Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:35:58 AM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes?

It all depends how intent you are to freeze them...best of luck!

On 1/20/2014 7:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.


The routine here is to surround mobile home with straw bales, leave
faucets running at a trickle, leave cabinet doors open. Good luck.

On 01/20/2014 06:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.




It was stated numerous times that water freezes at 32 degrees F


and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...
the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.


Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 7:16:11 AM UTC-6, philo* wrote:

and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...

the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.

Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.

This is too logical for this thread/forum/poster...please take your common sense elsewhere! 8^)

On 01/20/2014 07:33 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2014 7:16:11 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:

and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...

the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.

Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.

This is too logical for this thread/forum/poster...please take your common sense elsewhere! 8^)




Yeah I know.


Maybe we should discuss windshield temp.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 8:16:11 AM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 01/20/2014 06:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts

up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.



Will the wind chill make it more likely for me

to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?



When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,

should I leave a faucet dripping?



Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a

cold drip?



What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think

we all on the list agreed about our answers.



I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.









It was stated numerous times that water freezes at 32 degrees F





and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...

the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.





Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.

It's been stated numerous times that wind chill also affects how
heat is removed from any object that is above ambient temp.
And hence on a night when the
windchill is 5F and the actual outdoor temp is 25, pipes may freeze
in certain circumstances when they will not freeze if it were 25F
with no windchill.

Simple question. There is an unheated cabin or a house with
a drafty crawlspace. Two cases:

A - The forecast if for temps overnight to dip down to 25, no windchill.

B - The forecast is for temps overnight to dip down to 25, 5F windchill.

That's all the info you have.

Do you believe the probability of water pipes freezing is equal in
both cases, yes or no?

BTW, thanks for taking the obvious bait from Stormin and starting this all
over again.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 8:11:13 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Simple question. There is an unheated cabin or a house with

a drafty crawlspace. Two cases:



A - The forecast if for temps overnight to dip down to 25, no windchill.



B - The forecast is for temps overnight to dip down to 25, 5F windchill.



That's all the info you have.



Do you believe the probability of water pipes freezing is equal in

both cases, yes or no?



BTW, thanks for taking the obvious bait from Stormin and starting this all

over again.

It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.
BTW, you have also taken the bait! *L*

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:11:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



It's been stated numerous times that wind chill also affects how
heat is removed from any object that is above ambient temp.
And hence on a night when the
windchill is 5F and the actual outdoor temp is 25, pipes may freeze
in certain circumstances when they will not freeze if it were 25F
with no windchill.

Simple question. There is an unheated cabin or a house with
a drafty crawlspace. Two cases:

A - The forecast if for temps overnight to dip down to 25, no windchill.

B - The forecast is for temps overnight to dip down to 25, 5F windchill.

That's all the info you have.

Do you believe the probability of water pipes freezing is equal in
both cases, yes or no?

BTW, thanks for taking the obvious bait from Stormin and starting this all
over again.

Windchill and wind are not the same thing. Windchill is a calculation
of the effect of wind on human skin and should be reserved for
discussing that effect. As you point out, however, wind affects other
things. Not by the evaporative effect skin is vulnerable to, but by
warm air being moved away to be replaced by cold air. In your example
above, of course the pipes could be more likely to freeze if the wind
can get to the pipes because it could lower the pipe temperature to
25. But that doesn't mean the willchill number (5F in your example)
means anything to pipes. Use another example of 40 degree air on a
very windy day. The windchill might be well below freezing, but the
pipes will never freeze because no amount of wind can lower the
temperature of a dry pipe to below the 40 degree air temperature.

Use windchill only when discussing the feel on your skin. But sealing
your house to protecting pipes from the cold air blown in by the wind
is a very good idea.

On 1/20/2014 7:55 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2014 6:35:58 AM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes?

It all depends how intent you are to freeze them...best of luck!

Life is made memorable by what goes wrong.
OTOH, boring can be good thing. I'd rather
be warm and bored indoors, compared to using
a heat gun in +2F cold wind.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/20/2014 7:59 AM, Norminn wrote:

The routine here is to surround mobile home with straw bales, leave
faucets running at a trickle, leave cabinet doors open. Good luck.

