Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box,
to store some items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a
dollar-wise sense, but rather things I want to protect from
a home disaster, such as a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard
drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they
carry such a chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item gets
some bad reviews for a hinge that is only plastic and breaks
off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First
Alert, and the user reviews on that also indicate mold
forming on documents placed inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all
"hermetically-sealed" type storage boxes? Probably stands to
reason. Can this be prevented with silica gel kept inside
the container, as well?

Has anyone else bought/used a similar storage container? It
doesn't have to be large (small enough to be "carry-able",
at least into the basement), but the whole pupose (above and
beyond a basic "safe") is that it withstand a house fire,
and the subsequent water poured in by the fire department to
quell the house fire.

Another thought -- for those who keep a fire-resistant safe
(but NOT waterproof), how do you handle documents/items
inside? Will keeping the items in waterproof bags _inside_
the safe work?

Thanks,
- John

"John Albert" wrote in message
. com
Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box,
to store some items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a
dollar-wise sense, but rather things I want to protect
from a home disaster, such as a fire. Pehaps a few "bare"
hard drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they
carry such a chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item
gets some bad reviews for a hinge that is only plastic
and breaks off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First
Alert, and the user reviews on that also indicate mold
forming on documents placed inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all
"hermetically-sealed" type storage boxes? Probably stands
to reason. Can this be prevented with silica gel kept
inside the container, as well?

Has anyone else bought/used a similar storage container?
It doesn't have to be large (small enough to be
"carry-able", at least into the basement), but the whole
pupose (above and beyond a basic "safe") is that it
withstand a house fire, and the subsequent water poured
in by the fire department to quell the house fire.

Another thought -- for those who keep a fire-resistant
safe (but NOT waterproof), how do you handle
documents/items inside? Will keeping the items in
waterproof bags _inside_ the safe work?


I handle them - and the other stuff - with a safe deposit box at the bank.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 10/14/2013 07:41 AM, John Albert wrote:
Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box, to store some
items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a dollar-wise
sense, but rather things I want to protect from a home disaster, such as
a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they carry such a
chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item gets some bad reviews for a
hinge that is only plastic and breaks off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First Alert, and the
user reviews on that also indicate mold forming on documents placed
inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all "hermetically-sealed"
type storage boxes? Probably stands to reason. Can this be prevented
with silica gel kept inside the container, as well?

Yes. Even if it is sealed, warm/cold cycles will cause condensation,
which will feed the mold. Since I doubt any consumer enclosure would
actually be hermetically sealed, you will want to refresh/change the
silica gel from time to time.

Jon

John:

Another option to consider is renting a larger safety deposit box at your local financial institution.

But, you've been shopping at the wrong stores. I would go to may local locksmith's shop and see what they have in the way of small safes. But, safes are more meant to be tamper resistant than they are water resistant.

If I was wanting to make things waterproof inside such a storage box, I'd buy one of those home vaccuum packer's for food or clothing. They advertise them on TV so that you can vaccuum pack your own food and pack a quilt into a bag the size of a baggie. If air can't get into such a bag, water can't either.

I think if I wanted to protect something from fire, I'd put it in a vaccuum bottle like you find inside every Thermos.

If you can vaccuum pack your documents, roll them up and put them in a vaccuum bottle, they would survive everything but a fall.

I'm now thinking that if you can stopper up that vaccuum bottle, and let it float in a metal bucket of water, in a fire all of that water would have to boil off before the temperature inside the vaccuum bottle would rise above 212 deg. F.

On 10/14/2013 11:04 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Another thought -- for those who keep a fire-resistant
safe (but NOT waterproof), how do you handle
documents/items inside? Will keeping the items in
waterproof bags _inside_ the safe work?


I handle them - and the other stuff - with a safe deposit box at the bank.

And that relies on other people to give you permission
to get at your own stuff.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
"John Albert" wrote in message


I handle them - and the other stuff - with a safe deposit box at the bank.


There are some items that you do not want to store in a safe deposit box at
a bank.

A will is one of them. At the time of death, the box becomes sealed for a
while and you have to have an officer of the court with the person opening
it and an inverntory is then made.

When my dad died, all that was in his box was a lot of old coins. The court
officer thought she was going to be there hours counting them. She decided
to just call it 'one coin collection' and we took care of it in a few
minuits.

Scan any important documments and keep them on you with a USB drive and
another one at someones house in a sealed envelope.

If you are worried about mildue, you can do what the gun safes do. There
are smaller electric heaters that only run about 5 to 20 watts that go
inside the safe to keep it dried out inside.

On 10/14/2013 09:41 AM, John Albert wrote:
Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box, to store some
items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a dollar-wise
sense, but rather things I want to protect from a home disaster, such as
a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard drives, some important papers, etc.




Surplus ammo boxes are pretty good...but really you need to store copies
of everything odd-site.

In article ,
John Albert wrote:

Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box,
to store some items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a
dollar-wise sense, but rather things I want to protect from
a home disaster, such as a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard
drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they
carry such a chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item gets
some bad reviews for a hinge that is only plastic and breaks
off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First
Alert, and the user reviews on that also indicate mold
forming on documents placed inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all
"hermetically-sealed" type storage boxes? Probably stands to
reason. Can this be prevented with silica gel kept inside
the container, as well?

Has anyone else bought/used a similar storage container? It
doesn't have to be large (small enough to be "carry-able",
at least into the basement), but the whole pupose (above and
beyond a basic "safe") is that it withstand a house fire,
and the subsequent water poured in by the fire department to
quell the house fire.

Another thought -- for those who keep a fire-resistant safe
(but NOT waterproof), how do you handle documents/items
inside? Will keeping the items in waterproof bags _inside_
the safe work?

Thanks,
- John

Costco currently has (online only) a SentrySafe 1.23 cuft electronic
USB-connected Fire Safe for under $200 which looks interesting

On 10/14/2013 9:41 AM, John Albert wrote:
Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box, to store some
items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a dollar-wise
sense, but rather things I want to protect from a home disaster, such as
a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they carry such a
chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item gets some bad reviews for a
hinge that is only plastic and breaks off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First Alert, and the
user reviews on that also indicate mold forming on documents placed
inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all "hermetically-sealed"
type storage boxes? Probably stands to reason. Can this be prevented
with silica gel kept inside the container, as well?

Has anyone else bought/used a similar storage container? It doesn't have
to be large (small enough to be "carry-able", at least into the
basement), but the whole pupose (above and beyond a basic "safe") is
that it withstand a house fire, and the subsequent water poured in by
the fire department to quell the house fire.

Another thought -- for those who keep a fire-resistant safe (but NOT
waterproof), how do you handle documents/items inside? Will keeping the
items in waterproof bags _inside_ the safe work?

Thanks,
- John

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu

TDD

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:32:51 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

I handle them - and the other stuff - with a safe deposit box at the bank.


There are some items that you do not want to store in a safe deposit box at
a bank.

