I believe I have a 200A electric service at my house.

If I want to add a 240V outlet in the garage (to power a high power electric
pressure washer, or other tools), do I have to upgrade the panel or the
service contract with the electric company? The machine draws 20 to 30A.

I'd hire an electrician to add the outlet but I want to know the code
related issues beforehand.

It may be cheaper to buy a gas pressure washer but I don't like maintening
gas engines. And regular 120V pressure washers are too weak.

"bob" wrote in message
...
I believe I have a 200A electric service at my house.

If I want to add a 240V outlet in the garage (to power a high power
electric pressure washer, or other tools), do I have to upgrade the panel
or the service contract with the electric company? The machine draws 20 to
30A.

I'd hire an electrician to add the outlet but I want to know the code
related issues beforehand.

It may be cheaper to buy a gas pressure washer but I don't like maintening
gas engines. And regular 120V pressure washers are too weak.

Go to your breaker panel and look at the breakers. You should see most of
them a single slot wide. There will be around 2 to 4 that are 2 slots wide
with a single handle. If you have 2 slots that just have the metel plate
over them next to each other. That is either 2 on the left side or 2 on the
right side. Then it will not be any problem. The electrician can just pop
out the blank covers and add a breaker and run the wires. You should not
have to do any upgrading of the service from the power company. If you add
up all the breakers it will total way more than the 200 amp service you
have, but unless something unusal hapens you will never have everything on
at once.

To get an estimate of the cost (not counting the electrician) see how much
wire it will take to get from the breaker to where you want the outlet.
Remember you have to go up and down the walls and such. Then go to a store
or online and look for that ammount of wire that has 2 or 3 conductors and a
ground. You need to look at the price of atleast # 10 wire. Also look at a
breaker, a receptical and a box to put it in.

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:30:48 PM UTC-6, bob wrote:

It may be cheaper to buy a gas pressure washer but I don't
like maintaining gas engines. And regular 120V pressure
washers are too weak.


Uh, portability?

On Sat, 9 Nov 2013 20:59:14 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"bob" wrote in message
...
I believe I have a 200A electric service at my house.

If I want to add a 240V outlet in the garage (to power a high power
electric pressure washer, or other tools), do I have to upgrade the panel
or the service contract with the electric company? The machine draws 20 to
30A.

I'd hire an electrician to add the outlet but I want to know the code
related issues beforehand.

It may be cheaper to buy a gas pressure washer but I don't like maintening
gas engines. And regular 120V pressure washers are too weak.

Go to your breaker panel and look at the breakers. You should see most of
them a single slot wide. There will be around 2 to 4 that are 2 slots wide
with a single handle. If you have 2 slots that just have the metel plate
over them next to each other. That is either 2 on the left side or 2 on the
right side. Then it will not be any problem. The electrician can just pop
out the blank covers and add a breaker and run the wires. You should not
have to do any upgrading of the service from the power company. If you add
up all the breakers it will total way more than the 200 amp service you
have, but unless something unusal hapens you will never have everything on
at once.

To get an estimate of the cost (not counting the electrician) see how much
wire it will take to get from the breaker to where you want the outlet.
Remember you have to go up and down the walls and such. Then go to a store
or online and look for that ammount of wire that has 2 or 3 conductors and a
ground. You need to look at the price of atleast # 10 wire. Also look at a
breaker, a receptical and a box to put it in.

3 wire ONLY - you never know what he will want to plug in that MAY
have a 120 volt component - so it needs 2 lines, plus neutral, plus
the bare or green ground. That is red, black, white, plus bare or
green. Then he needs to decide if 30 amps is all he will ever need, or
if he needs a 50 amp connection for a welder . I like to put in a 50
amp 240 line, and then make a fused or breaker protected "downshift"
adapter - 50 amp plug, breaker/fuse box, and 30 amp outlet.

The permanent connection is to code, and the adapter is safe - and not
being a permanent connection, is not subject to the inspection
process. Just make sure everything is done to the highest standards of
workmanship.

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 22:06:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 9 Nov 2013 17:30:48 -0800, "bob" wrote:

I believe I have a 200A electric service at my house.

If I want to add a 240V outlet in the garage (to power a high power electric
pressure washer, or other tools), do I have to upgrade the panel or the
service contract with the electric company? The machine draws 20 to 30A.