If the pipes freeze, close the cabinet doors
and light the bales on fire?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/20/2014 8:33 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2014 7:16:11 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:

and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...

the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.

Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.

This is too logical for this thread/forum/
poster...please take your common sense else
where! 8^)


By golly, that means stuff won't freeze over 32F?
Really? Supposed to get into the single digits in
the next couple days.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/20/2014 8:16 AM, philo wrote:
On 01/20/2014 06:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.




It was stated numerous times that water freezes at 32 degrees F


and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...
the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.


Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.




But..........in windier conditions, a structure that isn't sealed up
tight would likely get colder inside than it would without wind.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 5:16:11 AM UTC-8, philo* wrote:
On 01/20/2014 06:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:


snip

It was stated numerous times that water freezes at 32 degrees F
and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...
the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.

Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.

And if that pipe is kept wet and exposed to the breeze?

Harry K

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.

You are the Southbound end of a Northbound horse! You just had to
rattle trader4's cage again didn't you? Karma is gonna get you!

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.
Buy a couple of those "quebec garages" and a few rolls of gorilla
tape. Set the garages up over your trailer to keep the wind off,
taping them together with gorilla tape to make one BIG garage. Then
leave a window open in the trailer to let some heat into the garage to
keep it above 33F, and your pipes won't freeze. Make it long enough
to park your Blazer inside too, and let it run to keep warm. The
exhaust will put you to sleep so you won't feel the cold.

How's that for an Allegheny redneck solution???

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 10:24:32 -0500, Norminn
wrote:

On 1/20/2014 8:16 AM, philo wrote:
On 01/20/2014 06:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.




It was stated numerous times that water freezes at 32 degrees F


and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...
the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.


Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.




But..........in windier conditions, a structure that isn't sealed up
tight would likely get colder inside than it would without wind.
Stormy's "redneck bungalow" will loose heat a lot faster in the wind
than on a still day of the same temperature.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 9:23:00 AM UTC-5, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2014 8:11:13 AM UTC-6, wrote:



Simple question. There is an unheated cabin or a house with



a drafty crawlspace. Two cases:







A - The forecast if for temps overnight to dip down to 25, no windchill.







B - The forecast is for temps overnight to dip down to 25, 5F windchill.







That's all the info you have.







Do you believe the probability of water pipes freezing is equal in



both cases, yes or no?







BTW, thanks for taking the obvious bait from Stormin and starting this all



over again.



It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.

You failed the test. The question was about *freezing*, not bursting.



BTW, you have also taken the bait! *L*

No, I only responded after philo decided to start this discussion
all over again. I saw the other responses and was going to say nothing
to start it up again, as did other posters. But if philo wants to
go over it again, then here we are.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 9:32:58 AM UTC-5, Pat wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:11:13 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:







It's been stated numerous times that wind chill also affects how

heat is removed from any object that is above ambient temp.

And hence on a night when the

windchill is 5F and the actual outdoor temp is 25, pipes may freeze

in certain circumstances when they will not freeze if it were 25F

with no windchill.



Simple question. There is an unheated cabin or a house with

a drafty crawlspace. Two cases:



A - The forecast if for temps overnight to dip down to 25, no windchill.



B - The forecast is for temps overnight to dip down to 25, 5F windchill.



That's all the info you have.



Do you believe the probability of water pipes freezing is equal in

both cases, yes or no?



BTW, thanks for taking the obvious bait from Stormin and starting this all

over again.



Windchill and wind are not the same thing.

No one ever said they were. But windchill together with temp are
a proxy for windspeed.


Windchill is a calculation

of the effect of wind on human skin and should be reserved for

discussing that effect. As you point out, however, wind affects other

things. Not by the evaporative effect skin is vulnerable to,

It's not primarily an evaporative effect on skin, unless you think people sweat
when it's 15F out. Wind produces it's chill by taking more heat away
from any object that's above ambient. That includes not only humans,
but other objects as well.

but by

warm air being moved away to be replaced by cold air.

Which is the same effect that windchill has on humans, a hot brick
placed outside, or a metal pipe sticking outside a wall. YEs, it
was created as a guide to how much colder it feels to humans, but
that doesn't mean it's effect doesn't apply to cats, bricks and pipes.