A will is one of them. At the time of death, the box becomes sealed for a
while and you have to have an officer of the court with the person opening
it and an inverntory is then made.

A _Power of Attorney_ held by the relatives?

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:56:10 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu


$899.99 - wow! Is that price accurate?

Oren,

Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your State's
laws.

Dave M.

On 10/14/2013 03:50 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:56:10 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu


$899.99 - wow! Is that price accurate?


I doubt it!

http://www.foodsaver.com/vacuum-sealers

"David L. Martel" wrote in message
...
Oren,

Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your
State's laws.

Dave M.

They do or atleast did 10 years ago in North Carolina. I had one with my
dad and the lawyer told me when we got it, it would stop at his death.

Many things are locked up/frozen or whatever at death. If you and someone
close have money together in a bank or stock or whatever, make sure you have
a clause in it that includes right of survivorship. That way at death
everything goes to you. There may be some laws that state you have to clear
all the bills before you get the money free and clear. It also can
eliminate some estate taxes as that money is not put on the offical books.
Lots of fine points of the law than most working people do not know about.
The rich have lawyers and such to make sure they keep most of the money.
I only know of a few.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:14 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"David L. Martel" wrote in message
...
Oren,

Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your
State's laws.

Dave M.

They do or atleast did 10 years ago in North Carolina. I had one with my
dad and the lawyer told me when we got it, it would stop at his death.

Many things are locked up/frozen or whatever at death. If you and someone
close have money together in a bank or stock or whatever, make sure you have
a clause in it that includes right of survivorship. That way at death
everything goes to you. There may be some laws that state you have to clear
all the bills before you get the money free and clear. It also can
eliminate some estate taxes as that money is not put on the offical books.
Lots of fine points of the law than most working people do not know about.
The rich have lawyers and such to make sure they keep most of the money.
I only know of a few.



What if the survivor(s) is/are on the account for the safe deposit
box, on the bank account and have a key for the box? Signature on file
at the bank.

Not a lawyer, but it seems to me one could stroll into the bank, empty
the box before the court would get involved?

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:57:05 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Oren,

Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your State's
laws.

Dave M.

Yes, and for sure, any uncashed check you've written is no good
anymore, the moment you die.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:50:13 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:56:10 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu


$899.99 - wow! Is that price accurate?

For that price, you could buy a food printer and make as many copies
of your food as you wanted.

And you wouldn't have to save the food at all, except on a harddrive
or flash drive. Then when you're hungry, just print some.

"Oren" wrote in message
...

What if the survivor(s) is/are on the account for the safe deposit
box, on the bank account and have a key for the box? Signature on file
at the bank.

Not a lawyer, but it seems to me one could stroll into the bank, empty
the box before the court would get involved?

I have no idea on that. I just know that in order to be safe have the will
and maybe some other things in a place you can get to them and not in the
bank.

On 10/14/2013 2:50 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:56:10 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu


$899.99 - wow! Is that price accurate?


For that model, I wanted to see if anyone noticed. You can get a counter
top unit for $30.00 or a handheld for around $16.00 but zip lock bags
are the cheapest way to go. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/Deni-1331-Fres...ref=pd_sbs_k_5

http://tinyurl.com/nj3kpax

TDD

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:08:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 10/14/2013 2:50 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:56:10 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu


$899.99 - wow! Is that price accurate?


For that model, I wanted to see if anyone noticed. You can get a counter
top unit for $30.00 or a handheld for around $16.00 but zip lock bags
are the cheapest way to go. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/Deni-1331-Fres...ref=pd_sbs_k_5

http://tinyurl.com/nj3kpax

TDD

I was wondering. For $900.00, you should at least get a side of beef
and a few chickens with it.

banks get notified of people dying to freeze their assets and access to everything.........

On Monday, October 14, 2013 4:24:08 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:14 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:





"David L. Martel" wrote in message

...

Oren,



Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your

State's laws.



Dave M.



They do or atleast did 10 years ago in North Carolina. I had one with my

dad and the lawyer told me when we got it, it would stop at his death.



Many things are locked up/frozen or whatever at death. If you and someone

close have money together in a bank or stock or whatever, make sure you have

a clause in it that includes right of survivorship. That way at death

everything goes to you. There may be some laws that state you have to clear

all the bills before you get the money free and clear. It also can

eliminate some estate taxes as that money is not put on the offical books.

Lots of fine points of the law than most working people do not know about.

The rich have lawyers and such to make sure they keep most of the money.

I only know of a few.







What if the survivor(s) is/are on the account for the safe deposit

box, on the bank account and have a key for the box? Signature on file

at the bank.



Not a lawyer, but it seems to me one could stroll into the bank, empty

the box before the court would get involved?

You sure could. First, I would think that if you're on the
list of authorized users, you probably have the right to access
the box anyway. When a homeowner dies, they don't seal off
the house and tell the widow she can't go in. And second,
unless the deceased was someone prominent, the bank isn't]
likely to know they died anyhow. So, if the wife shows up,
it would just be a normal thing. If the deceased was the
only person on the box, then that's a different story.

Here in NJ, a court doesn't normally get involved directly
anyway, nor do you need a lawyer. If the deceased had a
will, the executor can take it to the county surrogates
office, file it, and receive a certificate of executorship.
With that, the executor can close bank accounts, security
accounts, access safe deposit boxes, etc. and then process
it per the terms of the will.

I agree with Ralph, that having a will readily accessible
at home though isn't a bad idea. You can have more than
one copy, one in the safe deposit box, one at home, etc.

On 10/14/2013 9:41 AM, John Albert wrote:
Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box, to store some
items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a dollar-wise
sense, but rather things I want to protect from a home disaster, such as
a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they carry such a
chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item gets some bad reviews for a
hinge that is only plastic and breaks off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First Alert, and the
user reviews on that also indicate mold forming on documents placed
inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all "hermetically-sealed"
type storage boxes? Probably stands to reason. Can this be prevented
with silica gel kept inside the container, as well?

I keep a can of silica gel (renewable kind that you pop in the oven for
a couple of hours when the top changes color) and keep both some
handguns and documents within.

Dispense with the desiccant and just use plastic bags and you should be
fine. For valuable papers, I'd think that zip lock bags would do the trick.

"Problem" with the "fireproof" (actually, resistant) safes is the gypsum
material used to insulate is designed to attract moisture - that's part
of it's insulating/fire resisting schtickg


Take a clue from the Preppers and make a PVC tube sealed on one end,
screw plumbing cap on the other - liberally lubricated with silicone
grease, toss some desiccant packs in with the papers and put the whole
kit in the safe.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:24:08 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:14 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"David L. Martel" wrote in message
...
Oren,

Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your
State's laws.

Dave M.

They do or atleast did 10 years ago in North Carolina. I had one with my
dad and the lawyer told me when we got it, it would stop at his death.