I'd hire an electrician to add the outlet but I want to know the code
related issues beforehand.

It may be cheaper to buy a gas pressure washer but I don't like maintening
gas engines. And regular 120V pressure washers are too weak.

The real question is how hard it will be to get a wire from the garage
to the panel.
Is it an attached garage? That makes it a lot simpler, code wise.

I have a 240v/30a power washer and you are right. It is the real deal.
In my garage it's dead simple - the panel is in the garage - - - - .
Getting wire ELSEWHERE in the house is fun, as it needs to go up and
across the garage ceiling (no opening to the crawlspace) and then in
through the house/garage wall - which is ALL finished..... Inside and
out. For the central vac I ran romex on the surface along the
ceiling/wall junction, down the inside corner of the garage wall, and
in through the sill into the basement where I had to remove accoustic
ceiling tile to access the wire and direct it across toi the furnace
room where the CV was installed.

I expect people are going to bark at me for giving this advice because we're mixing water and 220 VAC power, but I thought I'd run it by the OP to see what he thinks. As long as he doesn't use that pressure washer to spray the power cord, and as long as he's careful that the power cord to the pressure washer doesn't get wet, I think it's doable.

Your electric clothes dryer runs off of 240 VAC 30 Amp power. Depending on whether your pressure washer has any 120 VAC circuits in it, the plug maybe configured a bit differently. If there's no 120 VAC circuits in the pressure washer, it won't have a neutral prong for the white wire. But, if there is at least one 120 VAC circuit in the pressure washer (for an On/Off light, say) then the kind of plug on the end of this pressure washer's cord and the receptacle it plugs into should be the same as those on your electric clothes dryer (presuming you have a newer electric clothes dryer that uses a ground wire).

Plug and Receptacle Configurations

Take a look at the 240 VAC cord from your electric dryer and see if it's plug configuration looks like this:
http://frentzandsons.com/Hardware%20...ges/14-30p.jpg

If the 240 VAC cord from your pressure washer is the same, then you can buy all the cable you need in advance, but just make a 240 VAC 30 amp extension cord you can use to provide power to your pressure washer from your electric clothes dryer's 240 VAC 30 amp receptacle.

Then, when you want to use your pressure washer, just unplug your dryer, plug in your extension cord, plug in your pressure washer to the other end of the extension cord, and go nutz cleaning stuff. Even if you add the 220 VAC 30 amp receptacle in your garage, you may find it advantageous to build the 220 VAC 30 amp extension cord as described above as it would allow you to use your pressure washer at other locations, such as the houses of friends and relatives. Provided they have a newer electric clothes dryer, and it's within your extension cord range, and there's an outdoor hydrant available, you're good to go.

With air compressors, it's recommended that you keep the electrical cord short, and use a longer air line to provide the air pressure at the work location. That's because air compressors draw an awful lot of current when they start. I'm thinking that the motor in your pressure washer does the same, and so with a pressure washer, you don't want a long extension cord any more than you want a long high pressure water hose.

And, of course, you want to keep that extension cord dry.

On 11/9/2013 10:43 PM, wrote:

I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.
With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone
around here has a dryer.

The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put
in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near
the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.
What's your use of pressure washer, right at the
house? Washing your vinyl siding?

G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire
and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:59:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/9/2013 10:43 PM, wrote:

I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.
With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone
around here has a dryer.

The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put
in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near
the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.
What's your use of pressure washer, right at the
house? Washing your vinyl siding?

G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire
and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.
So make an adaprer if you need it to be "portable"

Anything recent will be 4 wire. 4 wire also allows you to make a
splitter adapter to run multiple 120 volt circuits - put a fused
disconnect or breaker subpanel and a couple of outlet boxes on a
mini-panel-board to plug into your 4 wire 240 extension circuit.

bob wrote:
I believe I have a 200A electric service at my house.

If I want to add a 240V outlet in the garage (to power a high power
electric pressure washer, or other tools), do I have to upgrade the
panel or the service contract with the electric company? The machine
draws 20 to 30A.

I'd hire an electrician to add the outlet but I want to know the code
related issues beforehand.

