Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is
why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's
televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are
alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an
electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,
and how to use them safely.

Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician, and sat down with me to talk
about how to choose the best surge protectors for your gadgets, and
how to avoid accidents, electrical fires, and other dangerous
situations when using them. Here's what you need to know.

Understand the Difference Between a Power Strip and a Surge Protector

How to Choose, Buy, and Safely Use a Good Surge Protector

First of all, not every power strip is a surge protector. It may sound
basic, but it's a fundamental piece of knowledge you'll need. While a
power strip just splits your outlet into multiple ports, a surge
protector is designed to protect your computer, TV, and other
electronics against power surges and any interference or noise on your
power line. Power surges may not be an everyday event, but they're
common enough that they can damage your equipment. Charles notes:

The main thing for people to pay attention too is that they are in
fact buying a "surge protector" and not a power strip. A consumer
should look for the words surge protection, fused strip, or
interrupter switch. If it says power strip on it it most likely does
not offer surge protection, so pay attention.

You'll almost certainly pay more for a surge protector than a power
strip, but it's worth it. If you're the type to head over to Amazon
and just buy whatever's cheapest, keep this in mind. Don't assume that
because it's in the same category as surge protectors, or even in the
department store hanging next to the surge protectors that it is one.
Choose the Right Surge Protector for Your Needs

How to Choose, Buy, and Safely Use a Good Surge Protector

There are five major points to consider when buying a surge protector.
They a

Buy the right number of ports. Don't just assume that every surge
protector is six or eight ports. Some of them, like one of my
favorites, sport 12 ports, well spaced so you can use them all. Buying
the right number of ports will make sure you don't have to daisy chain
surge protectors—something we'll get to in a moment.
Consider the gear you'll plug into the surge protector. Think
about the things you're going to plug into the surge protector you're
buying. You can just go all out and buy the best you can afford, but
you'll save some money by buying a surge protector appropriate for the
equipment you'll use it with. Your TV and home entertainment center
will call for a more robust surge protector than the lamp and phone
charger on your nightstand, for example.
Check for the UL seal, and make sure it's a "transient voltage
surge suppressor." Making sure that the surge protector you're
planning to buy is both certified by Underwriter's Laboratories, and
at least meets their UL 1449 standards (required for the label
"transient voltage surge suppressor,") will make sure the surge
protector you take home will actually protect the equipment you plug
into it.
Check the surge protector's energy absorption rating, and its
"clamping voltage." The absorption rating is, as the name implies, how
much energy it can absorb before it fails. You'll want something at
least 6-700 joules or higher. (Higher is better here.) The clamping
voltage is the voltage that will trigger the surge protector—or
essentially when the surge protector wakes up and starts absorbing
energy. Look for something around 400 V or less. Lower is better here.
Finally, see if response time is listed in the product details—it's
good to know, and lower is better.
Check the warranty. Some surge protectors warranty the devices
connected to it for some amount of damages if a power surge does get
through. Check to see what's covered (and what isn't), and how you can
file a warranty claim if the surge protector fails.

Belkin Pivot-Plug Surge Protector

Amazon.com: $24.84

Bottom line: Make sure you're informed before you buy, and read the
back of the box or the product details before you buy anything. You
don't want to invest in a surge protector only to find out that it's
far too weak to protect your devices, or it's a surge protector in
name only. Charles notes that price shouldn't guide your decision,
either:

As far as cost, the most expensive is not always the best. The
best thing to do is figure out what you need to protect and buy
accordingly.

Related
Conserve Surge Protector Saves Energy, Money

Belkin's Conserve Surge Protector with timer knocks out the energy
drain from vampire devices that draw standby power even when they're…
Read…

You might also want to look into other features, like a surge
protector that automatically turn off when your devices turn off or
stop charging, or has a remote control that you can use to turn it on
or off along with the devices on them. The idea is especially good for
surge protectors connected to things that like to live in standby
mode, like game consoles and some TVs, and the remote control options
are great for surge protectors that are hard to get to.
Don't Daisy Chain Multiple Surge Protectors

How to Choose, Buy, and Safely Use a Good Surge Protector

Odds are you've daisy chained, or plugged a power strip into another
power strip or surge protector, when you were desperate for more
outlets. It's tempting, and it's easy, but it's also dangerous.
Charles explains:

As far as daisy chaining surge protectors, it doesn't work. The
first strip will trip if a second is plugged into it and used. In
theory power strips can be daisy chained since they lack surge
protection, however I would severely advise against it.

Remember in "A Christmas Story," when they had all those cords
plugged in at once and it blew a fuse? Yeah, it's kind of like that
except that overloading the circuit can create the source of ignition
for an electrical fire.