Many things are locked up/frozen or whatever at death. If you and someone
close have money together in a bank or stock or whatever, make sure you have
a clause in it that includes right of survivorship. That way at death
everything goes to you. There may be some laws that state you have to clear
all the bills before you get the money free and clear. It also can
eliminate some estate taxes as that money is not put on the offical books.
Lots of fine points of the law than most working people do not know about.
The rich have lawyers and such to make sure they keep most of the money.
I only know of a few.



What if the survivor(s) is/are on the account for the safe deposit
box, on the bank account and have a key for the box? Signature on file
at the bank.

Not a lawyer, but it seems to me one could stroll into the bank, empty
the box before the court would get involved?

That's usually what happens but before the bank finds out that the old
man croaked. Lawyers will say, "I didn't tell you this, but get down
there before the death notice...". Even in the case of a jointly held
box, it has to be inventoried. Nothing says that everything in the
box is jointly owned. The tax man also wants to get paid. Another
reason that everything should be in joint survivorship.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:27:47 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:57:05 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

Oren,

Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your State's
laws.

Dave M.

Yes, and for sure, any uncashed check you've written is no good
anymore, the moment you die.

Nonsense.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:36:24 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:50:13 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:56:10 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You can always get a vacuum food sealer that would do dual duty in the
kitchen and in the office for sealing anything in a vacuum sealed
plastic pouch. Heck you could probably protect documents in zip lock
freezer bags too. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-Adva.../dp/B000AANXDG

http://tinyurl.com/6gtrswu


$899.99 - wow! Is that price accurate?

For that price, you could buy a food printer and make as many copies
of your food as you wanted.

But HP charges a fortune for the cartridges.

And you wouldn't have to save the food at all, except on a harddrive
or flash drive. Then when you're hungry, just print some.

Ever hear of "stiction"?

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:52:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2013 4:24:08 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:14 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:





"David L. Martel" wrote in message

...

Oren,



Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your

State's laws.



Dave M.



They do or atleast did 10 years ago in North Carolina. I had one with my

dad and the lawyer told me when we got it, it would stop at his death.



Many things are locked up/frozen or whatever at death. If you and someone

close have money together in a bank or stock or whatever, make sure you have

a clause in it that includes right of survivorship. That way at death

everything goes to you. There may be some laws that state you have to clear

all the bills before you get the money free and clear. It also can

eliminate some estate taxes as that money is not put on the offical books.

Lots of fine points of the law than most working people do not know about.

The rich have lawyers and such to make sure they keep most of the money.

I only know of a few.







What if the survivor(s) is/are on the account for the safe deposit

box, on the bank account and have a key for the box? Signature on file

at the bank.



Not a lawyer, but it seems to me one could stroll into the bank, empty

the box before the court would get involved?

You sure could. First, I would think that if you're on the
list of authorized users, you probably have the right to access
the box anyway. When a homeowner dies, they don't seal off
the house and tell the widow she can't go in. And second,
unless the deceased was someone prominent, the bank isn't]
likely to know they died anyhow. So, if the wife shows up,
it would just be a normal thing. If the deceased was the
only person on the box, then that's a different story.

Here in NJ, a court doesn't normally get involved directly
anyway, nor do you need a lawyer. If the deceased had a
will, the executor can take it to the county surrogates
office, file it, and receive a certificate of executorship.
With that, the executor can close bank accounts, security
accounts, access safe deposit boxes, etc. and then process
it per the terms of the will.

I agree with Ralph, that having a will readily accessible
at home though isn't a bad idea. You can have more than
one copy, one in the safe deposit box, one at home, etc.

I have a POA for Mom, on a bank account, key to the deposit box. We
each have her documents (Living Will I think) as to turn off her life
support. I have a key for the box which is mostly empty now. Other
relatives / survivors on another account she has.

Between us all we can handle her final business, close accounts,
remove ourselves, pay her bills, close her SS & retirement pension
accounts. Collect life insurance, etc.

Any joint account I have with my wife gives her the same power. She
gets the house, etc.

It is still her account even if I die. She can collect benefits from
SS, pension and annuities directed for her.

IMO, is isn't complicated at all.

Point: Many things can happen before a death certificate is issued.
And afterwards, too.

micky,

This seems unlikely. Do you have a citation?

Dave M.

On 10/14/2013 11:04 AM, dadiOH wrote:
"John Albert" wrote in message
. com
Hello all -

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box,
to store some items in the basement of my house.

The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a
dollar-wise sense, but rather things I want to protect
from a home disaster, such as a fire. Pehaps a few "bare"
hard drives, some important papers, etc.

If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they
carry such a chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item
gets some bad reviews for a hinge that is only plastic
and breaks off, plus mildew inside.

I've seen another (similarly-priced and sized) by First
Alert, and the user reviews on that also indicate mold
forming on documents placed inside over time.

I'm wondering if mold becomes a problem in all
"hermetically-sealed" type storage boxes? Probably stands
to reason. Can this be prevented with silica gel kept
inside the container, as well?

Has anyone else bought/used a similar storage container?
It doesn't have to be large (small enough to be
"carry-able", at least into the basement), but the whole
pupose (above and beyond a basic "safe") is that it
withstand a house fire, and the subsequent water poured
in by the fire department to quell the house fire.

Another thought -- for those who keep a fire-resistant
safe (but NOT waterproof), how do you handle
documents/items inside? Will keeping the items in
waterproof bags _inside_ the safe work?


I handle them - and the other stuff - with a safe deposit box at the bank.


Safe deposit boxes at banks are not waterproof; doesn't usually matter
unless the bank is a block from the Gulf of Mexico or somewhere similar.

On 10/14/2013 9:20 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:52:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2013 4:24:08 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:13:14 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:





"David L. Martel" wrote in message

...

Oren,



Powers of attorney often cease at the moment of death. Check your

State's laws.



Dave M.


13+ Amazing Uses for WD-40

WD-40 has far more uses than just on squeaky hinges. Find out the
amazing ways this garage staple can make your life easier.


1. Use WD-40 to protect a bird feeder

To keep squirrels from taking over a bird feeder, spray a generous
amount of WD-40 on top of the feeder. The pesky squirrels will slide
right off.

Hemera/Thinkstock
2. Separate stuck glassware

What can you do when you reach for a drinking glass and get two locked
together, one stuck tightly inside the other? You don’t want to risk
breaking one or both by trying to pull them apart. Stuck glasses will
separate with ease if you squirt some WD-40 on them, wait a few seconds
for it to work its way between the glasses, and then gently pull the
glasses apart. Remember to wash the glasses thoroughly before you use them.


3. Get off that stuck ring

When pulling and tugging can’t get that ring off your finger, reach for
the WD-40. A short burst of WD-40 will get the ring to slide right off.
Remember to wash your hands after spraying them with WD-40.

Hemera/Thinkstock
4. Exterminate roaches and repel insects

Don’t let cockroaches, insects, or spiders get the upper hand in your
home. • Keep a can of WD-40 handy, and when you see a roach, spray a
small amount directly on it for an instant kill. • To keep insects and
spiders out of your home, spray WD-40 on windowsills and frames,
screens, and door frames. Be careful not to inhale the fumes when you
spray and do not do this at all if you have babies or small children at
home.

