mike wrote:
On 12/4/2013 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:17:10 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:
LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and
Halogen's light is perfect.

If you don't mind burning your house down.

Utter nonsense. You snipped the part where I said that halogen lamps
aren't any hotter than standard bulbs (cooler, actually), in the same
envelope.

Ok, a watt is a watt. But, aren't the envelopes radically different for the
same wattage in typical consumer applications?
And that leads to higher bulb surface temperatures for halogen.
First hit on wikipedia talks about how the hotter surface temperature
is required for the halogen cycle to work.

The light is pretty though.

It is. I'll keep it.


Halogen sockets often are much hotter, prone to failure. Wire insulation
hardens, breaks off, and the wire often breaks at crimps. Screw types are
usually smaller footprint causing more heat at the socket. The little push
in sockets also loose contact tension from heat. I've fixed Or replaced so
many equipment types over the years.

I have kitchen pot lights. I use the smaller halogen screw lamps with the
smaller footprint. They work great with dimmer, and I rarely use at full
intensity. Probably only 40 watts each.

Greg

In article , Todd
wrote:

On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:
LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and
Halogen's light is perfect.

If you don't mind burning your house down.
The light is pretty though.

and you get even more light when your house burns down

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:59:19 AM UTC-5, westom wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:17:26 AM UTC-5, wrote:

You don't need airflow past the bulb. You just need a design that

can dissipate the heat from the LED itself.



No air flow over a heatsink that cools the LED means it overheats.

Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe

A - They are specifically sealed and certified to be airtight
between the living space and the attic. That is a major advantage
of LEDs, that you don't have hot air in the winter and cold air
in the summer leaking into the attic, cathedral ceiling, etc.

B - The housing is rated for direct contact with insulation,
you can cover it with insulation.

I have yet to see one talk about required minimum airflow.
Perhaps you could provide the spec sheet or install instructions
that say that.

Heatsinks, etc WITHIN the light are involved. Maybe they
rely on airflow within the fixture itself too.
But it doesn't require airflow past the fixture to keep
it from overheating. Good grief. Typical fixture is only
15W in a 5" fixture, so there isn't very much heat to
deal with.

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:00:41 PM UTC-5, Gary wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

om...

Hi,



Our electrician recommended we replace the 85 50W halogen spotlights in our

ceilings with LEDs. We live in Costa Rica where electricity is expensive

and frequent lightening strikes and power surges blow out bulbs. If

possible we will use 12V LEDs. We will also be adding a whole house surge

protector. Our apartment has recessed CFLs in the ceilings. Would that be

a better option? We have no experience with LED lighting. We would

appreciate your opinions.



Thanks,

Gary



A little additional information from the OP



Our house is in the Costa Rican mountains. Our climate is such that we need

neither air conditioning nor heat. Our electric bill is $180/mo which

covers lights and the pool pump. There are only two of us and only a few

bulbs are on at a time. Cooking and hot water are propane. Ceilings are

mostly 15 feet which makes changing bulbs inconvenient. Even with 85

halogen bulbs, the chandeliers, and the wall sconces the house is under lit.

One advantage of changing to LEDs is we can go above the 50W equivalent and

get a little more light.



Thanks,

Gary

Like someone else said, I find it interesting that you say
you have 85 recessed lights in one house. Must be one hell of a
big house. In any case, I would not convert all of them to LED
at once. What's the rush? I'd try converting to LEDs in one
room and try them out. And why do you need an electrician? There
are retrofit kits that fit the common recessed fixtures. Most
of them are just a new light/trim piece with a wire that has a
screw connector that goes into the existing bulb socket.
You can buy them for $25 and put them in yourself. Buy one
and see how you like the light. They come in different color
ranges and you may need to find the color you like.

Theoretically LEDS pay for themselves because they last for
a very long time. But CFLs were sold on that basis too and
the experiences I had with them was that many didn't last
long at all. When LED were $75, they only made sense for
special applications. Now that they are down to $25, they
are worth taking a look. One really nice feature is that
for recessed lights with an attic, cathedral ceiling, etc
above, there are airtight ones available, so there is no
air leakage from the living space. And with a cathedral
ceiling, there is room for insulation around and above
them, so you don't have a square foot of uninsulated ceiling.

In article , Todd wrote:
On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:
LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and
Halogen's light is perfect.

If you don't mind burning your house down.

So, how many house fires have been caused by excess heat from halogen
bulbs? I'd like to quantify the risk.

The light is pretty though.

Which is much more than you can say for fluorescent light. It
offends my eyes.