It may be cheaper to buy a gas pressure washer but I don't like
maintening gas engines. And regular 120V pressure washers are too weak.
Hi,
If you are going to hire an electrician he will answer all your
questions. I can't see your panel or house from here, LOL!

On 11/10/13 05:59 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.
With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone
around here has a dryer.

The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put
in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near
the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.
What's your use of pressure washer, right at the
house? Washing your vinyl siding?

G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire
and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.

Our old house had a hard-wired dryer, so when we replaced the dryer we
had a 4-wire outlet installed. the house to which we moved -- where we
live now -- has a 3-wire socket , so I replace the 4-wire cord on the
dryer by a 3-wire cord and made whatever change was required at the
dryer end; forget the details now.

Is it OK (Code compliant) simply to run a separate ground conductor
alongside the existing 3-conductor Romex and replace the 3-wire outlet
by a 4-wire outlet and reinstall the 4-wire cord on the dryer and change
the connections on the dryer end back again? Or would I have to replace
the 3-conductor Romex by 4-conductor?

Perce

On 11/10/2013 19:38, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg

Be aware that such an adapter violates the separation of the protective
ground and neutral for a 120/240 volt appliance. If your pressure
washer is a "pure" 240 volt device (not needing a neutral, just two hots
and a protective ground), you can use an adapter with a 14-30 plug and
6-30 receptacle.

On 11/11/2013 12:00 AM, Bob wrote:
On 11/10/2013 19:38, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg

Be aware that such an adapter violates the separation of the protective
ground and neutral for a 120/240 volt appliance. If your pressure
washer is a "pure" 240 volt device (not needing a neutral, just two hots
and a protective ground), you can use an adapter with a 14-30 plug and
6-30 receptacle.


So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/10/2013 10:38 PM, wrote:

You just need one of these. A 4 wire dryer cord with a 3 wire
receptacle on it.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dryer%20adapter.jpg


One time, I was repairing wall AC for an apartment
complex. I made a dryer socket (three wire) to AC
socket (three wire) pigtail. Of course, I did observe
separation of power conductors. All the white neutral
wires in the situation were properly handled, safely.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/11/2013 05:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?


It would if you connected BOTH ground and neutral to the third prong.
You don't have to do that.

On 11/11/2013 1:46 PM, sam E wrote:
On 11/11/2013 05:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?


It would if you connected BOTH ground and neutral to the third prong.
You don't have to do that.

Well, starting with a three wire AC (hot, hot, ground)
and plugging into a three wire socket (hot, hot,
ground). What neutral wire are you talking about?
I've looked all over, and can't find one here.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

replying to nestork , Tiffany wrote:
nestork.cc4be39 wrote:

'Tiffany[_2_ Wrote:
Tiffany:
Typically on 220 volt appliances, there will be three places to connect
the three wires going to the appliance, and those three places will be
in a recognizable "row". You always connect the white neutral wire to
the middle location and the red and black power wires to the outside
locations. It doesn't matter whether the black goes on this side or
that, or the red for that matter, as long as the white is in the middle
and the red and black are on either side, you're good.
If there is a location for a ground wire, it will not be on that
recognizable "row", for if it were, it could cause confusion.
So, look at the terminal block on that heater where you connect the
wires. If you see a recognizable "row" of three connection sites, it's
almost certainly a 220 volt heater. Otherwise, it's a 120 VAC heater,
in which case there will be only two connection points and possibly a
place to connect a ground wire as well.
You won't hurt a 220 volt appliance by trying to drive it with only 120
VAC. All that will happen is that the heating elements won't get nearly
as hot as they should.
So, maybe the safest bet is to try connecting 120 VAC to the heater and
see if it works properly. If not, it's probably cuz it needs 220 VAC
power.
--
nestork


Thank you for the help!

--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...rd-769935-.htm
using HomeOwnersHub's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface
to home and garden related groups

The electric panel is in the garage and it has about a dozen spare slots
I use pressure washer mainly for washing the concrete driveway outside the
garage.

I remember reading outlets in garage (considered a wet location) need to be
GFCI protected.
Is there such thing as 240V GFCI outlet, or does one just install two
regular GFCI breakers in the panel to protect one 240V GFCI outlet?

Thanks for the responses.

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:32:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:56:16 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"

wrote:



On 11/10/13 05:59 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:



I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.

With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone

around here has a dryer.