Hemera/Thinkstock
5. Remove chewing gum from hair

It’s one of an adult’s worst nightmares: chewing gum tangled in a
child’s hair. You don’t have to panic or run for the scissors. Simply
spray the gummed-up hair with WD-40, and the gum will comb out with
ease. Make sure you are in a well-ventilated area when you spray and
take care to avoid contact with the child’s eyes.


6. Remove tough scuff marks

Those tough black scuff marks on your kitchen floor won’t be so tough
anymore if you spray them with WD-40. Use WD-40 to help remove tar and
scuff marks on all your hard-surfaced floors. It won’t harm the surface,
and you won’t have to scrub nearly as much. Remember to open the windows
if you are cleaning a lot of marks.

Hemera/Thinkstock
7. Wipe away tea stains

To remove tea stains from countertops, spray a little WD-40 on a sponge
or damp cloth and wipe the stain away.

Jupiterimages/Polka Dot/Thinkstock
8. Clean toilet bowls

You don’t need a bald genie or a specialized product to clean ugly gunk
and lime stains from your toilet bowl. Use WD-40 instead: Spray it into
the bowl for a couple of seconds and swish with a nylon toilet brush.
The solvents in the WD-40 will help dissolve the gunk and lime.


9. Winterproof boots and shoes

Waterproof your winter boots and shoes by giving them a coat of WD-40.
It’ll act as a barrier so water can’t penetrate the material. Also use
WD-40 to remove ugly salt stains from boots and shoes during the winter
months. Just spray WD-40 onto the stains and wipe with a clean rag. Your
boots and shoes will look almost as good as new.


10. Clean and restore license plate

To help restore a license plate that is beginning to rust, spray it with
WD-40 and wipe with a clean rag. This will remove light surface rust and
will also help prevent more rust from forming. It’s an easy way to clean
up lightly rusted plates and it won’t leave a greasy feel.

Hemera Technologies/Photos.com/Thinkstock
11. Prevent snow buildup on windows

Does the weather forecast predict a big winter snowstorm? You can’t stop
the snow from falling, but you can prevent it from building up on your
house’s windows. Just spray WD-40 over the outside of your windows
before the snow starts and the snow won’t stick.


12. Keep wasps from building nests

Don’t let yellow jackets and other wasps ruin your spring and summer
fun. Their favorite place to build nests is under eaves. So next spring
mist some WD-40 under all the eaves of your house. It will block the
wasps from building their nests there.


13. Remove doggie-doo

Uh-oh, now you’ve stepped in it! Few things in life are more unpleasant
than cleaning doggie-doo from the bottom of a sneaker, but the task will
be a lot easier if you have a can of WD-40 handy. Spray some on the
affected sole and use an old toothbrush to clean the crevices. Rinse
with cold water and the sneakers will be ready to hit the pavement
again. Now, don’t forget to watch where you step!


14. Tone down polyurethane shine

A new coat of polyurethane can sometimes make a wood floor look a little
too shiny. To tone down the shine and cut the glare, spray some WD-40
onto a soft cloth and wipe up the floor with it.


15. Remove strong glue

You didn’t wear protective gloves when using that super-strong glue and
now some of it is super-stuck to your fingers! Don’t panic. Just reach
for the WD-40, spray some directly on the sticky fingers, and rub your
hands together until your fingers are no longer sticky. Use WD-40 to
remove the glue from other unwanted surfaces as well.

Zoonar/Thinkstock
16. Loosen zippers

Stubborn zippers on jackets, pants, backpacks, and sleeping bags will
become compliant again after you spray them with WD-40. Just spray it on
and pull the zipper up and down a few times to distribute the lubricant
evenly over all the teeth. If you want to avoid getting the WD-40 on the
fabric, spray it on a plastic lid; then pick it up and apply it with an
artist’s brush.

Medioimages/Photodisc/Thinkstock
17. Clean and lubricate guitar strings

To clean, lubricate, and prevent corrosion on guitar strings, apply a
small amount of WD-40 after each playing. Spray the WD-40 on a rag and
wipe the rag over the strings rather than spraying directly on the
strings-you don’t want WD-40 to build up on the guitar neck or body.


18. Keep wooden tool handles splinter free

No tools can last forever, but you can prolong the life of your
wood-handled tools by preventing splintering. To keep wooden handles
from splintering, rub a generous amount of WD-40 into the wood. It will
shield the wood from moisture and other corrosive elements and keep it
smooth and splinter-free for the life of the tool.

Jupiterimages/Thinkstock
19. Break in a new baseball glove

Use WD-40 instead of neat’s-foot oil to break in a new baseball glove.
Spray the glove with WD-40, put a baseball in the palm, and fold it
sideways. Take a rubber band or belt and tie it around the folded glove.
The WD-40 will help soften the leather and help it form around the
baseball. Keep the glove tied up overnight, and then wear it for a while
so it will begin to fit the shape of your hand.


20. Relieve arthritis symptoms

For occasional joint pain or arthritis symptoms in the knees or other
areas of the body, advocates swear by spraying WD-40 on the affected
area and massaging it in, saying it provides temporary relief and makes
movement easier. For severe, persistent pain, consult a health care
professional.


21. Relieve bee sting pain

For fast relief of pain from a bee, wasp, or hornet sting, reach for the
WD-40 can and spray it directly on the bite site. It will take the
“ouch” right out.

Jupiterimages/Thinkstock
22. Remove stuck prostheses

If you wear a prosthetic device, you know how difficult it can be to
remove at times, especially when no one is around to help. Next time you
get stuck with a stuck prosthesis, spray some WD-40 at the junction
where it attaches. The chemical solvents and lubricants in WD-40 will
help make it easier to remove.


23. Clean dried glue

Clean dried glue from virtually any hard surface with ease: Simply spray
WD-40 onto the spot, wait at least 30 seconds, and wipe clean with a
damp cloth.


24. Degrease your hands

When you’re done working on the car and your hands are greasy and
blackened with grime, use WD-40 to help get them clean. Spray a small
amount of WD-40 into your hands and rub them together for a few seconds,
then wipe with a paper towel and wash with soap and water. The grease
and grime will wash right off.

Ingram Publishing/Thinkstock
25. Remove decals

You don’t need a chisel or even a razor blade to remove old decals,
bumper stickers, or cellophane tape. Just spray them with WD-40, wait
about 30 seconds, and wipe them away.

Digital Vision./Thinkstock
26. Remove stickers from glass

What were the manufacturers thinking when they put that sticker on the
glass? Don’t they know how hard it is to get off? When soap and water
doesn’t work and you don’t want to ruin a fingernail or risk scratching
delicate glass with a blade, try a little WD-40. Spray it on the sticker
and glass, wait a few minutes, and then use a no-scratch spatula or
acrylic scraper to scrape the sticker off. The solvents in WD-40 cause
the adhesive to lose its stickiness.