Cindy Hamilton
--

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:06:47 PM UTC-5, Todd wrote:
On 12/05/2013 06:36 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

In article , Todd wrote:

On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:

LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and

Halogen's light is perfect.



If you don't mind burning your house down.



So, how many house fires have been caused by excess heat from halogen

bulbs? I'd like to quantify the risk.





Hi Cindy,



I don't have any specific information.


So, then you're just spewing opinion devoid of fact.
You claim to be an electrical engineer? Then you should
know that a watt is a watt. And whether it's a halogen
or regular incandescent, 95% or so of the energy is
converted to heat. Meaning that halogens are going to
generate about the same amount of heat as a regular
incandescent. Now depending on the form factor, a halogen
bulb could have a hotter surface temp. But if for
example you replace the same form factor and wattage
light bulb with a halogen, I don't see where all the added and
allegedly dangerous heat is coming from.




If you are going to use them, make sure they are

installed in a heat resistant socket (porcelain?).

Make sure they have room to breath to wick the heat

away. Make sure the wiring is new so the insulation

won't degrade from the heat. I personally wouldn't

use them.





More FUD. Millions of people are using them. I have a variety
of them here in my house. And if they
were starting fires, you would think we's all have heard
many reports of them starting fires, they would be banned, etc.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:13:01 -0800, mike wrote:

On 12/4/2013 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:20:07 -0800, mike wrote:

On 12/4/2013 6:58 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:17:10 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:
LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and
Halogen's light is perfect.

If you don't mind burning your house down.

Utter nonsense. You snipped the part where I said that halogen lamps
aren't any hotter than standard bulbs (cooler, actually), in the same
envelope.

Ok, a watt is a watt. But, aren't the envelopes radically different for the
same wattage in typical consumer applications?

Yes and no. There are "naked" halogen bulbs that do get quite hot but
they're really no big deal if you take some small precautions. There
are also halogen bulbs that have identical envelopes to those of
standard incandescent bulbs. They come in the standard A series
envelopes, reflector spots and floods, and many other standard shapes,
intended as "tungsten" replacements. The light from these is superior
to standard bulbs.

...

Sure they do, but we're talking about a home user replacing bulbs he can
get a home depot at competitive prices. You tend to take a fringe view
and beat people over the head with it.

Based on watching this group for a while, I'd have to say that a lot of
what you say is technically correct, but irrelevant and even harmful in the
context being discussed.

Then my point stands. Halogen bulbs get no hotter than standard
"tungsten" bulbs.

The clueless asking questions don't have the knowledge or experience to
interpret what you say. If they did, they wouldn't have asked the question
in the first place.
In a practical home situation with lamps you bought from Ikea, the risk
of burning your house down is greater with halogens. "Utter nonsense"
gives the WRONG IMPRESSION.

Utter nonsense.

Some of us think in the context of the original posting.

I did. You simply can't read.

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 14:36:03 GMT, (Cindy Hamilton)
wrote:

In article , Todd wrote:
On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:
LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and
Halogen's light is perfect.

If you don't mind burning your house down.

So, how many house fires have been caused by excess heat from halogen
bulbs? I'd like to quantify the risk.

The light is pretty though.

Which is much more than you can say for fluorescent light. It
offends my eyes.

+1, except in certain circumstances. Tubes are great in workplaces.
CFLs are bad anywhere (though sometimes a reasonable tradeoff).

On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:54:45 AM UTC-5, Todd wrote:
On 12/05/2013 12:27 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:06:47 PM UTC-5, Todd wrote:

On 12/05/2013 06:36 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:



In article , Todd wrote:



On 12/04/2013 06:04 PM, wrote:



LEDs aren't ready for prime time yet and



Halogen's light is perfect.







If you don't mind burning your house down.







So, how many house fires have been caused by excess heat from halogen



bulbs? I'd like to quantify the risk.











Hi Cindy,







I don't have any specific information.





So, then you're just spewing opinion devoid of fact.

You claim to be an electrical engineer? Then you should

know that a watt is a watt. And whether it's a halogen

or regular incandescent, 95% or so of the energy is

converted to heat. Meaning that halogens are going to

generate about the same amount of heat as a regular

incandescent. Now depending on the form factor, a halogen

bulb could have a hotter surface temp. But if for

example you replace the same form factor and wattage

light bulb with a halogen, I don't see where all the added and

allegedly dangerous heat is coming from.









If you are going to use them, make sure they are



installed in a heat resistant socket (porcelain?).



Make sure they have room to breath to wick the heat



away. Make sure the wiring is new so the insulation



won't degrade from the heat. I personally wouldn't



use them.











