I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

DerbyDad03 writes:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

What vacuum?

I think you're thinking of the way water won't drain out of a narrow
tube. The water clings to the walls of the tube.

In the case of a water line, the tube is wide enough that surface
tension doesn't matter.

--
Dan Espen

On 11/13/2013 4:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

The HO needs to take the hose off, when cold season occurs.
I've seen it before, people leave the hose on. The tube
stays full of water, and they curse the ancestors of the
sillcock manufacturers.

The valve is 10 or 12 inches back from the turn handle.
Long, long, long valve stem. Ideally, they drain out
the open thread end, since the hose is taken off the
threads.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

I watched that same show. Asked myself, why is there no drain relief
on the downside of the pipe?

Drain the water from the inside. No worry on the pitch of the pipe.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

Hi,
There is a beveled spacer to be betweeon wall and bib. Whoever
installed it was not paying attention or s(he) was an idiot?
I have several of them out t my cabin. Since it was built more than
10 ers ago, nothing happened to them. I has also heated basement.
Owner ought hear the water gushing out......!

I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I soldered in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of it. One like this:

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/Hom....107-554_4.jpg

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can service it easily without turning water off to anything more than that one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak out the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball valve and possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

For that TV show to start claiming that the problem was caused by the pipe sloping in the wrong direction is missing the point. The show should be recommending people install a shut off valve with drain upstream of the hydrant. Then, it doesn't matter which way the piping slopes, and you're protected even if, unbeknownst to you, that shut off valve starts to leak and fill up the piping with water.

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

Some of them have vacuum breakers. This one mentions the valve should
be slanted downwards.
http://www.woodfordmfg.com/woodford/...ucetWorks.html
Also says the hose must be disconnected before freezing weather.
I think these things are totally unnecessary. Cost 6-8 times more
than a common reliable hose bib.
I have 2 hose faucets and before winter I just close the inside
valves, disconnect the hoses and open the faucets. BFD
The pipes from the inside valve to the outside faucet look level to
me. They drain fine. Galvanized steel pipes.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:09:58 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I soldered
in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of it. One like
this:

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can
service it easily without turning water off to anything more than that
one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it
doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the
outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by
using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous
because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak out
the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball valve and
possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

Using a ball valve with drain upstream of the hydrant allows you to
protect that hydrant from cracking due to freezing no matter what.

So, you're saying that there is no purpose behind a frost-free
silcock. OK, but I think they're great inventions. No need to drain
them at all.

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:54:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:09:58 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I soldered
in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of it. One like
this:

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can
service it easily without turning water off to anything more than that
one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it
doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the
outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by
using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous
because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak out
the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball valve and
possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

Using a ball valve with drain upstream of the hydrant allows you to
protect that hydrant from cracking due to freezing no matter what.

So, you're saying that there is no purpose behind a frost-free
silcock. OK, but I think they're great inventions. No need to drain
them at all.


We were talking about pipe pitch of the fixture and the pipe end
inside the house. Tilted to drain to the exterior is better than water
held inside at freezing. With access, a thumb screw drain vale works.

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?
It is a big enough tube that thw wader"slumps" enough to let air in -
and the water runs out. The more likely cause of the frostproof
splitting is the owner left a hose attached. That will do it, just
about every time. In my case it didn't split, - it just pulled the
tube out of the faucet/valve portion - so the tap opened and water ran
through the hose the first time it got warm, and filled my window well
with water - which ran in the window and (most of it) into the laundry
tub.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:09:58 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I soldered
in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of it. One like
this:

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can
service it easily without turning water off to anything more than that
one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it
doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the
outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by
using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous
because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak out
the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball valve and
possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

Using a ball valve with drain upstream of the hydrant allows you to
protect that hydrant from cracking due to freezing no matter what.
Then why even bother with an expensive frost free hydrant???????
Just use a standard silcock outside - or even a ball valve.