27. Clean carpet stains

Don’t let ink or other stains ruin your fine carpet. Spray the stain
with WD-40, wait a minute or two, and then use your regular carpet
cleaner or gently cleanse with a sponge and warm, soapy water. Continue
until the stain is completely gone.


28. Get tomato stains off clothes

That homegrown tomato looked so inviting you couldn’t resist. Now your
shirt or blouse has a big, hard-to-remove tomato stain! To remove stains
from fresh tomatoes or tomato sauce, spray some WD-40 directly on the
spot, wait a couple of minutes, and wash as usual.


29. Clean your fridge

When soap and water can’t get rid of old bits of food stuck in and
around your refrigerator, it’s time to reach for the WD-40. After
clearing all foodstuffs from the areas to be treated, spray a small
amount of WD-40 on each resistant spot. Then wipe them away with a rag
or sponge. Make sure you wash off all the WD-40 before returning food to
the fridge.


30. Condition leather furniture

Keep your favorite leather recliner and other leather furniture in
tip-top shape by softening and preserving it with WD-40. Just spray it
on and buff with a soft cloth. The combination of ingredients in WD-40
will clean, penetrate, lubricate, and protect the leather.

Fuse/Thinkstock
31. Pretreat blood and other stains

Oh no! Your kid fell down and cut himself while playing, and there’s
blood all over his brand-new shirt. After you tend to the wound, give
some first aid to the shirt too. Pretreat the bloodstains with WD-40.
Spray some directly on the stains, wait a couple of minutes, and then
launder as usual. The WD-40 will help lift the stain so that it will
come out easily in the wash. Try to get to the stain while it is still
fresh, because once it sets, it will be harder to get rid of. Use WD-40
to pretreat other stubborn stains on clothing, such as lipstick, dirt,
grease, and ink stains.


32. Remove marker and crayon marks

Did the kids use your wall as if it was a big coloring book? Not to
worry! Simply spray some WD-40 onto the marks and wipe with a clean rag.
WD-40 will not damage the paint or most wallpaper (test fabric or other
fancy wall coverings first). It will also remove marker and crayon marks
from furniture and appliances.

Jupiterimages/Brand X Pictures/Thinkstock
33. Remove old wax from skis and snowboards

To remove old wax and dirt from skis and snowboards, spray the base
sparingly with WD-40 before scraping with an acrylic scraper. Use a
brass brush to further clean the base and remove any oxidized base material.


34. Protect your boat from corrosion

To protect your boat’s outer finish from salt water and corrosion, spray
WD-40 on the stern immediately after each use. The short time it takes
will save you from having to replace parts, and it will keep your boat
looking like it did on the day you bought it for a long time to come.


35. Remove barnacles on boats

Removing barnacles from the bottom of a boat is a difficult and odious
task but you can make it easier and less unpleasant with the help of
some WD-40. Spray the area generously with WD-40, wait a few seconds,
and then use a putty knife to scrape off the barnacles. Spray any
remnants with WD-40 and scrape again. If necessary, use sandpaper to get
rid of all of the remnants and corrosive glue still left by the barnacles.

Ingram Publishing/Thinkstock
36. Spray on fishing lures

Salmon fishermen in the Pacific Northwest spray their lures with WD-40
because it attracts fish and disguises the human odor that can scare
them off and keep them from biting. You can increase the catch on your
next fishing trip by bringing a can of WD-40 along with you and spraying
it on your lures or live bait before you cast. But first check local
regulations to make sure the use of chemical-laced lures and bait is
legal in your state.


37. Untangle fishing lines

To loosen a tangled fishing line, spray it with WD-40 and use a pin to
undo any small knots. Also use WD-40 to extend the life of curled (but
not too old) fishing lines. Just take out the first 10 to 20 feet of
line and spray it with WD-40 the night before each trip.

Hemera/Thinkstock
38. Clean and protect golf clubs

Whether you’re a duffer or a pro, you can protect and clean your clubs
by spraying them with WD-40 after each use. Also use WD-40 to help
loosen stuck-on spikes.

Sean Gallup/Getty Images
39. Remove burrs from horse

To remove burrs from a horse’s mane or tail without tearing its hair out
(or having to cut any of its hair off!) just spray on some WD-40. You’ll
be able to slide the burrs right out. This will work for dogs and cats, too.


40. Protect horses hooves

Winter horseback riding can be fun if you are warmly dressed but it can
be downright painful to your horse if ice forms on the horseshoes. To
keep ice from forming on horseshoes during cold winter rides, spray the
bottom of the horse’s hooves with WD-40 before you set out.

Tim Boyle/Getty Images
41. Keep dead bugs off car grille

It’s bad enough that your car grille and hood have to get splattered
with bugs every time you drive down the interstate, but do they have to
be so darn tough to scrape off? The answer is no. Just spray some WD-40
on the grille and hood before going for a drive and most of the critters
will slide right off. The few bugs that are left will be easy to wipe
off later without damaging your car’s finish.

John Ferrey/Getty Images
42. Remove stuck spark plugs

To save time replacing spark plugs, do it the NASCAR way. NASCAR
mechanics spray WD-40 on stuck plugs so they can remove them quickly and
easily. Perhaps that’s one reason why WD-40 has been designated as
NASCAR’s “official multi-purpose problem-solver.”

Larry W Smith/Getty Images
43. Coat a truck bed

For easy removal of a truck-bed liner, spray the truck bed with WD-40
before you install the liner. When it comes time to remove it, the liner
will slide right out.


44. Remove "paint rub" from another car

You return to your parked car to find that while you were gone, another
vehicle got a bit too close for comfort. Luckily there’s no dent, but
now your car has a blotch of “paint rub” from the other car on it. To
remove paint-rub stains on your car and restore its original finish,
spray the affected area with WD-40, wait a few seconds, and wipe with a
clean rag.

Jupiterimages/Thinkstock
45. Revive spark plugs

Can’t get your car to start on a rainy or humid day? To get your engine
purring, just spray some WD-40 on the spark-plug wires before you try
starting it up again. WD-40 displaces water and keeps moisture away from
the plugs.


46. Clean oil spots from driveway

Did a leaky oil pan leave a big ugly spot in the middle of your concrete
driveway? To get rid of an unsightly oil spot, just spray it with a
generous amount of WD-40 and then hose it down with water.


47. Rejuvenate the barbecue grill

To make a worn old barbecue grill look like new again, spray it
liberally with WD-40, wait a few seconds, and scrub with a wire brush.
Remember to use WD-40 only on a grill that is not in use and has cooled off.


48. Renew faded plastic furniture

Bring color and shine back to faded plastic patio furniture. Simply
spray WD-40 directly on the surface and wipe with a clean, dry cloth.
You’ll be surprised at the results.

Thinkstock Images
49. Keep shovel or chute snow free

Here is a simple tip to make shoveling snow quicker and less strenuous
by keeping the snow from sticking to your shovel and weighing it down.
Spray a thin layer of WD-40 on the shovel blade, and the snow will slide
right off. If you have a snow thrower, spray WD-40 on the inside of the
chute so snow won’t stick and clog the chute.


