber gets bad, and it stains the toilet.

True.

Also causes water t ogo down.

It does?


Touch it, I bet it will turn yiour hand black. Replace it, it's
cheap and easy to replace.

"micky" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 06:53:50 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 03:11:52 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:36:16 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Well, another new fun future project to look forward to - just happ
ened today. Any ideas what could be causing this?

The water level in the bowl has always been constant and has not
been leaving any dark trails from water coming from the tank. Now it's
leaving dark trails if it sits without flushing for a few hours. And
the level is dropping about 1/4-inch every 2-3 hours.

For how long? What's the maximum total level drop?

There's no leak
around the base or anywhere else I can see. Will check it out from the
crawl space below tomorrow.

Unless you're in Hawaii, it's tomorrow already. We havent' heard back
from you.


Sounds to me the flush valve needs replacement. That's the plunger
device on the end of the rod or chain connected to the flush handle.

Isnt' that the flapper? Isn't the flush valve somewhere directly above
the input pipe, and connected to the float?

I retract that last question and apologize.

The rubber gets bad, and it stains the toilet.

True.

Also causes water t ogo down.

It does?


Touch it, I bet it will turn yiour hand black. Replace it, it's
cheap and easy to replace.

Thanks all, there is no problem. As soon as the bowl fills and the valve shuts off, the level drops about 1/4-inch until it reaches the level shown here in blue:

http://imageshack.com/a/img577/1920/rpef.gif

Thanks to the folks at....
http://friedmanplumbing.com/services...-toilet-works/

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:11:09 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Thanks all, there is no problem. As soon as the bowl fills and the valve shuts off, the level drops about 1/4-inch until it reaches the level shown here in blue:

http://imageshack.com/a/img577/1920/rpef.gif

Remove the valve filler tube on the overflow tube, pour some muriatic
acid down the overflow tube using a plastic funnel (quart+) - leave
the room. Next hour...

The bowl rim / jets have cooties inside. Colors are not important at
this point. Collective cooties inside the bowl rim are causing the
stains.

On a septic system or cast iron sewer lines, use baking soda to
neutralize the acid before you flush. Brush the bowl before you add
the soda - under the bowl rim

The black stains in the bowl, are / is from the jets dripping down, do
not necessarily mean the cooties are from rubber in the tank or from
the flapper.

At least a hundred threads here 'bout it.

"Oren" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:11:09 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Thanks all, there is no problem. As soon as the bowl fills and the valve shuts off, the level drops about 1/4-inch until it reaches the level shown here in blue:

http://imageshack.com/a/img577/1920/rpef.gif

Remove the valve filler tube on the overflow tube, pour some muriatic
acid down the overflow tube using a plastic funnel (quart+) - leave
the room. Next hour...

The bowl rim / jets have cooties inside. Colors are not important at
this point. Collective cooties inside the bowl rim are causing the
stains.

On a septic system or cast iron sewer lines, use baking soda to
neutralize the acid before you flush. Brush the bowl before you add
the soda - under the bowl rim

The black stains in the bowl, are / is from the jets dripping down, do
not necessarily mean the cooties are from rubber in the tank or from
the flapper.

At least a hundred threads here 'bout it.

Thanks Oren. What about pouring a bottle of CLR type liquid instead of muriatic?

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:07:25 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:11:09 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Thanks all, there is no problem. As soon as the bowl fills and the valve shuts off, the level drops about 1/4-inch until it reaches the level shown here in blue:

http://imageshack.com/a/img577/1920/rpef.gif

Remove the valve filler tube on the overflow tube, pour some muriatic
acid down the overflow tube using a plastic funnel (quart+) - leave
the room. Next hour...

The bowl rim / jets have cooties inside. Colors are not important at
this point. Collective cooties inside the bowl rim are causing the
stains.

On a septic system or cast iron sewer lines, use baking soda to
neutralize the acid before you flush. Brush the bowl before you add
the soda - under the bowl rim

The black stains in the bowl, are / is from the jets dripping down, do
not necessarily mean the cooties are from rubber in the tank or from
the flapper.

At least a hundred threads here 'bout it.

Thanks Oren. What about pouring a bottle of CLR type liquid instead of muriatic?

Never tried CLR myself, but no harm no foul. Get it a try. One poster
I recall, saying he used The Works with good results.

http://www.theworkscleans.com/toiletcleaner.html

I'd give either one more time to work in the bowl rim - maybe a couple
of hours. Let us know.

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:08:39 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:07:25 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:11:09 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

Thanks all, there is no problem. As soon as the bowl fills and the valve shuts off, the level drops about 1/4-inch until it reaches the level shown here in blue:

http://imageshack.com/a/img577/1920/rpef.gif

Remove the valve filler tube on the overflow tube, pour some muriatic
acid down the overflow tube using a plastic funnel (quart+) - leave
the room. Next hour...

The bowl rim / jets have cooties inside. Colors are not important at
this point. Collective cooties inside the bowl rim are causing the
stains.

