Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient
furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the
premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in
gas.

On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of
repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it
might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread)
I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that
stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when
he came.)

I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs
putting in their own homes?

On Monday, December 2, 2013 10:27:39 PM UTC-8, Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient

furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the

premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in

gas.



On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of

repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it

might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread)

I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that

stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when

he came.)



I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The

ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs

putting in their own homes?

Before worrying about a more efficient furnace have you done everything else to make your home more efficient? Do you have double windows, and a thick, even insulation in your attic and crawl space under the house? Did you check all your ducting to make sure there aren’t any leaks and that it is well insulated? Are all your outside walls insulated? If you do all of these you probably won’t even need a more efficient furnace, and you won’t need an expert to insulate.

Before worrying about a more efficient furnace have you done
everything else to make your home more efficient? Do you have double
windows, and a thick, even insulation in your attic and crawl space
under the house? Did you check all your ducting to make sure there
aren’t any leaks and that it is well insulated? Are all your outside
walls insulated? If you do all of these you probably won’t even need a
more efficient furnace, and you won’t need an expert to insulate.

Excellent points but I'm pretty sure the existing furnace has a cracked
heat exchanger and replacement is mandatory immediately. (See seperate
thread about that.)

But since you asked, no the house is terribly inefficient. Built in 1957
with metal window frames, no insulation in the walls, concrete slab floor.
It does seem laughable to have a super efficient furnace in combination
with those things and if one were choosing what to put money into, it would
be these other things first.

On the other hand, all of those things mean more heat is required and a
super efficent furnace is going to make more heat with less money. If
rebate and tax credit pay for most of the difference then maybe this is the
way to go.

On 12/3/2013 1:59 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
Excellent points but I'm pretty sure the existing furnace has a cracked
heat exchanger and replacement is mandatory immediately. (See seperate
thread about that.)

But since you asked, no the house is terribly inefficient. Built in 1957
with metal window frames, no insulation in the walls, concrete slab floor.
It does seem laughable to have a super efficient furnace in combination
with those things and if one were choosing what to put money into, it would
be these other things first.

On the other hand, all of those things mean more heat is required and a
super efficent furnace is going to make more heat with less money. If
rebate and tax credit pay for most of the difference then maybe this is the
way to go.

The techs I talk to, say that the early versions of
high efficiency had problems, but now days they are
much more dependable. Mine is a York, down flow in
my trailer. It's about 90% efficiency, didn't say
on the box. The only trouble I've had was that the
draft inducer fan went bad, it some how wore through
the outer shell, and I had to replace it. Took me a
couple hours to track down another fan, and put it in.

With today's political climate, very often the choice
of anything is based on what is subsidized, rebated, or
politically correct. As you've got a cracked exchanger,
I'd go in the direction of whatever is subsidized.

If you're figuring to do insullation and such, please
consider going down a size of furnace. Me, took out 80K
unit, and put in a 70K. And also some cellulose in the
ceiling. That is keeping me comfortable.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Big Giant Head" wrote in message
m...

Before worrying about a more efficient furnace have you done
everything else to make your home more efficient? Do you have double
windows, and a thick, even insulation in your attic and crawl space
under the house? Did you check all your ducting to make sure there
arent any leaks and that it is well insulated? Are all your outside
walls insulated? If you do all of these you probably wont even need a
more efficient furnace, and you wont need an expert to insulate.

Excellent points but I'm pretty sure the existing furnace has a cracked
heat exchanger and replacement is mandatory immediately. (See seperate
thread about that.)


To check for cracks in the heat exchanger , close off all heat registers.
Run furnace and when blower starts watch the burner flame. If there is a
crack the air pressure will blow against the flame and you can see that
movement. That is how the gas utility checks it. WW






But since you asked, no the house is terribly inefficient. Built in 1957
with metal window frames, no insulation in the walls, concrete slab floor.
It does seem laughable to have a super efficient furnace in combination
with those things and if one were choosing what to put money into, it would
be these other things first.

On the other hand, all of those things mean more heat is required and a
super efficent furnace is going to make more heat with less money. If
rebate and tax credit pay for most of the difference then maybe this is the
way to go.

Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient
furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the
premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in
gas.

On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of
repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it
might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread)
I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that
stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when
he came.)

I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs
putting in their own homes?

Hi,
I have performance series 96%, 100K BTU one going into 3rd year of
service. Installed by pro installer who knows what he is doing.
So far not a single problem. My ac unit is also matching performance
series 3 ton unit little older than furnace, No problem either. So far
all I did was cleaning the condenser unit at the beginning of season.
This week we're experiencing -35C with lots of snow and cold wind.

On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs
putting in their own homes?

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:




High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills.

Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or
better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs
in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost?

Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler
are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600
ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the
numbers and factor in some repair cost.

On 12/03/2013 05:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:




High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills.

Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or
better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs
in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost?

Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler
are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600
ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the
numbers and factor in some repair cost.


Very impressive, Ed!

So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more expensive 96% efficiency furnace?

Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr.

While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than $500/yr.

On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote:


So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or
better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs
in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost?

Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler
are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600
ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the
numbers and factor in some repair cost.


Very impressive, Ed!

So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more
expensive 96% efficiency furnace?

No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes
the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges

Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your
original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr.

While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than
$500/yr.


Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few
houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 3:27:31 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote:





So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge

repair bills.



Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or

better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs

in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost?



Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler

are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600

ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the

numbers and factor in some repair cost.





Very impressive, Ed!



So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more

expensive 96% efficiency furnace?



No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes

the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges



Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your

original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr.



While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than

$500/yr.





Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few

houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year.

Also the cost difference for the furnace itself is just a few hundred
bucks. The installation will likely add to that, because you're typically
going from a chimney situation, which is drop-in to a direct vent.
How hard or easy that is depends on the house specifics.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:27:31 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year.

...and mostly very damn few

Cords of wood and labor costs something...

On 12/03/2013 03:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges

The OP's furnace has a cracked heat exchanger and must be replaced so the only question is should the OP buy an 80% or 96% furnace.

The difference is 16% fuel savings...period.

Your numbers and your old unrated burner isn't relevant here. Gawdamn, are you related to trader4? Sheeeesh!

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:27:31 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote:


So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or
better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs
in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost?

Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler
are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600
ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the
numbers and factor in some repair cost.


Very impressive, Ed!

So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more
expensive 96% efficiency furnace?

No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes
the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges

Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your
original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr.

While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than
$500/yr.


Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few
houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year.
In the last 20 years I have never spent $700 for natural gas here in
Ontario Canada. That is heat and hot water.

On 12/3/2013 4:34 AM, morty wrote:

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so
but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only
$140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

Many have said this. I think there's a lot of
truth, here. And now I know that I didn't charge
myself any where near enough.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/3/2013 3:34 AM, morty wrote:
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the
cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC
techs
putting in their own homes?

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so
but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only
$140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the
furnace has kept on through two additional owners.

On 12/3/2013 8:40 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her
home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?).
So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has
kept on through two additional owners.

Gee, that's encouraging. Furnace save her five bucks,
and kills her to boot. Not me, thanks. I don't want
a furnace to kill me.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:45:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/3/2013 8:40 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her
home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?).
So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has
kept on through two additional owners.

Gee, that's encouraging. Furnace save her five bucks,
and kills her to boot. Not me, thanks. I don't want
a furnace to kill me.
I've seen too many high eff furnaces fail eithin 5 years. My
brother's had a circuit board replaced at $400+ a shot 3 times? bedore
the furnace contractor offered him a real deal on a different
manufacturer's replacement - and after it was replaced he found there
was an $80 generic replacement board that would have fixed it - and
didn't suffer from premature death syndrome

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:45:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/3/2013 8:40 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her
home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?).
So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has
kept on through two additional owners.

Gee, that's encouraging. Furnace save her five bucks,
and kills her to boot. Not me, thanks. I don't want
a furnace to kill me.
I've seen too many high eff furnaces fail eithin 5 years. My
brother's had a circuit board replaced at $400+ a shot 3 times? bedore
the furnace contractor offered him a real deal on a different
manufacturer's replacement - and after it was replaced he found there
was an $80 generic replacement board that would have fixed it - and
didn't suffer from premature death syndrome

Your brother doesn't appear to be too bright. And to think, he's the smart
one of you two.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:40:13 -0600, Moe DeLoughan
wrote in Re Choosing Furnace
Efficiency:

On 12/3/2013 3:34 AM, morty wrote:
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the
cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC
techs
putting in their own homes?

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so
but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only
$140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the
furnace has kept on through two additional owners.

How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service
call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service
trucks?

On 12/3/2013 9:07 AM, VinnyB wrote:

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the
furnace has kept on through two additional owners.

How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service
call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service
trucks?


Don't be silly, of course he's not sitting and watching for service
trucks. That's his wife's job.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:44:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/3/2013 9:07 AM, VinnyB wrote:

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the
furnace has kept on through two additional owners.

How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service
call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service
trucks?


Don't be silly, of course he's not sitting and watching for service
trucks. That's his wife's job.

He should train his dog to do the light work.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:44:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote
in Re Choosing
Furnace Efficiency:

On 12/3/2013 9:07 AM, VinnyB wrote:

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the
furnace has kept on through two additional owners.

How do you know that? Do they report to you when they make a service
call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service
trucks?


Don't be silly, of course he's not sitting and watching for service
trucks. That's his wife's job.

