Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks

"micky" wrote in message ...

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================== ===
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:29:52 AM UTC-5, Lord Androcles wrote:
"micky" wrote in message ...



Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden

faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches

inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.



The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe

down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed

to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.

All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.



If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me

that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the

water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that

even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And

that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't

possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift

itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.



(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C

and 0^C.)



Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension

will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,

where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe

when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?



I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as

it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus

it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,

perhaps risking a leak there.



Thanks

================================================== ===

If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.

then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice

in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll

have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.

You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the

recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug

What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.



-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

More water can't get in unless the sillcock is leaking.
If it's leaking, then it should be obvious, there is going
to be water dripping out and it should
be fixed. I'd definitely go with having it pitch slightly
down. Those sillcocks have screw holes on the outside to
fasten it to the wall. A lot of times, plumbers ignore them.
If there is a little play in the pipe, just holding it down
an 1/8" and using those screw holes to fasten it may give
you the down slope. But if that's not possible and it's level,
I wouldn't worry about it.

In fact, under the slowly filling with water scenario
presented above, I think if it has a slow leak, it could
freeze under the same scenario even if it's tipped slightly
down. Slow drip comes out, trickles down hill and gets
cold enough to turn to ice near the end. Water starts backing
up and the process continues, similar to if there was no pitch,
no?

wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:29:52 AM UTC-5, Lord Androcles wrote:
"micky" wrote in message
...



Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock,
garden

faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches

inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.



The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the
pipe

down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as
opposed

to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.

All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is
level.



If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me

that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the

water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that

even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And

that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above
can't

possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift

itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.



(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between
4^C

and 0^C.)



Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface
tension

will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my
basement,

where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the
pipe

when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?



I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down
as

it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way.
Plus

it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,

perhaps risking a leak there.



Thanks

================================================== ===

If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.

then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice

in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll

have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.

You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the

recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug

What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.



-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

More water can't get in unless the sillcock is leaking.
If it's leaking, then it should be obvious, there is going
to be water dripping out and it should
be fixed. I'd definitely go with having it pitch slightly
down. Those sillcocks have screw holes on the outside to
fasten it to the wall. A lot of times, plumbers ignore them.
If there is a little play in the pipe, just holding it down
an 1/8" and using those screw holes to fasten it may give
you the down slope. But if that's not possible and it's level,
I wouldn't worry about it.

In fact, under the slowly filling with water scenario
presented above, I think if it has a slow leak, it could
freeze under the same scenario even if it's tipped slightly
down. Slow drip comes out, trickles down hill and gets
cold enough to turn to ice near the end. Water starts backing
up and the process continues, similar to if there was no pitch,
no?

Exackly!.If it's level, it'll be fine, and if it leaks, it won't, no matter what
the slope.

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message ...

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================= ====
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????

Bob F wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:29:52 AM UTC-5, Lord Androcles wrote:
"micky" wrote in message
...



Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock,
garden

faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches

inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.



The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the
pipe

down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as
opposed

to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.

All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is
level.



If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me

that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the

water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that

even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And

that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above
can't

possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift

itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.



(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between
4^C

and 0^C.)



Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface
tension

will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my
basement,

where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the
pipe

when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?



I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down
as

it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way.
Plus

it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,

perhaps risking a leak there.



Thanks

================================================== ===

If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.

then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice

in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll

have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.

You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the

recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug

What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.



-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

More water can't get in unless the sillcock is leaking.
If it's leaking, then it should be obvious, there is going
to be water dripping out and it should
be fixed. I'd definitely go with having it pitch slightly
down. Those sillcocks have screw holes on the outside to
fasten it to the wall. A lot of times, plumbers ignore them.
If there is a little play in the pipe, just holding it down
an 1/8" and using those screw holes to fasten it may give
you the down slope. But if that's not possible and it's level,
I wouldn't worry about it.

In fact, under the slowly filling with water scenario
presented above, I think if it has a slow leak, it could
freeze under the same scenario even if it's tipped slightly
down. Slow drip comes out, trickles down hill and gets
cold enough to turn to ice near the end. Water starts backing
up and the process continues, similar to if there was no pitch,
no?

Exackly!.If it's level, it'll be fine, and if it leaks, it won't, no matter what
the slope.


Hi,
I have 2 of them out at my 4 season cabin. The crawl space is heated.
The fixture comes in different length and when you mount them there is a
beveled spacer to go in between wall and fixture making it tilting down
slightly. I used 16 in. long ones thru 2x6 in. framed wall and connected
to a PEX tubing(cabin is plumbed all PEX) Over 10 years I have not had
any problem. I just shut it off late fall and remove hose.