On a septic system or cast iron sewer lines, use baking soda to
neutralize the acid before you flush. Brush the bowl before you add
the soda - under the bowl rim

The black stains in the bowl, are / is from the jets dripping down, do
not necessarily mean the cooties are from rubber in the tank or from
the flapper.

At least a hundred threads here 'bout it.

Thanks Oren. What about pouring a bottle of CLR type liquid instead of muriatic?

Never tried CLR myself, but no harm no foul. Get it a try. One poster
I recall, saying he used The Works with good results.

I think there are two versions of the Works

Found some at a dollar store and thought, what a great deal since it's
usually over 2 or 3 dollars.

Bought a bunch, and it's a total liquid. Red the label and though it
says corrosive and is real scarey about getting the stuff in one's eyes
or on the skin, it says nothing about "acidic.",

Worth the dollar I'm sure, and I will use it all eventually, but not the
big bargain I thought it was.

http://www.theworkscleans.com/toiletcleaner.html

I'd give either one more time to work in the bowl rim - maybe a couple
of hours. Let us know.

I didn't read every post in this thread, but dropping toilet bowl levels are usually caused by the main drain line being partially clogged with solids (mostly from the kitchen sink).

For example, if you add a toilet in your basement (if you have a basement) no plumbing code in the world is going to expect you to install another vent stack in your house for that toilet. That's because sewer gas is smelly, but it's not poisonous, so the worst that can happen is that your bathroom smells like an outhouse.

If you add a toilet in your basement, all you have to do is connect the toilet drain line to the main drain line coming off the bottom of the vent stack. If that main drain line is partially clogged then when you flush the basement toilet, that toilet's drain pipe get's filled with water (cuz of the partial blockage). Now, as that water seeps away past the partial blockage, it creates suction behind it, which in turn sucks the water out of the toilet bowl.

To check to see if this is happening, flush the toilet, and then once the bowl has finished filling, shove a flexible tube through the water passage way of the toilet bowl and blow into that tube to clear it of any water. That way, any partial vaccuum in the drain pipe will be filled by air flowing through the tube.

If the water level doesn't drop with the tube in place, then you know it was a partial vaccuum in that toilet's drain pipe that caused the water level in the bowl to drop, and there wouldn't be a partial vaccuum if there wasn't a blockage of some degree in the drain piping the toilet water flows through.

I don't know what's causing the black marks, but if bleach removes them, then they're organic.

I wouldn't pour muriatic acid into the toilet tank's over flow spout. Not ALL of the rim holes are going to be blocked, and so most of that acid is just going to leak into the bowl. I would use a mirror and dental pick to clear each hole manually. It's awkward, but it's not very difficult.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 04:46:21 +0100, nestork
wrote:

I wouldn't pour muriatic acid into the toilet tank's over flow spout.

I do it and have many times at multiple properties.

Not ALL of the rim holes are going to be blocked, and so most of that
acid is just going to leak into the bowl.

They may not be completely blocked but you can bet that minerals build
up inside the rim and above the jets. Essentially, minerals make a dam
around the jets inside the bowl rim. Restricting the full flow of
water that helps create the flush vortex swirl. The restriction
causes a "slow flush". This can also stagnate water in areas of the
rim causing the cooties that make the stains on the wall of the bowl.

To prevent the acid from flowing out; into the bowl immediately, get
out your handy dandy super redneck duct tape **. Under the rim, tape
the rim jets to close them up (few long pieces of tape). The acid
stays in the rim, eating away the minerals faster.

And. By removing all the water from the bowl (sacrificial turkey
baster), acid can be used to clean mineral build in the large jet in
the bottom of the bowl.

I would use a mirror and dental pick to clear each hole manually. It's awkward, but it's not
very difficult.

True. Yet, you may not get the minerals that are dammed up inside the
rim - around the jets. Canadian mileage may vary

**
http://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/6729233/il_570xN.330584099.jpg

But, Oren, you also have to plug up that large jet hole at the bottom of the bowl as well. Otherwise the acid will just leak out there instead.

I'm thinking that a good way to use acid in a situation like this is to take the tank off the bowl, take the bowl off the floor and set that bowl on it's side on a sturdy plastic basin of some sort. (I don't think a 5 gallon pail would be stable enough.) Now pour just enough acid directly into the bowl so that the acid fully covers the jet holes. Then just rotate the bowl every so often so that the acid clears all the jet holes around the entire rim.

Or, at least, if the bowl was already off the floor flange, I'd probably try that. But, if I did, I'd also be working away at those jet holes with a dental pick and a mirror to help the acid work by exposing undissolved material.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:39:07 +0100, nestork
wrote:


'Oren[_2_ Wrote:
;3190709']
To prevent the acid from flowing out; into the bowl immediately, get
out your handy dandy super redneck duct tape **. Under the rim, tape
the rim jets to close them up (few long pieces of tape). The acid
stays in the rim, eating away the minerals faster.

And. By removing all the water from the bowl (sacrificial turkey
baster), acid can be used to clean mineral build in the large jet in
the bottom of the bowl.