Ok, that makes sense now.

On 12/3/2013 8:07 AM, VinnyB wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:40:13 -0600, Moe DeLoughan
wrote in Re Choosing Furnace
Efficiency:

On 12/3/2013 3:34 AM, morty wrote:
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the
cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC
techs
putting in their own homes?

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so
but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only
$140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in
her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early
90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the
furnace has kept on through two additional owners.

How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service
call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service
trucks?


Why, we're neighborly, y'know? We talk, we even visit each other.
Hell, we even take turns mowing each other's lawns and blowing out
each other's driveways.
Every autumn I'm the most popular person in the neighborhood. I make
the rounds on my tractor and people wave me over to their yard to make
their leaves disappear. Folks love not having to rake.

I had an inexpensive no-frills (I have a small house) high-efficiency
furnace installed nine years ago. So far, no problems.

morty wrote:
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC
techs
putting in their own homes?

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so
but then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only
$140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.
Hi,
Our urnace has 10 yr P&L warranty. After that I fix it myself if
something goes wrong. Easy to get parts for Carrier furnace. I chose
X13 blower motor with speed selection taps, not the VS type which
has frequent controller problems.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins.

My old furnace was trouble-free for ~ 13 years. I replaced it with HE
furnace, the same time as the AC condenser.

No furnace hell here! A matched SEER efficiency unit.

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins.

My old furnace was trouble-free for ~ 13 years. I replaced it with HE
furnace, the same time as the AC condenser.

No furnace hell here! A matched SEER efficiency unit.

Hmmm
I wonder where that no. 7 came from? Typical furnace warranty is 10
years and often upto 15 years. heat exchange is life time. What you got
there? My last furnace was running for 22 years trouble free(really I
had to replace HSI once and resoldered all the solder joints on control
board per TSB) when I upgraded. It came with a P&L 10 yr warranty if I
register within 90 days. I registered of course.
Yup, there is furnace in hell.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:51:09 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins.

My old furnace was trouble-free for ~ 13 years. I replaced it with HE
furnace, the same time as the AC condenser.

No furnace hell here! A matched SEER efficiency unit.

Hmmm
I wonder where that no. 7 came from?

morty needed a number? So he picked 7.

"morty" wrote in message
...
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The
ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC
techs
putting in their own homes?

High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but
then furnace hell begins.

I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace.

One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only
$140.

So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge
repair bills.

You can usually get a Service Contract-mine is through the Gas Co--and it
covers all the components that you mentioned. My only problem with a 6 yr
92% was the flame sensor. Other than the contract cost my out pocket $$$$
was Zero. Actually, you saved money if these were the first costs you've had
in 9 yrs vs paying for a contract over that time frame.
Gas company periodically sends a flyer on how you're doing relative to the
average users and to neighbors. My fuel costs are only 4% higher than the
most efficient and way better (lower) than all the others. So fuel cost
savings is a major factor.
MLD

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 1:27:39 AM UTC-5, Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient

furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the

premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in

gas.



On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of

repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it

might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread)

I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that

stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when

he came.)



I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The

ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs

putting in their own homes?

I'd look at pricing of Rheem/Ruud vs the brands that are perceived as
being better. I had a Ruud that I replaced a few years ago that was
25 years old and still running. I don't know the whole history, but
it was 10 years old when I bought the house and except for putting a
hard-start kit on the AC, I didn't have any repair bills for my 15 years.
I replaced it with a Rheem, they are made by the same company. When
I looked at reviews a few years ago, according to Consumer Reports,
the repair/problem history of all the brands was about the same. In
fact, I recall Rheem was actually a little better than some of the
brands that spend a lot of $$$ on advertising. I'd rather have a Ruud
installed by the best installer, instead of a higher price system
installed by a crappy installer.

I'm curious what tax credits still exist? Back in 2010, you could
get a 30% fed tax credit up to $1500, but I thought that was all gone
now. State?

How much you save each year in operating costs is unknown, because
only you know where you live and how much gas you use. GA and MN
are going to be very different. In a cold climate 80% vs 93%
for 20 years is going to add up and the cost of the eqpt difference
isn't that great. Install of a new one however is typically going
to cost more. Also, what else is on the chimney for the existing furnace?
If there is a water heater sharing the same chimney, you'll likely
need to install a chimney liner for that. It's not a big deal, but
does add to the cost. The other option is to go with a new direct
vent water heater, if the WH is near it's EOL too.

There is truth that high efficiency units are more complex, so there
are more things that can go wrong. On the other hand, I now have
a cumulative 13 years of experience with 3 of them and haven't had
a problem yet. And if you have reasonable diagnostic skills, no reason
you can't fix them yourself. They do have wiring diagrams and if you
understand the theory of how they work, etc, they are certainly a lot
easier to diagnose and fix than many systems on a modern car.

