On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/10/2014 8:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:29:30 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

Still sounds like a transfer of the failure.

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:29:40 -0600, SteveF wrote:

On 1/10/2014 2:04 PM, Guv Bob wrote:

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg



Nothing obvious with the pictures provided. I do not see any burnt
wires as others have suggested.

Someone else mentioned swapping breakers. Go ahead and try this.

Other than that, you might have to trace the wiring from point A to
point B, and so on and so forth. If all are flickering I would
suspect the breaker, first, then a termination problem second.

Turn off breaker and remove from panel. Visually check the Buss
bars for damage/corrosion. If nothing, replace breaker and remove
one of the wires and swap wires with another breaker. Make sure that
both breakers are 15 amp. Make note of which breaker controls which
lighting. Only observe those lights for indication of trouble.

If the problem goes away, swap wires back and swap the other problem\
wire with the other breaker that worked. If the problem goes away,
again, replace the breaker. If not, the bug hunt begins.

This entails removing all light fixtures and switches and checking
each for proper terminations or indications of wear. Not always
a straight forward proposition.

Sometimes one has to turn the power off to the circuit, pull the
switch out of the box, turn the power back on and operate the
switch, then tap the switch with a screw driver.



Don't waste time and effort on the breaker until you do ONE simple
test. Connect a 100 watt light bulb to each breaker with clips. Turn
all the lights that flicker on. Does the light on the breaker flicker?
Yes? Breaker. No? Keep looking. It is something common to both
circuits and not common to any other circuits in the house. It is an
"edison" circuit - so the neutral is the only common and exclusive
component. Start at the neutral bus and work back - first joint in the
circuit will in all likelyhood be the problem if it is not the neutral
buss.

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/10/2014 8:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:29:30 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.
Easier diagnostic - as previously posted.

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:13 -0500, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/10/2014 8:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:29:30 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

It is a really good idea. You can say, for sure, it is or isn't the
breaker and go from there.
Easier and better to prove it IS the breaker.

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:28:52 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/10/2014 8:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:29:30 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

Still sounds like a transfer of the failure.
Stormy needs to learn HOW to diagnose. Without changing more than one
thing at a time. Pulling the breaker and disconnecting wires to
diagnose changes more than one variable trying to nail down the cause.
Clipping a lamp to the breaker does not disturb (or change) anything
and allows you to determine if the problem is in the breaker or not.
Unless BOTH sides of the breaker are bad, or the contacts to the buss
on BOTH breakers are bad, it's not the breaker. Both circuits started
flickering at the same time, according to the OP. I'm not a
statistician, so I can't give you accurate odds of both circuits
failing the same way at the same time, but I'd say likely something
north of 1000:1

Significantly better than 1000:1 chance it is a neutral connection
problem somewhere.

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 23:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:28:52 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 21:02:54 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/10/2014 8:26 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:29:30 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

Still sounds like a transfer of the failure.
Stormy needs to learn HOW to diagnose. Without changing more than one
thing at a time. Pulling the breaker and disconnecting wires to
diagnose changes more than one variable trying to nail down the cause.
Clipping a lamp to the breaker does not disturb (or change) anything
and allows you to determine if the problem is in the breaker or not.
Unless BOTH sides of the breaker are bad, or the contacts to the buss
on BOTH breakers are bad, it's not the breaker. Both circuits started
flickering at the same time, according to the OP. I'm not a
statistician, so I can't give you accurate odds of both circuits
failing the same way at the same time, but I'd say likely something
north of 1000:1

Significantly better than 1000:1 chance it is a neutral connection
problem somewhere.

If you look closely at those two breakers. It is a single unit. It
is a double pole breaker with no tie bar. I am betting on the neutral
too, but not as strongly as I did before I noticed the breaker is one
thing.

On 1/10/2014 9:51 PM, wrote:

Don't waste time and effort on the breaker until you do ONE simple
test. Connect a 100 watt light bulb to each breaker with clips. Turn
all the lights that flicker on. Does the light on the breaker flicker?
Yes? Breaker. No? Keep looking. It is something common to both
circuits and not common to any other circuits in the house. It is an
"edison" circuit - so the neutral is the only common and exclusive
component. Start at the neutral bus and work back - first joint in the
circuit will in all likelyhood be the problem if it is not the neutral
buss.