So resist the urge to daisy chain your power strips, or plug a bunch
of power strips into a surge protector. It may be tempting, and you
may look at it from a "eh, it can't hurt if I just do it once"
perspective, but whenever you do it you're taking a risk that you need
to be clear-headed about when you do it. Frankly, we think it's not
worth it when you can buy a surge protector with more ports—or another
surge protector you can put next to your existing one—for a couple of
dollars.

For more reading, check out this Home Depot guide to surge protectors,
which includes not just surge protector strips like we've discussed,
but also whole-home surge protectors you can have installed and more
details on UL certifications for surge protectors. Similarly, this
guide from Tripplite will help you pick a good surge protector for
your needs (although remember Tripplite sells them, so they have a
vested interest). A little forethought, research, and safe practices
will go a long way towards making sure your gadgets are safe from
harm—and that you're not fumbling around behind your gear looking for
spare outlets.

Charles Ravenscraft is a certified union electrician. He graciously
volunteered his expertise for this post, and we thank him.

Photos by Daniel R.Blume, Al Pavangkanan, Joy Mystic, and State Farm.

http://lifehacker.com/your-homes-ele...rou-1409892102

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Understand the Difference Between a Power Strip and a Surge Protector

See my recent threads (two) on surge protectors: HVAC disconnect and
whole house (breaker in the electric panel).

There is one poster to not follow for trust. He said something about a
direct ground to earth that was not applicable in my case.

On Friday, September 27, 2013 7:29:44 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer

wrote:



Understand the Difference Between a Power Strip and a Surge Protector



See my recent threads (two) on surge protectors: HVAC disconnect and

whole house (breaker in the electric panel).



There is one poster to not follow for trust. He said something about a

direct ground to earth that was not applicable in my case.


I'm sure we'll be hearing from him shortly.

There is a lot of bait in that post just waiting for
him. IMO, it's not a very good article either. It misses
important points like buying a surge protector with
cable tv, Ethernet, phone ports in addition to AC outlets
for appliances that use more than just AC so everything
passes through it.

The daisy chaining part I've never heard before. This
guy is claiming that if you plug one surge protector
into another, the first one will trip? First, what's to
trip? The ones I've had, they jut have an on/off switch.
The MOVs inside just sit across the lines, shunting anything
over 400V, etc. So, what is there to trip? And even if
there was, I don't see why plugging one into another
would cause them to not operate correctly.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 16:58:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2013 7:29:44 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer

wrote:



Understand the Difference Between a Power Strip and a Surge Protector



See my recent threads (two) on surge protectors: HVAC disconnect and

whole house (breaker in the electric panel).



There is one poster to not follow for trust. He said something about a

direct ground to earth that was not applicable in my case.


I'm sure we'll be hearing from him shortly.


Let the beatings commence - AGAIN.

There is a lot of bait in that post just waiting for
him. IMO, it's not a very good article either. It misses
important points like buying a surge protector with
cable tv, Ethernet, phone ports in addition to AC outlets
for appliances that use more than just AC so everything
passes through it.

snipped

Ya'll could talk about air planes (LOL)

On 9/27/2013 3:51 PM, Metspitzer wrote:


As far as daisy chaining surge protectors, it doesn't work. The
first strip will trip if a second is plugged into it and used.

I'd like to hear more about the mechanism that makes this happen...

On 9/27/2013 4:51 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is
why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's
televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are
alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an
electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,
and how to use them safely.

Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician, and sat down with me to talk
about how to choose the best surge protectors for your gadgets, and
how to avoid accidents, electrical fires, and other dangerous
situations when using them. Here's what you need to know.

Understand the Difference Between a Power Strip and a Surge Protector

How to Choose, Buy, and Safely Use a Good Surge Protector

First of all, not every power strip is a surge protector. It may sound
basic, but it's a fundamental piece of knowledge you'll need. While a
power strip just splits your outlet into multiple ports, a surge
protector is designed to protect your computer, TV, and other
electronics against power surges and any interference or noise on your
power line.

I haven't figured out how noise filters actually do anything useful.

Power surges may not be an everyday event, but they're
common enough that they can damage your equipment. Charles notes:

The main thing for people to pay attention too is that they are in
fact buying a "surge protector" and not a power strip. A consumer
should look for the words surge protection, fused strip, or
interrupter switch. If it says power strip on it it most likely does
not offer surge protection, so pay attention.

You'll almost certainly pay more for a surge protector than a power
strip, but it's worth it. If you're the type to head over to Amazon
and just buy whatever's cheapest, keep this in mind. Don't assume that
because it's in the same category as surge protectors, or even in the
department store hanging next to the surge protectors that it is one.
Choose the Right Surge Protector for Your Needs

How to Choose, Buy, and Safely Use a Good Surge Protector

There are five major points to consider when buying a surge protector.
They a

Buy the right number of ports. Don't just assume that every surge
protector is six or eight ports. Some of them, like one of my
favorites, sport 12 ports, well spaced so you can use them all. Buying
the right number of ports will make sure you don't have to daisy chain
surge protectors—something we'll get to in a moment.