50. Remove cat's paw marks

Your cat may seem like a member of the family most of the time, but that
isn’t what you are thinking about when you have to clean a slew of paw
marks off patio furniture or the hood of your car. To remove the paw
marks, spray some WD-40 on them and wipe with a clean rag.


51. Kill thistle plants

Don’t let pesky prickly weeds like bull and Russian thistle ruin your
yard or garden. Just spray some WD-40 on them and they’ll wither and die.
2013 The Reader's Digest Association, Inc.

They do or atleast did 10 years ago in North Carolina. I had one with my

dad and the lawyer told me when we got it, it would stop at his death.



Many things are locked up/frozen or whatever at death. If you and someone

close have money together in a bank or stock or whatever, make sure you have

a clause in it that includes right of survivorship. That way at death

everything goes to you. There may be some laws that state you have to clear

all the bills before you get the money free and clear. It also can

eliminate some estate taxes as that money is not put on the offical books.

Lots of fine points of the law than most working people do not know about.

The rich have lawyers and such to make sure they keep most of the money.

I only know of a few.







What if the survivor(s) is/are on the account for the safe deposit

box, on the bank account and have a key for the box? Signature on file

at the bank.



Not a lawyer, but it seems to me one could stroll into the bank, empty

the box before the court would get involved?

You sure could. First, I would think that if you're on the
list of authorized users, you probably have the right to access
the box anyway. When a homeowner dies, they don't seal off
the house and tell the widow she can't go in. And second,
unless the deceased was someone prominent, the bank isn't]
likely to know they died anyhow. So, if the wife shows up,
it would just be a normal thing. If the deceased was the
only person on the box, then that's a different story.

Here in NJ, a court doesn't normally get involved directly
anyway, nor do you need a lawyer. If the deceased had a
will, the executor can take it to the county surrogates
office, file it, and receive a certificate of executorship.
With that, the executor can close bank accounts, security
accounts, access safe deposit boxes, etc. and then process
it per the terms of the will.

I agree with Ralph, that having a will readily accessible
at home though isn't a bad idea. You can have more than
one copy, one in the safe deposit box, one at home, etc.

I have a POA for Mom, on a bank account, key to the deposit box. We
each have her documents (Living Will I think) as to turn off her life
support. I have a key for the box which is mostly empty now. Other
relatives / survivors on another account she has.

Between us all we can handle her final business, close accounts,
remove ourselves, pay her bills, close her SS & retirement pension
accounts. Collect life insurance, etc.

Any joint account I have with my wife gives her the same power. She
gets the house, etc.

It is still her account even if I die. She can collect benefits from
SS, pension and annuities directed for her.

IMO, is isn't complicated at all.

Point: Many things can happen before a death certificate is issued.
And afterwards, too.

Sounds like you're common sense. And a good son, taking care of Mom. ld
to hear some good people still exist.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 21:53:55 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

micky,

This seems unlikely. Do you have a citation?

Dave M.

No but it's true. By no good, I mean if the payee presents it at
the bank knowing the payer is dead, he's violated some regulation and
proabably a law, and if the bank pays it knowing the payer is dead, it
has violated a regulation, probably a law, and effectively has stolen
from the estate of the dead person.

Even if the bank pays when neither the bank nor the payee knows the
payer is dead, the money can be seized and returned to the estate.

The uncashed check IS evidence of a debt, and it should be presented
to the deceased's estate, to be paid along with its other debts. I
don't know what the priority is for checks, but regardless, there may
not be enough money in the estate to pay the check in full, even if
there was enough in the checking account to fully pay it when it was
written.

On 10/15/2013 9:22 AM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 21:53:55 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

micky,

This seems unlikely. Do you have a citation?

Dave M.

No but it's true. By no good, I mean if the payee presents it at
the bank knowing the payer is dead, he's violated some regulation and
proabably a law, and if the bank pays it knowing the payer is dead, it
has violated a regulation, probably a law, and effectively has stolen
from the estate of the dead person.

Even if the bank pays when neither the bank nor the payee knows the
payer is dead, the money can be seized and returned to the estate.

The uncashed check IS evidence of a debt, and it should be presented
to the deceased's estate, to be paid along with its other debts. I
don't know what the priority is for checks, but regardless, there may
not be enough money in the estate to pay the check in full, even if
there was enough in the checking account to fully pay it when it was
written.

Either provide a legal cite, statute or banking regulation or take this
theory and put it where it belongs... in the toilet.

"Some regulation", "probably a law"? With such specificity you
undoubtedly have a firm grasp of... nothing.

With a non-post dated check, payment has been tendered to the creditor
or payee on the date the check was drawn. It's no different than if the
decedent had paid $300 to Home Depot and then keeled over and died in
the parking lot as he loaded his purchase in the car. Now, if the check
had been written AFTER he died...

Hi John,

I need a small-sized fireproof AND waterproof storage box,
to store some items in the basement of my house.
The items stored will not necessarily be "valuable" in a
dollar-wise sense, but rather things I want to protect from
a home disaster, such as a fire. Pehaps a few "bare" hard
drives, some important papers, etc.
If one goes to an office supply store like Staples, they
carry such a chest by Sentry (#H4100). BUT -- this item gets
some bad reviews for a hinge that is only plastic and breaks
off, plus mildew inside.

I have a small Sentry 1170 fire safe, but we don't store much in it.
These aren't waterproof, so we haven't had any issues with mold growing
inside. "Supposedly" when there is a fire, the lid kind of melts or fuses
to the box sealing it off from heat and water. I hope I never need to
test it.

Also, most fire safes are not rated for "media". In other words, they
keep the contents below 400 degrees or so to prevent paper from catching
fire. However, most media such as video tapes, CD's, or hard drives would
likely be damaged by these temperatures. Media Fire Safes exist, but cost
much more.

Finally, fire safes are rated by the length of time they offer
protection. In other words, they may only protect your valuable papers
for an hour or two before the contents get hot enough to burn. What
happens if your house burns for three hours?

A much better solution than a fire/water safe container is redundancy.
Make copies of everything and store them in more than one location. I use
a safe deposit box at the bank to store my backup hard drive and
passports. However, you could also store your duplicates at a friend or
relatives house, or even in a storage unit.

By having duplicates any one of the single items can be destroyed, but
you can still retrieve one of your backup copies from the other location.
For instance, if your house burns down and falls into the sea, you can
still get to the safe deposit box at the bank. If the bank falls down in
an earthquake, you'll still have your copies at home.

If possible, you should try to select locations that don't share the same
risks. In other words, don't store papers at your neighbors house if
you're both in a flood zone. I live on a hill so I don't have to worry
much about floods. On the other hand, forest fires are a risk here but
the bank downtown doesn't have to worry about that.

For your digital media (hard drives), remember to rotate your drives
routinely. This will prevent the mechanisms from sticking due to unuse,
and will ensure your backups aren't too outdated.

