Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.

I have a new Burnham ES25 gas hot water boiler with indirect hot water. I have 3 zones for heat plus a 4th zone for indirect hot water. It's a 165000 BTU boiler.
It was installed last November.

Here's my problem. It seems that after not providing heat for a while, if I ask it for heat, it leaks from somewhere under the boiler. It happened twice. Once after I had a problem with the boiler and had no heat for a day (the connector for the flu damper was loose so the boiler wouldn't fire up). And once in the Spring when I thought heating season was over and we had a cold night, so I turned the heat zones back on. Both times, after I turned the heat back on, I noticed a small puddle on the floor near the left front corner of the unit. There was also water underneath, it seems on the left side. But since the right side is near the wall, I couldn't really see if there was water under that side also.

If it was a leak, I would have leaking all the time. The boiler runs 24/7, even during the summer for hot water, and I never see water at all. When it was running constantly all winter, I never saw any water. Just those two times.

What could cause this?

FTR wrote:
Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.

I have a new Burnham ES25 gas hot water boiler with indirect hot
water. I have 3 zones for heat plus a 4th zone for indirect hot
water. It's a 165000 BTU boiler.
It was installed last November.

Here's my problem. It seems that after not providing heat for a
while, if I ask it for heat, it leaks from somewhere under the
boiler. It happened twice. Once after I had a problem with the
boiler and had no heat for a day (the connector for the flu damper
was loose so the boiler wouldn't fire up). And once in the Spring
when I thought heating season was over and we had a cold night, so I
turned the heat zones back on. Both times, after I turned the heat
back on, I noticed a small puddle on the floor near the left front
corner of the unit. There was also water underneath, it seems on the
left side. But since the right side is near the wall, I couldn't
really see if there was water under that side also.

If it was a leak, I would have leaking all the time. The boiler runs
24/7, even during the summer for hot water, and I never see water at
all. When it was running constantly all winter, I never saw any
water. Just those two times.

What could cause this?

Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?

On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:07:39 AM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
FTR wrote:

Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.



I have a new Burnham ES25 gas hot water boiler with indirect hot

water. I have 3 zones for heat plus a 4th zone for indirect hot

water. It's a 165000 BTU boiler.

It was installed last November.



Here's my problem. It seems that after not providing heat for a

while, if I ask it for heat, it leaks from somewhere under the

boiler. It happened twice. Once after I had a problem with the

boiler and had no heat for a day (the connector for the flu damper

was loose so the boiler wouldn't fire up). And once in the Spring

when I thought heating season was over and we had a cold night, so I

turned the heat zones back on. Both times, after I turned the heat

back on, I noticed a small puddle on the floor near the left front

corner of the unit. There was also water underneath, it seems on the

left side. But since the right side is near the wall, I couldn't

really see if there was water under that side also.



If it was a leak, I would have leaking all the time. The boiler runs

24/7, even during the summer for hot water, and I never see water at

all. When it was running constantly all winter, I never saw any

water. Just those two times.



What could cause this?



Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?

But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the time to feed the indirect hot water tank.

I agree with BobF. It's condensation.

When you burn any hydrocarbon, the products of combustion are CO2 and H2O. If that H2O water vapour condenses on a relatively cool surface, you have liquid water.

To prove it's condensation and not a leak, leave a shallow pan under the boiler to collect a sample of it and taste it. It will taste funny, like soda water. That's because when CO2 dissolves in H2O, some of those CO2 molecules actually react with the H2O to form an unstable compound called "carbonic acid", CH2O3, which is what gives carbonated soft drinks like Orange Crush their "bite".

Because of the huge amount of CO2 dissolved in that condensate, it will taste acidic; similar to Soda Water, which is just highly carbonated water with no flavour added. But, be aware that the CO2 will gradually come out of solution, and as it does the condensate will taste progressively less and less acidic; just like carbonated beverages go flat if you let them sit long enough for the CO2 to come out of solution.

I'm thinking that if you left a disposable aluminum pie plate under the boiler, the acidity of the condensate would etch the aluminum so that you could compare it to an aluminum pie plate which just had tap water in it. That would confirm the water is condensate; and not a leak.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 21:17:14 -0700 (PDT), FTR
wrote:




Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?

But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the time to feed the indirect hot water tank.

It never shuts down? Never? My boiler is set up the same way. When
running for just hot water, it may run once a day when we are taking
showers or the dishwasher is running. Otherwise, nothing. It can
easily go 24 to 36 hours with no flame.

Depending on your setup, it can cool down in the evening now if
windows are open, cold air coming down the chimney, etc.

On 10/4/2013 12:07 AM, Bob F wrote:
FTR wrote:
Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.

I have a new Burnham ES25 gas hot water boiler with indirect hot
water. I have 3 zones for heat plus a 4th zone for indirect hot
water. It's a 165000 BTU boiler.
It was installed last November.