The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put

in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near

the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.

What's your use of pressure washer, right at the

house? Washing your vinyl siding?



G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire

and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.



Our old house had a hard-wired dryer, so when we replaced the dryer we

had a 4-wire outlet installed. the house to which we moved -- where we

live now -- has a 3-wire socket , so I replace the 4-wire cord on the

dryer by a 3-wire cord and made whatever change was required at the

dryer end; forget the details now.



Is it OK (Code compliant) simply to run a separate ground conductor

alongside the existing 3-conductor Romex and replace the 3-wire outlet

by a 4-wire outlet and reinstall the 4-wire cord on the dryer and change

the connections on the dryer end back again? Or would I have to replace

the 3-conductor Romex by 4-conductor?



Perce



What does it say on the jacket? If it was legally wired using romex

there is going to be a ground in there most of the time.

Typically they used 10/3 wg since this is a neutral used as a ground,

not a ground. It should be a white wire.

The ground wire may be tied to the box or simply cut off.

If it is wired with SE cable, there will not be an extra wire.

No, it's not. Because it's not ok for you to use the existing ground line as a neutral plus it's not ok for you to run single conductor outside of a conduit.

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:17:13 AM UTC-5, bob wrote:
The electric panel is in the garage and it has about a dozen spare slots

I use pressure washer mainly for washing the concrete driveway outside the

garage.



I remember reading outlets in garage (considered a wet location) need to be

GFCI protected.

Is there such thing as 240V GFCI outlet, or does one just install two

regular GFCI breakers in the panel to protect one 240V GFCI outlet?



Thanks for the responses.

There are larger double gang gfci breakers. You probably are supposed to have one but I suspect a lot of people do not. They tend to be around $100 once you go above 20 amp for double gfci breakers unfortunately. Since it's in the garage I would recommend running #10 3 conductor with a ground. You do not have to connect the neutral at the outlet if you do not need it for your pressure washer. But if you ever have anything else 220 then you will have the neutral if you need it. If your pressure washer has a 4 prong plug then you will be able to connect the neutral to the new socket.

On 11/12/13 04:46 pm, jamesgang wrote:
On Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:32:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:56:16 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"

wrote:



On 11/10/13 05:59 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:



I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.

With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone

around here has a dryer.



The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put

in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near

the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.

What's your use of pressure washer, right at the

house? Washing your vinyl siding?



G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire

and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.



Our old house had a hard-wired dryer, so when we replaced the dryer we

had a 4-wire outlet installed. the house to which we moved -- where we

live now -- has a 3-wire socket , so I replace the 4-wire cord on the

dryer by a 3-wire cord and made whatever change was required at the

dryer end; forget the details now.



Is it OK (Code compliant) simply to run a separate ground conductor

alongside the existing 3-conductor Romex and replace the 3-wire outlet

by a 4-wire outlet and reinstall the 4-wire cord on the dryer and change

the connections on the dryer end back again? Or would I have to replace

the 3-conductor Romex by 4-conductor?



Perce



What does it say on the jacket? If it was legally wired using romex

there is going to be a ground in there most of the time.

Typically they used 10/3 wg since this is a neutral used as a ground,

not a ground. It should be a white wire.

The ground wire may be tied to the box or simply cut off.

If it is wired with SE cable, there will not be an extra wire.

No, it's not. Because it's not ok for you to use the existing ground line as a neutral plus it's not ok for you to run single conductor outside of a conduit.

The cable is labeled "COLUMBIA 10/3 TYPE NM 600V (UL)". I haven't opened
up either end yet -- panel or outlet box -- to see whether there is a
separate ground conductor. so for now, at least, I'm going to leave
everything the way it is.

Perce

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:11:14 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 11/12/13 04:46 pm, jamesgang wrote:
On Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:32:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:56:16 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"

wrote:



On 11/10/13 05:59 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:



I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.

With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone

around here has a dryer.



The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put

in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near

the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.

What's your use of pressure washer, right at the

house? Washing your vinyl siding?



G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire

and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.



Our old house had a hard-wired dryer, so when we replaced the dryer we

had a 4-wire outlet installed. the house to which we moved -- where we

live now -- has a 3-wire socket , so I replace the 4-wire cord on the

dryer by a 3-wire cord and made whatever change was required at the

dryer end; forget the details now.