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:10:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:54:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:09:58 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I soldered
in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of it. One like
this:

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can
service it easily without turning water off to anything more than that
one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it
doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the
outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by
using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous
because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak out
the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball valve and
possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

Using a ball valve with drain upstream of the hydrant allows you to
protect that hydrant from cracking due to freezing no matter what.

So, you're saying that there is no purpose behind a frost-free
silcock. OK, but I think they're great inventions. No need to drain
them at all.


We were talking about pipe pitch of the fixture and the pipe end
inside the house. Tilted to drain to the exterior is better than water
held inside at freezing. With access, a thumb screw drain vale works.

I can read. The other, more obvious conclusion would be to install
the damned thing properly in the first place. Screw the thumb screw.

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

I watched that same show. Asked myself, why is there no drain relief
on the downside of the pipe?

Drain the water from the inside. No worry on the pitch of the pipe.

I'm not saying that your drain is a bad idea, quite the contrary.

However, I've never seen one suggested on any Sillcock installation site. I
just watch 3 youtube's and scanned through the top three text hits on
installing a frost free Sillcock. Not a single one mentions a drain.

If I recall correctly, 4 or 5 of the 6 suggested the downward slant, but
not one mentions an interior drain.

Is that something you've seen/learned or was it your own idea?

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:39:50 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

I watched that same show. Asked myself, why is there no drain relief
on the downside of the pipe?

Drain the water from the inside. No worry on the pitch of the pipe.

I'm not saying that your drain is a bad idea, quite the contrary.

However, I've never seen one suggested on any Sillcock installation site. I
just watch 3 youtube's and scanned through the top three text hits on
installing a frost free Sillcock. Not a single one mentions a drain.

If I recall correctly, 4 or 5 of the 6 suggested the downward slant, but
not one mentions an interior drain.

Is that something you've seen/learned or was it your own idea?

Excuse me if I'm incorrect. The Holmes show, if right, shows, from
Canada, spoke of the slant pitch in the pipe, installed with very
brief words about the pipe pitch towards the exterior.

I was only thinking we saw the same concept in the same show

wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?
It is a big enough tube that thw wader"slumps" enough to let air in -
and the water runs out. The more likely cause of the frostproof
splitting is the owner left a hose attached. That will do it, just
about every time. In my case it didn't split, - it just pulled the
tube out of the faucet/valve portion - so the tap opened and water ran
through the hose the first time it got warm, and filled my window well
with water - which ran in the window and (most of it) into the laundry
tub.

My son, when he was like 10, opened the backyard spigot and nothing came
out because it was frozen. Not being fully versed in righty tighty, lefty
loosey, he got confused (he admitted as much later) and wasn't sure if he
had turned it off or left it on.

A few days later the weather warmed up, the spigot unfroze and came on full
blast. At the time I had a grading problem and massive amounts of rain (or
a fully open spigot) would cause water to come under the back door and into
the basement. Luckily, my wife had taken the day off of work and eventually
heard the rushing water and shut off the main before too much water entered
the basement. Had we both been at work, the water would have run for 8+
hours.

(I have since buried a 55 gallon plastic drum as a drywell right outside
the basement door and have not had a water issue even in the worst
downpours, the kinds that used cause the basement to flood.)

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:39:50 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes
Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where
The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.

They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.
It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior
of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the
interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the
owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water
on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came
back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward
so that they drain.

That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

I watched that same show. Asked myself, why is there no drain relief
on the downside of the pipe?

Drain the water from the inside. No worry on the pitch of the pipe.

I'm not saying that your drain is a bad idea, quite the contrary.

However, I've never seen one suggested on any Sillcock installation site. I
just watch 3 youtube's and scanned through the top three text hits on
installing a frost free Sillcock. Not a single one mentions a drain.

If I recall correctly, 4 or 5 of the 6 suggested the downward slant, but
not one mentions an interior drain.

Is that something you've seen/learned or was it your own idea?