This is a very sound method. I only recommend swapping wires since it
will take zero extra materials, will take about 2 minutes to complete
the swap/inspection.

A process like yours will give a result. However, the lamp
will have a different neutral connection (note to guv, do not put the
lamp across both breakers - go between one breaker and the neutral
buss).

The second part would be to isolate the wiring in the panel, and trace
the neutral wires of each circuit to the neutral buss, and make sure the
connections are good. Turn off breaker, loosen and inpect wire, re-
connect to neutral buss and tighten. Be very careful. One hand in
panel, the other holding a good, insulated screw driver. Someone might
have added another circuit, so treat the neutral as if it were live.

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

Still sounds like a transfer of the failure.
Stormy needs to learn HOW to diagnose. Without changing more than one
thing at a time. Pulling the breaker and disconnecting wires to
diagnose changes more than one variable trying to nail down the cause.
Clipping a lamp to the breaker does not disturb (or change) anything
and allows you to determine if the problem is in the breaker or not.
Unless BOTH sides of the breaker are bad, or the contacts to the buss
on BOTH breakers are bad, it's not the breaker. Both circuits started
flickering at the same time, according to the OP. I'm not a
statistician, so I can't give you accurate odds of both circuits
failing the same way at the same time, but I'd say likely something
north of 1000:1

Significantly better than 1000:1 chance it is a neutral connection
problem somewhere.

If you look closely at those two breakers. It is a single unit. It
is a double pole breaker with no tie bar. I am betting on the neutral
too, but not as strongly as I did before I noticed the breaker is one
thing.


*It is actually a twin 15/15 circuit breaker. Two single pole breakers on
one unit. A two pole breaker for this panel would have to straddle over the
center in order to catch the other phase on the right side of the panel.
You can see from the main circuit breaker that one phase is on the left and
the other is on the right.

All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg



Nothing obvious with the pictures provided. I do not see any burnt
wires as others have suggested.

Someone else mentioned swapping breakers. Go ahead and try this.

Other than that, you might have to trace the wiring from point A to
point B, and so on and so forth. If all are flickering I would
suspect the breaker, first, then a termination problem second.

Turn off breaker and remove from panel. Visually check the Buss
bars for damage/corrosion. If nothing, replace breaker and remove
one of the wires and swap wires with another breaker. Make sure that
both breakers are 15 amp. Make note of which breaker controls which
lighting. Only observe those lights for indication of trouble.

If the problem goes away, swap wires back and swap the other problem\
wire with the other breaker that worked. If the problem goes away,
again, replace the breaker. If not, the bug hunt begins.

This entails removing all light fixtures and switches and checking
each for proper terminations or indications of wear. Not always
a straight forward proposition.

Sometimes one has to turn the power off to the circuit, pull the
switch out of the box, turn the power back on and operate the
switch, then tap the switch with a screw driver.



Don't waste time and effort on the breaker until you do ONE simple
test. Connect a 100 watt light bulb to each breaker with clips. Turn
all the lights that flicker on. Does the light on the breaker flicker?
Yes? Breaker. No? Keep looking. It is something common to both
circuits and not common to any other circuits in the house. It is an
"edison" circuit - so the neutral is the only common and exclusive
component. Start at the neutral bus and work back - first joint in the
circuit will in all likelyhood be the problem if it is not the neutral
buss.

*In theory it sounds like a good easy method to connect a 100 watt bulb and
see if it flickers. However a 100 watt bulb is much less of a load than all
of the lights in the house and it may work just fine. The problem is not
constant, but intermittent. Since the two breakers are one unit, they are
the common link for the two circuits that are having the problem. There are
two black wires indicating that it is not a three wire with a common
neutral.

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:38:32 -0500, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

Still sounds like a transfer of the failure.
Stormy needs to learn HOW to diagnose. Without changing more than one
thing at a time. Pulling the breaker and disconnecting wires to
diagnose changes more than one variable trying to nail down the cause.
Clipping a lamp to the breaker does not disturb (or change) anything
and allows you to determine if the problem is in the breaker or not.
Unless BOTH sides of the breaker are bad, or the contacts to the buss
on BOTH breakers are bad, it's not the breaker. Both circuits started
flickering at the same time, according to the OP. I'm not a
statistician, so I can't give you accurate odds of both circuits
failing the same way at the same time, but I'd say likely something
north of 1000:1

Significantly better than 1000:1 chance it is a neutral connection
problem somewhere.