A multiport protector is likely to refer to connections where coax and
phone can wire through the protector.

You should get a protector with enough outlet for what you want to
plug-in, and space around the outlet is need if you are plugging in wall
warts.

Consider the gear you'll plug into the surge protector. Think
about the things you're going to plug into the surge protector you're
buying. You can just go all out and buy the best you can afford, but
you'll save some money by buying a surge protector appropriate for the
equipment you'll use it with. Your TV and home entertainment center
will call for a more robust surge protector than the lamp and phone
charger on your nightstand, for example.

People use surge protectors for lamps?
I wouldn't use one for a phone charger either unless it was real easy to
use a protector that was around for more important equipment.
And if a load merits a surge protector why would some of them require
significantly less protection?

Check for the UL seal, and make sure it's a "transient voltage
surge suppressor." Making sure that the surge protector you're
planning to buy is both certified by Underwriter's Laboratories, and
at least meets their UL 1449 standards (required for the label
"transient voltage surge suppressor,") will make sure the surge
protector you take home will actually protect the equipment you plug
into it.

Actually UL "lists" equipment. It doesn't "certify".

Check the surge protector's energy absorption rating, and its
"clamping voltage." The absorption rating is, as the name implies, how
much energy it can absorb before it fails. You'll want something at
least 6-700 joules or higher. (Higher is better here.) The clamping
voltage is the voltage that will trigger the surge protector—or
essentially when the surge protector wakes up and starts absorbing
energy. Look for something around 400 V or less. Lower is better here.

330V is the lowest that is in the UL1449 listing standard. And lower is
not necessarily better.

Finally, see if response time is listed in the product details—it's
good to know, and lower is better.

Virtually all plug-in protectors use MOVs. MOVs are fast enough for any
surge. Response time is meaningless.

Check the warranty. Some surge protectors warranty the devices
connected to it for some amount of damages if a power surge does get
through. Check to see what's covered (and what isn't), and how you can
file a warranty claim if the surge protector fails.

Better be a major brand if you expect to use a warranty.

I would only buy a protector with a major brand name anyway.


Belkin Pivot-Plug Surge Protector
Amazon.com: $24.84

No idea what this is about.


Bottom line: Make sure you're informed before you buy, and read the
back of the box or the product details before you buy anything. You
don't want to invest in a surge protector only to find out that it's
far too weak to protect your devices, or it's a surge protector in
name only.

"In name only"?

If UL1449 listed at least a protector provides enough protection to
survive the surges included in the UL testing.

Charles notes that price shouldn't guide your decision,
either:

As far as cost, the most expensive is not always the best. The
best thing to do is figure out what you need to protect and buy
accordingly.

Related
Conserve Surge Protector Saves Energy, Money

Belkin's Conserve Surge Protector with timer knocks out the energy
drain from vampire devices that draw standby power even when they're…
Read…

I can't think of many places where some of these fancy expensive
features would be useful.

The protector for my computer and related stuff is accessible and I turn
it off.

If I turn the protector for my big TV and related stuff off, various
stuff loses programing.


You might also want to look into other features, like a surge
protector that automatically turn off when your devices turn off or
stop charging, or has a remote control that you can use to turn it on
or off along with the devices on them. The idea is especially good for
surge protectors connected to things that like to live in standby
mode, like game consoles and some TVs, and the remote control options
are great for surge protectors that are hard to get to.
Don't Daisy Chain Multiple Surge Protectors

Actually I agree with this.


How to Choose, Buy, and Safely Use a Good Surge Protector

Odds are you've daisy chained, or plugged a power strip into another
power strip or surge protector, when you were desperate for more
outlets. It's tempting, and it's easy, but it's also dangerous.
Charles explains:

As far as daisy chaining surge protectors, it doesn't work. The
first strip will trip if a second is plugged into it and used.

I agree with mike and trader that this is idiocy.

In
theory power strips can be daisy chained since they lack surge
protection, however I would severely advise against it.

It is actually a violation of UL listing to daisy chain power strips,
including surge protectors.


Remember in "A Christmas Story," when they had all those cords
plugged in at once and it blew a fuse? Yeah, it's kind of like that
except that overloading the circuit can create the source of ignition
for an electrical fire.

I suspect that is why UL doesn't want power strips daisy chained, but
with minimal intelligence overloading can be avoided.


So resist the urge to daisy chain your power strips, or plug a bunch
of power strips into a surge protector. It may be tempting, and you
may look at it from a "eh, it can't hurt if I just do it once"
perspective, but whenever you do it you're taking a risk that you need
to be clear-headed about when you do it. Frankly, we think it's not
worth it when you can buy a surge protector with more ports—or another
surge protector you can put next to your existing one—for a couple of
dollars.

