I lost the thread, but someone still confused. Here is the original
text, we're commenting:

On 11/11/2013 12:00 AM, Bob wrote:
On 11/10/2013 19:38, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg

Be aware that such an adapter violates the separation of the protective
ground and neutral for a 120/240 volt appliance. If your pressure
washer is a "pure" 240 volt device (not needing a neutral, just two hots
and a protective ground), you can use an adapter with a 14-30 plug and
6-30 receptacle.


So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/13/2013 03:38 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I lost the thread, but someone still confused. Here is the original
text, we're commenting:

On 11/11/2013 12:00 AM, Bob wrote:
On 11/10/2013 19:38, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg

Be aware that such an adapter violates the separation of the protective
ground and neutral for a 120/240 volt appliance. If your pressure
washer is a "pure" 240 volt device (not needing a neutral, just two hots
and a protective ground), you can use an adapter with a 14-30 plug and
6-30 receptacle.


So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?





A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase
outlets.



However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a
three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of
the hot terminals is simply not used.


In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three
terminals only. Two for power and one ground.

(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a neutral.)

On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:
On 11/13/2013 03:38 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I lost the thread, but someone still confused. Here is the original
text, we're commenting:

On 11/11/2013 12:00 AM, Bob wrote:
On 11/10/2013 19:38, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg

Be aware that such an adapter violates the separation of the
protective
ground and neutral for a 120/240 volt appliance. If your pressure
washer is a "pure" 240 volt device (not needing a neutral, just two
hots
and a protective ground), you can use an adapter with a 14-30 plug and
6-30 receptacle.


So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?





A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase
outlets.



However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a
three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of
the hot terminals is simply not used.


In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three
terminals only. Two for power and one ground.

(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a neutral.)

In this case, the adapter that G Fretwell made,
was for a 220-1 device, connecting it to a 220-1
socket. The device does not have a neutral, the
socket does. As such, there is no need for people
to storm about separate neutrals, one is not needed.
I know it's futile to ask a Usenet thread to stay
on topic.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:

A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase
outlets.



However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a
three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of
the hot terminals is simply not used.


In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three
terminals only. Two for power and one ground.

(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a neutral.)

From what I know, three phase is typically found in 208 or 440 volt
circuits. Most homes are wired for 220-1 or 240-1, depending who you
talk with. Does anyone know of a home (other than a home machine shop)
that is wired for three phase?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:42:43 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:



A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase

outlets.







However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a

three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of

the hot terminals is simply not used.





In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three

terminals only. Two for power and one ground.



(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a neutral.)



From what I know, three phase is typically found in 208 or 440 volt

circuits. Most homes are wired for 220-1 or 240-1, depending who you

talk with. Does anyone know of a home (other than a home machine shop)

that is wired for three phase?



--

No. And AFAIK, the thread had nothing to do with
3 phase at all. It was just adding about adding a 240V
receptacle to a typical house with 240/120V service.

On 11/14/2013 8:24 AM, wrote:

No. And AFAIK, the thread had nothing to do with
3 phase at all. It was just adding about adding a 240V
receptacle to a typical house with 240/120V service.


The original thread was adding a 220 socket in the
garage, for a pressure washer. G Fretwell sent a
nice pic of his adaptor, which allows him to run
washer off a dryer socket.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 06:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:

A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase
outlets.



However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a
three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of
the hot terminals is simply not used.


In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three
terminals only. Two for power and one ground.

(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a
neutral.)

From what I know, three phase is typically found in 208 or 440 volt
circuits. Most homes are wired for 220-1 or 240-1, depending who you
talk with. Does anyone know of a home (other than a home machine shop)
that is wired for three phase?


I have a friend who lived in a small converted warehouse, it had three
phase wiring for the elevator. Not your typical home by any means !

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:56:58 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/14/2013 8:24 AM, wrote:



No. And AFAIK, the thread had nothing to do with

3 phase at all. It was just adding about adding a 240V

receptacle to a typical house with 240/120V service.





The original thread was adding a 220 socket in the

garage, for a pressure washer. G Fretwell sent a

nice pic of his adaptor, which allows him to run

washer off a dryer socket.



Exactly. And since:

A - 3 phase was not mentioned.

B - Only a miniscule percentage of homes are going
to have 3 phase


Why is someone talking about 3 phase?

On 11/14/2013 07:24 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:42:43 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:



A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase

outlets.







However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a

three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of

the hot terminals is simply not used.






--

No. And AFAIK, the thread had nothing to do with
3 phase at all. It was just adding about adding a 240V
receptacle to a typical house with 240/120V service.