More FUD. Millions of people are using them. I have a variety

of them here in my house. And if they

were starting fires, you would think we's all hhttp://www.led-lamps.net..au/led-energy-saving/led-vs-cfl-vs-halogenave heard

many reports of them starting fires, they would be banned, etc.





Trader4,



Do you drive with your arm outstretch and your middle

finger extended?



Here you go:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fire+hazar...+halogen+lamps



The only sources I see on that search are talking about torchere
type halogen floor lamps. They are not talking about replacing
50W flood, or the typical incandescent with an equivalent wattage
and design halogen bulb, which is what the thread is about.
The form factors of those are very different than the small, narrow
tube type bulb used in torchere lamps. If you let a drape
dangel into a torchere, it can touch the small glass tube bulb.
Replace a typical 100W incandescent bulb and there is no way
that is possible. The halogen component is inside an outter
glass shell.




From the above search:

http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/...ht-safety.html



And what credibility exactly does some randome website have?
I didn't even see anything that says who's behind it. But if you
read what they say, most of it is common sense, like let the bulb
cool off before you remove it. They also don't seem to understand
the difference between heat and temperature.




Halogen lights are popular as they are very effective,

but their greatest disadvantage is that they emit an

extraordinary amount of heat. A standard 75-watt light

bulb operates at about 260 degrees Fahrenheit, while a

300-watt halogen light bulb can reach temperatures of

up to 970 degrees Fahrenheit.



And another from the above search:

http://www.ushio.com/support/lampsafety.htm



Looks like typical manufacturers warnings that you find on
many products. Doesn't say they are burning houses down
when you replace your 50W incandescent flood with a 50W
halogen flood.




TUNGSTEN HALOGEN AND INCANDESCENT LAMPS



DANGER! Halogen lamps operate at extremely high temperatures

that can cause serious physical injuries and property damage.



Only use Halogen lamps in Halogen-approved fixtures. Fixtures

should fully contain any parts of the Halogen lamp upon the

event of a lamp burst.



Do not use Halogen lamps in close proximity of paper, cloth

or other combustible materials that can cause a fire hazard.



Lamps are very fragile. Do not drop, crush, bend or shake

them. Vibration or impact will cause filament breakage

and short lamp life.



Do not touch the Halogen bulb surface or inside reflectors

with your bare hands. Oils from skin can lead to breakage

or shorten the life of the lamp. Use clean gloves or

lint-free cloth for installation and removal.



Clean any dirt, oil, or lint away from the lamp with alcohol

and a lint-free cloth or tissue. Any foreign particles or

materials on the bulb surface can cause hot spots on the

bulb and result in lamp failure.



Never touch the lamp when it is on, or soon after it has

been turned off, as it is hot and may cause serious

burns.

http://www.led-lamps.net.au/led-ener...cfl-vs-halogen

Do not look directly at the operating lamp for any period of

time; this may cause serious eye injury.


Wow, who would have thought that?






Always turn off the electrical power before inserting,

removing, or cleaning the lamp.



Affix the lamp securely in the socket. Improper installations

will cause electrical arcing, overheating and short life to

lamp and socket. Replace lamp holders and sockets when

necessary.



Keep the temperature of the Halogen lamp seal below 350� C.

Keep the temperature of the Halogen bulb wall above 250� C.

Keep the temperature of the Halogen lamp bulb wall below 800� C.



Make sure lamps of specified wattage and voltage are only used

in appropriately rated fixtures. Unspecified use will lead to

short lamp life, breakage and overheating of fixture.



Lamps should not be operated beyond the total rated voltage.

Avoid the use of dimmers that may drive your lamp over its

rated voltage.



Operate the lamp only in the indicated burn position. Failure

to do so will lead to overheating and shortened lamp life.



Use an external fuse when required.



Do not allow one lamp to directly expose another. This may

lead to overheating and shortened lamp life.





I will give you a hint. A watt is indeed a watt. How that watt

gets out is a whole 'nother interesting story.

Good that you now recogize the difference between heat and
temperature.



A single

glowing wire suspended in a vacuum shucks energy in a different

manner than a super heated gas inside a double bulb. The

glowing wire would tend to shuck it more by radiation and

less by convection. A super heated gas, due to the containment

it is confined to, would tend to shuck far more by convection.

The halogen replacements we're talking about are sealed
inside a glass envelope.



That is why you need the porcelain fixture and why I do not

have them in my house.

Show us a cite that says you need a porecelain fixture to
replace a typical 100 W incandescent with a halogen equivalent.



Paper light on fire at 260C and Halogen

gases can rise to 2,500�C and the bulb up to 500�C. Source:

http://www.led-lamps.net.au/led-ener...cfl-vs-halogen


If you're gonna look at the temp of the gas, then what's
the temp of a tungsten filament if you touch that, or let
it touch your drapes? More fud.






