I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA


--
"Where there's smoke there's toast!" Anon

On 10/26/2013 2:25 PM, KenK wrote:
I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA



I'm no expert but had one pipe burst years ago that was in an unheated
space. It apparently takes repeated freezing and thawing before the
pipe bursts after stretching beyond its breaking point. Density of
water is lowest at the freezing point.

I'd say, since that is happening with you it would be a good idea to get
freeze protection before it happens.

Our pipe burst in the ceiling over the basement family room and caused
minimum damage as someone was home at the time. It could have been a
real mess. Insurance paid for water damage but not plumbing repair.
Plumber rerouted pipe to a heated area.

On 10/26/2013 2:25 PM, KenK wrote:
I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA


Dripping does not prevent it from freezing, running does.
But that can waste quite a bit of water.

--
Jeff

On 10/26/2013 2:25 PM, KenK wrote:
I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA



You might want to consider a thermostatically controled wire wrap...
which on morns below freezing the heating element keep the pipe warm.

--
Jeff

On 10/26/2013 11:25 AM, KenK wrote:
I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA


Goog grief! Ask your neighbors. What kind of pipes? PVC will break with
little ice pressure. Metal takes a lot more.

Paul

On 26 Oct 2013 18:25:07 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

Any exposed pipe should be wrapped with heat tape and insulation. If
it's in the wall of heated space, you're probably alright.

On 26 Oct 2013 18:25:07 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA

Why would it be expensive to insulate them? You would only need to
insulate whatever part is above ground. Stuff I would think plenty
good enough for AZ is a little over a buck a foot.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Tubolit-1...3357677?N=buy9

On 26 Oct 2013 18:25:07 GMT, KenK wrote:

I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with rare
long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F. And
that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning until the sun
comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets below 32.
Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before pipes can get
damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing,

So you're living in the house and it has heat, right?

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

So it's only the exposed pipes that need something? I think that grey
split foam tubing would be enough too, since it doesn't get that cold
and only for a couple hours, but I add that I used that stuff in my
house and it definitely doesn't work hours and hours. I had the hope
that the warm water would come out warm at the sink farthest from the
water heater. I could only insulate the copper pipe in the basement.
The part going from the basement ceiling up the wall to the bathroom
on the second floor is still bare. After a while, the water is cold
again (and I have to wait until hot water comes all the way from the
water heater.) It might take 2 hours, maybe less.

How old is the house btw. Have any pipes ever burst before? What do
your neighbors do, esp. the ones with similar houses.

Needlessly worrying?

I hate to say yes, in case the answer is no.

TIA

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

After a while, the water is cold
again (and I have to wait until hot water comes all the way from the
water heater.) It might take 2 hours, maybe less.

That's one hell of a long pipe run! (just funnin' ya!)

--
Bobby G.

On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 01:13:05 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"micky" wrote in message

stuff snipped

After a while, the water is cold
again (and I have to wait until hot water comes all the way from the
water heater.) It might take 2 hours, maybe less.

That's one hell of a long pipe run! (just funnin' ya!)

Yeah, LOL. I noticed that too when I read what I wrote.

I've been up since 4:30 and I'm still waiting for hot water.

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 6:20:28 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:

Exactly how much it takes to freeze a pipe is a
question most of us have worried about one time or
another. There isn't any easy answer. Any we
sure don't have enough info from the OP to try to
make a guess. But given that the OP said this:

" In the past, with rare long-ago exceptions, the
coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly 25 F."

"Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but that doesn't always
seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice early in the morning.
Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and associated plumbing"

All it takes is one rare exception.


The next issue is how exposed it is. Sitting
out in the wide open, with free air flow on all
sides is going to be worst case. If it's under
a porch, in a crawlspace or otherwise partially
protected, it will take colder/longer to make it
freeze. Another issue is what the pipe material is.
But clearly it has frozen enough to block it,
how much more you have to go to burst it, IDK,
but I would not be taking the chance.

If this is the well water for the house, I don't
understand why it would have been installed so
that it can freeze to begin with. How exactly
to best protect it IDK because we don't have
enough info.

If someone is going to be there for sure when it
could freeze, then leave the water running so
the pump will come on about once an hour. With
new 50F water coming in, that will keep it from
freezing. A drip won't do it. It's obviously
not fool proof because it depends on someone
being there, remembering, etc.