I would also recommend putting in a whole house surge protector if
you don't already have one. Unlike an old furnace, these have
electronics, including in many cases an ECM motor.

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 06:05:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


I'm curious what tax credits still exist? Back in 2010, you could
get a 30% fed tax credit up to $1500, but I thought that was all gone
now. State?

There are still tax credits available, not as large as they were
though.

"Tax Credit: 10% of cost up to $500 or a specific amount from $50–$300
Expires: December 31, 2013 Details: Must be an existing home & your
principal residence. New construction and rentals do not qualify."

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index

If you voted for a mormon those credits aren't allowed. ****ing hypocrite.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:41:17 -0800 (PST), "Daring Dufas : Hypocrite
TeaBillie on welfare" wrote:

If you voted for a mormon those credits aren't allowed. ****ing hypocrite.

WTF are you talking about? You *must* be a lefty.

On 12/7/2013 3:41 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:41:17 -0800 (PST), "Daring Dufas : Hypocrite
TeaBillie on welfare" wrote:

If you voted for a mormon those credits aren't allowed. ****ing
hypocrite.

WTF are you talking about? You *must* be a lefty.


That's Killer Loon my fanboy, it's using part of my nym because it hates
the disabled who've paid into the system longer than Killer Loon
has bee alive. ^_^

TDD

On 12/7/2013 2:41 PM, Daring Dufas : A Sock Of Killer Loon wrote:

If you voted for a mormon those credits aren't allowed. ****ing
hypocrite.


Killer Loon, living proof that human women should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 06:05:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

I would also recommend putting in a whole house surge protector if
you don't already have one. Unlike an old furnace, these have
electronics, including in many cases an ECM motor.

Had my HVAC system replaced a few years ago. I finally had a SPD put
in at the disconnect box for the AC and changed from Al to Cu on the
circuit with the disconnect box being moved into code.


....got my tax credits too

Also, what else is on the chimney for the existing
furnace? If there is a water heater sharing the same chimney, you'll
likely need to install a chimney liner for that.

The WH shares the same pipe. The proposal for the super high efficiency
furnace calls for a new PVC tube through the roof, some sort of coaxial
thing that also brings down combustion air. It's a ranch with the roof
only maybe 6 feet or so above the ceiling level at that point.

BTW, the old unit is 90,000 BTH/H input. The proposals match that for
regular furnaces including two stage burner/fan but 80,000 BTU/H for the
super HE.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 3:36:09 PM UTC-5, Big Giant Head wrote:
Also, what else is on the chimney for the existing

furnace? If there is a water heater sharing the same chimney, you'll

likely need to install a chimney liner for that.



The WH shares the same pipe. The proposal for the super high efficiency

furnace calls for a new PVC tube through the roof, some sort of coaxial

thing that also brings down combustion air. It's a ranch with the roof

only maybe 6 feet or so above the ceiling level at that point.



BTW, the old unit is 90,000 BTH/H input. The proposals match that for

regular furnaces including two stage burner/fan but 80,000 BTU/H for the

super HE.

As others have pointed out it's really pretty simple. Try to make an estimate of your annual heating costs. Since you have a gas hw heater and probably some other gas appliances to do that you will need to calculate your average monthly summer gas cost and subtract that from your average monthly winter gas costs. Then multiple the results by the typical number of months you heat and again by 16%. That will be your estimated annual savings. Divide that into the cost difference between replacing with another 80% unit verses the 96% unit. That will give you the recovery years to break even.

The complexity is another issue that's completely unpredictable. Millions of people have many years of uninterrupted service from a high efficiency unit. But occasionally they have problems. And they do tend to be more expensive to fix.

BTW, should I even ask about replacing the HX or is that completely
ridiculous on a 26 year old unit? Actually, over the years I replaced a
gas valve, inducer motor, and inducer control board (new one has the time
delay) myself. So aside from the blower and a small circuit board, it's
just a box to hold these components, right?

I'm hoping someone is offering one with spark ignition. The more I learn
about hot surface ignitors the less I want one since I know it's going to
fail.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:26:45 -0600, Big Giant Head
wrote:

BTW, should I even ask about replacing the HX or is that completely
ridiculous on a 26 year old unit? Actually, over the years I replaced a
gas valve, inducer motor, and inducer control board (new one has the time
delay) myself. So aside from the blower and a small circuit board, it's
just a box to hold these components, right?

I'm hoping someone is offering one with spark ignition. The more I learn
about hot surface ignitors the less I want one since I know it's going to
fail.
2 different kinds of hot plate ignitors. One is pure trouble - the
other almost trouble free. The old silicon carbide are the crappy
ones. Silicon Nitride is the good stuff.