Unnamed
wrote in message news
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
.. .

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================= ====
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from? shrug

Unnamed
wrote in message news
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
.. .

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================= ====
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from? shrug

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:

Unnamed
wrote in message news
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
. ..

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================ =====
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from? shrug

It is an open pipe on the outside of a closed stopcock - you clain
water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you
claim is going to cause a problem will come from.

Lord Androcles wrote:
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from?
shrug

IT comes from somewhere. If it keeps coming from there, it will freeze. So you
need to know to fix it.

wrote in message ...

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:

Unnamed
wrote in message news
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
. ..

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================ =====
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from?
shrug

It is an open pipe on the outside of a closed stopcock - you clain
water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you
claim is going to cause a problem will come from.
============================================
Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give a
****,
make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's not
my house.
*plonk*

wrote in message ...

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:

Unnamed
wrote in message news
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
. ..

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
================================================ =====
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from?
shrug

It is an open pipe on the outside of a closed stopcock - you clain
water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you
claim is going to cause a problem will come from.
============================================
Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give a
****,
make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's not
my house.
*plonk*

On 1/11/2014 3:53 PM, Lord Androcles wrote:
============================================
Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give
a ****,
make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's
not
my house.
*plonk*


106 lines of text, to say that one person's
posts won't appear on one PC. I guess usenet
ain't what it used to be.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/11/2014 6:34 AM, micky wrote:
Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks

Must be important, if they keep banging the
drum about the tilt. Can you make the hole
a bit longer at the bottom, and caulk or foam
the top where it's now open?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:53:31 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



wrote in message ...

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:

Unnamed
wrote in message news
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks
=============================================== ======
If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.
then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice
in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll
have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.
You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the
recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug
What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????
=============================================
It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from?
shrug

It is an open pipe on the outside of a closed stopcock - you clain
water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you
claim is going to cause a problem will come from.
============================================
Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give a
****,
make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's not
my house.
*plonk*

Except NONE of the numerous ones I have installed have said ANYTHING
about tipping them down - and I'm definitely in frost country.

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:36:15 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/11/2014 6:34 AM, micky wrote:
Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks

Must be important, if they keep banging the
drum about the tilt. Can you make the hole
a bit longer at the bottom, and caulk or foam
the top where it's now open?
Funny, none of the (quite a few) I've installed have had any
instruction saying to point it down., just not to install vertically
up.

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:09:42 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:36:15 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/11/2014 6:34 AM, micky wrote:
Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden
faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches
inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.

The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe
down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed
to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.
All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.

If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me
that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the
water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that
even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And
that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't
possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift
itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.

(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C
and 0^C.)

Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension
will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,
where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe
when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?

I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as
it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus
it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,
perhaps risking a leak there.

Thanks

Must be important, if they keep banging the
drum about the tilt. Can you make the hole
a bit longer at the bottom, and caulk or foam
the top where it's now open?
Funny, none of the (quite a few) I've installed have had any
instruction saying to point it down., just not to install vertically
up.

That's good to know.

I don't think there were ANY instructions on the ones in HD, and it
would have been a simple replacement if they didn't terminate in what
looks like a male garden hose thread. So I looked at videos, most of
which didnt' get to that but one had me making up a 3-piece connector to
go from female threads, to tubing, to a straight union. And 2 or 3
videos wanted it tipped down. I don't remember text-only bringing that
up.

My current valve is 34 years old and doesn't leak at all. I only use it
a half-dozen times a year, and in the first 4 years, the previous owner,
known as the Berry-man to the neighbors, probably used it 6 days a week
in spring and summer. All my valves that I almost never use work fine.
There's no reason to think the new one here will leak in the next 30
years.

Maybe I'll be able to point it down a degree or two, as Chris sort of
suggested. Right now it's not screwed to the bricks at all, and I think
I like it like that better than a big hole with lead anchors, but I can
fill in the hole at the top a little and let it harden before. putting
the valve in.

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:08:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:53:31 -0000, "Lord Androcles"

wrote:







wrote in message ...



On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0000, "Lord Androcles"

wrote:



Unnamed

wrote in message news



On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"

wrote:







"micky" wrote in message

...



Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden

faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches

inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.



The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe

down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed

to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.

All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.



If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me

that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the

water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that

even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And

that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't

possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift

itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.



(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C

and 0^C.)



Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension

will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,

where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe

when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?



I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as

it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus

it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,

perhaps risking a leak there.



Thanks

=============================================== ======

If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom.

then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice

in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll

have 3/8" ... AND SO ON.

You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the

recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... shrug

What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.