KenK wrote:
I live in a rural area in the far SW corner of AZ. In the past, with
rare long-ago exceptions, the coldest it gets is 28 or so, possibly
25 F. And that during maybe a week or so only early in the morning
until the sun comes up.

Of course, being me, I worry about burst pipes every time it gets
below 32. Actually, how cold for how long does it have to get before
pipes can get damaged? Yes, I know about leaving the water drip but
that doesn't always seem to work - I've still had them blocked by ice
early in the morning. Then too, there's the well pump, water tank and
associated plumbing,

Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g
Worth getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be
expensive. At my age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.

Needlessly worrying?

TIA

Of course, it depends on what you setup is, where the pipes and pump are
located in relation to heated areas of the building, etc. Heat tape and/or
insulation or boxing in the pump and tank area etc. may be all you need.

You haven't had much of a problem so far, except for some ice blocking in
the morning every once in a while.

Since it is a well, you don't pay for water, although you do pay to power
the pump. Maybe you could just keep an eye on the overnight temps and if it
is going to be cold enough, let the water run more than just a drip during
the overnight or just run the water briefly a few times during the night.

If you are really ambitious and can upload a few photos, that may help.

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 18:06:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

Why would it be expensive to insulate them? You would only need to
insulate whatever part is above ground. Stuff I would think plenty
good enough for AZ is a little over a buck a foot.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Tubolit-1...3357677?N=buy9

Exactly!

In 18 years of living in the desert, I've only had one (outside hose
bib) brass pressure vacuum breaker valve freeze and break. Easy to
cover with some old flannel shirts in the winter. PVC pipes done with
the foam and a few strips of duct tape.

wrote in message news:81399a48-f535-4ae5-93af-

stuff snipped

If someone is going to be there for sure when it
could freeze, then leave the water running so
the pump will come on about once an hour. With
new 50F water coming in, that will keep it from
freezing. A drip won't do it. It's obviously
not fool proof because it depends on someone
being there, remembering, etc.

Agreed. That's why a thermostatically controlled pipe wrap heater is the
best bet. A mechanical thermostat doesn't draw any standby power so the
only expense is the initial cost of the heater and the power to run it when
it get cold enough to require it.

That's a small price for the peace of mind gained and it doesn't require
anyone to remember anything or to be there if there's an unexpected cold
snap. Considering what a mess burst pipes can cause, I'd be shopping for
those heaters today if I were the OP, especially since he's reported that
the pipes have frozen to the point of blocking already.

--
Bobby G.

On Saturday, October 26, 2013 1:25:07 PM UTC-5, KenK wrote:
[...]
Winter is getting close. It's down to the low 90s during the day.g Worth
getting exposed pipes insulated? I suspect that would be expensive. At my
age - 79 - I can't do too many things myself anymore.


Heck, why worry? Drain the pipes on cold nights.

On 26 Oct 2013 18:25:07 GMT, KenK wrote:

YES - You should always worry! There are millions of things to worry
about, and I suggest you worry about all of them!

KenK:
I would buy the electrical heating cable, wrap it around your exposed piping and then insulate over the wrapped pipe.

Water is strange. When you cool it, it shrinks all the way down to about 4 degrees Celsius above freezing, or about 39.2 degrees F. Then, upon further cooling, it expands very slightly as it approaches the freezing point of 0 deg. C (32 deg. F) and then expands by a whopping 9 percent as it freezes. However, once frozen, further cooling of the H2O causes the ice to shrink, just as normal solids shrink as they are cooled.

Fileensity of ice and water (en).svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The point here is that the damage caused by freezing water to masonary, plumbing pipes and everything else, occurs at MILD temperatures, not the bitterly cold temperatures you might expect. H2O expansion from 4 deg. Celsius to freezing generally doesn't do any harm because the water can still flow. However, as the water freezes at 0 deg. Celsius is where the masonary and plumbing pipes crack and the potholes in the road get bigger. Below freezing, the ice shrinks as it cools, thereby relieving the stress previously caused by expansion during freezing. So, if you can get past the freezing point without damage, then further cooling will actually relieve the stress in the pipes and masonary as the ice shrinks, not worsten it.

So, Ken, I'd like to be reassuring you that you have nothing to worry about, but I can't do that. Freezing damage occurs at the freezing point, or the mildest temperature that ice can exist, not at the bitterly cold conditions that generally don't occur where you live. And, you run the risk of cracking a pipe both as the water freezes and as the ice warms back up because the ice will be at it's minimum density (or maximum volume) at the freezing point in both cases.