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1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Thermal Protection Rating on small electric motors

I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on small
motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new motor back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange for the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he is the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm guessing the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to so I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be knowledgable so I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem. When I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems I will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection changed
over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of original motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class, and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor). Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy


  #2   Report Post  
1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

P.S. I'll try to match Amps exactly on the new motor, but am still
concerned about the "thermal protection ratings".

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
ink.net...
I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on small
motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to

learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new motor

back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange for

the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he is

the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm guessing

the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I

can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to so

I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be knowledgable so

I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem. When

I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from

damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems I

will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new

motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection changed
over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of original motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class, and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor). Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy




  #3   Report Post  
Tony Hwang
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1_Patriotic_Guy wrote:
I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on small
motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new motor back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange for the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he is the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm guessing the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to so I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be knowledgable so I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem. When I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems I will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection changed
over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of original motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class, and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor). Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy


Hi,
Sounds like your motor is running too hot or under rated to do the job.
Thermal protection is when motor gets too hot, the temp. sensing switch
removes power from motor to keep it from burning out. It can happen when
motor is under powered(not enough torque or Hp) or temp. is too high.
Two types of sensors, one self resets when motor cools off, the other
you have to push a button. Are you sure, the pump is OK? Like bearing is
going out or something putting extra drag on the motor?
Tony
Tony
  #4   Report Post  
Chet Hayes
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message link.net...
I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on small
motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new motor back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange for the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he is the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm guessing the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to so I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be knowledgable so I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem. When I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems I will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection changed
over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of original motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class, and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor). Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy


Replacing these motors is not rocket science. The fact that you have
replaced motors and they are not working has nothing to do with
thermal protection, which is a symptom and not the problem. If you
replaced it with the correct HP and speed, which any shop that sells
spa parts should be able to provide, then the motor should work.
There isn't anything particularly unique about these motors, the same
one will fit many spas. Have you checked the voltage on the motor
while it's running to make sure it's getting full voltage? And have
you inspected the pump to make sure it's turning freely and not
binding? Is the water flowing freely without obstruction? Those are
the only things that will cause it to overheat.
  #5   Report Post  
John Grabowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I tend to agree with Chet. The motors should be rated for continuous duty
and would be stated on the nameplate. If they are rated for intermittent
duty, then they are not suited for a spa.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the ampere ratings on a new motor
compared to an older motor. The new motors are more efficient and have less
"Losses" then older motors. As long as FRAME, VOLTAGE, HP, RPM, and DUTY
are the same the motor should operate correctly.

Low voltage or too much of a workload will cause a motor to overheat. Have
you been using the same pump or did you get a new one? I hope that you are
not running the pump while it is dry.

The control box may be your problem. The contacts on the motor relay(s) may
be corroded and causing a lot of resistance to be in the motor feed and
consequently a low voltage condition. Try running the motor directly off of
an extension cord (One rated for the load) and see if it overheats.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Chet Hayes" wrote in message
om...
"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message

link.net...
I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on

small
motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to

learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is

C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If

someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new motor

back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange for

the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he is

the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm guessing

the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I

can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to

so I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be knowledgable

so I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem.

When I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from

damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems I

will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new

motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the

other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me

if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection

changed
over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of original motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll

at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class,

and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor).

Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy


Replacing these motors is not rocket science. The fact that you have
replaced motors and they are not working has nothing to do with
thermal protection, which is a symptom and not the problem. If you
replaced it with the correct HP and speed, which any shop that sells
spa parts should be able to provide, then the motor should work.
There isn't anything particularly unique about these motors, the same
one will fit many spas. Have you checked the voltage on the motor
while it's running to make sure it's getting full voltage? And have
you inspected the pump to make sure it's turning freely and not
binding? Is the water flowing freely without obstruction? Those are
the only things that will cause it to overheat.





  #6   Report Post  
Eric
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1_Patriotic_Guy wrote:

P.S. I'll try to match Amps exactly on the new motor, but am still
concerned about the "thermal protection ratings".

