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Choosing Furnace Efficiency
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient
furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in gas. On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread) I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when he came.) I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Monday, December 2, 2013 10:27:39 PM UTC-8, Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in gas. On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread) I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when he came.) I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? Before worrying about a more efficient furnace have you done everything else to make your home more efficient? Do you have double windows, and a thick, even insulation in your attic and crawl space under the house? Did you check all your ducting to make sure there aren’t any leaks and that it is well insulated? Are all your outside walls insulated? If you do all of these you probably won’t even need a more efficient furnace, and you won’t need an expert to insulate. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in gas. On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread) I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when he came.) I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? Hi, I have performance series 96%, 100K BTU one going into 3rd year of service. Installed by pro installer who knows what he is doing. So far not a single problem. My ac unit is also matching performance series 3 ton unit little older than furnace, No problem either. So far all I did was cleaning the condenser unit at the beginning of season. This week we're experiencing -35C with lots of snow and cold wind. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
Before worrying about a more efficient furnace have you done
everything else to make your home more efficient? Do you have double windows, and a thick, even insulation in your attic and crawl space under the house? Did you check all your ducting to make sure there aren’t any leaks and that it is well insulated? Are all your outside walls insulated? If you do all of these you probably won’t even need a more efficient furnace, and you won’t need an expert to insulate. Excellent points but I'm pretty sure the existing furnace has a cracked heat exchanger and replacement is mandatory immediately. (See seperate thread about that.) But since you asked, no the house is terribly inefficient. Built in 1957 with metal window frames, no insulation in the walls, concrete slab floor. It does seem laughable to have a super efficient furnace in combination with those things and if one were choosing what to put money into, it would be these other things first. On the other hand, all of those things mean more heat is required and a super efficent furnace is going to make more heat with less money. If rebate and tax credit pay for most of the difference then maybe this is the way to go. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:
High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost? Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600 ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the numbers and factor in some repair cost. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 1:59 AM, Big Giant Head wrote:
Excellent points but I'm pretty sure the existing furnace has a cracked heat exchanger and replacement is mandatory immediately. (See seperate thread about that.) But since you asked, no the house is terribly inefficient. Built in 1957 with metal window frames, no insulation in the walls, concrete slab floor. It does seem laughable to have a super efficient furnace in combination with those things and if one were choosing what to put money into, it would be these other things first. On the other hand, all of those things mean more heat is required and a super efficent furnace is going to make more heat with less money. If rebate and tax credit pay for most of the difference then maybe this is the way to go. The techs I talk to, say that the early versions of high efficiency had problems, but now days they are much more dependable. Mine is a York, down flow in my trailer. It's about 90% efficiency, didn't say on the box. The only trouble I've had was that the draft inducer fan went bad, it some how wore through the outer shell, and I had to replace it. Took me a couple hours to track down another fan, and put it in. With today's political climate, very often the choice of anything is based on what is subsidized, rebated, or politically correct. As you've got a cracked exchanger, I'd go in the direction of whatever is subsidized. If you're figuring to do insullation and such, please consider going down a size of furnace. Me, took out 80K unit, and put in a 70K. And also some cellulose in the ceiling. That is keeping me comfortable. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 4:34 AM, morty wrote:
High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Many have said this. I think there's a lot of truth, here. And now I know that I didn't charge myself any where near enough. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 3:34 AM, morty wrote:
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote: I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 8:40 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. Gee, that's encouraging. Furnace save her five bucks, and kills her to boot. Not me, thanks. I don't want a furnace to kill me. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 1:27:39 AM UTC-5, Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in gas. On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread) I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when he came.) I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? I'd look at pricing of Rheem/Ruud vs the brands that are perceived as being better. I had a Ruud that I replaced a few years ago that was 25 years old and still running. I don't know the whole history, but it was 10 years old when I bought the house and except for putting a hard-start kit on the AC, I didn't have any repair bills for my 15 years. I replaced it with a Rheem, they are made by the same company. When I looked at reviews a few years ago, according to Consumer Reports, the repair/problem history of all the brands was about the same. In fact, I recall Rheem was actually a little better than some of the brands that spend a lot of $$$ on advertising. I'd rather have a Ruud installed by the best installer, instead of a higher price system installed by a crappy installer. I'm curious what tax credits still exist? Back in 2010, you could get a 30% fed tax credit up to $1500, but I thought that was all gone now. State? How much you save each year in operating costs is unknown, because only you know where you live and how much gas you use. GA and MN are going to be very different. In a cold climate 80% vs 93% for 20 years is going to add up and the cost of the eqpt difference isn't that great. Install of a new one however is typically going to cost more. Also, what else is on the chimney for the existing furnace? If there is a water heater sharing the same chimney, you'll likely need to install a chimney liner for that. It's not a big deal, but does add to the cost. The other option is to go with a new direct vent water heater, if the WH is near it's EOL too. There is truth that high efficiency units are more complex, so there are more things that can go wrong. On the other hand, I now have a cumulative 13 years of experience with 3 of them and haven't had a problem yet. And if you have reasonable diagnostic skills, no reason you can't fix them yourself. They do have wiring diagrams and if you understand the theory of how they work, etc, they are certainly a lot easier to diagnose and fix than many systems on a modern car. I would also recommend putting in a whole house surge protector if you don't already have one. Unlike an old furnace, these have electronics, including in many cases an ECM motor. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:40:13 -0600, Moe DeLoughan
wrote in Re Choosing Furnace Efficiency: On 12/3/2013 3:34 AM, morty wrote: On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote: I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service trucks? |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
my mom and step dad had a high efficency furnace that outlived both of them, over 15 years just one preventive maintence check right before i sold the home. i know the new owners son, who reports the furnace and air were still running well as of last august. his parents bought the home 5 years ago so that makes the furnace over 20 years old
i believe goodman offers a 10 year warranty on their equiptement most offer a lifetime heat exchanger warranty |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 9:07 AM, VinnyB wrote:
OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service trucks? Don't be silly, of course he's not sitting and watching for service trucks. That's his wife's job. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
morty wrote:
On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote: I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Hi, Our urnace has 10 yr P&L warranty. After that I fix it myself if something goes wrong. Easy to get parts for Carrier furnace. I chose X13 blower motor with speed selection taps, not the VS type which has frequent controller problems. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 06:05:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: I'm curious what tax credits still exist? Back in 2010, you could get a 30% fed tax credit up to $1500, but I thought that was all gone now. State? There are still tax credits available, not as large as they were though. "Tax Credit: 10% of cost up to $500 or a specific amount from $50–$300 Expires: December 31, 2013 Details: Must be an existing home & your principal residence. New construction and rentals do not qualify." http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 1:27:39 AM UTC-5, Big Giant Head wrote:
Our gas utility is giving rebates for buying a greater than 92% efficient furnace. There's also a tax credit available. These greatly reduce the premium for buying such a unit and then of course there is the savings in gas. On the other hand, are these machines more prone to problems and need of repairs than a simpler furnace? That could wipe everything out. Plus it might be beyond my abilities to repair. The old furnace (see other thread) I could do most maintenance. I was even able to solve a problem that stumped a pro many years ago. (Not his fault...it just didn't act up when he came.) I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? A lot depends on your geographic location. I have basic equipment. But I'm in NC where the winter is fairly mild. And I fix everything on it myself. You might find a heat pump to be a bigger savings over a high efficiency furnace depending on where you are and what your fuel is. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:27:39 -0600, Big Giant Head
wrote: There's also a tax credit available. Federal credits appear to be ending December 31, 2013. Smaller than they were a few years ago. "....ask your HVAC Contractor (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning). To verify tax credit eligibility, ask your HVAC contractor to provide the Manufacturer Certification Statement for the equipment you plan to purchase. Or, search the Manufacturer's website." _Manufacturer’s Certification Statement _ is a signed statement from the manufacturer certifying that the product or component qualifies for the tax credit. The IRS encourages manufacturers to provide these Certifications on their website to facilitate identification of qualified products. Taxpayers must keep a copy of the certification statement for their records, but do not have to submit a copy with their tax return. Drill down a bit he http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index Also check for rebates from the utility company and/or state. MY guess is that if you buy before December 31st you can still get the credit, even if it is installed on January 2nd. Check on that, to be sure. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:45:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote: On 12/3/2013 8:40 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote: OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. Gee, that's encouraging. Furnace save her five bucks, and kills her to boot. Not me, thanks. I don't want a furnace to kill me. I've seen too many high eff furnaces fail eithin 5 years. My brother's had a circuit board replaced at $400+ a shot 3 times? bedore the furnace contractor offered him a real deal on a different manufacturer's replacement - and after it was replaced he found there was an $80 generic replacement board that would have fixed it - and didn't suffer from premature death syndrome |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 8:07 AM, VinnyB wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:40:13 -0600, Moe DeLoughan wrote in Re Choosing Furnace Efficiency: On 12/3/2013 3:34 AM, morty wrote: On 12/03/2013 01:27 AM, Big Giant Head wrote: I know the pros of the super efficient furnaces. What are the cons? The ones being considered are Carrier Performance Series. What are HVAC techs putting in their own homes? High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service trucks? Why, we're neighborly, y'know? We talk, we even visit each other. Hell, we even take turns mowing each other's lawns and blowing out each other's driveways. Every autumn I'm the most popular person in the neighborhood. I make the rounds on my tractor and people wave me over to their yard to make their leaves disappear. Folks love not having to rake. I had an inexpensive no-frills (I have a small house) high-efficiency furnace installed nine years ago. So far, no problems. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote:
High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. My old furnace was trouble-free for ~ 13 years. I replaced it with HE furnace, the same time as the AC condenser. No furnace hell here! A matched SEER efficiency unit. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/03/2013 05:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote: High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. I paid $420 to have the draft inducer replaced on a 9 year old furnace. One of the vacuum safety switches also failed but that repair was only $140. So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost? Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600 ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the numbers and factor in some repair cost. Very impressive, Ed! So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more expensive 96% efficiency furnace? Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr. While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than $500/yr. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 06:05:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: I would also recommend putting in a whole house surge protector if you don't already have one. Unlike an old furnace, these have electronics, including in many cases an ECM motor. Had my HVAC system replaced a few years ago. I finally had a SPD put in at the disconnect box for the AC and changed from Al to Cu on the circuit with the disconnect box being moved into code. ....got my tax credits too :) |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:44:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/3/2013 9:07 AM, VinnyB wrote: OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. How do you know that? Do they report to you when the make a service call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service trucks? Don't be silly, of course he's not sitting and watching for service trucks. That's his wife's job. He should train his dog to do the light work. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
Oren wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote: High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. My old furnace was trouble-free for ~ 13 years. I replaced it with HE furnace, the same time as the AC condenser. No furnace hell here! A matched SEER efficiency unit. Hmmm I wonder where that no. 7 came from? Typical furnace warranty is 10 years and often upto 15 years. heat exchange is life time. What you got there? My last furnace was running for 22 years trouble free(really I had to replace HSI once and resoldered all the solder joints on control board per TSB) when I upgraded. It came with a P&L 10 yr warranty if I register within 90 days. I registered of course. Yup, there is furnace in hell. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 3:27:31 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote: So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost? Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600 ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the numbers and factor in some repair cost. Very impressive, Ed! So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more expensive 96% efficiency furnace? No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr. While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than $500/yr. Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year. Also the cost difference for the furnace itself is just a few hundred bucks. The installation will likely add to that, because you're typically going from a chimney situation, which is drop-in to a direct vent. How hard or easy that is depends on the house specifics. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote:
So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost? Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600 ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the numbers and factor in some repair cost. Very impressive, Ed! So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more expensive 96% efficiency furnace? No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr. While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than $500/yr. Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
Also, what else is on the chimney for the existing
furnace? If there is a water heater sharing the same chimney, you'll likely need to install a chimney liner for that. The WH shares the same pipe. The proposal for the super high efficiency furnace calls for a new PVC tube through the roof, some sort of coaxial thing that also brings down combustion air. It's a ranch with the roof only maybe 6 feet or so above the ceiling level at that point. BTW, the old unit is 90,000 BTH/H input. The proposals match that for regular furnaces including two stage burner/fan but 80,000 BTU/H for the super HE. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:44:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote
in Re Choosing Furnace Efficiency: On 12/3/2013 9:07 AM, VinnyB wrote: OTOH, my next door neighbor had a high-efficiency model installed in her home way back when they were fairly new on the market (80s? early 90s?). So far, only one service call. In fact, she's dead, but the furnace has kept on through two additional owners. How do you know that? Do they report to you when they make a service call, or do you sit at your window all day watching for service trucks? Don't be silly, of course he's not sitting and watching for service trucks. That's his wife's job. Ok, that makes sense now. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:51:09 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote: Oren wrote: On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:34:20 -0500, morty wrote: High efficiency furnaces are trouble-free for the first 7 years or so but then furnace hell begins. My old furnace was trouble-free for ~ 13 years. I replaced it with HE furnace, the same time as the AC condenser. No furnace hell here! A matched SEER efficiency unit. Hmmm I wonder where that no. 7 came from? morty needed a number? So he picked 7. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:27:31 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year. ...and mostly very damn few :) Cords of wood and labor costs something... |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/03/2013 03:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges The OP's furnace has a cracked heat exchanger and must be replaced so the only question is should the OP buy an 80% or 96% furnace. The difference is 16% fuel savings...period. Your numbers and your old unrated burner isn't relevant here. Gawdamn, are you related to trader4? Sheeeesh! |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:27:31 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote: So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost? Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600 ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the numbers and factor in some repair cost. Very impressive, Ed! So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more expensive 96% efficiency furnace? No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr. While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than $500/yr. Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year. In the last 20 years I have never spent $700 for natural gas here in Ontario Canada. That is heat and hot water. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 14:23:10 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:27:31 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year. ..and mostly very damn few :) There's a good reason I don't live in the ****-hole Northeast, anymore. I pay about $500/yr for heat now (and another $500-$700) for AC. Cords of wood and labor costs something... You're KILLING CHILDREN with all that CO2! |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
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Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:03:55 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote: wrote: On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:27:31 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 12/3/2013 2:22 PM, Just Joe wrote: So any fuel savings is easily offset by higher initial cost and huge repair bills. Because of the rebates and tax credits, it sounds like a wash or better for initial cost. Let's say he does have the $560 in repairs in nine years. Have you saved less than that in fuel cost? Apples and oranges, but my oil savings with a more efficient boiler are in the $800 a year range so in 9 years after repairs I'd be $6600 ahead. Rather than take your blanket statement, the OP should run the numbers and factor in some repair cost. Very impressive, Ed! So you are comparing a cheaper 80% efficiency furnace with a more expensive 96% efficiency furnace? No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges Using your $800/yr savings and a 16% more efficient furnace, your original heat bill must have been approximately $5000/yr. While I can see where it pays for you, my entire heat bill is less than $500/yr. Right, that is why the OP has to run the numbers for his situation. Few houses in the north can be heated for $500 a year. In the last 20 years I have never spent $700 for natural gas here in Ontario Canada. That is heat and hot water. Hi, If house is small enough, LOL! about 1300 sq ft 2 storey |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
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Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On 12/3/2013 7:10 PM, Just Joe wrote:
On 12/03/2013 03:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges The OP's furnace has a cracked heat exchanger and must be replaced so the only question is should the OP buy an 80% or 96% furnace. The difference is 16% fuel savings...period. Your numbers and your old unrated burner isn't relevant here. Gawdamn, are you related to trader4? Sheeeesh! I told you it was apples/oranges. Ill type it slower for you: "the OP has to run the numbers for his situation" You statement that repairs are more than savings has no proof and no merit. |
Choosing Furnace Efficiency
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Choosing Furnace Efficiency
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:57:50 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/3/2013 7:10 PM, Just Joe wrote: On 12/03/2013 03:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: No, comparing a high efficiency with my old unrated burner. That makes the percentage higher. As I said apples/oranges The OP's furnace has a cracked heat exchanger and must be replaced so the only question is should the OP buy an 80% or 96% furnace. The difference is 16% fuel savings...period. Your numbers and your old unrated burner isn't relevant here. Gawdamn, are you related to trader4? Sheeeesh! I told you it was apples/oranges. Ill type it slower for you: "the OP has to run the numbers for his situation" You statement that repairs are more than savings has no proof and no merit. Depending on the furnace, he's right. Takes a long time to save $400 worth of gas by buying 16% higher efficiency. Replace ONE $400 board and those savings take a long time to pay it back. |
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