Excuse me if I'm incorrect. The Holmes show, if right, shows, from
Canada, spoke of the slant pitch in the pipe, installed with very
brief words about the pipe pitch towards the exterior.

I was only thinking we saw the same concept in the same show

Now I'm confused.

Yes, the show talked about the pitch, although it wasn't a brief mention of
the pitch. The entire segment (a full minute?) related to Sillcock was
about the fact that the old had split because of the pitch to the interior.
He explained in detail why the pitch should be towards the outside.

However, you mentioned that when you saw it, you thought to yourself "Why
no drain?" My question is what made you think that? I've never seen a drain
on a spigot nor have I seen any installation instructions that suggested
one. So, I ask again, not in a challenging manner, simply out of curiosity:
Is the drain something that you came up with on your own or have you seen
them installed?

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 01:08:45 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Now I'm confused.

Yes, the show talked about the pitch, although it wasn't a brief mention of
the pitch. The entire segment (a full minute?) related to Sillcock was
about the fact that the old had split because of the pitch to the interior.
He explained in detail why the pitch should be towards the outside.

However, you mentioned that when you saw it, you thought to yourself "Why
no drain?" My question is what made you think that? I've never seen a drain
on a spigot nor have I seen any installation instructions that suggested
one. So, I ask again, not in a challenging manner, simply out of curiosity:
Is the drain something that you came up with on your own or have you seen
them installed?

I'm looking for the drain fitting I mention. Not from the show, but
what can be added to the hose bib feature.

I'll find it and hopefully explain how the interior line can be
drained - regardless of the pitch in the pipe.

It basically adds up to draining the pipe for winter months.

wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:10:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:54:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:09:58 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I
soldered in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of
it. One like this:

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can
service it easily without turning water off to anything more than
that one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it
doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the
outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by
using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous
because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak
out the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball
valve and possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

Using a ball valve with drain upstream of the hydrant allows you to
protect that hydrant from cracking due to freezing no matter what.

So, you're saying that there is no purpose behind a frost-free
silcock. OK, but I think they're great inventions. No need to
drain them at all.


We were talking about pipe pitch of the fixture and the pipe end
inside the house. Tilted to drain to the exterior is better than
water held inside at freezing. With access, a thumb screw drain vale
works.

I can read. The other, more obvious conclusion would be to install
the damned thing properly in the first place. Screw the thumb screw.

And when freezing weather arrives, make sure the faucet doesn't have any drips.
If any water is leaking past it, it will freeze.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Yes, the show talked about the pitch, although it wasn't a brief
mention of the pitch. The entire segment (a full minute?) related to
Sillcock was about the fact that the old had split because of the
pitch to the interior. He explained in detail why the pitch should be
towards the outside.

However, you mentioned that when you saw it, you thought to yourself
"Why no drain?" My question is what made you think that? I've never
seen a drain on a spigot nor have I seen any installation
instructions that suggested one. So, I ask again, not in a
challenging manner, simply out of curiosity: Is the drain something
that you came up with on your own or have you seen them installed?

Modern faucets were introduced to eliminate the need for a drain. They work. Why
add one.?

Drains were a pain in the butt.

Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi,
There is a beveled spacer to be betweeon wall and bib. Whoever
installed it was not paying attention or s(he) was an idiot?
I have several of them out t my cabin. Since it was built more than
10 ers ago, nothing happened to them. I has also heated basement.
Owner ought hear the water gushing out......!

As far as I can tell, the beveled washer was to account for siding slope. If
the faucet is level - as long as it doesn't slope upward towards the outside, it
will drain fine. A few drops left in the tube won't cause any problem.

Vic Smith wrote:
Some of them have vacuum breakers. This one mentions the valve should
be slanted downwards.
http://www.woodfordmfg.com/woodford/...ucetWorks.html
Also says the hose must be disconnected before freezing weather.
I think these things are totally unnecessary. Cost 6-8 times more
than a common reliable hose bib.
I have 2 hose faucets and before winter I just close the inside
valves, disconnect the hoses and open the faucets. BFD
The pipes from the inside valve to the outside faucet look level to
me. They drain fine. Galvanized steel pipes.