-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

And just where is all this extra water going to come from??????

=============================================

It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from?

shrug



It is an open pipe on the outside of a closed stopcock - you clain

water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you

claim is going to cause a problem will come from.

============================================

Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give a

****,

make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's not

my house.

*plonk*



Except NONE of the numerous ones I have installed have said ANYTHING

about tipping them down - and I'm definitely in frost country.

Nor can I see why the same thing won't happen with a slow leak whether
it's tipped down slightly or perfectly horizontal. If it's tipped down,
the slowly dripping water will freeze as it nears the end of the sill-cock.
As soon as you have about 1/8" of ice at the cold, outside end, it's
going to behave
exactly like a sill-cock that is tilted slightly downward. In either
case the water continues to back up, freeze, etc.

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:58:07 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:09:42 -0500, wrote:



On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:36:15 -0500, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



On 1/11/2014 6:34 AM, micky wrote:

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden

faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches

inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.



The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe

down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed

to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level.

All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.



If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me

that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the

water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that

even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And

that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't

possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift

itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.



(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C

and 0^C.)



Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension

will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement,

where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe

when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?



I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as

it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus

it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union,

perhaps risking a leak there.



Thanks



Must be important, if they keep banging the

drum about the tilt. Can you make the hole

a bit longer at the bottom, and caulk or foam

the top where it's now open?

Funny, none of the (quite a few) I've installed have had any

instruction saying to point it down., just not to install vertically

up.



That's good to know.



I don't think there were ANY instructions on the ones in HD, and it

would have been a simple replacement if they didn't terminate in what

looks like a male garden hose thread. So I looked at videos, most of

which didnt' get to that but one had me making up a 3-piece connector to

go from female threads, to tubing, to a straight union. And 2 or 3

videos wanted it tipped down. I don't remember text-only bringing that

up.



My current valve is 34 years old and doesn't leak at all. I only use it

a half-dozen times a year, and in the first 4 years, the previous owner,

known as the Berry-man to the neighbors, probably used it 6 days a week

in spring and summer. All my valves that I almost never use work fine.

There's no reason to think the new one here will leak in the next 30

years.



Maybe I'll be able to point it down a degree or two, as Chris sort of

suggested. Right now it's not screwed to the bricks at all, and I think

I like it like that better than a big hole with lead anchors, but I can

fill in the hole at the top a little and let it harden before. putting

the valve in.

I've used a couple dabs of construction adhesive to secure
them to brick. I agree I would not drill holes for anchor screws.
And shoot some caulk or expanding foam to close up the hole so
cold wind can't blow in.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:46:07 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


Maybe I'll be able to point it down a degree or two, as Chris sort of

suggested. Right now it's not screwed to the bricks at all, and I think

I like it like that better than a big hole with lead anchors, but I can

fill in the hole

for the pipe (not the same hole as I don't want for screws.)

at the top a little and let it harden before. putting

the valve in.

I've used a couple dabs of construction adhesive to secure

Okay

them to brick. I agree I would not drill holes for anchor screws.
And shoot some caulk or expanding foam to close up the hole so
cold wind can't blow in.

Okay. No air coming in now, and I want to keep it that way. (I would
notice a draft when I turn off and on the water from the inside), either
because of a bunch of pink fiberglass stuffed in there, or because it's
caulked on the outside, or both. Thanks.

micky wrote:
My current valve is 34 years old and doesn't leak at all. I only use
it a half-dozen times a year, and in the first 4 years, the previous
owner, known as the Berry-man to the neighbors, probably used it 6
days a week in spring and summer. All my valves that I almost never
use work fine. There's no reason to think the new one here will leak
in the next 30 years.

I put in a HD frost free spigot, and had to replace it within a year or two when
it started dripping. Somehow, I suspect that the unit from 34 years ago was
better built than what you can get at the box stores today.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:04:33 -0800, "Bob F" wrote:

micky wrote:
My current valve is 34 years old and doesn't leak at all. I only use
it a half-dozen times a year, and in the first 4 years, the previous
owner, known as the Berry-man to the neighbors, probably used it 6
days a week in spring and summer. All my valves that I almost never
use work fine. There's no reason to think the new one here will leak
in the next 30 years.

I put in a HD frost free spigot, and had to replace it within a year or two when
it started dripping.

Well that's no good. Maybe I should buy the valve somewhere else.

Or just forget the whole thing. Now that I know I can get replacement
drain caps (waste caps), I don't have to worry about ruining the old one
with Channel-locks.

Somehow, I suspect that the unit from 34 years ago was
better built than what you can get at the box stores today.

It doesn't look special. OTOH, the new ones look like they went to
some fancy Eastern prep school.