If you look closely at those two breakers. It is a single unit. It
is a double pole breaker with no tie bar. I am betting on the neutral
too, but not as strongly as I did before I noticed the breaker is one
thing.


*It is actually a twin 15/15 circuit breaker. Two single pole breakers on
one unit. A two pole breaker for this panel would have to straddle over the
center in order to catch the other phase on the right side of the panel.
You can see from the main circuit breaker that one phase is on the left and
the other is on the right.

Well then, that makes the situation even more bizarre. So according
to you, those two breakers are on the same phase? It
couldn't/shouldn't be a split neutral thing at all.

For diagnostic, swap the lights wires off that
breaker, with the wires off another breaker.

Are you sayin' to transfer the failure?

No, I'm saying to swap the wires of a couple
breakers. See if the problem follows the wires,
or the breakers. Like I said, diagnostic. Didn't
say repair, at this step.

Still sounds like a transfer of the failure.
Stormy needs to learn HOW to diagnose. Without changing more than one
thing at a time. Pulling the breaker and disconnecting wires to
diagnose changes more than one variable trying to nail down the cause.
Clipping a lamp to the breaker does not disturb (or change) anything
and allows you to determine if the problem is in the breaker or not.
Unless BOTH sides of the breaker are bad, or the contacts to the buss
on BOTH breakers are bad, it's not the breaker. Both circuits started
flickering at the same time, according to the OP. I'm not a
statistician, so I can't give you accurate odds of both circuits
failing the same way at the same time, but I'd say likely something
north of 1000:1

Significantly better than 1000:1 chance it is a neutral connection
problem somewhere.

If you look closely at those two breakers. It is a single unit. It
is a double pole breaker with no tie bar. I am betting on the neutral
too, but not as strongly as I did before I noticed the breaker is one
thing.


*It is actually a twin 15/15 circuit breaker. Two single pole breakers on
one unit. A two pole breaker for this panel would have to straddle over
the
center in order to catch the other phase on the right side of the panel.
You can see from the main circuit breaker that one phase is on the left
and
the other is on the right.

Well then, that makes the situation even more bizarre. So according
to you, those two breakers are on the same phase?

Correct.

It couldn't/shouldn't be a split neutral thing at all.

There is no red wire, only two blacks indicating that it is not a three
wire, but 2 two wires.

Put the 100 Watt test lamp on at the output of the breaker, then turn on all the ceiling lights to cause the flickering. When you get the flickering, see if the 100W bulb also flickers. If you can't see the ceiling lights from the electrical panel, put the 100W bulb at the end of a long extension cord so you can see the bulb aand the ceiling lights at the same time. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

"Metspitzer" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:04:47 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Guv Bob" wrote in message m...
All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg

From the first photo, it looks like the two wires you have marked are
both black. How do they leave the panel? It looks like they go out
the bottom. It is strange they would go out the bottom to feed
lights. Do they go into a pipe or a cable? How many wires total are
in the same pipe/cable?

The black feeders from the light CB's wrap down below the breakers, then back up the right side and out the top with 4 other conductors.

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:25:39 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:04:47 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Guv Bob" wrote in message m...
All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg

From the first photo, it looks like the two wires you have marked are
both black. How do they leave the panel? It looks like they go out
the bottom. It is strange they would go out the bottom to feed
lights. Do they go into a pipe or a cable? How many wires total are
in the same pipe/cable?

The black feeders from the light CB's wrap down below the breakers, then back up the right side and out the top with 4 other conductors.

Try turning on all the lights in the house and just see if the white
wire gets warm.

On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 18:39:36 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

You may have a loose neutral on the house or in the panel. You've
checked the hots but a neutral can do this, too. BTDT.

Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB & cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning -- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


"Guv Bob" wrote in message m...
All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

On 1/12/2014 12:12 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB & cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning -- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


"Guv Bob" wrote in message m...
All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

Thank you for the follow up. I'm glad it was some thing simple like
cleaning some terminals. A good chance for the rest of us to learn from
your experience.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Guv Bob" wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB &
cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and
their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens
originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning
-- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


My question is this:

Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

I had rust in my panel a while back. The source was the service cable.
Water was getting into the wire where it entered the meter and traveling
along the cable, up and down, until it came into the panel. I sealed the
junction and also cut a small slit in the service cable jacket at it's
lowest point (a small dip) along it's run. Water dripped from the slit for
a little while.