Totally missing, as trader noted, and of major importance:
All interconnected equipment must be plugged into the same protector.
All external connections, including phone and cable, _must_ go through
the protector.

Any competent manufacturer will tell you the same thing. If you don't
observe that restriction you may well be better off not using a surge
protector.


For more reading, check out this Home Depot guide to surge protectors,
which includes not just surge protector strips like we've discussed,
but also whole-home surge protectors you can have installed and more
details on UL certifications for surge protectors. Similarly, this
guide from Tripplite will help you pick a good surge protector for
your needs (although remember Tripplite sells them, so they have a
vested interest). A little forethought, research, and safe practices
will go a long way towards making sure your gadgets are safe from
harm—and that you're not fumbling around behind your gear looking for
spare outlets.

Charles Ravenscraft is a certified union electrician. He graciously
volunteered his expertise for this post, and we thank him.

Electricians, union or otherwise, are not necessarily experts on surge
protection.

This one missed one of the most important points - all external
connections must go through the protector. The electrician on This Old
House, in a recent thread, missed the same thing.


Photos by Daniel R.Blume, Al Pavangkanan, Joy Mystic, and State Farm.

http://lifehacker.com/your-homes-ele...rou-1409892102

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is
why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's
televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are
alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an
electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,
and how to use them safely.

Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician,

Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?
Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.

My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody
nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you
from something that basically none of you have to worry about.

There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one
of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all
nonsense as far as anyone really needing them. The transient spikes
are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6
feet. So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad
grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the
same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps
to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally
starting, you are chasing a mirage. About the only thing you might
need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little
surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.

I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 22:12:47 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:



Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician,

Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?
Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.
I'd think that some may know, others not. It is not something you
study in "How to Wire a Receptacle" but like any trade, some study
deeper.





There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one
of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all
nonsense as far as anyone really needing them. The transient spikes
are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6
feet.

Then I need one for my computer. It is less than 3 feet from the main
coming into the house and the panel. Actually, I use a battery backup
that also protects me from little glitches too.





I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

Had one of those too. Nothing happened to my computer, but I did have
to scrap my TV and buy a 47" flat screen. Also had to pick up pieces
of the blown apart receptacle where it came into the detached garage
and then into the house. Lost the TV, Receiver, doorbell, circuit
breaker.

On 9/28/2013 11:12 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400,
wrote:

Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is
why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's
televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are
alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an
electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,
and how to use them safely.

Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician,

Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?
Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.

My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody
nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you
from something that basically none of you have to worry about.

There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one
of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all
nonsense as far as anyone really needing them. The transient spikes
are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6
feet. So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad
grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the
same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps
to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally
starting, you are chasing a mirage. About the only thing you might
need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little
surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.

You are talking about surges that originate inside the house. I agree
they are not a problem. The 2 sources I often post, from the IEEE and
NIST, do not include surges originating inside the house as a problem. I
don't remember that competent manufacturers talk about surges
originating inside a house.

Lightning, however, can be a problem. So can a number of normal and
abnormal power utility events.

As I have often written, a plug-in protector with good ratings and
connected correctly is very likely to protect from a very near very
strong lightning strike.

A protector at the service panel is very likely to protect anything
connected only to power wiring from a very near very strong lightning
strike.

The IEEE and NIST surge guides are to give you information to protect
from lightning strikes.


I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

In your opinion.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 08:38:56 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 9/28/2013 11:12 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400,
wrote:

Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is
why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's
televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are
alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an
electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,
and how to use them safely.

Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician,

Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?
Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.

My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody
nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you
from something that basically none of you have to worry about.

There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one
of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all
nonsense as far as anyone really needing them. The transient spikes
are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6
feet. So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad
grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the
same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps
to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally
starting, you are chasing a mirage. About the only thing you might
need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little
surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.

You are talking about surges that originate inside the house. I agree
they are not a problem. The 2 sources I often post, from the IEEE and
NIST, do not include surges originating inside the house as a problem. I
don't remember that competent manufacturers talk about surges
originating inside a house.

Lightning, however, can be a problem. So can a number of normal and
abnormal power utility events.

As I have often written, a plug-in protector with good ratings and
connected correctly is very likely to protect from a very near very
strong lightning strike.

A protector at the service panel is very likely to protect anything
connected only to power wiring from a very near very strong lightning
strike.

The IEEE and NIST surge guides are to give you information to protect
from lightning strikes.


I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

In your opinion.


Absolutely IMHO. The surges from outside the house are even less of a
problem because typically you've got dozens of feet of wire between
where your service entrance is and where the wire to it connects to
"the mains". And people in areas where the "grid" is buried
underground have even less need to worry about "surges".

On 9/29/2013 8:28 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 08:38:56 -0600, wrote:

On 9/28/2013 11:12 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400,
wrote:

Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is
why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's
televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are
alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an
electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,
and how to use them safely.

Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's
brother) is a licensed union electrician,

Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?
Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.

My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody
nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you
from something that basically none of you have to worry about.

There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one
of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all
nonsense as far as anyone really needing them. The transient spikes
are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6
feet. So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad
grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the
same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps
to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally
starting, you are chasing a mirage. About the only thing you might
need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little
surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.

You are talking about surges that originate inside the house. I agree
they are not a problem. The 2 sources I often post, from the IEEE and
NIST, do not include surges originating inside the house as a problem. I
don't remember that competent manufacturers talk about surges
originating inside a house.

Lightning, however, can be a problem. So can a number of normal and
abnormal power utility events.

As I have often written, a plug-in protector with good ratings and
connected correctly is very likely to protect from a very near very
strong lightning strike.

A protector at the service panel is very likely to protect anything
connected only to power wiring from a very near very strong lightning
strike.

The IEEE and NIST surge guides are to give you information to protect
from lightning strikes.


I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

In your opinion.


Absolutely IMHO. The surges from outside the house are even less of a
problem because typically you've got dozens of feet of wire between
where your service entrance is and where the wire to it connects to
"the mains". And people in areas where the "grid" is buried
underground have even less need to worry about "surges".

Lightning strikes are basically current sources. Strong surges can cause
arc-over at a service panel - about 6,000V. "Dozens of feet of wire"
give no protection.

What "dozens of feet" may refer to is that a relatively short length of
wire will significantly lower the "rise time" of a very fast surge,
which could affect the "response time" for a protector. But MOVs are
fast enough for surges.

Perhaps you could read the NIST surge guide. You might learn something.

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

The computer club guy was discussing protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Plugin types that costs dollars to make while selling for tens or 100 dollars. He is right about best protection damped out in the first six feet. But only if a completely different device (also misleadingly called a surge protector) exists there.

One incoming wire already connects to earth. So a destructive surge is damped out in the first feet. Other AC wires are only earthed if a 'whole house' protector makes that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. Only then are surges made completely irrelevant in the first feet. If that completely different device ('whole house' protector) does not exist, then surges are inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. In your case, apparently once in thirty years. Those cheap power strips did exactly what they claim - no protection from destructive surges. Why do so many recommend replacing power strip protectors every couple years? Because advertising says so. Most who recommend plug-in protectors are educated by advertising.. And not by hard facts.

Daily surges that so many fear are only noise - made completely irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance - even dimmer switches. Effective protection means destructive surges (even direct lightning strikes) are damped out when connection low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth.

Routine is protection from direct lightning strikes when a protector connects low impedance to earth. And the numbers that say so. Direct lightning strikes are typically about 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because unlike power strips, one 'whole house' protector is protection for all types of surges including direct lightning strikes.

"No surge protector would have stopped that motha". Correct. Any protector that stops, blocks, or absorbs a surge is a scam. Why is a 'whole house' protector so effective? It works like a wire. It connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth outside the building. Then even power strip protectors (that only claim to absorb hundreds of joules) are protected.

Another probably has posted the usual cut and paste myths. With text to keep you confused. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8 shows how plug-in protectors even earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via any nearby appliance.. Nothing protects once a destructive surge is all but invited inside. Somehow adjacent protectors must somehow block or absorb a surge. Nothing stops or blocks destructive surges. Therefore every facility that cannot have damage always connects destructive surges to earth outside the building - either by a wire or via a 'whole house' protector. Only then is one surge every seven years or one surge every 30 years made irrelevant. That superior solution (because is does not stop surges) also costs tens or 100 times less money.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Either harmlessly in earth (damped out in the first six feet). Or destructively via appliances. Surge damage is determined by decisions made by a homeowner. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - since nothing an stop a surge.

Why do companies with better integrity manufacturer 'whole house' protectors? Do you want protection. Or do you want to enrich them for selling a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts for $25 or $80? Better is to put your money into real world protection. That means a 'whole house' protector (a completely different device) from companies such as Leviton, Syscom, Siemens, Polyphaser, Intermatic, ABB, General Electric, Square D, or Cutler-Hammer - to name but a few. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution was selling in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Then grossly undersized power strip protectors need not create house fires.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

The computer club guy was discussing protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Plugin types that costs dollars to make while selling for tens or 100 dollars. He is right about best protection damped out in the first six feet. But only if a completely different device (also misleadingly called a surge protector) exists there.

One incoming wire already connects to earth. So a destructive surge is damped out in the first feet. Other AC wires are only earthed if a 'whole house' protector makes that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. Only then are surges made completely irrelevant in the first feet. If that completely different device ('whole house' protector) does not exist, then surges are inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. In your case, apparently once in thirty years. Those cheap power strips did exactly what they claim - no protection from destructive surges. Why do so many recommend replacing power strip protectors every couple years? Because advertising says so. Most who recommend plug-in protectors are educated by advertising. And not by hard facts.