And another hint: incandescent lamp wire glow "yellow" (about

2300 Kelvin), where super heated halogen gases glow "white"

(about 5000 to 6500 Kelvin). The difference in the kelvin

rating is why Halogen lamps look so pretty. And why they

run a hell of a lot hotter.



Again confusing the temp of an internal component that you
can't touch with the heat emitted from the bulb enclosure.



Now put your middle finger away and act like a gentleman.





Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

On 12/6/2013 5:24 PM, Todd wrote:
On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed


Kr-what is pretty close to that point, here, too.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.

On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:13:54 -0800 (PST), westom
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.

w_tom obviously knows about as much about thermo as he does about
lightning protection; a few buzzwords.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:15:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:24 PM, Todd wrote:
On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed


Kr-what is pretty close to that point, here, too.

You really have a high opinion of yourself, Mormon.

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.

so you own stock in a construction company? or a private fire company?

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

ah, just like the fundie who gets ****ed off when you don't agree with
him...wait, that's you

On Friday, December 6, 2013 10:13:54 PM UTC-5, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote: Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should have specs and install instructions that say airflow past some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from the major manufacturers whe ... In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously. LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.


Then it should be easy to provide us with the spec sheet, the install
instructions for the typical residential recessed LED lights, like the
50W equivalent ones the OP is talking about, where it talks about the required airflow and how to achieve it.

I've looked at a lot of them and again, they were rated for direct contact
with insulation and many were ASTM certified airtight between the living
space and attic. For those 50W equivalent, you're talking about a whopping
9 watts of heat.....

Can there be thermal problems with some because they are designed incorrectly?
Sure. But that doesn't equate into an airflow requirement, special install
considerations for most of them. And again, if it's true, provide us with
the spec sheet for a 50W recessed that says you have to provide airflow and
how to achieve it.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:13:51 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

ah, just like the fundie who gets ****ed off when you don't agree with
him...wait, that's you

You *insist* on proving that I'm right about you lefties, Malforemed.
All you lefties can do is lie and repeat lies.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:12:22 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.

so you own stock in a construction company? or a private fire company?

More lies from Malformed. Who wudda guessed! what a frappin' moron

On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:13:54 -0800 (PST), westom
wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.
E suspect many of my LED failures are heat related as they are in
eyeball bots in a high suspended ceiling (the 12 volt ones) and
infaitly closely shrouded sockets on some of the 120 volt ones -
although there most of the ones that have failed have free air access
to the LED heat sinks. Suspecting it is the driver electronics
failing, I have dissasembled a few and the LEDs themselves are, for
the most part, still good. They fail in 3 ways - all LEDs dim or all
Leds flashing on the 12 volts, and all LEDs flashing ,or dim with one
out on the 120 volt. All dim or all flashing have generally been
circuit failures, but several of the earlier 120s had LED element
failures (dim with one element out, or totally dead)
These have 3 or 4 3 watt Cree LEDs.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:35:15 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 07:13 PM, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.


You know, all my CFL hang down. Interesting.
As did 90% of mine. Kinda hard to use a Par38 in any other situation.
You'd think they'd be designed for that use. Where else do you see
Par38 reflector bulbs other than in pot lights, mounted in ceilings???

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:15:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:24 PM, Todd wrote:
On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed


Kr-what is pretty close to that point, here, too.
He's been KFed here for over a year.

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 10:59:10 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/07/2013 07:51 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:35:15 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 07:13 PM, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.


You know, all my CFL hang down. Interesting.

As did 90% of mine. Kinda hard to use a Par38 in any other situation.
You'd think they'd be designed for that use. Where else do you see
Par38 reflector bulbs other than in pot lights, mounted in ceilings???


Hi Clare,

And most of my CFL's cool down enough to touch with my bare hands
in a few minutes. Meaning they are not all that hot. Also
meaning that the electronics must be the cheapest, crappiest
parts they can find with no thought as to the environment
they will be operating in. The only thought has to be the
price charged.

Oh, good grief. Did you not take Thermodynamics at Cracker Jax-U?
AGAIN, you confuse heat and temperature.

Economics, is obviously a foreign concept to you, too. Some
"engineer". LOL!

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.
You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...
Obviously something is bothering you..
So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.



--
Jeff

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:59:03 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.

Damn, would you take your own advice?

You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...

I "go off" at illiterate idiots telling be what I know and what I
said, when they're completely clueless. If the foo ****s, you're
included.

Obviously something is bothering you..