But with the frost free faucets, you can use them in the winter. Handy!

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 01:08:45 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Now I'm confused.

Yes, the show talked about the pitch, although it wasn't a brief mention of
the pitch. The entire segment (a full minute?) related to Sillcock was
about the fact that the old had split because of the pitch to the interior.
He explained in detail why the pitch should be towards the outside.

However, you mentioned that when you saw it, you thought to yourself "Why
no drain?" My question is what made you think that? I've never seen a drain
on a spigot nor have I seen any installation instructions that suggested
one. So, I ask again, not in a challenging manner, simply out of curiosity:
Is the drain something that you came up with on your own or have you seen
them installed?

I'm looking for the drain fitting I mention. Not from the show, but
what can be added to the hose bib feature.

I'll find it and hopefully explain how the interior line can be
drained - regardless of the pitch in the pipe.

It basically adds up to draining the pipe for winter months.

Thanks, but I don't need a picture - a drain is a drain - I just need a
direct answer to my question.

It's not a hard question. Where do you get the idea to add an internal
drain to a sillcock?

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 03:30:36 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Thanks, but I don't need a picture - a drain is a drain - I just need a
direct answer to my question.

It's not a hard question. Where do you get the idea to add an internal
drain to a sillcock?

My apologies. The drain is in the pipe connector and not the sillcock
/ hose bib. Sorry for my confusion. The piece fits into the pipe,
allows draining - nuttin' froze or split.

I'm sayin' a connection fitting.

In the desert, out here, we don't worry

DerbyDad is saying that he's seen many references, articles, shows on how to install a frost proof outdoor hydrant, and none of them have recommended installing a shut off valve with drain upstream of the hydrant.

I believe that's probably true because most of these TV shows rely solely on the knowledge of the film crew and the actors/contractors in putting the show together, and these guys don't know everything just as none of us do.

But, what bugged me is that when I did see a DIY show or VHS video that did suggest the shut off valve with drain upstream of the frost free hydrant, the dummies soldered the valve in with the handle on top and the drain at the SIDE of the valve body, exactly as depicted in this pictu

http://www.homedepot.ca/wcsstore/Hom....107-554_4.jpg

Now, that's gotta be due to complete lack of experience doing this kind of work because it's not difficult to figure out that the better idea would have been to solder the valve in with the drain at the bottom and the handle sticking out horizontally at the side. That way, all the water drains out cuz the drain is at the lowest point in the piping.

But, that's not the worst of it. The scary thing to realize here is that "dumb" is contagious as evidinced by this Italian design of ball valve with drain:

http://www.giacomini.com/static/en/c...ges/R250WS.jpg

Go figure.

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad is saying that he's seen many references on how to install an
frost proof outdoor hydrant, and none of them have recommended
installing a shut off valve with drain upstream of the hydrant.

I believe that because most of these TV shows rely solely on the
knowledge of the film crew and actors/contractors in putting the show
together, and these guys don't know everything just as none of us do.

But, what bugged me is that when I did see a DIY show that did suggest
the shut off valve with drain upstream of the frost free hydrant, the
dummies soldered the valve in with the handle on top and the drain at
the SIDE of the valve body so that not all the water would drain out.

It takes someone who's brain is barely funtioning from lack of use not
to realize that even if the pictures always show the drain at the side
of the valve...

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

that the valve should be soldered in with the drain at the bottom and
the handle sticking out horizontally at the side. That way, all the
water drains out cuz the drain is at the lowest point in the piping. It
surprised me that no one the team that made the TV show or VHS video
that I watched ever suggested they orient the valve differently so that
the drain is at the bottom.