I haven't seen any more evidence of water in the panel. I check the slit
every now and then and there is no evidence that the water is dripping from
it, so I'm pretty sure the sealant solved the issue.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ...
"Guv Bob" wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB &
cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and
their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens
originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning
-- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


My question is this:

Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

The photos make it look worse than it is. Mostly that's dust. It's in a low foggy area, panel is 50+ years old on the side of the house that the rain hits.

I had rust in my panel a while back. The source was the service cable.
Water was getting into the wire where it entered the meter and traveling
along the cable, up and down, until it came into the panel. I sealed the
junction and also cut a small slit in the service cable jacket at it's
lowest point (a small dip) along it's run. Water dripped from the slit for
a little while.

I haven't seen any more evidence of water in the panel. I check the slit
every now and then and there is no evidence that the water is dripping from
it, so I'm pretty sure the sealant solved the issue.

"Guv Bob" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Guv Bob" wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB &
cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and
their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens
originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning
-- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


My question is this:

Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

The photos make it look worse than it is. Mostly that's dust. It's in a
low foggy area, panel is 50+ years old on the side of the house that the rain hits.


You have rust colored dust? That's dust on the screw heads? That's dust on
the uninsulated section of the wires? That's dust on the top of the neutral
bar at the top screw? I think not.

In any case, the fact that you had flickering lights and that cleaning the
CB connections fixed the problem indicates that conditions inside the box
are degrading.

"The panel can use some cleaning -- something for another day."

IMHO, that day should be very soon.

wrote:
Put the 100 Watt test lamp on at the output of the breaker, then turn on all the ceiling lights to cause the flickering. When you get the flickering, see if the 100W bulb also flickers. If you can't see the ceiling lights from the electrical panel, put the 100W bulb at the end of a long extension cord so you can see the bulb aand the ceiling lights at the same time. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!


That's what a wife is for!

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On 01/12/2014 10:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
X
Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

The photos make it look worse than it is. Mostly that's dust. It's in a
low foggy area, panel is 50+ years old on the side of the house that the rain hits.


You have rust colored dust? That's dust on the screw heads? That's dust on
the uninsulated section of the wires? That's dust on the top of the neutral
bar at the top screw? I think not.

In any case, the fact that you had flickering lights and that cleaning the
CB connections fixed the problem indicates that conditions inside the box
are degrading.

"The panel can use some cleaning -- something for another day."

IMHO, that day should be very soon.



It's my experience in the industrial world that cleaning connections is
only a temporary fix. The only true repair is to replace all.

Of course the stuff I worked on was several hundred amps...a 15 amp wire
may hold up ok...but I'd check all connections periodically.

Put the 100 Watt test lamp on at the output of the breaker, then turn on all the ceiling lights to cause the flickering. When you get the flickering, see if the 100W bulb also flickers. If you can't see the ceiling lights from the electrical panel, put the 100W bulb at the end of a long extension cord so you can see the bulb aand the ceiling lights at the same time. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

That's what a wife is for!

After 55+ years of marriage, I know what I can and can't ask for g.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ...
"Guv Bob" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Guv Bob" wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB &
cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and
their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens
originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning
-- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


My question is this:

Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

The photos make it look worse than it is. Mostly that's dust. It's in a
low foggy area, panel is 50+ years old on the side of the house that the rain hits.


You have rust colored dust? That's dust on the screw heads? That's dust on
the uninsulated section of the wires? That's dust on the top of the neutral
bar at the top screw? I think not.

Good grief. Get a life.

In any case, the fact that you had flickering lights and that cleaning the
CB connections fixed the problem indicates that conditions inside the box
are degrading.

"The panel can use some cleaning -- something for another day."

IMHO, that day should be very soon.

"Guv Bob" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Guv Bob" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Guv Bob" wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB &
cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot and
their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens
originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some cleaning
-- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


My question is this:

Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

The photos make it look worse than it is. Mostly that's dust. It's in a
low foggy area, panel is 50+ years old on the side of the house that the rain hits.


You have rust colored dust? That's dust on the screw heads? That's dust on
the uninsulated section of the wires? That's dust on the top of the neutral
bar at the top screw? I think not.