You're one.

So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.

Again, you're lying. It had nothing to do with my "point of view",
other than the evangelists trying to tell me what my "point of view"
is. ...when they haven't even read what I wrote.

The problem is, apparently, all yours. You're beyond my help.

On 12/7/2013 3:05 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:59:03 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.

Damn, would you take your own advice?

You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...

I "go off" at illiterate idiots telling be what I know and what I
said, when they're completely clueless. If the foo ****s, you're
included.

Obviously something is bothering you..

You're one.

So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.

Again, you're lying. It had nothing to do with my "point of view",
other than the evangelists trying to tell me what my "point of view"
is. ...when they haven't even read what I wrote.

The problem is, apparently, all yours. You're beyond my help.

There you go again, thinking that you need to help me.
I think you need to look in the mirror.

And if you want to help me, stop blasting everyone..
There's enough F'd up idiots in the world... stop adding your name to
the list.


--
Jeff

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 15:52:17 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/7/2013 3:05 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:59:03 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.

Damn, would you take your own advice?

You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...

I "go off" at illiterate idiots telling be what I know and what I
said, when they're completely clueless. If the foo ****s, you're
included.

Obviously something is bothering you..

You're one.

So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.

Again, you're lying. It had nothing to do with my "point of view",
other than the evangelists trying to tell me what my "point of view"
is. ...when they haven't even read what I wrote.

The problem is, apparently, all yours. You're beyond my help.

There you go again, thinking that you need to help me.
I think you need to look in the mirror.

There you go again, telling me what is in my mind. You make a *lousy*
netpsychologist. I have no interest in helping you. Only you can do
that for yourself. You "blasted" me, so I simply told you the way it
is.

And if you want to help me, stop blasting everyone..

Again, I have *NO* interest in helping you in this tread. He Linux
groupies took it so far from my original point, on their first post,
that it was clear that conversation was hopeless. Religion does that.

There's enough F'd up idiots in the world... stop adding your name to
the list.

Oh, good grief. If you don't like it, don't read it and *certainly*
don't harp on it. Even the Linux evangelists have decided the subject
is beyond them.

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 10:59:10 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/07/2013 07:51 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:35:15 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 07:13 PM, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.


You know, all my CFL hang down. Interesting.

As did 90% of mine. Kinda hard to use a Par38 in any other situation.
You'd think they'd be designed for that use. Where else do you see
Par38 reflector bulbs other than in pot lights, mounted in ceilings???


Hi Clare,

And most of my CFL's cool down enough to touch with my bare hands
in a few minutes. Meaning they are not all that hot. Also
meaning that the electronics must be the cheapest, crappiest
parts they can find with no thought as to the environment
they will be operating in. The only thought has to be the
price charged.

-T
Like I said - cheap-assed chinease crap. Even with North American ans
European names.

In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:59:03 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.

Damn, would you take your own advice?

You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...

I "go off" at illiterate idiots telling be what I know and what I


oh no!!!! mr krwd made a spelling error...will he flame himself?


said, when they're completely clueless. If the foo ****s, you're
included.

Obviously something is bothering you..

You're one.

So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.

Again, you're lying. It had nothing to do with my "point of view",
other than the evangelists trying to tell me what my "point of view"
is. ...when they haven't even read what I wrote.

The problem is, apparently, all yours. You're beyond my help.

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:51:55 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/07/2013 06:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 10:59:10 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/07/2013 07:51 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:35:15 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 07:13 PM, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.


You know, all my CFL hang down. Interesting.

As did 90% of mine. Kinda hard to use a Par38 in any other situation.
You'd think they'd be designed for that use. Where else do you see
Par38 reflector bulbs other than in pot lights, mounted in ceilings???


Hi Clare,

And most of my CFL's cool down enough to touch with my bare hands
in a few minutes. Meaning they are not all that hot. Also
meaning that the electronics must be the cheapest, crappiest
parts they can find with no thought as to the environment
they will be operating in. The only thought has to be the
price charged.

-T
Like I said - cheap-assed chinease crap. Even with North American ans
European names.


Hi Clare,

I do believe the official term for that is 3C (Cheap
Chinese Crap).

But don't get down too hard on the Chinese. I worked for
a guy that imported from China. He spent a lot of time
over there. He told me that they would show him what
he asked for and a good quality version too. His
company always went with the cheapest, frustrating the hell out
of the Chinese. So, the moral of the story is that
3C goods are what the American buyer specified. I would
go as far as positing that it is because the American
public has changed from wanting quality to wanting it cheap.

The anger over the low quality will be long forgotten
over the joy of the low price. :'(

I personally would rather pay double and have something
last ten times as long, but I am in the minority.

