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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

I am considering purchasing a 3000 watt emergency generator. At this
size, some generators are 110/220 and others are only 110 volt.

My load will be a 5000 BTU A/C and a refrigerator. In addition, I
would like to put 110 Volts across the water heater for 1/4 power for a
few hours when the load could take it.

Assume that the main breaker is off.

I can backfeed 2 receptacles on the opposite side of the box with 2
extension cords and feed any 120 loads within the breaker limits.

But what about the water heater? How would you suggest that I connect
120 across it?

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Toller
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel


wrote in message
oups.com...
I am considering purchasing a 3000 watt emergency generator. At this
size, some generators are 110/220 and others are only 110 volt.

My load will be a 5000 BTU A/C and a refrigerator. In addition, I
would like to put 110 Volts across the water heater for 1/4 power for a
few hours when the load could take it.

Assume that the main breaker is off.

I can backfeed 2 receptacles on the opposite side of the box with 2
extension cords and feed any 120 loads within the breaker limits.

If you do this, and I sincerely hope you will not, make darn sure all the
240v breakers are off. In fact, make sure all the breakers are off.

But what about the water heater? How would you suggest that I connect
120 across it?

If I were going to do it, and I wouldn't do it, I would cut the cable to the
water heater, put a 120v plug and outlet on it. Then it is a simple matter
to run the heater off an extension cord. Or, if you are really crazy, plug
it into a backfed 120v outlet and run it that way. Make sure you use a 30a
plug and outlet; although it won't draw that much on 120v, it will on 240v.
I suppose it would be better to use a 240v plug and outlet, and make a
converter with a 240v outlet and a 120v plug, though it is so foolish it
really doesn't matter.
It sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Besides, I doubt the heater
will get hot enough to work. I have a 240v baseboard heater wired to 120v.
It is fine for late spring and early fall when I use it, but it barely warms
up.

Please don't run your A/C off the generator at night. If my neighbor did
that... well, I hope he doesn't. It is one thing to run a furnace or
refrigerator, but an A/C?!


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Chris Lewis
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

According to Toller :

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am considering purchasing a 3000 watt emergency generator. At this
size, some generators are 110/220 and others are only 110 volt.


I can backfeed 2 receptacles on the opposite side of the box with 2
extension cords and feed any 120 loads within the breaker limits.

If you do this, and I sincerely hope you will not, make darn sure all the
240v breakers are off. In fact, make sure all the breakers are off.


There is no point in feeding the panel with a piddly little 3Kw generator.
Use extension cords to the devices. He's going to have to juggle the loads
anyway.

But what about the water heater? How would you suggest that I connect
120 across it?


If I were going to do it, and I wouldn't do it, I would cut the cable to the
water heater, put a 120v plug and outlet on it. Then it is a simple matter
to run the heater off an extension cord. Or, if you are really crazy, plug
it into a backfed 120v outlet and run it that way. Make sure you use a 30a
plug and outlet; although it won't draw that much on 120v, it will on 240v.
I suppose it would be better to use a 240v plug and outlet, and make a
converter with a 240v outlet and a 120v plug, though it is so foolish it
really doesn't matter.


I'd use a 240V plug, and a short adapter cord for use with the generator.
[120V plug to 240V socket.] The 240V plug has to be wired adequately
(probably #10) for full line current, the adapter and extension cord
need only be beefy enough for half the HWT's amp rating (14 or 12ga if
long).

This is a code violation tho without very careful attention to wire
types (even then, but never mind).

But don't do this - see below for a simpler and less expensive
alternative.

It sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Besides, I doubt the heater
will get hot enough to work. I have a 240v baseboard heater wired to 120v.
It is fine for late spring and early fall when I use it, but it barely warms
up.


120V to a 240V water heater works just fine. My inlaws had theirs wired
that way by some idiot electrician. The drawback is that recovery time is
_abysmally_ slow (4 times slower). You can imagine what a house with
this problem and four women in it is like when it comes to showers.

Fixing that water heater recovery time went a long way towards them
allowing me to marry their daughter ;-)

Don't do it, because it's tremendously wasteful, and when you're on a generator,
it's a bad time to waste power.

It's more effective/useful to buy an 120V electric kettle (it'll
cost less than the adapter cord alone and doesn't require screwing around
with the HWT circuit or the inevitable code violations). Heats a lot
faster too. Or use a propane stove.

[240V to a 120V water heater also works okay, for a couple of weeks, then
the elements eventually fry.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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m Ransley
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

What kind of gen, a cheap unit will put out likely 100v at that load
and not run what you want. 3000 is not enough, Buying a gen is not like
buying a lawn mower

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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Joseph Meehan wrote:

wrote:


I am considering purchasing a 3000 watt emergency generator. At this
size, some generators are 110/220 and others are only 110 volt.