In your example

above, of course the pipes could be more likely to freeze if the wind

can get to the pipes because it could lower the pipe temperature to

25. But that doesn't mean the willchill number (5F in your example)

means anything to pipes.

It does if it's a warm pipe and it's placed outside. I have a copper
water pipe that's exposed and it runs 25 ft outside. I have some
small amount of water flow moving through it to prevent it from
freezing. Do you think the same amount of water flow that's just
sufficient to keep it from freezing when it's 20F and no windchill is
going to be sufficient to keep it from freezing when the windchill is
0F? If I told you that the windchill was 20F or 0F you would not
be more concerned about the pipe freezing in one situation versus
the other?




Use another example of 40 degree air on a

very windy day. The windchill might be well below freezing, but the

pipes will never freeze because no amount of wind can lower the

temperature of a dry pipe to below the 40 degree air temperature.



Neither I nor anyone else here ever said that windchill can cool a pipe
below ambient.


Use windchill only when discussing the feel on your skin. But sealing

your house to protecting pipes from the cold air blown in by the wind

is a very good idea.

The fact that you don't understand that windchill has a similar effect on
objects other than humans doesn't mean it's not valuable information
that can be used in other situations. I noticed you didn't give an
answer to the simple questions posed either.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 10:51:49 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2014 5:16:11 AM UTC-8, philo* wrote:

On 01/20/2014 06:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:





snip



It was stated numerous times that water freezes at 32 degrees F

and if the temp is above 32F no matter what the wind chill is...

the temp is still above 32F and the pipes will not freeze.



Wind chill is nothing more than how the body perceives the temperature.



And if that pipe is kept wet and exposed to the breeze?



Harry K

I was thinking of saying something along those lines too, but
didn't want to complicate it. I agree, evaporative effect of
cooling is going to increase with windchill. But even
in humans, I don't think the primary cooling effect is evaporation,
unless you believe people's exposed skin sweats when it's 15F.
In the winter temps
when windchill is most frequently used, I would think the main
component is that wind removes more heat from a human just like it
would more quickly remove heat from a hot brick placed outside.

In fact, in the other long thread on this, someone pointed out that
long ago when scientists first tried to come up with a windchill index,
they used water bottles exposed outside and how fast they froze.
Strange, if windchill only affects humans, how you can measure it
by how long it takes to freeze a bottle of water.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 12:37:18 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts

up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.



Will the wind chill make it more likely for me

to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?



When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,

should I leave a faucet dripping?



Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a

cold drip?



What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think

we all on the list agreed about our answers.



I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.



You are the Southbound end of a Northbound horse! You just had to

rattle trader4's cage again didn't you? Karma is gonna get you!

He didn't rattle my cage. The first response from a rattled cage
was from philo. Everyone up to that point, had ignored it.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

If your pipes don't perspire or leak, if they're not wet on the outside,
wind chill is not a factor. It doesn't exist for pipes that are not
wet on the outside. Even though plenty of people talk like it does.

It doesn't exist for cars, either, unless they are wet on the outside.
Not "were wet" but "are wet".

It exists for people, who perspire, a little bit everywhere I think.
The wind blows across the wet skin, even so slightly wet that it doesn't
feel wet, and the water draws heat from the skin as it evaporates.
The quantity of heat needed to make water evaporate, the heat of
vaporization, is the same as the heat required to raise the temperature
of the same amount of water by 15 or 20 degrees, iirc. It's the same
amount of heat needed by water about to boil on a stove, to go from
water to water vapor, although I guess one cannot tell by looking how
much heat that is.

I don't know about other animals. Dogs pant, but do they in very cold
weather? Probably not, and I've never heard of a dog's tongue freezing
because of wind chill. They probably keep their tongues in their
mouths.


When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,

The wind doesn't matter, but the 0F does.

should I leave a faucet dripping?

If it is actually zero where the pipe is, yes.

LIke under the trailer maybe, where it's not heated? What do other
people with trailers do? If you live in a trailer park, you'd find more
people who know abou tthis there than you willl here. Or at least they
should know what they do and what happens to their pipes when they do
it. Even if you don't live in one, go visit one and ask them. Isn't
there usually a manager. He should know what to do.