I think you may be wrong. This site clearly states that drain is on the
side of the valve, not the bottom. :-)

http://www.pexuniverse.com/store/cat...l-valves-drain

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 05:12:38 +0100, nestork
wrote:


DerbyDad is saying that he's seen many references on how to install an
frost proof outdoor hydrant, and none of them have recommended
installing a shut off valve with drain upstream of the hydrant.

I believe that because most of these TV shows rely solely on the
knowledge of the film crew and actors/contractors in putting the show
together, and these guys don't know everything just as none of us do.

But, what bugged me is that when I did see a DIY show that did suggest
the shut off valve with drain upstream of the frost free hydrant, the
dummies soldered the valve in with the handle on top and the drain at
the SIDE of the valve body so that not all the water would drain out.

It takes someone who's brain is barely funtioning from lack of use not
to realize that even if the pictures always show the drain at the side
of the valve...

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

that the valve should be soldered in with the drain at the bottom and
the handle sticking out horizontally at the side. That way, all the
water drains out cuz the drain is at the lowest point in the piping. It
surprised me that no one the team that made the TV show or VHS video
that I watched ever suggested they orient the valve differently so that
the drain is at the bottom.

Excellent. The pipe is shut off and drained. Further adding to less
freezing or damaged pipes.

It really is easy to drain the pipe near the _"Frost Proof Sillcock_".

I had another drain type in mind. Your link gives a good example of
what we mean

You're 100% correct. In the photo of the valve, the drain is clearly located at the side of the valve.

However, no where does it say that the valve should be installed vertically as shown in the photo. The valve can be installed in any orientation, and so what was the "side" of the valve when the valve was vertical can end up facing any direction if you change the orientation of the valve. That is, the suggestion that the drain should be oriented horizontally would only be made if they required the valve to be installed vertically, and they don't.

We live in a world where things aren't always intuitive. Professional boxers used to suffer from dimentia in their autumn years, and it seemed intuitive that this was because every time they took a punch in the face, their skulls would be pushed backwards causing their brains to slam against the inside of the skull directly behind their foreheads. The problem was that the kinds of mental abilities that boxers lost in their autumn years were all associated with the rear part of the brain, not the front part of the brain. Autopsies done on professional boxers confirmed that it was the BACK of their brains that were severely damaged from bruising, not the fronts of their brains. Well, it turns out that the mucous fluid that surrounds the brain inside the skull is denser than the brain tissue itself. The brain basically floats in this dense viscous mucous fluid. So, when a boxer is punched in the face and his skull is pushed backward, the inertia of the mucous fluid causes it to accumulate at the front of the skull, pushing the lighter brain backward to hit against the back of the skull. So, things can often be very different in reality to what they might seem to be at first glance.

But, this is NOT one of those cases.

Ball valves work equally well if the stem which turns the ball is horizontal, vertical, oriented north, west, east or south or even upside down. So, the ball valve will work equally well in any orientation.

The drain, however, always works best if you put it at the bottom.

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3149184 Wrote:

I think you may be wrong. This site clearly states that drain is on the
side of the valve, not the bottom. :-)


You're 100% correct. In the photo of the valve, the drain is clearly
located at the side of the valve.

However, no where does it say that the valve should be installed
vertically as shown in the photo.

Did you not notice the smiley or did you just not get the joke?

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:30:36 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Oren wrote:

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 01:08:45 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

wrote:



Now I'm confused.



Yes, the show talked about the pitch, although it wasn't a brief mention of

the pitch. The entire segment (a full minute?) related to Sillcock was

about the fact that the old had split because of the pitch to the interior.

He explained in detail why the pitch should be towards the outside.



However, you mentioned that when you saw it, you thought to yourself "Why

no drain?" My question is what made you think that? I've never seen a drain

on a spigot nor have I seen any installation instructions that suggested

one. So, I ask again, not in a challenging manner, simply out of curiosity:

Is the drain something that you came up with on your own or have you seen

them installed?



I'm looking for the drain fitting I mention. Not from the show, but

what can be added to the hose bib feature.