-T
Well. ou are not alone - there are at least 2 of us.

Now I DID buy a Champion Generator instead of a Honda or Yamaha -
Will MABEE use it once every year or so - but I bought a Yamaha Snow
Blower instead of an MTD -some years it'll be used 20 times or more,
others like last year, 2 or 3 times.

Most of my power tools are quality brand name older pieces I bought
used and slightly damaged - fixed them up and noe I have high quality
tools at below 3C prices.

I used to work for a company that imported Chinese computer parts.
First shipment almost always exceded specifications, but by the third
shipment all bets were off - and we paid to have a custom case
designed - paid for the dies and injection moulding dies for the
plastiv fronts - and our case was for sale in "asian sources" computer
magazine for half what we were paying for them before we got our first
shipment..

Only way to source from China is to spread the order around. Get some
parts made from one source, and others from another source - none of
the parts being of any use to anyone without the rest. Then you have
"final assembly in the USA using globally supplied components" and no
piracy.

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:27:56 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:59:03 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.

Damn, would you take your own advice?

You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...

I "go off" at illiterate idiots telling be what I know and what I


oh no!!!! mr krwd made a spelling error...will he flame himself?

Oh, NO!!!! Malformed continues to lie! What is this world coming to?

said, when they're completely clueless. If the foo ****s, you're
included.

Obviously something is bothering you..

You're one.

So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.

Again, you're lying. It had nothing to do with my "point of view",
other than the evangelists trying to tell me what my "point of view"
is. ...when they haven't even read what I wrote.

The problem is, apparently, all yours. You're beyond my help.

Malformed's most intelligent response not snipped.

On 12/8/2013 9:16 PM, Todd wrote:
On 12/08/2013 06:19 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:51:55 -0800, Todd
wrote:

On 12/07/2013 06:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 10:59:10 -0800, Todd
wrote:

On 12/07/2013 07:51 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:35:15 -0800, Todd
wrote:

On 12/06/2013 07:13 PM, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys
should have specs and install instructions that say
airflow past some heatsink is required. Yet there
are plenty of them from the major manufacturers
whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles
on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures
designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same
airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter
when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are
above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a
heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist
in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb
life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the
consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb
orientation were not discussed at the consumer level
decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need
airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have
heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power
levels.


You know, all my CFL hang down. Interesting.

As did 90% of mine. Kinda hard to use a Par38 in any other
situation. You'd think they'd be designed for that use.
Where else do you see Par38 reflector bulbs other than in
pot lights, mounted in ceilings???


Hi Clare,

And most of my CFL's cool down enough to touch with my bare
hands in a few minutes. Meaning they are not all that hot.
Also meaning that the electronics must be the cheapest,
crappiest parts they can find with no thought as to the
environment they will be operating in. The only thought has
to be the price charged.

-T
Like I said - cheap-assed chinease crap. Even with North
American ans European names.


Hi Clare,

I do believe the official term for that is 3C (Cheap Chinese
Crap).

But don't get down too hard on the Chinese. I worked for a guy
that imported from China. He spent a lot of time over there. He
told me that they would show him what he asked for and a good
quality version too. His company always went with the cheapest,
frustrating the hell out of the Chinese. So, the moral of the
story is that 3C goods are what the American buyer specified. I
would go as far as positing that it is because the American
public has changed from wanting quality to wanting it cheap.

The anger over the low quality will be long forgotten over the
joy of the low price. :'(

I personally would rather pay double and have something last ten
times as long, but I am in the minority.

-T
Well. ou are not alone - there are at least 2 of us.

Now I DID buy a Champion Generator instead of a Honda or Yamaha -
Will MABEE use it once every year or so - but I bought a Yamaha
Snow Blower instead of an MTD -some years it'll be used 20 times or
more, others like last year, 2 or 3 times.

Most of my power tools are quality brand name older pieces I
bought used and slightly damaged - fixed them up and noe I have
high quality tools at below 3C prices.

I used to work for a company that imported Chinese computer parts.
First shipment almost always exceded specifications, but by the
third shipment all bets were off - and we paid to have a custom
case designed - paid for the dies and injection moulding dies for
the plastiv fronts - and our case was for sale in "asian sources"
computer magazine for half what we were paying for them before we
got our first shipment..

Only way to source from China is to spread the order around. Get
some parts made from one source, and others from another source -
none of the parts being of any use to anyone without the rest. Then
you have "final assembly in the USA using globally supplied
components" and no piracy.


Hi Clare,

I have heard that story several other places too. It is sad they
have so little honor.