Here's my problem. It seems that after not providing heat for a
while, if I ask it for heat, it leaks from somewhere under the
boiler. It happened twice. Once after I had a problem with the
boiler and had no heat for a day (the connector for the flu damper
was loose so the boiler wouldn't fire up). And once in the Spring
when I thought heating season was over and we had a cold night, so I
turned the heat zones back on. Both times, after I turned the heat
back on, I noticed a small puddle on the floor near the left front
corner of the unit. There was also water underneath, it seems on the
left side. But since the right side is near the wall, I couldn't
really see if there was water under that side also.

If it was a leak, I would have leaking all the time. The boiler runs
24/7, even during the summer for hot water, and I never see water at
all. When it was running constantly all winter, I never saw any
water. Just those two times.

What could cause this?

Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?


Cold boiler, the water contracts and fills a bit more. Put the heat on,
the water expands and comes out the relief valve.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/4/2013 12:17 AM, FTR wrote:
24/7, even during the summer for hot water, and I never see water at

all. When it was running constantly all winter, I never saw any

water. Just those two times.



What could cause this?



Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?

But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the time to feed the indirect hot water tank.

Oh, that changes everything!


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT), FTR
wrote:

Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.

I have a new Burnham

New enough to be under warranty?

What could cause this?

Crack some place that leaks when cold and is closed when heat makes
the metal expand? Just a guess. I have never had a boiler.

It doesn't actually run all the time. My point is that I don't shut it down for the summer. If it was a condensation issue, wouldn't it happen every time the boiler runs, even for hot water?

Or is something different when calling for heat that could make it happen only then, but not when calling for just hot water?

On Friday, October 4, 2013 5:52:32 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 21:17:14 -0700 (PDT), FTR
Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?



But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the time to feed the indirect hot water tank.



It never shuts down? Never? My boiler is set up the same way. When

running for just hot water, it may run once a day when we are taking

showers or the dishwasher is running. Otherwise, nothing. It can

easily go 24 to 36 hours with no flame.



Depending on your setup, it can cool down in the evening now if

windows are open, cold air coming down the chimney, etc.

On Friday, October 4, 2013 7:09:45 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT), FTR

wrote:



Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.



I have a new Burnham



New enough to be under warranty?



What could cause this?



Crack some place that leaks when cold and is closed when heat makes

the metal expand? Just a guess. I have never had a boiler.

Or a connection, seal, etc. When it's cold it contracts enough
so that when re-started it leaks. Warmed up, it expands and the
leak diminishes.

On 10/4/2013 9:27 AM, FTR wrote:
It doesn't actually run all the time. My point is that I don't shut it down for the summer. If it was a condensation issue, wouldn't it happen every time the boiler runs, even for hot water?

Or is something different when calling for heat that could make it happen only then, but not when calling for just hot water?


In the winter, burners can run every half hour or so depending on the
load. In summer, it may not be "shut down", but will only run when hot
water is needed. It could be many hours between uses. In Arizona, it
may not matter, but here in CT, right now it can get downright chilly at
night and the heat comes on after a 16 hour rest and is very chilly.
Gas does contain a lot of water vapor and it can easily condense when
starting up.

Can't say for sure that is what you see, but it is a possibility.

On Friday, October 4, 2013 1:37:45 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/4/2013 9:27 AM, FTR wrote:

It doesn't actually run all the time. My point is that I don't shut it down for the summer. If it was a condensation issue, wouldn't it happen every time the boiler runs, even for hot water?



Or is something different when calling for heat that could make it happen only then, but not when calling for just hot water?





In the winter, burners can run every half hour or so depending on the

load. In summer, it may not be "shut down", but will only run when hot

water is needed. It could be many hours between uses. In Arizona, it

may not matter, but here in CT, right now it can get downright chilly at

night and the heat comes on after a 16 hour rest and is very chilly.

Gas does contain a lot of water vapor and it can easily condense when

starting up.



Can't say for sure that is what you see, but it is a possibility.

So if it is condensation, is there a fix for it?

Yes, it's under warranty.

The plumber who installed it is having a chimney guy come to look.
He thinks the flu may be partially blocked and that would condensation.

But my question is: if there is a (partial) blockage, wouldn't the boiler not fire up at all? Aren't there safety controls that prevent that, because of the danger of CO build-up?

On Friday, October 4, 2013 7:09:45 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT), FTR

FTR wrote:



Hi. I hope someone can give me a clue what might be going on.



I have a new Burnham



New enough to be under warranty?



What could cause this?



Crack some place that leaks when cold and is closed when heat makes

the metal expand? Just a guess. I have never had a boiler.

On 10/4/2013 9:27 AM, FTR wrote:

But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the
time to feed the indirect hot water tank.


It doesn't actually run all the time. My point is
that I don't shut it down for the summer. If it was
a condensation issue, wouldn't it happen every time
the boiler runs, even for hot water?

Or is something different when calling for heat that
could make it happen only then, but not when calling
for just hot water?


OK, so which is it?


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

What I meant it that it is on all the time, to provide hot water all year round and heat when it's cold. So during the summer, though it's on, it probably doesn't fire up that often, depending on hot water usage. During the winter, it's firing up all the time.

I haven't yet turned on the heat, but I expect to see a puddle on the floor the first time I put the heat on.