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 04:45:20 -0700, Norminn wrote:

...snip...

Safe deposit boxes at banks are not waterproof; doesn't usually matter
unless the bank is a block from the Gulf of Mexico or somewhere similar.

From personal experience, not very 'safe' either.

Ms. and I inventoried EVERY item that went in, we had a well documented
complete list that we double checked for accuracy. Next time we opened the
box, found several items missing, and unbelievably some substitutions. We
confronted the bank, they claimed impossible. They went through that song
and dance about double keys, etc etc. Being pragmatic here, I said I
didn't care that it was impossible, I cared it happened and told them how
we had inventoried every item, the next time we opened the box, nothing
had changed, hmmmmm. After that experience, I just keep the items
somewhere else. and guess what? nothing ends up missing.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:52:42 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Sounds like you're common sense. And a good son, taking care of Mom. ld
to hear some good people still exist.

Why are your recent replies including stuff about survivalism? They
are over 400 - 500 lines long. Something it up that needs fixin'?

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:41:58 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 10/15/2013 9:22 AM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 21:53:55 -0400, "David L. Martel"
wrote:

micky,

This seems unlikely. Do you have a citation?

Dave M.

No but it's true. By no good, I mean if the payee presents it at
the bank knowing the payer is dead, he's violated some regulation and
proabably a law, and if the bank pays it knowing the payer is dead, it
has violated a regulation, probably a law, and effectively has stolen
from the estate of the dead person.

Even if the bank pays when neither the bank nor the payee knows the
payer is dead, the money can be seized and returned to the estate.

The uncashed check IS evidence of a debt, and it should be presented
to the deceased's estate, to be paid along with its other debts. I
don't know what the priority is for checks, but regardless, there may
not be enough money in the estate to pay the check in full, even if
there was enough in the checking account to fully pay it when it was
written.

Either provide a legal cite, statute or banking regulation or take this
theory and put it where it belongs... in the toilet.

LOL Why should I face a choice like that? I know I'm right, even if
you don't. I've got better things to do than search the web for
citations. You ask your own lawyer.

I've done you a favor by telling you what the law is.

"Some regulation", "probably a law"? With such specificity you
undoubtedly have a firm grasp of... nothing.

An insult, huh! I know 100 times more about it than you do. Why
should I bother keeping track of which law it is, when I know it's
illegal to present a check made by a person who is now dead?

Do you know the statutes against speeding or stealing? No, and unless
you might be about to violate one of them, or already have, you don't
need to know,. It's enough to know that they're illegal.

With a non-post dated check, payment has been tendered to the creditor
or payee on the date the check was drawn.

A tender is not the same as a payment. A payment by check is not
complete, is not made until the check is cashed,

Tendering payment doesn't even mean that the tender was accepted, just
that it was offered, so that also means you are using the wrong word.
For example, a tenant whose lease is expiring tomorrow can tender
another month's payment. If the landlord accepts it, the tenant,
barring other complications, has the right to use the property for
another month. But if the landlord declines the tender, the tender
had no effect.

It's no different than if the
decedent had paid $300 to Home Depot

$300 cash? A check is entirely different from cash. When one pays
cash, the payment has been made. There is no outstanding debt.

A $300 check? That is the same as any other check. ....

and then keeled over and died in
the parking lot as he loaded his purchase in the car.

.....If it isn't cashed before the payer dies, the check may not be
legally negotiated. It should be returned to HD by the bank and HD
should present it to the executor of the estate.

Now, if the check
had been written AFTER he died...

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:55:43 -0700, micky wrote:

...snip...

....If it isn't cashed before the payer dies, the check may not be
legally negotiated. It should be returned to HD by the bank and HD
should present it to the executor of the estate.


For clarity, *if* a check is written October 14th and the guy dies Oct
15th; it is illegal to deposit the check in your account on the 16th for
the bank to process?

What if goods changed hands? What if this is for a service to be delivered
in the future? Does the legality require 'knowledge' of the death? For
example, Unknown to you the guy died, why not deposit the check with
impunity, or is that culpability? Or, his death is known to you and you
quickly deposit the check?

Wow! a lot of if's here. Seems like it's the responsibility of the banking
industry to 'freeze' the deceased's account, return the check, and then
require you to present it to the Executor. All without punishment to you
looming over your head.

From a comment by one of my vendors in CA, He said please do NOT post date
your check, if anything happens to you I have no recourse in trying to
collect a check dated AFTER your death, instead write it today and I give
you my word I will not deposit it until the post date [when given time to
liquidate and move required funds into checking account]. But, then I know
that treads into territory of writing a check on an account WITHOUT
sufficient funds in that account, which, to my understanding, is illegal.
Just NO WAY around trying to do business between two people the way the
state gets involved.

Maybe a 'promisory' note to pay on such-and-such date, eh?

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:38:19 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 04:45:20 -0700, Norminn wrote:

...snip...

Safe deposit boxes at banks are not waterproof; doesn't usually matter
unless the bank is a block from the Gulf of Mexico or somewhere similar.

From personal experience, not very 'safe' either.

Ms. and I inventoried EVERY item that went in, we had a well documented
complete list that we double checked for accuracy. Next time we opened the
box, found several items missing, and unbelievably some substitutions. We
confronted the bank, they claimed impossible. They went through that song

I believe you, not them. There is no reason someone can't make a
copy of the customer key before the customer rents the box. Except
fear of the law or of being fired and a lot of people don't fear those
things much.

I'm sorry this happened to you.


and dance about double keys, etc etc. Being pragmatic here, I said I
didn't care that it was impossible, I cared it happened and told them how
we had inventoried every item, the next time we opened the box, nothing
had changed, hmmmmm. After that experience, I just keep the items
somewhere else. and guess what? nothing ends up missing.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:21:16 -0700, micky wrote:

...snip...
I believe you, not them. There is no reason someone can't make a
copy of the customer key before the customer rents the box. Except
fear of the law or of being fired and a lot of people don't fear those
things much.

I'm sorry this happened to you.


Thank you. Nothing was taken that was significant in value, nor of great
sentimental value. The loss just 'plays' with your brain. You keep trying
to believe them [bank institution] about the security aspect and the
impossiblity of it happening. Keep questioning your own 'sanity' However,
there were TWO of us cross checking this time.

I posited the possibility of a key copy and was told how the person who
goes with you to the box observes that the number matches the requested
box number on the card, so that could not happen. Every scenario had an
answer, so I gave up and later reclaimed all the contents from the box and
stored elsewhere.

About five years later we were watching a film and one of the actors made
the comment something along the line of "Thank God they put it in a safe
deposit box, at least we can get it." Say What?! Do the writers make this
up, or is this based on some reality from somewhere?

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:15:09 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 08:55:43 -0700, micky wrote:

...snip...

....If it isn't cashed before the payer dies, the check may not be
legally negotiated. It should be returned to HD by the bank and HD
should present it to the executor of the estate.


For clarity, *if* a check is written October 14th and the guy dies Oct
15th; it is illegal to deposit the check in your account on the 16th for
the bank to process?