I'll find it and hopefully explain how the interior line can be

drained - regardless of the pitch in the pipe.



It basically adds up to draining the pipe for winter months.



Thanks, but I don't need a picture - a drain is a drain - I just need a

direct answer to my question.



It's not a hard question. Where do you get the idea to add an internal

drain to a sillcock?

IDK what he's they're talking about either. Drain? What drain?
Freeze-proof sillcocks don't have a drain. They just have the
valve 18"+ or so back with a long valve stem so the water gets
shut off inside the house where it doesn't freeze. The valve
is installed horizontal or very slightly pitched downward.
When you turn it off, the remaining water runs out of the pipe
like any other water would out of a sillcock. That's why if
you leave a hose on it that's full of water it will freeze
and bust. Or if you're dumb enough to put it in with it tilted
back into the house, it can stay full of water.

If you did put a "drain" in it, IDK how that would work or
where the water would go. The whole purpose of these things was
so that you didn't have to shut them off and drain them in the
winter and so you could have water available all year long.

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:40:44 PM UTC-5, Bob F wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,

There is a beveled spacer to be betweeon wall and bib. Whoever

installed it was not paying attention or s(he) was an idiot?

I have several of them out t my cabin. Since it was built more than

10 ers ago, nothing happened to them. I has also heated basement.

Owner ought hear the water gushing out......!



As far as I can tell, the beveled washer was to account for siding slope. If

the faucet is level - as long as it doesn't slope upward towards the outside, it

will drain fine. A few drops left in the tube won't cause any problem.

+1

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 6:49:56 PM UTC-5, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

wrote:



I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes

Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where

The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.



They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.

It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior

of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the

interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the

owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water

on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came

back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward

so that they drain.



That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.



Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from

draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,

how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?



Some of them have vacuum breakers. This one mentions the valve should

be slanted downwards.

http://www.woodfordmfg.com/woodford/...ucetWorks.html

Also says the hose must be disconnected before freezing weather.

I think these things are totally unnecessary. Cost 6-8 times more

than a common reliable hose bib.

So what? It still only costs $20 and they last for
decades.




I have 2 hose faucets and before winter I just close the inside

valves, disconnect the hoses and open the faucets. BFD

And then besides having to remember to do that, go through
it each year, you also have no water available outside for
months. With a freeze-proof one, if you need to wash something
off on a moderate winter day, the water is available.

In fact, it would be nice if they plumbed one near the
garage with both hot and cold water, so that you could
mix it as needed.





The pipes from the inside valve to the outside faucet look level to

me. They drain fine. Galvanized steel pipes.

Level is OK, as long as it's not tipped backward.

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:12:38 PM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
DerbyDad is saying that he's seen many references on how to install an

frost proof outdoor hydrant, and none of them have recommended

installing a shut off valve with drain upstream of the hydrant.



That is because none is required. I've seen some cases where
they have installed a shut-off, but never a drain. The shut-off
apparently is so that if you want to turn it off so that no one
can turn it on from outside, eg when you're away, you can do so.
I wouldn't bother. If I'm going away for an extended period, I
just turn the main water valve off to prevent any accidental water
even anywhere in the house.




I believe that because most of these TV shows rely solely on the

knowledge of the film crew and actors/contractors in putting the show

together, and these guys don't know everything just as none of us do.


Apparently they know how to put in the freeze-proof sillcock,
because they did it correctly from what has been described here.





But, what bugged me is that when I did see a DIY show that did suggest

the shut off valve with drain upstream of the frost free hydrant, the

dummies soldered the valve in with the handle on top and the drain at

the SIDE of the valve body so that not all the water would drain out.


What exactly is the purpose of putting in a drain that
no one is ever going to use? The freezing section of the valve
assembly drains itself, unless you install it incorrectly, tilted
inward. Your additional drain valve would drain a couple inches
of pipe between the drain valve and the valve at the end of the
FP sillcock, which is inside, where it can't freeze. Good grief.