On Friday, October 4, 2013 2:46:31 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/4/2013 9:27 AM, FTR wrote:



But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the

time to feed the indirect hot water tank.





It doesn't actually run all the time. My point is

that I don't shut it down for the summer. If it was

a condensation issue, wouldn't it happen every time

the boiler runs, even for hot water?



Or is something different when calling for heat that

could make it happen only then, but not when calling

for just hot water?





OK, so which is it?





.

Christopher A. Young

Learn about Jesus

www.lds.org

.

On Fri, 4 Oct 2013 06:27:44 -0700 (PDT), FTR
wrote:

It doesn't actually run all the time. My point is that I don't shut it down for the summer.

Big difference. No offense meant but, like many other posters, you
should learn to say what you mean.

Especially on Usenet where people will put a lot of energy into
answering, but when they find out the situation is different, 50 to 90
percent don't feel like answering again, at all. They're worn out or
annoyed or something. I've learned this directly when I've fouled up
my own first question, and in several groups, the reaction is the
same. It's often too late to get anyone interested again.


If it was a condensation issue, wouldn't it happen every time the boiler runs, even for hot water?

I'm sufferering now from the very fatigue I describe above, so my
answer is, Who knows? Things like this are complicated.

I think that would be my answer even on the first go 'round, but I
might come up with experiments you could run to try to find out. Now
I can't think of any. NEXXXXT!!

Or is something different when calling for heat that could make it happen only then, but not when calling for just hot water?

On Friday, October 4, 2013 5:52:32 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 21:17:14 -0700 (PDT), FTR
Condensation from the flame hitting a cold boiler?



But the boiler shouldn't be cold. It runs all the time to feed the indirect hot water tank.



It never shuts down? Never? My boiler is set up the same way. When

running for just hot water, it may run once a day when we are taking

showers or the dishwasher is running. Otherwise, nothing. It can

easily go 24 to 36 hours with no flame.



Depending on your setup, it can cool down in the evening now if

windows are open, cold air coming down the chimney, etc.

On 10/4/2013 2:15 PM, FTR wrote:



Can't say for sure that is what you see, but it is a possibility.

So if it is condensation, is there a fix for it?


It will probably stop when conditions change.

Couple of questions. How old is the boiler? Has this happened in the
past? If so, has it stopped doing the winter when heat runs frequently?
Can you post a photo someplace?

There should be two safety controls on your boiler. One will be mounted on the flue hood above the boiler to detect flue gas spilling out the bottom of that hood. The other will be mounted near the bottom of the boiler to detect unburned gas spilling out the bottom of the boiler. If either of those safety devices detects a problem, it will not allow power to pass through it, and that prevents power from getting to the gas valve on your boiler so that the boiler shuts down.

I expect that if you have a partial blockage of your chimney, then you would get flue gas spillage out the bottom of the flue hood over the boiler. But, it's possible that even with a partially blocked chimney, your chimney could still draft sufficiently well to draw all the flue gas up and out the chimney.

Typically, the flue vent from your boiler won't connect to the bottom of the chimney. Instead, it will connect to the chimney a few feet above the bottom of the chimney. That's done so that leaves and brick mortar and dirt and stuff that falls into the chimney DOESN'T fall into your boiler and cause a potential blockage. All of that stuff will fall past the point at which the flue vent connects to the chimney and accumulate at the bottom of the chimney. If you look under the point on the wall where the flue vent from your boiler connects to the chimney, you should see a clean out plate. Removal of that clean out plate allows you access to the very bottom of the chimney so that you can clean out anything that has accumulated there.

The way inspectors check the condition of brick chimneys is by the amount of sand that's accumulated at the bottom of the chimney. Since flue gas condensate is corrosive, it tends to dissolve the lime and cement in the brick mortar, leaving only the sand behind. That sand collects at the bottom of the chimney, so the more sand you see at the bottom, the more deteriorated the mortar joints in the chimney are. (note that many brick chimneys use rectangular clay tiles inside them so there won't be any mortar deterioration and no sand at the bottom of the chimney)

The way inspectors check for a partially blocked chimney is by sticking a hand held mirror into the clean out at the bottom of the chimney. They hold the mirror at a 45 degree angle so they can look up the chimney. If they see "a light at the end of the tunnel", that's the daylight they're seeing, and if the light is square or round or rectangular like the chimney is, then they know the chimney is clear and unobstructed.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:33:20 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 10/4/2013 2:15 PM, FTR wrote:



Can't say for sure that is what you see, but it is a possibility.

So if it is condensation, is there a fix for it?

If it's really condensation, why does it matter.

If it's condensation, won't there be a spot above the puddle that is
wet AND cold?** Is there another kind of condensation that doesn't
require the surface condensed on to be cold?

**Unless the cold spot is hidden away and after it condenses it runs
down the side to the point where it drips, and by that time the wet
spot is warm.


It will probably stop when conditions change.

Couple of questions. How old is the boiler? Has this happened in the
past? If so, has it stopped doing the winter when heat runs frequently?
Can you post a photo someplace?