If the depositer knows the guy is dead, it's either a violation of a
law, a regulation, or both. They might have shown mercy and not made
it a violation of law, but I sort of doubt it.

What if goods changed hands?

Too bad, so sad. For the vendor. That's one reason organized
vendors take their checks to the bank for deposit the same day they
get them, not two days later like in your example. That's why they
have night depositories (or used to?)

Of course most people I know have money to pay all their debts, even
after they're dead. So he gets his money late, but he still gets it.

Maybe he could go and take back the merchandise he sold, even though
maybe t hat's illegal. But a big place like HD would be crazy to do
this without checking the legalit y.

I used to fix tv's etc. for a hobby, and I put up flyers at the
college near me, and people in my 49-apt. building knew aobut me.
One guy brought me his cheap (but it still worked when it worked)
receiver-stereo, and said he'd like to get back by Saturday. I said
"Having a party?" No, I just want it back. (No one else ever gave me
even a hoped for time limit.) I actually had it working by then and I
gave it back to him, even though he didnt' have the money. (It was 15
or 20 dollars, not much, even then) I would have had a mechanics lien
on the thing if I had kept it, and I didnt realize at the time that by
giving it to him, I gave up my lien and couldn't get it back, unless
he requested more work on it.

But I was angry after another week went by with no money, so I waited
until he wasn't home and knocked on the door and told his girlfriend I
was going to tix the other thing that was wrong with it (He had
mentioned that there was, but it worked for me.) After a couple
minutes I told her I had to take it to my apartment, and I did. I was
reckless in those days.

My roommate and I waited all evening for him to come demanding his
item. My roommate seemed to want to have a fight, even though he was
sort of skinny. He never showed up, but a day or two later, the
girlfriend saw me on the sidewalk and wanted to know why I had taken
the item. It turns out, she said, he beat her up instead of beating
me up. She called the police. If I had foreseen her getting hurt, I
wouldn't have taken the thing back. That never occurred to me. He
never came for his stereo until 3 or 4 years later. I met him in the
lobby and like a fool, again, said too much, told him that I'd sold it
to get the money he owed me. Then he said he wanted to get it back,
and I realized I shouldn't have said what I did, so I changed the
story entirely and said I still had it. Did he have the money? No he
didn't. So I said no, and he didnt' threaten me, left on his own,
and never came back. But this is the kind of trouble one get\s into
when he (me) doesn't follow the rules.

What if this is for a service to be delivered
in the future? Does the legality require 'knowledge' of the death? For
example, Unknown to you the guy died, why not deposit the check with
impunity, or is that culpability?

Not if you don't know he died.

Or, his death is known to you and you
quickly deposit the check?

Some people would do that, and they may very well get away with it.
Even if the bank is notified quickly of the death (of everyeone who
died the previous day in the area, only a couple of whom will have
accounts at any one bank.) there is bound to be a period of time when
the guy is dead and the bank hasn't been told. (Maybe with computers
this time is shortened, but there are still people who die thousands
of miles away from home, etc.)

I said before that there is a violation of law or regulation by the
payee if he knew the payer on the check was dead, and by the bank if
it knew the payer was dead.

Not otherwise. But even if neither knew, the estate has the right to
reclaim the money paid out. It's not going to do this for $10,
especially if the money went to someone who the estate owed $10 to,
but there are times when this all matters a lot.

(As an aside, there used to be a scam where people read the obituary
page and sent very expensive looking Bibles to the dead person, along
with a statement of money owed, and a letter that made it seem like
the dead person had ordered the Bible before he died. And of course
they wanted 3 times, 10 times?, what even a fancy looking Bible cost.
Who's going to refuse to pay for a BIBLE! when they think their loved
one ordered it. )


Especially for a service in the future. Now that the guy is dead,
maybe no one wants this service anymore. Anyhow, any contract he
signed but

Wow! a lot of if's here.

That's why there is a separate course called Negotiable Instruments,
and why a lawyer should review all the details before giving advice in
a particular situation. And why dummies shouldn't be lawyers. And
why lawyers make mistakes.

Seems like it's the responsibility of the banking
industry to 'freeze' the deceased's account, return the check, and then
require you to present it to the Executor. All without punishment to you
looming over your head.

What they ought to do is teach a high school course in "Law you should
know for successful living" that would teach people that checks are
void after the payer dies; that most deposits are not refundable: that
most contracts can't be cancelled within 3 days, can't be cancelled at
all; the rules for trees or limbs falling on the neighbor's property,
that if the girl is drunk or unconscious, sex with her is rape".
A lot of these things, I get the impression a lot of 18 year olds
know, but I don't know where they learn them. Right now 3 midshipman
at Annapolis are charged with raping a female midshipman who was iirc
said to have been drunk. I used to have a list of about 20 topics
they should cover, but I've forgotten most of my list. Maybe 10
minutes in class per item would be enough to cover most of them, and
of course there could be a textbook too.

I think they did have a course called Commercial Law in my high school
but it wasn't required, not many people took it, and I think it dealt
with commerce, for people who have a business, and not what people
need to know in everyday life,

From a comment by one of my vendors in CA, He said please do NOT post date
your check, if anything happens to you I have no recourse in trying to
collect a check dated AFTER your death,

That would look bad. IANALawyer and this is pretty fact-specific,
but I'm not positive he would never have recourse. First I think if
it the new owner or manager believed you really had signed the check,
I think he could pay. But could the vendor force him to pay. Well,
If your assistant or someone believable heard a conversation where you
said, I have to post date this check because I haven't got enough in
my account now, and maybe it woudl help if the vendor had delivered
the goods already and your business had resold the goods already. Or
if it could be shown that this was a common practice of yours, post
dating checks.

BTW, you are writing personal checks to a vendor? This isn't for
your business then, right? "Vendor" at first made me think it was
commercial. If it were a business check, even for a minimal
corporation, that continues to exist after the president dies, so the
check is still good. I should have said personal check before, but
we were talking about individuals, I guess, so I didn't think to say
that.

instead write it today and I give
you my word I will not deposit it until the post date [when given time to
liquidate and move required funds into checking account]. But, then I know
that treads into territory of writing a check on an account WITHOUT
sufficient funds in that account, which, to my understanding, is illegal.
Just NO WAY around trying to do business between two people the way the
state gets involved.

If the state didn't get involved there would be even more problems.
BTW, a person who writes a post-dated check can't be charged later
with knowingly writing a check with insufficient funds. Because, I
think as a matter of law, there is no way to show that he didn't think
there would be enough money in the account by the date on the check.
Even when no one dies. So if someone accepts a post-dated check,
he's foregone one of the incentives to make the guy pay, after it
bounces. The payer can't be threatened with "writing a check on
insufficient funds".



Maybe a 'promisory' note to pay on such-and-such date, eh?

Signed by a person, not for a corporation? Might have all the same
issues, but I can see again that I would find it tedious to be a
lawyer. Some of them seem to really like it.