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

Whichever pipe is exposed to the very cold temperature. Both of them,
if that is the case.

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.

Perhaps, but that won't cause the pipes to freeze.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:23:00 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:


It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.

How can that be. Water expands iirc between 33 and 32^F. So it
reaches its greatest volume at 32. What does 20 have to do with it?

I know that warmer things surrounding the water continue to heat the
water, but that's only if the things are warmer. They are losing heat
too for the same reason the water is.

BTW, you have also taken the bait! *L*

micky wrote:

....snip...

I don't know about other animals. Dogs pant, but do they in very cold
weather? Probably not, and I've never heard of a dog's tongue freezing
because of wind chill. They probably keep their tongues in their
mouths.

Not my pug! His tongue is almost always hanging out his mouth, from as
little as an inch to as much as 4".

I don't know about windchill, but I do know that his tongue will stick to a
cold metal pole if he gets too close.

This isn't my dog, but I've seen this situation in real life more than
once.

https://d2npbuaakacvlz.cloudfront.ne...1355973015.jpg

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 14:14:33 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

If your pipes don't perspire or leak, if they're not wet on the outside,
wind chill is not a factor. It doesn't exist for pipes that are not
wet on the outside. Even though plenty of people talk like it does.

It doesn't exist for cars, either, unless they are wet on the outside.
Not "were wet" but "are wet".

It exists for people, who perspire, a little bit everywhere I think.
The wind blows across the wet skin, even so slightly wet that it doesn't
feel wet, and the water draws heat from the skin as it evaporates.
The quantity of heat needed to make water evaporate, the heat of
vaporization, is the same as the heat required to raise the temperature
of the same amount of water by 15 or 20 degrees, iirc. It's the same
amount of heat needed by water about to boil on a stove, to go from
water to water vapor, although I guess one cannot tell by looking how
much heat that is.

I don't know about other animals. Dogs pant, but do they in very cold
weather? Probably not, and I've never heard of a dog's tongue freezing
because of wind chill. They probably keep their tongues in their
mouths.


When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,

The wind doesn't matter, but the 0F does.

should I leave a faucet dripping?

If it is actually zero where the pipe is, yes.

LIke under the trailer maybe, where it's not heated? What do other
people with trailers do? If you live in a trailer park, you'd find more
people who know abou tthis there than you willl here. Or at least they
should know what they do and what happens to their pipes when they do
it. Even if you don't live in one, go visit one and ask them. Isn't
there usually a manager. He should know what to do.

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

Whichever pipe is exposed to the very cold temperature. Both of them,
if that is the case.

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.

Perhaps, but that won't cause the pipes to freeze.
Wind chill is not just about evaporation. It is "removal of heat"
period. On a human body it is how quickly the body gets below it's
normal temperature to the point you get frostbite. Evaporation is PART
of it - but evaporation would be faster in a "dry cold" which does not
feel as cold as a "damp cold"

The standard Wind Chill formula for Environment Canada is:
TWC=13.12+0.6215Ta-(11.37V+0.16)+(0.3965TaV +0.16)

where TWC is the wind chill index, based on the Celsius temperature
scale, Ta is the air temperature in degrees Celsius (°C), and V is
the wind speed at 10 metres (standard anemometer height), in
kilometres per hour (km/h).[10]
The equivalent formula in US customary units is:[11]
TWC=35.4+0.6215Ta-(35.75V+0.16) + (0.4275Ta(V+0.16)


where TWC is the wind chill index, based on the Fahrenheit scale, is
the air temperature, measured in °F, and is the wind speed, in
mph.[12]
Windchill temperature is defined only for temperatures at or below 10
°C (50 °F) and wind speeds above 4.8 kilometres per hour (3.0
mph).[11]

So, in North America humidity has no "input" into the calculation.

On 1/20/2014 12:37 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.

You are the Southbound end of a Northbound horse! You just had to
rattle trader4's cage again didn't you? Karma is gonna get you!

Yep, it's going to be near zero a couple days
this week, which is -17c for centigrade folks.