It takes someone who's brain is barely funtioning from lack of use not

to realize that even if the pictures always show the drain at the side

of the valve...



http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79



that the valve should be soldered in with the drain at the bottom and

the handle sticking out horizontally at the side. That way, all the

water drains out cuz the drain is at the lowest point in the piping. It

surprised me that no one the team that made the TV show or VHS video

that I watched ever suggested they orient the valve differently so that

the drain is at the bottom.


And of course such a drain would serve no purpose.

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:15:10 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:14:18 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

wrote:



I was watching one of the various varieties of the Holmes On Homes/Holmes

Inspection/Holmes Makes It Right/Holmes For The Holidays/Holmes Is Where

The Heart Is/etc. shows last night.



They showed one of those Frost Proof Sillcocks that had frozen and split.

It turns out that it had been installed with a slant towards the interior

of the house so that it didn't drain. The water that collected near the

interior shut off froze and split the device. The plumber said that the

owner probably wouldn't have known it was split until they turned the water

on and it sprayed out of the split, which they wouldn't see until they came

back into the house. He said that they should be installed slanted outward

so that they drain.



That got me thinking, which is always dangerous.



Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from

draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,

how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

It is a big enough tube that thw wader"slumps" enough to let air in -

and the water runs out. The more likely cause of the frostproof

splitting is the owner left a hose attached. That will do it, just

about every time.

I didn't see the show, but I tend to agree. It would have to
be installed with a good bit of backward tilt for it not to
drain enough to prevent it from freezing and bursting the pipe.
Never seen that. But like you say, I have seen them freeze
from leaving a hose full of water attached. You don't even need
to remove the hose, just take the nozzle off and make sure
the rest of the hose is a couple feet lower than the sillcock.
It's when you leave it connected, full of water, with no place
for the water to drain that it then freezes.







In my case it didn't split, - it just pulled the

tube out of the faucet/valve portion - so the tap opened and water ran

through the hose the first time it got warm, and filled my window well

with water - which ran in the window and (most of it) into the laundry

tub.

Trader:

Lemme explain:

What I'm saying is that if a person is installing a frost proof outdoor hydrant, it's a good idea to put a ball valve with drain a foot or two upstream of the outdoor hydrant.

The drain on the ball valve should be on the downstream end of the ball valve and the ball valve should be installed horizontally with the drain at the BOTTOM of the ball valve.

That way, it doesn't matter which way your piping slopes. If your piping slopes the wrong way after you're done, you can:
1. Close the ball valve,
2. Open the outdoor hydrant, and
3. Drain all the water out of the piping by using the drain on the ball valve.

And, that way you get an extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection absolutely free.

It's a good idea to have a shut off valve upstream of the frost proof hydrant anyway so that you can service the hydrant without shutting off the water to any more of the house than the hydrant.

However, for the few cents more that it costs to buy a shut off valve with a drain, you get that extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection, which in my view, is money well spent. If you have a particularily cold winter, you can open the drain on the ball valve and be confident that no matter how cold it gets, there won't be any cracked piping.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:47:33 AM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
Trader:



Lemme explain:



What I'm saying is that if a person is installing a frost proof outdoor

hydrant, it's a good idea to put a ball valve with drain a foot or two

upstream of the outdoor hydrant.

Around here a hydrant is what dogs **** on.





The drain on the ball valve should be on the downstream end of the ball

valve and the ball valve should be installed horizontally with the drain

at the BOTTOM of the ball valve.



That way, it doesn't matter which way your piping slopes. If your

piping slopes the wrong way after you're done, you can:

1. Close the ball valve,

2. Open the outdoor hydrant, and

3. Drain all the water out of the piping by using the drain on the ball

valve.



Let me get this straight. While putting in a freeze-proof
sillcock, instead of just making sure it's horizontal or
slightly sloping outward, you should instead screw up the
install, let it slope the wrong way, but put in an extra valve
with drain so that you can then drain it? Good grief!