Good grief. Get a life.


I have a life and I plan to keep living it. If my panel was degraded to
such a state that it was causing loose connections, I'd fix it ASAP before
a fire started. I found the moisture in my panel while trying to figure out
why *my* lights were flickering. I noticed the rust and tracked the cause
down to the water in the service cable. I took care of it immediately.

As it turned out, the flickering was caused by a loose cable at the pole,
but I still knew enough that rust in a service panel is not something to
leave as a project "for another day".

Thanks to all for the tips and good info. I pulled out the tandem CB
&
cleaned all contacts and the flickering stopped. Checked Home Depot
and
their equivalent is $54 by Connecticut Electric. Mine is Siemens
originally installed in 1961.

Here are some odd photos for curiosity. The panel can use some
cleaning
-- something for another day.

CB Wires Running out of Panel to House
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/24/m966.jpg

Siemens Tandem CB (2 separate signal-pole circuits)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/543/dl9w.jpg

Connections sanded and cleaned
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/856/dmyz.jpg

Neutral bus
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/716/eezs.jpg


My question is this:

Why is there so much rust in the panel? Is the house extremely humid
or is
water getting into the panel via some kind of leak?

The photos make it look worse than it is. Mostly that's dust. It's in
a
low foggy area, panel is 50+ years old on the side of the house that
the rain hits.


You have rust colored dust? That's dust on the screw heads? That's dust
on
the uninsulated section of the wires? That's dust on the top of the
neutral
bar at the top screw? I think not.

Good grief. Get a life.


I have a life and I plan to keep living it. If my panel was degraded to
such a state that it was causing loose connections, I'd fix it ASAP before
a fire started. I found the moisture in my panel while trying to figure
out
why *my* lights were flickering. I noticed the rust and tracked the cause
down to the water in the service cable. I took care of it immediately.

As it turned out, the flickering was caused by a loose cable at the pole,
but I still knew enough that rust in a service panel is not something to
leave as a project "for another day".


*Save your keystrokes Derby. You're talking to someone who won't even
replace a 50+ year old breaker to ensure his own comfort and piece of mind.
That panel is past its rated life and should be replaced and I am guessing
that the service that feeds it as well. The next owner of the house will
take care of it.

"John Grabowski" wrote:

.... Snip ...


*Save your keystrokes Derby. You're talking to someone who won't even
replace a 50+ year old breaker to ensure his own comfort and piece of
mind. That panel is past its rated life and should be replaced and I am
guessing that the service that feeds it as well. The next owner of the
house will take care of it.

Thanks for the support, John.

On 1/13/2014 10:14 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
"John Grabowski" wrote:

.... Snip ...


*Save your keystrokes Derby. You're talking to someone who won't even
replace a 50+ year old breaker to ensure his own comfort and piece of
mind. That panel is past its rated life and should be replaced and I am
guessing that the service that feeds it as well. The next owner of the
house will take care of it.

Thanks for the support, John.


Good job, Bob. Personally I would update the panel to something new,
but that is *me*. Nothing in the images that you showed would be an
OMG moment to an electrician. Nothing but normal oxidation and thermal
cycling present.

Derby, rust on copper wires? Really?

SteveF wrote:
On 1/13/2014 10:14 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
"John Grabowski" wrote:

.... Snip ...


*Save your keystrokes Derby. You're talking to someone who won't even
replace a 50+ year old breaker to ensure his own comfort and piece of
mind. That panel is past its rated life and should be replaced and I am
guessing that the service that feeds it as well. The next owner of the
house will take care of it.

Thanks for the support, John.


Good job, Bob. Personally I would update the panel to something new,
but that is *me*. Nothing in the images that you showed would be an
OMG moment to an electrician. Nothing but normal oxidation and thermal
cycling present.

Derby, rust on copper wires? Really?

I never said there was rust on the wires. I questioned the claim that it
was dust. Not the same thing.

Rust in the panel, corrosion on the wires, etc. are all signs that there
are problems within the panel - age, moisture, whatever - that should be
addressed.

The fact that the problem was solved by cleaning the breaker and the
connection indicates that the rust and corrosion are impacting the
performance of the panel.

John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...

--
Tekkie

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:48:27 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...
There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:48:27 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...
There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.