With the wind chill so far below zero, I think
it's a good couple days to leave a faucet drip
over night. I'm trying to decide to drip the
hot or cold. So far, been thinking hot.

Might also cardboard and staple over some windows
that don't really need light coming in.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/20/2014 1:05 PM, wrote:
Buy a couple of those "quebec garages" and a few rolls of gorilla
tape. Set the garages up over your trailer to keep the wind off,
taping them together with gorilla tape to make one BIG garage. Then
leave a window open in the trailer to let some heat into the garage to
keep it above 33F, and your pipes won't freeze. Make it long enough
to park your Blazer inside too, and let it run to keep warm. The
exhaust will put you to sleep so you won't feel the cold.

How's that for an Allegheny redneck solution???

Best I've heard in ages. You're first rate,
in spite of what people say.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:49:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/20/2014 12:37 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.

You are the Southbound end of a Northbound horse! You just had to
rattle trader4's cage again didn't you? Karma is gonna get you!

Yep, it's going to be near zero a couple days
this week, which is -17c for centigrade folks.

With the wind chill so far below zero, I think
it's a good couple days to leave a faucet drip
over night. I'm trying to decide to drip the
hot or cold. So far, been thinking hot.

Might also cardboard and staple over some windows
that don't really need light coming in.
Dripping the hot will still allow the cold to freeze - I'd keep them
all dripping, or drain them all.

On 1/20/2014 5:03 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:49:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Might also cardboard and staple over some windows
that don't really need light coming in.

Dripping the hot will still allow the cold to freeze - I'd keep them
all dripping, or drain them all.


That's wise counsell. I do remember a friend of
mine who left one drip, and the other froze.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:19:25 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:23:00 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa


It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.



How can that be. Water expands iirc between 33 and 32^F. So it

reaches its greatest volume at 32. What does 20 have to do with it?


From the old post:

"This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.
(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)"

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:04:20 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:19:25 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:23:00 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa


It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.



How can that be. Water expands iirc between 33 and 32^F. So it

reaches its greatest volume at 32. What does 20 have to do with it?


From the old post:

"This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.
(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)"
Note - that is with pipes in an ATTIC. Heat rises.
We are talking pipes in and under a "redneck bungalow" - close to
ground level. My guess is 20F is about 5 degrees late on a breezy day
and 7 degrees late on a windy one.

A good row of hay bales around the bottom of the trailer before the
snow fell would have helped considerably - likely making 25F safe.
Mabee better. And a couple of 100 watt bulbs would then help keep them
from feezing to quite a bit lower temp.
Then again, I don't know just how BAD Stormy's trailer is. I know some
I've seen down around Ellicotville and south would hardly pass as
chicken coops up here. Likely cost twice as much to heat as my 3
bedroom two story.up here in Central Ontario

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts
up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.

Will the wind chill make it more likely for me
to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?

When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,
should I leave a faucet dripping?

Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a
cold drip?

What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think
we all on the list agreed about our answers.

I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.


I was doing some more sealing cracks at my old house.
The wind gets into them.

Greg

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 20:38:57 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

micky wrote:

...snip...

I don't know about other animals. Dogs pant, but do they in very cold
weather? Probably not, and I've never heard of a dog's tongue freezing
because of wind chill. They probably keep their tongues in their
mouths.

Not my pug! His tongue is almost always hanging out his mouth, from as
little as an inch to as much as 4".

Well, that makes it one to nothing in favor of panting in cold weather.
I had never paid attention, so I was just guessing.

Tongues probably have a good blood supply, I'll bet. Is that what makes
them red?

I don't know about windchill, but I do know that his tongue will stick to a
cold metal pole if he gets too close.

No kidding? How often has he done that? Were you there to free him?

This isn't my dog, but I've seen this situation in real life more than
once.

https://d2npbuaakacvlz.cloudfront.ne...1355973015.jpg

I can see why a dog wouldn't anticipate this problem. Chidren don't
either Really, how could they unless they red a lot?

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:04:20 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:19:25 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:23:00 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa


It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.



How can that be. Water expands iirc between 33 and 32^F. So it

reaches its greatest volume at 32. What does 20 have to do with it?