Daily surges that so many fear are only noise - made completely irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance - even dimmer switches. Effective protection means destructive surges (even direct lightning strikes) are damped out when connection low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth.

Routine is protection from direct lightning strikes when a protector connects low impedance to earth. And the numbers that say so. Direct lightning strikes are typically about 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because unlike power strips, one 'whole house' protector is protection for all types of surges including direct lightning strikes.

"No surge protector would have stopped that motha". Correct. Any protector that stops, blocks, or absorbs a surge is a scam. Why is a 'whole house' protector so effective? It works like a wire. It connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth outside the building. Then even power strip protectors (that only claim to absorb hundreds of joules) are protected.

Another probably has posted the usual cut and paste myths. With text to keep you confused. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8 shows how plug-in protectors even earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via any nearby appliance. Nothing protects once a destructive surge is all but invited inside. Somehow adjacent protectors must somehow block or absorb a surge. Nothing stops or blocks destructive surges. Therefore every facility that cannot have damage always connects destructive surges to earth outside the building - either by a wire or via a 'whole house' protector. Only then is one surge every seven years or one surge every 30 years made irrelevant. That superior solution (because is does not stop surges) also costs tens or 100 times less money.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Either harmlessly in earth (damped out in the first six feet). Or destructively via appliances. Surge damage is determined by decisions made by a homeowner. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - since nothing an stop a surge.

Why do companies with better integrity manufacturer 'whole house' protectors? Do you want protection. Or do you want to enrich them for selling a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts for $25 or $80? Better is to put your money into real world protection. That means a 'whole house' protector (a completely different device) from companies such as Leviton, Syscom, Siemens, Polyphaser, Intermatic, ABB, General Electric, Square D, or Cutler-Hammer - to name but a few. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution was selling in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Then grossly undersized power strip protectors need not create house fires.

I *knew* this bait was just too tempting for W_Tom to refuse. The
idiot can't even figure out how to use a newsreader.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

right on queue

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years

Does that include Leap years?

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 12:29:42 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
Does that include Leap years?

A leap year is the year you jump because a strike was so close.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:26:06 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 12:29:42 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
Does that include Leap years?

A leap year is the year you jump because a strike was so close.

Do you know what a leap day is?

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:29:42 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

right on queue

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years

Does that include Leap years?

Nah, W_Tom's surges are caused by broken mirrors.

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and
have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on
24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a
radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge
protector would have stopped that motha.

The computer club guy was discussing protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Plugin types that costs dollars to make while selling for tens or 100 dollars. He is right about best protection damped out in the first six feet. But only if a completely different device (also misleadingly called a surge protector) exists there.

One incoming wire already connects to earth. So a destructive surge is damped out in the first feet. Other AC wires are only earthed if a 'whole house' protector makes that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. Only then are surges made completely irrelevant in the first feet. If that completely different device ('whole house' protector) does not exist, then surges are inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. In your case, apparently once in thirty years. Those cheap power strips did exactly what they claim - no protection from destructive surges. Why do so many recommend replacing power strip protectors every couple years? Because advertising says so. Most who recommend plug-in protectors are educated by advertising. And not by hard facts.

Daily surges that so many fear are only noise - made completely irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance - even dimmer switches. Effective protection means destructive surges (even direct lightning strikes) are damped out when connection low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth.

Routine is protection from direct lightning strikes when a protector connects low impedance to earth. And the numbers that say so. Direct lightning strikes are typically about 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because unlike power strips, one 'whole house' protector is protection for all types of surges including direct lightning strikes.

"No surge protector would have stopped that motha". Correct. Any protector that stops, blocks, or absorbs a surge is a scam. Why is a 'whole house' protector so effective? It works like a wire. It connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth outside the building. Then even power strip protectors (that only claim to absorb hundreds of joules) are protected.

Another probably has posted the usual cut and paste myths. With text to keep you confused. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8 shows how plug-in protectors even earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via any nearby appliance. Nothing protects once a destructive surge is all but invited inside. Somehow adjacent protectors must somehow block or absorb a surge. Nothing stops or blocks destructive surges. Therefore every facility that cannot have damage always connects destructive surges to earth outside the building - either by a wire or via a 'whole house' protector. Only then is one surge every seven years or one surge every 30 years made irrelevant. That superior solution (because is does not stop surges) also costs tens or 100 times less money.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Either harmlessly in earth (damped out in the first six feet). Or destructively via appliances. Surge damage is determined by decisions made by a homeowner. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - since nothing an stop a surge.