My load will be a 5000 BTU A/C and a refrigerator. In addition, I
would like to put 110 Volts across the water heater for 1/4 power for
a few hours when the load could take it.

Assume that the main breaker is off.


You might do more than assume :-)

Your local power company will be very upsets with any home brew attempt
to do this.


What you do with the wires inside your house is none of their business, IMO.

You little generator is not going to do all you want it to do.


Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

But what about the water heater?


Why not heat water on a regular basis in wintertime with Honda's 6500 W
water-cooled generator in an exhaust-depressurized plastic film room in
the basement, with a CO detector? Item# 1676-1601 at NorthernTool.com.
The description says " :-) Running 4.7 hours on 4.2 gallons
of gas, it could make 4.7x6.5 = 31 kWh of electricity and 4.2x114K/3412-31
= 110 kWh of "waste heat." About 4'x2'x2', 309 pounds, with wheels.

Nick

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Joseph Meehan
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

wrote:


I am considering purchasing a 3000 watt emergency generator. At
this size, some generators are 110/220 and others are only 110 volt.

My load will be a 5000 BTU A/C and a refrigerator. In addition, I
would like to put 110 Volts across the water heater for 1/4 power
for a few hours when the load could take it.

Assume that the main breaker is off.


You might do more than assume :-)

Your local power company will be very upsets with any home brew
attempt to do this.


What you do with the wires inside your house is none of their
business, IMO.


Play the troll if you like, but please don't make such irresponsible
remarks. It could cost a life. As long as your wires are connected to
their system they certainly do have a right to control what you do with
those wires. If you don't believe me as you attorney.



You little generator is not going to do all you want it to do.


Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

But what about the water heater?


Why not heat water on a regular basis in wintertime with Honda's 6500
W water-cooled generator in an exhaust-depressurized plastic film
room in
the basement, with a CO detector? Item# 1676-1601 at NorthernTool.com.
The description says " :-) Running 4.7 hours on 4.2
gallons of gas, it could make 4.7x6.5 = 31 kWh of electricity and
4.2x114K/3412-31 = 110 kWh of "waste heat." About 4'x2'x2', 309
pounds, with wheels.

Nick


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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Joseph Meehan
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

mm wrote:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:16:12 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


Please don't run your A/C off the generator at night. If my neighbor
did that... well, I hope he doesn't. It is one thing to run a
furnace or refrigerator, but an A/C?!


Even a refrigerator. If it's cold inside at bedtime, it will still be
cold in the morning, and neighbors can have a good night's sleep.


If course you could offer to share your power with your neighbror(s) and
invite them to store their perishables in your frig and sleep over in your
air-conditioned home.



--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Nick,

The 'assume' that the3 breaker is off, was for you guys in answering my
question. For me, I AM DARN SURE!

On this thread I have learned the following:


"120V to a 240V water heater works just fine. My inlaws had theirs
wired
that way by some idiot electrician. The drawback is that recovery time
is
_abysmally_ slow (4 times slower). You can imagine what a house with
this problem and four women in it is like when it comes to showers. "


In addition, if I timeshare the refridge with the water heater, and
keep the 5,000 BTU A/C running, the 3,000 watt generator should
suffice.

Longer run times, less noise, lighter, and OK for an EMERGENCY!


If you had seen the miles l----o------n------ g (no) gas lines after
Wilma, you would understand my concern about using as little gas as
possible.

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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Joseph Meehan wrote:

What you do with the wires inside your house is none of their business.


... please don't make such irresponsible remarks.


No thanks. I'll repeat my responsible remark:

What you do with the wires inside your house is none of their business.

As long as your wires are connected to their system they certainly do
have a right to control what you do with those wires.


With an open breaker, they are not connected.

Nick



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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Guys,

Remember. It is an EMERGENCY!!!

The house it NOT on the grid.

The Main Breaker is set to OFF!!!!

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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Joseph Meehan wrote:

... You don't have the right to decide what to do with your own wiring.


Nonsense. Of course you do. Then again, actions have consequences.

Remember the Carterfone decision? :-)

Nick

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m Ransley
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

So nick you recommend a 5000$ gen when he is probably using a 500 $
gen, illogical.



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ameijers
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel


wrote in message
oups.com...
Guys,

Remember. It is an EMERGENCY!!!

The house it NOT on the grid.

The Main Breaker is set to OFF!!!!

Didn't we just do this same topic to death a few weeks ago?

Either use extension cords directly to the devices, or put in a proper
transfer switch. Unless your mains have a place to do a padlock lockout, and
you keep the key in your pocket, there is always the chance some fool will
flip it with the generator on, and backfeed the grid. Even with the lockout,
under certain circumstances of a failure in your wiring, the neutral bus
could go hot all the way back to the (usually shared) can on the pole. Not
likely, but possible, so it is stupid to take the chance when safer methods
are available.