From the old post:

"This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.
(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)"

Okay. So it's the temperature in practice. Which is affected by all
the factors.

It makes sense. I know pipes don't burst the moment the temp hits 32,
or even 31.

Thanks.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 10:58:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:04:20 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa

wrote:



On Monday, January 20, 2014 1:19:25 PM UTC-6, micky wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:23:00 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa





It would be nil in both cases since the threshold is below 20 degrees for pipes to burst.







How can that be. Water expands iirc between 33 and 32^F. So it



reaches its greatest volume at 32. What does 20 have to do with it?





From the old post:



"This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!



When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20�F.



This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20�F or below.



This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.

(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)"

Note - that is with pipes in an ATTIC. Heat rises.

We are talking pipes in and under a "redneck bungalow" - close to

ground level. My guess is 20F is about 5 degrees late on a breezy day

and 7 degrees late on a windy one.



+1 The poster took what is clearly offered as a general guideline
for outside temps and freezing pipes in an *attic* and made it
appear it applies to freezing pipes in general. If you have a
piece of exposed pipe filled with water outside, I agree that I
would expect it could easily freeze and bust long before 20F.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 2:14:33 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 07:35:58 -0500, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



Weather forecast for this week is windy, gusts

up to 45 MPH, and also temps near zero F.



Will the wind chill make it more likely for me

to freeze pipes? Compared to still air?



If your pipes don't perspire or leak, if they're not wet on the outside,

wind chill is not a factor.

BS. Following that theory, a car radiator is transfering just
as much heat with no air moving through it as it is with a high
volume of air moving through it.


It doesn't exist for pipes that are not

wet on the outside.

Wrong. If you have a brick that is 100F and you put it
outside when it's 50F, does it cool off faster with or without
a fan blowing on it?



Even though plenty of people talk like it does.



It doesn't exist for cars, either, unless they are wet on the outside.

Not "were wet" but "are wet".



Then feel free to block the airflow to your radiator. It will
still transfer the same amount of heat, right?



It exists for people, who perspire, a little bit everywhere I think.

The wind blows across the wet skin, even so slightly wet that it doesn't

feel wet, and the water draws heat from the skin as it evaporates.

You completely ignore the heat removed by *convection*. It doesn't
have to be wet. If it is wet, then yes that increases the heat
transfer.



The quantity of heat needed to make water evaporate, the heat of

vaporization, is the same as the heat required to raise the temperature

of the same amount of water by 15 or 20 degrees, iirc. It's the same

amount of heat needed by water about to boil on a stove, to go from

water to water vapor, although I guess one cannot tell by looking how

much heat that is.



Which has nothing to do with the situation at hand.



I don't know about other animals. Dogs pant, but do they in very cold

weather? Probably not,

And people don't sweat on their exposed skin when it's 15F either.




and I've never heard of a dog's tongue freezing

because of wind chill. They probably keep their tongues in their

mouths.





When it's near zero F, and winds of 45 MPH,



The wind doesn't matter, but the 0F does.



Of course the wind matters. You think it takes just as much
energy to heat a house when it 0 with a 45 MPH wind and without?
Good grief.



should I leave a faucet dripping?



If it is actually zero where the pipe is, yes.



Just if it's zero? Just a drip? Good grief.




LIke under the trailer maybe, where it's not heated? What do other

people with trailers do? If you live in a trailer park, you'd find more

people who know abou tthis there than you willl here. Or at least they

should know what they do and what happens to their pipes when they do

it. Even if you don't live in one, go visit one and ask them.

Yes, great idea. I live in a house and I should go survey
folks who live in a trailer. Good grief.


Isn't

there usually a manager. He should know what to do.



Would it be better to leave a hot drip, or a

cold drip?



Whichever pipe is exposed to the very cold temperature. Both of them,

if that is the case.



And I'll bet if the pipes are really exposed to the very cold, eg 0F
number you cited, that they will freeze with just a drip anyway.
The lower the temp, the more exposed, the more water you need flowing.




What was the agreement, last time I asked? I think

we all on the list agreed about our answers.



I vaguely remember someone called me an idiot.



I can see why.