Why do companies with better integrity manufacturer 'whole house' protectors? Do you want protection. Or do you want to enrich them for selling a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts for $25 or $80? Better is to put your money into real world protection. That means a 'whole house' protector (a completely different device) from companies such as Leviton, Syscom, Siemens, Polyphaser, Intermatic, ABB, General Electric, Square D, or Cutler-Hammer - to name but a few. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution was selling in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Then grossly undersized power strip protectors need not create house fires.


Excellent info.

On 9/29/2013 9:14 AM, westom wrote:

The computer club guy was discussing protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges.

What a surprise. The village idiot is here with his misrepresentations,
and lies.

But no answers to simple questions - like:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
protectors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in protectors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in protector?
- How would a service panel protector provide any protection in the IEEE
example, page 33?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
protector]"?
- Why aren't airplanes crashing daily when they get hit by lightning (or
do they drag an earthing chain)?

Still missing - anyone who agrees with westom that plug-in protectors do
not work.

For real science read the IEEE surge guide (posted by trader) and the
NIST surge guide:
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/sp...%20happen!.pdf
Both surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.

On Monday, September 30, 2013 8:49:54 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 9/29/2013 9:14 AM, westom wrote:



The computer club guy was discussing protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges.



What a surprise. The village idiot is here with his misrepresentations,

and lies.



And finally, after all these years and all those posts
Tom's actually found someone, Ashton, who agrees with him.





But no answers to simple questions - like:

- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in

protectors?

- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in protectors are "the easiest

solution"?

- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the

consumer install" a multiport plug-in protector?

- How would a service panel protector provide any protection in the IEEE

example, page 33?

- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only

effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport

[plug-in] protector"?

- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this

paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge

protector]"?

- Why aren't airplanes crashing daily when they get hit by lightning (or

do they drag an earthing chain)?



Still missing - anyone who agrees with westom that plug-in protectors do

not work.



For real science read the IEEE surge guide (posted by trader) and the

NIST surge guide:

And also:

http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/sp...%20happen!.pdf

Both surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 11:14:11 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:

I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and

have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on

24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a

radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge

protector would have stopped that motha.



The computer club guy was discussing protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges.

The first lie. How do you know what some guy at a computer
club was or wasn't talking about? Were you there?



Plugin types that costs dollars to make while selling for tens or 100 dollars.

Imagine that. By the time a product goes from manufacturing
to being bought in a store, there is considerable markup along
the way.




He is right about best protection damped out in the first six feet. But only if a completely different device (also misleadingly called a surge protector) exists there.


Good grief. There was no mention of ANY surge protector. The
"computer club guy", we are told, said just 6 ft of wire is all
that's needed period.





One incoming wire already connects to earth. So a destructive surge is damped out in the first feet. Other AC wires are only earthed if a 'whole house' protector makes that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. Only then are surges made completely irrelevant in the first feet.

The IEEE guide disagrees. They clearly show the need for
multi-port surge protectors to protect appliances connected
to more than just the AC, eg a TV or PC connected to cable,
phone, Ethernet, etc.



If that completely different device ('whole house' protector) does not exist, then surges are inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances..



Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. In your case, apparently once in thirty years. Those cheap power strips did exactly what they claim - no protection from destructive surges.

If it's just a power strip with no surge protection, then
it's true that it has no surge protection. It doesn't claim to
have surge protection either.



Why do so many recommend replacing power strip protectors every couple years? Because advertising says so. Most who recommend plug-in protectors are educated by advertising. And not by hard facts.



Now you've conflated power strip type SURGE PROTECTORS, ie power
strips that are rated for surge protection with the above ones
that are not surge protectors and don't claim to be.





Daily surges that so many fear are only noise - made completely irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance - even dimmer switches.

I don't know what "many fear" or think about surges.
I've always been primarily concerned about surges
originating on the utility lines.




Effective protection means destructive surges (even direct lightning strikes) are damped out when connection low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth.



Still waiting all these years for an answer as to if no
protection is possible without a 10 ft low impedance connection
to earth, how are avionics protected in aircraft?




Routine is protection from direct lightning strikes when a protector connects low impedance to earth. And the numbers that say so. Direct lightning strikes are typically about 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Because unlike power strips, one 'whole house' protector is protection for all types of surges including direct lightning strikes.



Of course as has been pointed out by Bud a zillion times now,
the chance of that 20,000 amps making it to a surge protector
is very small. That much energy arcs over and most of the
energy in a lightning strike gets dissipated before it even
gets to the surge protector.




"No surge protector would have stopped that motha". Correct. Any protector that stops, blocks, or absorbs a surge is a scam.

Strawman detected. Strawman rejected. Perhaps you'd like to
show us a surge protector from a major manufacturer that says
their product "absorbs" a surge.


Why is a 'whole house' protector so effective? It works like a wire. It connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth outside the building. Then even power strip protectors (that only claim to absorb hundreds of joules) are protected.