I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase
will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong
/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)

On 11/14/2013 9:28 AM, philo wrote:

I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase
will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong
/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)

Christmas is early this year, my friend.

http://wilderness.hubpages.com/hub/h...g-to-a-3-prong

My treat to you, because you're such a
good person.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:28:35 AM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 11/14/2013 07:24 AM, wrote:

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:42:43 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:







A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase



outlets.















However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a



three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of



the hot terminals is simply not used.













--



No. And AFAIK, the thread had nothing to do with

3 phase at all. It was just adding about adding a 240V

receptacle to a typical house with 240/120V service.











I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase

will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong

/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)

Then you don't get around much, at least in the USA.
Any new electric dryer, outlet, for example, is 4 prong.
Two hots, neutral, ground.
It's required by code. You can hook up a dryer, stove,
etc to an older 3 wire outlet, but all the new ones for
decades now are 4 wire.

On 11/14/2013 08:46 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/14/2013 9:28 AM, philo wrote:

I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase
will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong
/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not
exist)

Christmas is early this year, my friend.

http://wilderness.hubpages.com/hub/h...g-to-a-3-prong


My treat to you, because you're such a
good person.





My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit
too new for me to comprehend!

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:22:52 AM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 11/14/2013 08:46 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 11/14/2013 9:28 AM, philo wrote:



I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase

will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong

/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not

exist)



Christmas is early this year, my friend.



http://wilderness.hubpages.com/hub/h...g-to-a-3-prong





My treat to you, because you're such a

good person.











My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit

too new for me to comprehend!

If your experience is limited to what existed in 1932 era code,
then perhaps you should refrain from giving advice to folks asking
about installing a 240V receptacle today.

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?philo=A0?= writes:
On 11/14/2013 07:24 AM, wrote:


I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase
will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong
/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)

Pretty much every modern Dryer and Oven outlet will be four prong (L1, L2, N, G).

They used to be three (L1, L2, N). Grounding requirements were added sometime
in the 60's or 70's, IIRC.

All Single-phase 240VAC.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:16:58 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?philo=A0?= writes:

On 11/14/2013 07:24 AM, wrote:





I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase

will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong

/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)



Pretty much every modern Dryer and Oven outlet will be four prong (L1, L2, N, G).



They used to be three (L1, L2, N). Grounding requirements were added sometime

in the 60's or 70's, IIRC.



All Single-phase 240VAC.

I think you have it backwards. Grounding was required first. In the 1940's
it was permitted to use the ground as both the eqpt ground and the neutral. That was later changed to require a seperate neutral and ground in the 90's.
Hence, as you say, today 4 wire outlets are common. All new appliances are
made with 4 wire connections and that is the preferred method of connection.
If you have an older existing 3 wire, it's
permissible to follow the appliance manufacturers instructions and connect
it as 3 wire. Most folks understand this, except KRW here who
spent 10 profanity laced posts a few month ago, denying it was so,
while digging his hole ever deeper.

On 11/14/2013 10:22 AM, philo wrote:

Christmas is early this year, my friend.

http://wilderness.hubpages.com/hub/h...g-to-a-3-prong
My treat to you, because you're such a
good person.

My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit
too new for me to comprehend!

Did you know that nutty Spaniard? Columbus
sailed the ocean blue, in nineteen hundred
thirty two, yo ho! yo ho!

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 10:54 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:22:52 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit

too new for me to comprehend!

If your experience is limited to what existed in 1932 era code,
then perhaps you should refrain from giving advice to folks asking
about installing a 240V receptacle today.


Why that? Home Groaners Shrub posters reply to
1932 questions. Like the guy who wanted to know
if he could run his
vibro massage weight loss


http://atomictoasters.com/2012/04/wh...loss-machines/

off his knob and tube wiring.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 11:35 AM, wrote:
They used to be three (L1, L2, N). Grounding requirements were added sometime
in the 60's or 70's, IIRC.
All Single-phase 240VAC.

I think you have it backwards. Grounding was required first. In the 1940's
it was permitted to use the ground as both the eqpt ground and the neutral. That was later changed to require a seperate neutral and ground in the 90's.
Hence, as you say, today 4 wire outlets are common. All new appliances are
made with 4 wire connections and that is the preferred method of connection.
If you have an older existing 3 wire, it's
permissible to follow the appliance manufacturers instructions and connect
it as 3 wire. Most folks understand this, except KRW here who
spent 10 profanity laced posts a few month ago, denying it was so,
while digging his hole ever deeper.