I could be wrong, but I believe NEC allows for 2 wires per connection for panels.

"Tekkie®" wrote in message ...
John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...

--
Tekkie

Don't quote me on this, but I think it's OK.

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:51:58 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:48:27 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...
There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.

I could be wrong, but I believe NEC allows for 2 wires per connection for panels.
I know some inspectors don't

On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:52:50 -0800, "Guv Bob"
wrote:

"Tekkie®" wrote in message ...
John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...

--
Tekkie

Don't quote me on this, but I think it's OK.
Not sure about neutrals but only one per post on the line side of a
breaker here.

On 1/14/2014 12:51 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:48:27 -0500,
wrote:

John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...
There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.

I could be wrong, but I believe NEC allows for 2 wires per connection for panels.


The NEC allows more than 1 wire on a breaker only if the breaker was
tested that way. The manufacturer indicates if 2 wires can be used.
SquareD pu to 30A is the only one I am aware of that allows 2 wires.
Those breakers are made to apply pressure to both wires. I don't see a
similar feature on the breakers in the picture.

But I only see one wire per terminal.

Some panels were also tested for 2 wires on a ground connection - the
label will say if it is allowed.

Two wires are not allowed on neutral connections.

wrote in message
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 22:51:58 -0800, "Guv Bob"

stuff snipped

There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.

I could be wrong, but I believe NEC allows for 2 wires per connection for
panels.
I know some inspectors don't

It depends, so I have been told, on whether the equipment manufacturer
certifies that the equipment can be used with multiple wires. The neutral
bus bar I just bought for a SquareD panel says it can handle up to two #12
wires per hole and comes with a little self-adhesive label for the circuit
panel that indicates the bar can be used with multiple wires. I assume that
label is included to inform inspectors that two wires can be placed under
one screw.

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 10:27:50 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 1/14/2014 12:51 AM, Guv Bob wrote:
wrote in message ...
On Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:48:27 -0500,
wrote:

John Grabowski posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


All the ceiling lights in the house started flickering intermittently, as if
there is a loose connection in the circuit. It's just the light - wall
receptacles are fine.

It is not happening all the time or at a particular time of day. My first
guess was a loose connection at the circuit breaker panel, but all the
connections there are good, and the breaker is fully on.

I know this is not much info, but all I have at this point. I don't think
we have rats, but I can picture a big fat rat chewing on a cable in the
attic.

For the electrical folks, how would you go about troubleshooting this?

Thanks in advance.

Bob

===
Photos of the panel:

View from Left:
http://imageshack.com/a/img560/852/xvkt.jpg
The 2 light circuits are on the same dual breaker module.

View from Right:
http://imageshack.com/a/img856/8070/c7xk.jpg


*The circuit breaker for ceiling lights 1 seems to have some discoloration
on the busbar above the wire terminal screw. There is also a slight
discoloration on the white wire in front of it indicating that it was
exposed to excessive heat. Siemens makes replacement Pushmatic circuit
breakers. You can get them at an electrical supply that is a Siemens
distributor.

Here is an example of the replacement, but I don't recommend buying a used
product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/220858664088?lpid=82

It may just my vision but are the wires inserted
under the screws on the proper side? Hard for me
to see...
There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.

I could be wrong, but I believe NEC allows for 2 wires per connection for panels.


The NEC allows more than 1 wire on a breaker only if the breaker was
tested that way. The manufacturer indicates if 2 wires can be used.
SquareD pu to 30A is the only one I am aware of that allows 2 wires.
Those breakers are made to apply pressure to both wires. I don't see a
similar feature on the breakers in the picture.

But I only see one wire per terminal.

Some panels were also tested for 2 wires on a ground connection - the
label will say if it is allowed.

Two wires are not allowed on neutral connections.

And the picture clearly shows several instances.

On 1/13/2014 10:15 PM, wrote:

There are multiple wires under several screws - which I believe is
against code.


Using multiple wires on approved terminals is allowed. Ever seen a
back wired Spec grade Leviton receptacle or switch? Many terminals
allow for at least two wires. Some terminals allow for more.

Pretty much every relay base I ever installed allowed two wires per
terminal. Some barrel type terminals allow for more than two. This
is not common in residential applications, though. Two is always
a max for me. Wire gauge and cross sectional allowance of the
terminal are the main factor.