"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message
ink.net...
I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on
small motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to

learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new motor

back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange for

the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he is

the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm guessing

the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I

can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to so

I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be knowledgable
so

I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem. When

I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from

damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems I

will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new

motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection
changed over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of
original motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class, and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor). Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy


No, dont do that. Get a motor with the same HP, Voltage, RPM, Frame and Duty
ratings. Forget about thermal protection ratings and amps. The amps will be
lower on newer more efficient motors, thats a good thing. you dont need to
go find a motor that draws more to match the old one.
As people have been trying to tell you, the problem is in the load on the
motor, the pump or something is loading the motor to heavy.
You're trying to make a simple problem complex - it isnt.
Eric

  #7   Report Post  
1_Patriotic_Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'd love to plug the pump into a standard 110 volt exension cord to try that
but the plug isn't a standard plug (no it's not a 220V plug) but it does
have 4 prongs which match to the outlet on the control box. I can wire the
pump to a standard plug if that is safe? But obviously could only connect
low speed or high, but not both due to being 1 wire short with a standard
plug -- This is why I was asking about how the 2 different speeds are
powered, e.g. is voltage only on the black wire when operating on high -- I
guess I can test this if it is safe to run without water for 30 seconds or
so.
Patiently awaiting a reply,
Andy

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
et...
I tend to agree with Chet. The motors should be rated for continuous duty
and would be stated on the nameplate. If they are rated for intermittent
duty, then they are not suited for a spa.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the ampere ratings on a new motor
compared to an older motor. The new motors are more efficient and have

less
"Losses" then older motors. As long as FRAME, VOLTAGE, HP, RPM, and DUTY
are the same the motor should operate correctly.

Low voltage or too much of a workload will cause a motor to overheat.

Have
you been using the same pump or did you get a new one? I hope that you

are
not running the pump while it is dry.

The control box may be your problem. The contacts on the motor relay(s)

may
be corroded and causing a lot of resistance to be in the motor feed and
consequently a low voltage condition. Try running the motor directly off

of
an extension cord (One rated for the load) and see if it overheats.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Chet Hayes" wrote in message
om...
"1_Patriotic_Guy" wrote in message

link.net...
I appreciate all the help and guidance. These recent answers have

been
clear and easy to understand. Hopefully this is my last question on

small
motors for a while (if not, I'll need more humor, but am willing to

learn).

Can anyone educate me on "Thermal Protection" Rating on electric

motors.
Old motor is "AA", second motor canabalized from a friend's old spa is

C1
(works well on low speed, but overheats in 30 minutes to an hour on

high
speed),
Store recommended and purchased motor is "MA" and overheats even on

low
speed -- not good.

Tony & Ron, you got me to understand Insulation Class, Thanks, If

someone
can educate me on "thermal protection" ratings or point me in the

right
direction to look, I should hopefully know enough to take the new

motor
back
(it appears undamaged, just gets warm after use and shuts itself off,
electrical connections and windings look clean and new) and exchange

for
the
correct motor. The salesman seemed clueless on these ratings and he

is
the
"technical guy" for the store. By process of elimination, I'm

guessing
the
ratings have something to do with why the motors are over-heating. I

can't
find an electric motor repair place in my area to take the motor in to

so I
am at the mercy of the spa store. I'd at least like to be

knowledgable
so I
get the right motor.

The cord and control box are the other common links in the problem.

When I
moved the cord from the original motor to the others I examined it --
Condition look's good. Opened control box, some minor corrosion, from

damp
air over time but not sure what to check in here. Nothing looks badly
damaged, overheated or burned. I did remove a moderate sized cobweb
attached to one electrical component. If the next motor has problems

I
will
have to suspect the control box. It seems easiest to try to get a new

motor
that matches the old on thermal protection (already matched all the

other
specs except minor difference on amps and 3.1 vs 3.5 as I understand

it
shouldn't matter, just means newer motor is more efficient, correct me

if
I'm wrong), but "has the rating terminology for thermal protection

changed
over the last ten to fifteen years" (best guess at age of original

motor
based on info on plate, hard to read). If someone can educate me I'll

at
least know what to look for in the way of thermal protection.

All the motors meet the specs you all explained for Insulation Class,

and
ambient temperature for where used (and match to the old motor).

Thermal
protection code on each is different.

Thanks in advance,
Andy


Replacing these motors is not rocket science. The fact that you have
replaced motors and they are not working has nothing to do with
thermal protection, which is a symptom and not the problem. If you
replaced it with the correct HP and speed, which any shop that sells
spa parts should be able to provide, then the motor should work.
There isn't anything particularly unique about these motors, the same
one will fit many spas. Have you checked the voltage on the motor
while it's running to make sure it's getting full voltage? And have
you inspected the pump to make sure it's turning freely and not
binding? Is the water flowing freely without obstruction? Those are
the only things that will cause it to overheat.





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