I remember three prong range and dryer, and
four prong came out later. What came first,
the neutral or the chicken or the ground or
the egg?

My comment is grounded in fact, but I remain
neutral, as I egg you on, chicken that I am.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 09:54 AM, wrote:



My treat to you, because you're such a

good person.











My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit

too new for me to comprehend!

If your experience is limited to what existed in 1932 era code,
then perhaps you should refrain from giving advice to folks asking
about installing a 240V receptacle today.




Nope, I was a Senior Service Engineer with 38 years of
experience...recently retired. I worked in an industrial environment and
am familiar with AC power distribution.


However , regulations vary from state to state in Wisconsin it's not
necessarily done the way it's done elsewhere, that's why the local
electrical code needs to be consulted.

On 11/14/2013 10:45 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/14/2013 10:22 AM, philo wrote:

Christmas is early this year, my friend.

http://wilderness.hubpages.com/hub/h...g-to-a-3-prong

My treat to you, because you're such a
good person.

My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit
too new for me to comprehend!

Did you know that nutty Spaniard? Columbus
sailed the ocean blue, in nineteen hundred
thirty two, yo ho! yo ho!



here is one for you





On September 25, 1513 Balboa discovered the Pacific Ocean.

The Australians,
who had been facing inland for millenia,
turned around in surprise,
and fished.

On that day,
the Japanese,
who had been facing inland for millenia,
turned around and said:
I'll be damned, a lake!

On that day,
the Native Americans who had been camped on its shores,
Turned around and said:
Funny we never looked in that direction before,
things have been a bit hectic lately.

History lessons were made.
Reminds me of the time in 1492 when,
the Bahamians discovered,
Columbus in their midst,
Turned around and told each other:
We're ****ed.

Though we have a gas range, there used to be an electric one and it is a
4 wire outlet.

The two hots and neutral are all # 8 plus a safety ground that looks
like #14, I should have looked first before I said I never saw such a setup.

" writes:
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:16:58 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?philo=A0?= writes:

On 11/14/2013 07:24 AM, wrote:





I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase

will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong

/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)



Pretty much every modern Dryer and Oven outlet will be four prong (L1, L2, N, G).



They used to be three (L1, L2, N). Grounding requirements were added sometime

in the 60's or 70's, IIRC.



All Single-phase 240VAC.

I think you have it backwards. Grounding was required first. In the 1940's

Yes.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:07:56 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 11/14/2013 09:54 AM, wrote:







My treat to you, because you're such a



good person.























My house was originally wired in 1932, that photo you showed me is a bit



too new for me to comprehend!



If your experience is limited to what existed in 1932 era code,

then perhaps you should refrain from giving advice to folks asking

about installing a 240V receptacle today.









Nope, I was a Senior Service Engineer with 38 years of

experience...recently retired. I worked in an industrial environment and

am familiar with AC power distribution.





However , regulations vary from state to state in Wisconsin it's not

necessarily done the way it's done elsewhere, that's why the local

electrical code needs to be consulted.

Most states and municipalities follow the NEC,
with some exceptions. I doubt requiring a 4 wire connection
for new construction 240V dryer, stoves, etc is one of them.
And there are millions of 4 wire connections out there, the fact
that you don't know that and instead are diverting off into
3 phase, means that you shouldn't be giving advice.

Go to any appliance manufacturer and read the install manuals and
it will tell you that the 240V dryer, stove etc. should be hooked up to 4 wires, if available. It's not unusual, it's the preferred,
code compliant way today. If you have a cite for Wisconsin
code that says otherwise, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

On 11/14/2013 12:19 PM, philo wrote:
Though we have a gas range, there used to be an electric one and it is a
4 wire outlet.

The two hots and neutral are all # 8 plus a safety ground that looks
like #14, I should have looked first before I said I never saw such a
setup.

Well, maybe you didn't see it? I do that all the time.
Stuff in my house, and I find it later.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 12:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/14/2013 12:19 PM, philo wrote:
Though we have a gas range, there used to be an electric one and it is a
4 wire outlet.

The two hots and neutral are all # 8 plus a safety ground that looks
like #14, I should have looked first before I said I never saw such a
setup.

Well, maybe you didn't see it? I do that all the time.
Stuff in my house, and I find it later.




Well, all I can say is that as soon as I find I am in error, I admit it.

On 11/14/2013 1:37 PM, philo wrote:
On 11/14/2013 12:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Well, maybe you didn't see it? I do that all the time.
Stuff in my house, and I find it later.

Well, all I can say is that as soon as I find I am in error, I admit it.