But, Oren, you also have to plug up that large jet hole at the bottom of
the bowl as well. Otherwise the acid will just leak out there instead.

I'm thinking that a good way to use acid in a situation like this is to
take the tank off the bowl, take the bowl off the floor and set that
bowl on it's side on a sturdy plastic basin of some sort. (I don't
think a 5 gallon pail would be stable enough.) Now pour just enough
acid directly into the bowl so that the acid fully covers the jet holes.
Then just rotate the bowl every so often so that the acid clears all
the jet holes around the entire rim.

Or, at least, if the bowl was already off the floor flange, I'd probably
try that. But, if I did, I'd also be working away at those jet holes
with a dental pick and a mirror to help the acid work by exposing
undissolved material.

I suppose it depends on the method of your madness. If I remove the
toilet; tank intact, move the whole thing outside and go at it is more
work. My opinion is cleaning the rim jets and the main jet passage
at the bottom - would be to perform the acid cleaning while the toilet
is in place and mounted. Easier for me.

It does not require me to disassemble the toilet, fuss and bother with
making sure it does not leak later. O a chance of dropping or causing
cracks in the toilet tank or bowl.

Acid down the overflow tube will essentially remove the mineral
deposits inside the toilet in the minimal amount of time - one hour.

There is more than one way to "skin a cat"

Gander at this link. Others; besides myself, have used this method. I
prefer the acid fix verses a dental pick and mirror. A few posters
here have done it.

http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

"Oren" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 23:39:07 +0100, nestork
wrote:


'Oren[_2_ Wrote:
;3190709']
To prevent the acid from flowing out; into the bowl immediately, get
out your handy dandy super redneck duct tape **. Under the rim, tape
the rim jets to close them up (few long pieces of tape). The acid
stays in the rim, eating away the minerals faster.

And. By removing all the water from the bowl (sacrificial turkey
baster), acid can be used to clean mineral build in the large jet in
the bottom of the bowl.


But, Oren, you also have to plug up that large jet hole at the bottom of
the bowl as well. Otherwise the acid will just leak out there instead.

I'm thinking that a good way to use acid in a situation like this is to
take the tank off the bowl, take the bowl off the floor and set that
bowl on it's side on a sturdy plastic basin of some sort. (I don't
think a 5 gallon pail would be stable enough.) Now pour just enough
acid directly into the bowl so that the acid fully covers the jet holes.
Then just rotate the bowl every so often so that the acid clears all
the jet holes around the entire rim.

Or, at least, if the bowl was already off the floor flange, I'd probably
try that. But, if I did, I'd also be working away at those jet holes
with a dental pick and a mirror to help the acid work by exposing
undissolved material.

I suppose it depends on the method of your madness. If I remove the
toilet; tank intact, move the whole thing outside and go at it is more
work. My opinion is cleaning the rim jets and the main jet passage
at the bottom - would be to perform the acid cleaning while the toilet
is in place and mounted. Easier for me.

It does not require me to disassemble the toilet, fuss and bother with
making sure it does not leak later. O a chance of dropping or causing
cracks in the toilet tank or bowl.

Acid down the overflow tube will essentially remove the mineral
deposits inside the toilet in the minimal amount of time - one hour.

There is more than one way to "skin a cat"

Gander at this link. Others; besides myself, have used this method. I
prefer the acid fix verses a dental pick and mirror. A few posters
here have done it.

http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

I have always used a Chloral product (don't remember the name) that come in a plastic bottle. You hold the bottle upside down in the bowl so that the neck is angled up toward the holes under the rib. Squeeze it and coat the under side of the rim, let it sit, then scrub with a plastic brush and flush. Never needed to use a coat hanger or other ways to clean them out.

Next time I'll try pouring vinegar down the overflow tube and leaving it over night.

Alternatively, maybe try:
1. Scoop out the water in the bowl with an empty tin can or wax paper cup and finish up with a sponge.
2. Stick a small wad of Plumber's Putty in the jet hole at the bottom of the bowl.
3. Pour a whole bottle of acid based (phosphoric or hydrochloric) toilet bowl cleaner down the overflow spout. Toilet bowl cleaners are gelled so that they stick to smooth steep surfaces better, but that also means that they flow very much more slowly than ungelled acid.
4. As the acid collects in the bottom of the toilet bowl, set a funnel in the toilet tank's overflow spout. Collect the acid in the bowl with a plastic scoop of some sort and pour it back into the overflow spout.
5. Brush underside of bowl rim periodically to open up the rim holes with the brush bristles.

Keep scooping the acid out of the bowl and into the overflow spout for a day or two, and all of the rim holes should be wide open.

(I'd also consider plugging the rim holes that are clear and seeping acid with something very viscous, but which will dissolve in water, like honey, Nutella or even toothpaste.)

Toilet bowl cleaners are typically coloured so that you can easily see where the acid is and isn't. So, you should be able to see which rim holes are seeping acid out and which aren't.

Neither phosphoric acid nor hydrochloric acid will harm the glazed or unglazed porcelain of the toilet bowl; even if left on for long periods.