And, that way you get an extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection

absolutely free.


The whole point of the freeze-proof sill cock is that it's
long enough so that it won't freeze. They come in various lenths,
up to at least 24" so that the valve section is inside WHERE IT
CAN"T FREEZE. You can leave it on
all year and you don't have to fiddle around turning off
the sillcock and draining it. What idiot would put one in
and then a use another valve with drain to turn it off
and drain it?




It's a good idea to have a shut off valve upstream of the frost proof

hydrant anyway so that you can service the hydrant without shutting off

the water to any more of the house than the hydrant.


It's a sillcock. The hydrant is what dogs **** on. And if
you need to service it, how about if you need to service the
extra valve you just put in, the drain that starts leaking
over time, etc?





However, for the few cents more that it costs to buy a shut off valve

with a drain,

A valve with drain is just a few cents?



you get that extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection,

which in my view, is money well spent. If you have a particularily cold

winter, you can open the drain on the ball valve and be confident that

no matter how cold it gets, there won't be any cracked piping.


If the frost proof sillcock is installed correctly,
it won't freeze. If you install it half-assed, then
you shouldn't be installing one. And if you're going to
put a valve and drain the pipe manually, then why on earth
would you put in a freeze-proof one to begin with?

A hose full of water will split the faucet?

Didn't know that.

Why wouldn't the flexible hose just give with the expanding water?

On 11/14/2013 3:43 PM, TimR wrote:
A hose full of water will split the faucet?

Didn't know that.

Why wouldn't the flexible hose just give with the expanding water?


The water remaining in the "tube" part of the faucet expands, and splits
the tube.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:14:18 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Wouldn't there be a vacuum effect that would prevent the sillcock from
draining even if it was slanted outwards? With the tube filled with water,
how would air get into the device to allow the water to drain?

No vacuum.

You're thinking of that straw trick where you dip the straw in the soda, put your finger over the end, and the soda doesn't run out.

That only works if the tube is VERTICAL.

Try it horizontal some time. The liquid runs right out.

The air would come in through the end of the sillcock.

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:34:59 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:10:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:54:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:09:58 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I'm with Oren on this one.

When I replaced the frost free faucet in my sister's house, I
soldered in a ball valve with drain just a foot or two upstream of
it. One like this:

http://tinyurl.com/pu37j79

By having a ball valve upstream of the frost free hydrant, you can
service it easily without turning water off to anything more than
that one hydrant.

By having a drain cap on the downstream side of the ball valve, it
doesn't matter which way the piping slopes. If it drains to the
outside, good. If it drains to the inside, you empty the piping by
using the drain on the ball valve.

And, leaving the drain cap loose on the ball valve is advantageous
because if the ball valve ever starts to leak, the water will leak
out the drain rather than fill the piping downstream of the ball
valve and possibly freezing to crack the frost free hydrant.

Using a ball valve with drain upstream of the hydrant allows you to
protect that hydrant from cracking due to freezing no matter what.

So, you're saying that there is no purpose behind a frost-free
silcock. OK, but I think they're great inventions. No need to
drain them at all.


We were talking about pipe pitch of the fixture and the pipe end
inside the house. Tilted to drain to the exterior is better than
water held inside at freezing. With access, a thumb screw drain vale
works.

I can read. The other, more obvious conclusion would be to install
the damned thing properly in the first place. Screw the thumb screw.

And when freezing weather arrives, make sure the faucet doesn't have any drips.
If any water is leaking past it, it will freeze.

A drip shouldn't cause any problems. A hose left connected *will*. At
least the hose burst first. :-)

" wrote:
On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 6:49:56 PM UTC-5, Vic Smith wrote:

I have 2 hose faucets and before winter I just close the inside
valves, disconnect the hoses and open the faucets. BFD

And then besides having to remember to do that, go through
it each year, you also have no water available outside for
months.

Huh? No water available for months? How hard is it to open the inside valve
when you want water?