That's rare, now days. When I'm in error, uh,
ain't tellin.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 12:52 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/14/2013 1:37 PM, philo wrote:
On 11/14/2013 12:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Well, maybe you didn't see it? I do that all the time.
Stuff in my house, and I find it later.

Well, all I can say is that as soon as I find I am in error, I admit it.

That's rare, now days. When I'm in error, uh,
ain't tellin.




When I was still working I found out that if I was wrong and admitted it
at once, I never got in trouble. Many times people were too surprised to
say much.

On 11/14/2013 2:13 PM, philo wrote:


When I was still working I found out that if I was wrong and admitted it
at once, I never got in trouble. Many times people were too surprised to
say much.

I've had a few similar experiences.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/14/2013 12:01 PM, wrote:




However , regulations vary from state to state in Wisconsin it's not

necessarily done the way it's done elsewhere, that's why the local

electrical code needs to be consulted.

Most states and municipalities follow the NEC,
with some exceptions. I doubt requiring a 4 wire connection
for new construction 240V dryer, stoves, etc is one of them.
And there are millions of 4 wire connections out there, the fact
that you don't know that and instead are diverting off into
3 phase, means that you shouldn't be giving advice.

Go to any appliance manufacturer and read the install manuals and
it will tell you that the 240V dryer, stove etc. should be hooked up to 4 wires, if available. It's not unusual, it's the preferred,
code compliant way today. If you have a cite for Wisconsin
code that says otherwise, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.





Yep, you are right...an item such as an oven or drier would require a
neutral
as there are 115v controls, lights etc.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:28:13 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Exactly. And since:

A - 3 phase was not mentioned.
B - Only a miniscule percentage of homes are going
to have 3 phase

Why is someone talking about 3 phase?

Lack of reading comprehension.

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:19:08 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
Though we have a gas range, there used to be an electric one and it is a

4 wire outlet.



The two hots and neutral are all # 8 plus a safety ground that looks

like #14, I should have looked first before I said I never saw such a setup.

I give you credit for correcting the error of your ways.
Many here won't admit they are ever wrong.

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 22:39:48 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 11/13/2013 03:38 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I lost the thread, but someone still confused. Here is the original
text, we're commenting:

On 11/11/2013 12:00 AM, Bob wrote:
On 11/10/2013 19:38, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg

Be aware that such an adapter violates the separation of the protective
ground and neutral for a 120/240 volt appliance. If your pressure
washer is a "pure" 240 volt device (not needing a neutral, just two hots
and a protective ground), you can use an adapter with a 14-30 plug and
6-30 receptacle.


So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?





A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase
outlets.


Nothing said about 3 phase


However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a
three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of
the hot terminals is simply not used.


In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three
terminals only. Two for power and one ground.

Nope. Code today REQUIRES 4 wire - L1, L2, Neutral, and safety
ground.

(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a neutral.)

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:28:35 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 11/14/2013 07:24 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:42:43 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:



A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase

outlets.







However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a

three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of

the hot terminals is simply not used.






--

No. And AFAIK, the thread had nothing to do with
3 phase at all. It was just adding about adding a 240V
receptacle to a typical house with 240/120V service.





I know the thread had nothing to do with three phase, but three phase
will always have a four prong outlet. I have never seen a four prong
/single phase/ outlet in my life. (Not saying such a thing could not exist)
Standard equipment for new drier and electric range outlets.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:26:40 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 11/14/2013 06:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/13/2013 11:39 PM, philo wrote:

A lot of confusion here as houses (generally) do not have three phase
outlets.



However there is no problem having a single phase device connected to a
three phase outlet providing the current rating is not exceeded. One of
the hot terminals is simply not used.


In one's house though, both a 115 and a 230 volt outlet would have three
terminals only. Two for power and one ground.

(It's irrelevant that with 115 v one of the power wires is also a
neutral.)

From what I know, three phase is typically found in 208 or 440 volt
circuits. Most homes are wired for 220-1 or 240-1, depending who you
talk with. Does anyone know of a home (other than a home machine shop)
that is wired for three phase?


I have a friend who lived in a small converted warehouse, it had three
phase wiring for the elevator. Not your typical home by any means !
Large majority of multi unit residential buildings are 120/208 3
phase - each unit only sees the single phase service.

On 11/14/2013 03:59 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:19:08 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Though we have a gas range, there used to be an electric one and it is a

4 wire outlet.



The two hots and neutral are all # 8 plus a safety ground that looks

like #14, I should have looked first before I said I never saw such a setup.

I give you credit for correcting the error of your ways.
Many here won't admit they are ever wrong.


I make plenty of mistakes, might as well fess up asap.