Is it OK (Code compliant) simply to run a separate ground conductor

alongside the existing 3-conductor Romex and replace the 3-wire outlet

by a 4-wire outlet and reinstall the 4-wire cord on the dryer and change

the connections on the dryer end back again? Or would I have to replace

the 3-conductor Romex by 4-conductor?



Perce



What does it say on the jacket? If it was legally wired using romex

there is going to be a ground in there most of the time.

Typically they used 10/3 wg since this is a neutral used as a ground,

not a ground. It should be a white wire.

The ground wire may be tied to the box or simply cut off.

If it is wired with SE cable, there will not be an extra wire.

No, it's not. Because it's not ok for you to use the existing ground line as a neutral plus it's not ok for you to run single conductor outside of a conduit.

The cable is labeled "COLUMBIA 10/3 TYPE NM 600V (UL)". I haven't opened
up either end yet -- panel or outlet box -- to see whether there is a
separate ground conductor. so for now, at least, I'm going to leave
everything the way it is.

Perce
If the wire was installed since the mid-sixties it WILL have the 4th
conductor - usually a bare copper, for ground.. Is it a tarred
paper/fabric sheath or plastic? If it is plastic, 99.999% it has a
ground.

On 11/11/2013 01:42 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/11/2013 1:46 PM, sam E wrote:
On 11/11/2013 05:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

So, G provides a cord that allows one to plug a
THREE wire device into a FOUR wire socket. That
violates separation of powers.... how?


It would if you connected BOTH ground and neutral to the third prong.
You don't have to do that.

Well, starting with a three wire AC (hot, hot, ground)
and plugging into a three wire socket (hot, hot,
ground). What neutral wire are you talking about?
I've looked all over, and can't find one here.


No matter how many times I've looked, the question I replied to mentions
a FOUR wire socket, which most likely includes neutral.

--
42 days until The winter celebration (Wednesday December 25, 2013 12:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

Christian: I'll pray for you. Atheist: Then I'll think for both of us.

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11:14 PM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 11/12/13 04:46 pm, jamesgang wrote:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:32:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:56:16 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"



wrote:







On 11/10/13 05:59 am, Stormin Mormon wrote:







I put a dryer plug on mine and I have a 50' and a 25' extension cord.



With another 80' of hose I can get just about anywhere and everyone



around here has a dryer.







The OP: Most of the time, it's no big deal to put



in a new socket. Especially if the garage is near



the panel, and if the garage is atached to the house.



What's your use of pressure washer, right at the



house? Washing your vinyl siding?







G: Thanks to the government, we now have three wire



and four wire dryer sockets. Sigh.







Our old house had a hard-wired dryer, so when we replaced the dryer we



had a 4-wire outlet installed. the house to which we moved -- where we



live now -- has a 3-wire socket , so I replace the 4-wire cord on the



dryer by a 3-wire cord and made whatever change was required at the



dryer end; forget the details now.







Is it OK (Code compliant) simply to run a separate ground conductor



alongside the existing 3-conductor Romex and replace the 3-wire outlet



by a 4-wire outlet and reinstall the 4-wire cord on the dryer and change



the connections on the dryer end back again? Or would I have to replace



the 3-conductor Romex by 4-conductor?







Perce







What does it say on the jacket? If it was legally wired using romex



there is going to be a ground in there most of the time.



Typically they used 10/3 wg since this is a neutral used as a ground,



not a ground. It should be a white wire.



The ground wire may be tied to the box or simply cut off.



If it is wired with SE cable, there will not be an extra wire.



No, it's not. Because it's not ok for you to use the existing ground line as a neutral plus it's not ok for you to run single conductor outside of a conduit.



The cable is labeled "COLUMBIA 10/3 TYPE NM 600V (UL)". I haven't opened

up either end yet -- panel or outlet box -- to see whether there is a

separate ground conductor. so for now, at least, I'm going to leave

everything the way it is.



Perce

It quite unusual to find wire without a ground in it these days. It's most likely that your 10/3 also has a bare ground wire in it.

In present code you can use 3 lead wire as two hots and a ground but you can't use it as 2 hots and a neutral. You can't connect the ground and neutral together anywhere outside the main box nor can you use one in place of another. The ground can not intentionally carry current.