The importer I told you of said that the cost of labor in China and
the cost to ship here is now break even, so we should be seeing
manufacturing start coming back on shore, Hopefully soon!

-T


Perhaps that's why Democrats are doing their best to turn The United
States into a third world country? After the destruction and loss of
life, the country can rebuilt into a prosperous powerhouse until the
citizenry becomes fat and happy, too complacent to care what's going on
then the cycle will start all over again. ^_^

TDD

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 19:16:52 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/08/2013 06:19 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:51:55 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/07/2013 06:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 10:59:10 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/07/2013 07:51 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:35:15 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 07:13 PM, westom wrote:
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:05:01 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should
have specs and install instructions that say airflow past
some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from
the major manufacturers whe ...

In optics engineering magazines were numerous articles on overheating of both CFL and LED bulbs. Fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs do not need same airflow. CFL bulb life expectancy tends to be shorter when the bulb is positioned so that electronics are above the glowing gas. LEDs radiate their heat into a heatsink that is ineffective if airflow does not exist in the fixture. Both problems seriously diminish bulb life expectancy. A problem not discussed at the consumer level. Similar problems with sodium bulb orientation were not discussed at the consumer level decades previously.

LED bulbs (such as those that won the X-prize) need airflow over the heatsinke. LEDs at that wattage have heat problems not found in LEDs at lesser power levels.


You know, all my CFL hang down. Interesting.

As did 90% of mine. Kinda hard to use a Par38 in any other situation.
You'd think they'd be designed for that use. Where else do you see
Par38 reflector bulbs other than in pot lights, mounted in ceilings???


Hi Clare,

And most of my CFL's cool down enough to touch with my bare hands
in a few minutes. Meaning they are not all that hot. Also
meaning that the electronics must be the cheapest, crappiest
parts they can find with no thought as to the environment
they will be operating in. The only thought has to be the
price charged.

-T
Like I said - cheap-assed chinease crap. Even with North American ans
European names.


Hi Clare,

I do believe the official term for that is 3C (Cheap
Chinese Crap).

But don't get down too hard on the Chinese. I worked for
a guy that imported from China. He spent a lot of time
over there. He told me that they would show him what
he asked for and a good quality version too. His
company always went with the cheapest, frustrating the hell out
of the Chinese. So, the moral of the story is that
3C goods are what the American buyer specified. I would
go as far as positing that it is because the American
public has changed from wanting quality to wanting it cheap.

The anger over the low quality will be long forgotten
over the joy of the low price. :'(

I personally would rather pay double and have something
last ten times as long, but I am in the minority.

-T
Well. ou are not alone - there are at least 2 of us.

Now I DID buy a Champion Generator instead of a Honda or Yamaha -
Will MABEE use it once every year or so - but I bought a Yamaha Snow
Blower instead of an MTD -some years it'll be used 20 times or more,
others like last year, 2 or 3 times.

Most of my power tools are quality brand name older pieces I bought
used and slightly damaged - fixed them up and noe I have high quality
tools at below 3C prices.

I used to work for a company that imported Chinese computer parts.
First shipment almost always exceded specifications, but by the third
shipment all bets were off - and we paid to have a custom case
designed - paid for the dies and injection moulding dies for the
plastiv fronts - and our case was for sale in "asian sources" computer
magazine for half what we were paying for them before we got our first
shipment..

Only way to source from China is to spread the order around. Get some
parts made from one source, and others from another source - none of
the parts being of any use to anyone without the rest. Then you have
"final assembly in the USA using globally supplied components" and no
piracy.


Hi Clare,

I have heard that story several other places too. It is
sad they have so little honor.

The importer I told you of said that the cost of labor
in China and the cost to ship here is now break even, so
we should be seeing manufacturing start coming back on shore,
Hopefully soon!

-T
Well, it is now cheaper to build Toyota Corolla and RAV4 vehicles in
Canada tha in Japan, and if the standard of living in China improves
much at all, it will soon be the case for Chinese production as well.
I heard from a tool importer that much of the "chinese" power tools
are actually assembled onboard ship. They travel from port to port
picking up parts in the far east, assembling them en route to North
America. Warranty returns are repaired onboard ship and are returned
on the next round. He said the same was true of many small appliances
- basically "factory ships" Manufacturing, warehousing, and shipping
all in one place.

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:13:45 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:12:59 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:36:40 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/3/2013 8:26 AM, wrote:
If the ones I replaced in the office last 6 months they pay for
themselves in the summer @ $6 each.. (from what I remember) Takes
significantly longer in the winter as the halogens decrease the
heating fuel requirement significantly.