EMERGENCY!!! means an unforseen situation. You are obviously planning in
advance, which is good, but it also means 'lack of the proper hardware' is
not a good excuse. If you have the cash for the generator, you can also
afford the hardware to connect it properly. These codes and standards of
practices were developed for a reason- to protect utility workers, fire and
rescue crews, and even you and your family. No, they can't prevent you from
wiring your place like you want, but if/when they find out, they can also
disconnect you from outside power till they are satisified you are playing
by the rules.

aem sends...


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ameijers
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
(snip)
Don't do it, because it's tremendously wasteful, and when you're on a

generator,
it's a bad time to waste power.

It's more effective/useful to buy an 120V electric kettle (it'll
cost less than the adapter cord alone and doesn't require screwing around
with the HWT circuit or the inevitable code violations). Heats a lot
faster too. Or use a propane stove.

[240V to a 120V water heater also works okay, for a couple of weeks, then
the elements eventually fry.]

He wants to be able to take a hot shower, even if it is only a very short
one. Hard to do that with a teakettle. I can stand sponge baths for a day or
three at most, personally- if I can't get a shower, or a
warm-enough-to-jump-in lake/river by then, I get Real Cranky. That much, I
do understand. Rather than screw around with hot-wiring an electric heater,
if gas service was available, I'd put in a gas water heater.

aem sends...

aem sends...

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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Water Heater has 2 4,000 watt elements, upper and lower.

AFAIK dual elements are energized one at a time.

If powering with 120 VAC, the power will be about 1,000 Watta.

With 1KW into 54 Gallons of water, there is not a high probability of
boiling the tank.

Why wouldn't a pigtail 110 VAC receptacle wired across the lower
element/thermostat be sufficient as a connect point if the main breaker
and the WH breaker are both in the OFF position?

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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

Connecting a separate 110v source without physically disconnecting
the 220 circuit is an accident just waiting to happen. You may not be
the person who flips the circuit breakers back on.

As for boiling water, if 1KW is consumed long enough it can
increase tank temp to boiling point, but it will become way too
dangerous long before that point. As hot water over 125 degrees F
represents a scalding hazard.

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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

As hot water over 125 degrees F
represents a scalding hazard.

That is why thermostats were invented.



54 Gal of water weighs 448 pounds.

heating 448 pounds water at 70 to 120F requires 50 x 448 or 22,410
BTU's.


22,410 / 3412 BTU/KWH = 6.5 hours.


The generator gas tank will be empty before a 54 gallon WH would begin
to boil, if there was no thermostat involved.



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wrote:
As hot water over 125 degrees F
represents a scalding hazard.

That is why thermostats were invented.


You're the one making a statement about
not wiring in a thermostat.


54 Gal of water weighs 448 pounds.

heating 448 pounds water at 70 to 120F requires 50 x 448 or 22,410
BTU's.


ASSumption... that you're starting out HW filled with 70 degree water.

Which is an improbable event to reoccur more than once..
Most people won't tolerate 70 degree shower for very long.
Hot water in the heater isn't going to magically cool down to
ambient overnight.


22,410 / 3412 BTU/KWH = 6.5 hours.


For how many days???

2 days... 4 days.... a week... two weeks... ???

After Wilma's eye wall hit us hard (twice)..
Our area was without grid power for 13.5 days !
Next block over was without grid power for 17 days !!!

Each morning I ran genny for 4 to 5 hours,
make Breakfast & lunch.. power frig's, charge bat's..

And another 4 to 6 hours in evening, power frig's, make dinner,
hot water(for morning showers), charge bat's, watch some TV.

For the most part, it took 110v mod running w/genny just a couple of
hours to bring a 30 gal WH back to it's thermostat set point and
disconnect.

The generator gas tank will be empty before a 54 gallon WH would begin
to boil, if there was no thermostat involved.


ASSumption.. that you have a small fuel tank and you don't refill it.
ASSumption.. that you are always aware of the temperture of water in
HW heater.

Bypassing critical safety features is a good way to hurt someone..

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Oh!

I see the problem, you misunderstood.

"Why wouldn't a pigtail 110 VAC receptacle wired across the lower
element/thermostat be sufficient as a connect point if the main breaker

and the WH breaker are both in the OFF position? "


The thermostat WOULD be in control.


Sorry.

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Chris Lewis
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

According to :
Joseph Meehan wrote:


... You don't have the right to decide what to do with your own wiring.


Nonsense. Of course you do. Then again, actions have consequences.


Remember the Carterfone decision? :-)


That's telephones, not AC power wiring.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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m Ransley
 
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Default Connecting a 110 Volt 300 watt generator to a 220 Volt panel

A 300 watt gen? whats it powered by a weed eater motor. Even 3000w would
be overtaxed

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