On 1/20/2014 10:58 PM, wrote:
Note - that is with pipes in an ATTIC. Heat rises.
We are talking pipes in and under a "redneck bungalow" - close to
ground level. My guess is 20F is about 5 degrees late on a breezy day
and 7 degrees late on a windy one.

A good row of hay bales around the bottom of the trailer before the
snow fell would have helped considerably - likely making 25F safe.
Mabee better. And a couple of 100 watt bulbs would then help keep them
from feezing to quite a bit lower temp.
Then again, I don't know just how BAD Stormy's trailer is. I know some
I've seen down around Ellicotville and south would hardly pass as
chicken coops up here. Likely cost twice as much to heat as my 3
bedroom two story.up here in Central Ontario

I've not seen hay bales any where else in the
trailer park, not sure it's allowed. I'd have
to ask, some time. Might be able to rig some thing
with fiberglass, behind the skirting.

Some years ago, a couple friends and I blew cellulose
into the ceiling, and that helped a lot. Used to have
icicles down to the ground. From the lost heat.

When I go out for more than an hour or so, I turn
down the heat to 60F, figure that cuts my heat bill
a bit. Only runs two or three minutes to recover when
I get back. Sometimes, I'll light a stove burner during
the warmup period.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/21/2014 12:19 AM, gregz wrote:


I was doing some more sealing cracks at my old house.
The wind gets into them.

Greg


Caulk is good, and that "great Stuff" foam is also good.
I figure any where cold air blows in, hot air has to be
blowing out the other side.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/20/2014 9:46 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/20/2014 7:59 AM, Norminn wrote:

The routine here is to surround mobile home with straw bales, leave
faucets running at a trickle, leave cabinet doors open. Good luck.

If the pipes freeze, close the cabinet doors
and light the bales on fire?


LOL. The point is to keep colder air out....a line of bales all around
the perimeter of the home would hold some of the heat lost from pipes
and floor inside the space, I presume. With faucets running slowly,
that would likely add at least more heat to the space than minus-degree
wind blowing through.

When I lived in a house on slab and without much insulation, the
prevailing north wind in winter made floors and walls at north end much
cooler.

On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:08:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/20/2014 10:58 PM, wrote:
Note - that is with pipes in an ATTIC. Heat rises.
We are talking pipes in and under a "redneck bungalow" - close to
ground level. My guess is 20F is about 5 degrees late on a breezy day
and 7 degrees late on a windy one.

A good row of hay bales around the bottom of the trailer before the
snow fell would have helped considerably - likely making 25F safe.
Mabee better. And a couple of 100 watt bulbs would then help keep them
from feezing to quite a bit lower temp.
Then again, I don't know just how BAD Stormy's trailer is. I know some
I've seen down around Ellicotville and south would hardly pass as
chicken coops up here. Likely cost twice as much to heat as my 3
bedroom two story.up here in Central Ontario

I've not seen hay bales any where else in the
trailer park, not sure it's allowed. I'd have
to ask, some time. Might be able to rig some thing
with fiberglass, behind the skirting.

Some years ago, a couple friends and I blew cellulose
into the ceiling, and that helped a lot. Used to have
icicles down to the ground. From the lost heat.

When I go out for more than an hour or so, I turn
down the heat to 60F, figure that cuts my heat bill
a bit. Only runs two or three minutes to recover when
I get back. Sometimes, I'll light a stove burner during
the warmup period.
My brother skirted his trailer near Huntsville/Parry Sound ontario
with 1 inch lumber,sealed with typar (on the inside) and backed with 3
inches of insulation and the temperature under his trailer never got
below 42F - even when it is -40 out and blowing up a storm. He is on
dry sand.
He just installed an outdoor boiler to heat the trailer and his new
shop - and running the heat line under the trailer heats the
"crawlspace" enough that the floor is warm and the circulator fan on
the heat exchanger (in the "furnace" hardly runs.
It is an OLD trailer - was 2X3 framed - he built another 2X3 wall
inside the living room and added 3 inches of insulation, as well as
6inches or more extra in the roof - the kitchen and bedrooms are still
the original 3" walls and standard roof insulation.
He is hoping to get the new house built next summer.