Electric heat, versus furnace. Not sure what
your heat source is, but most places, electric
heat costs more.
Yup - but if you are figuring pay-back on an investment in "low
power" bulbs you need to take it into consideration. You are getting
the heat from halogens - whether you need it or not. In the summer it
costs to remove the heat. In the winter you save a bit on heat.

With LEDs there is no heat load to remove, and no heat gain to reduce
heating requirements. Doesn't matter which costs more, because you
are not installing gas lights.

If I were using a heat pump one watt of electricity would produce more
useable heat than the halogen and I wouldn't be adding to my cooling
load in the summer, so unless you live in an area that has more heating
degree days than cooling days by a significant ration, using halogens is
just not really a good move
Nobody is stupid enough to recommend you use halogen lighting as your
heat source - - - - - although it IS used to heat paint booths, and
some other specialized applications.

Malformed is that stupid.

keep trying herr goebbels, but limbaugh should teach you better or get
your money back

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:30:45 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:13:45 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:12:59 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:36:40 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/3/2013 8:26 AM, wrote:
If the ones I replaced in the office last 6 months they pay for
themselves in the summer @ $6 each.. (from what I remember) Takes
significantly longer in the winter as the halogens decrease the
heating fuel requirement significantly.

Electric heat, versus furnace. Not sure what
your heat source is, but most places, electric
heat costs more.
Yup - but if you are figuring pay-back on an investment in "low
power" bulbs you need to take it into consideration. You are getting
the heat from halogens - whether you need it or not. In the summer it
costs to remove the heat. In the winter you save a bit on heat.

With LEDs there is no heat load to remove, and no heat gain to reduce
heating requirements. Doesn't matter which costs more, because you
are not installing gas lights.

If I were using a heat pump one watt of electricity would produce more
useable heat than the halogen and I wouldn't be adding to my cooling
load in the summer, so unless you live in an area that has more heating
degree days than cooling days by a significant ration, using halogens is
just not really a good move
Nobody is stupid enough to recommend you use halogen lighting as your
heat source - - - - - although it IS used to heat paint booths, and
some other specialized applications.

Malformed is that stupid.

keep trying herr goebbels, but limbaugh should teach you better or get
your money back

Keep lying, Malformed. Even the newbs need to know you're a
pathological liar.

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:13:51 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

ah, just like the fundie who gets ****ed off when you don't agree with
him...wait, that's you

You *insist* on proving that I'm right about you lefties, Malforemed.
All you lefties can do is lie and repeat lies.

now I'm insulted: if you can't spell your limbaughnista flame correctly,
get a new one

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:12:22 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.

so you own stock in a construction company? or a private fire company?

More lies from Malformed. Who wudda guessed! what a frappin' moron

indeed you are. thank you for admitting it

In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:27:56 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 14:59:03 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 12/6/2013 5:34 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

Damn would you take your meds.

Damn, would you take your own advice?

You go off occasionaly then you go back to normal...

I "go off" at illiterate idiots telling be what I know and what I


oh no!!!! mr krwd made a spelling error...will he flame himself?

Oh, NO!!!! Malformed continues to lie! What is this world coming to?


so "telling be" is not a spelling error. you're so wrapped up in calling
others liars that you can't admit your own mistakes...typical fundie



said, when they're completely clueless. If the foo ****s, you're
included.

Obviously something is bothering you..

You're one.

So take care of it, or just shut up. Not everyone has your point of
view, and if they don't you just blast them.

Again, you're lying. It had nothing to do with my "point of view",
other than the evangelists trying to tell me what my "point of view"
is. ...when they haven't even read what I wrote.

The problem is, apparently, all yours. You're beyond my help.

Malformed's most intelligent response not snipped.

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:22:29 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:13:51 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 14:24:14 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 02:13 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:16:04 -0800, Todd wrote:

On 12/06/2013 05:42 AM, wrote:

snipped the mess the Google groupie made of the NG

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire
reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using
because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half
as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far,
in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times
talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make
sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what
you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb
is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc
to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've
had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.


Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea
even if you don't use halogens.

Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're
completely clueless.


And you are an ass hole and are kill filed

Of course. A crappy engineer gets ****ed when he's told what a crappy
engineer he is. The truth often hurts.

ah, just like the fundie who gets ****ed off when you don't agree with
him...wait, that's you

You *insist* on proving that I'm right about you lefties, Malforemed.
All you lefties can do is lie and repeat lies.

now I'm insulted: if you can't spell your limbaughnista flame correctly,
get a new one

Not only do you insist on convincing everyone that lefties are all
pathological liars, but yore actually proud of being a pathological
liar. Well, your messiah is the same.