Why are avionics on airplanes protected without a direct wire
to earth?





Another probably has posted the usual cut and paste myths. With text to keep you confused. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8 shows how plug-in protectors even earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via any nearby appliance. Nothing protects once a destructive surge is all but invited inside. Somehow adjacent protectors must somehow block or absorb a surge. Nothing stops or blocks destructive surges.

It's unbelievable that you have the balls to actually keep
bringing this up and trying to use it to lie. Does the IEEE
say what you claim, that the surge protector on TV1 "caused"
the damage on TV2? No. They show the surge protector on
TV1 working, TV1 having no damage. TV2 without a surge protector
they show being damaged. And then they clearly state:

"A second multi-port protector as shown in Fig. 7 is required to protect TV2"
That statement is the last line of the paragraph that's part of fig 8.

That is 180 deg opposite of what you claim. Also, on the page
before, they show another example of a plug-in surge protector
being used to protect a TV from a destructive surge. Everyone
can see it for themselves:

pages 32 and 33,

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Two examples of plug-in protectors being used, right
in the IEEE guide. Now, who should we believe? The
IEEE expert engineers, or you? Where are YOUR references?



Therefore every facility that cannot have damage always connects destructive surges to earth outside the building - either by a wire or via a 'whole house' protector. Only then is one surge every seven years or one surge every 30 years made irrelevant. That superior solution (because is does not stop surges) also costs tens or 100 times less money.



And all those "facilities", eg telcos, also use a tiered
strategy, just like the IEEE recommends. They don't rely
on just a surge protector on the
lines where they enter the building. Telephone line cards
for example, have surge protection on them too.





Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.

If that's all that's required, then the lightning strike at
the utility line 200 ft from the house won't cause any
problems inside the house, right? Because that's where
the hundreds of thousands of joules is dissipated, ie
where the lightning strike was. Only a small fraction of
that energy makes it to the house, to the appliance, etc.




Either harmlessly in earth (damped out in the first six feet). Or destructively via appliances. Surge damage is determined by decisions made by a homeowner. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - since nothing an stop a surge.



Are those airplanes connected with a 6 ft wire to earth?






Why do companies with better integrity manufacturer 'whole house' protectors?

The problem here is your faulty definition of "better integrity".
You claim any company that makes plug-in surge protectors is
a scam. Yet there are companies like GE making them. And I
believe Bud has shown you examples where companies that make
whole house types also talk about using plug-ins too. Just
like IEEE.


Do you want protection. Or do you want to enrich them for selling a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts for $25 or $80? Better is to put your money into real world protection. That means a 'whole house' protector (a completely different device) from companies such as Leviton, Syscom, Siemens, Polyphaser, Intermatic, ABB, General Electric, Square D, or Cutler-Hammer - to name but a few. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution was selling in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Then grossly undersized power strip protectors need not create house fires.

Better take GE off that list. They sell plug-ins. Also another
question asked and never answered all these years. Where is the
link to that surge protector at HD that is rated at 50K amps for
$50?

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer

wrote:



Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is

why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's

televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are

alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an

electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,

and how to use them safely.



Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's

brother) is a licensed union electrician,



Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?

Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.



My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody

nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you

from something that basically none of you have to worry about.



There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one

of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all

nonsense as far as anyone really needing them.

What makes you think this person knows anything more than the
electrician you just criticized. Was he an electrical engineer,
familiar with surge protection concepts, or did he work
the company phone?




The transient spikes

are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6

feet.

BS. Relevant documents from NIST, IEEE have been posted
here many times and they sure don't say anything like that.
Maybe you can explain to us the physics behind how 6 ft of
house wiring stops a surge.



So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad

grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the

same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps

to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally

starting, you are chasing a mirage.

Refrigerators and similar appliances in the house typically don't
create the surges that need to be protected against.


About the only thing you might

need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little

surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.



Well that's true if the lightning bolt directly hits the TV
sitting in the living room. But that is almost impossible.
The surges from lightning that damage appliances in a house
are typically from lighting striking nearby,
eg hitting the utility lines along the street, the service
cable going to the house, etc. That creates a powerful surge,
on the lines going into the house, but it's a small amount
of the total energy from the lightning strike. Surge protectors are
effective in dealing with those surges. If they are not,
why do you think companies that have electronic eqpt
to protect, eg Telco, cable company, etc all use surge protection?



I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and

have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on

24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a

radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge

protector would have stopped that motha.

Good grief. Read the IEEE guide. If you had decent surge
protectorion, all that damage could have likely been prevented.

Read what the IEEE panel of engineering professionals says:

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer

wrote:



Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is

why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's

televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are

alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an

electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,

and how to use them safely.



Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's

brother) is a licensed union electrician,



Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?

Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.



My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody

nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you

from something that basically none of you have to worry about.



There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one

of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all

nonsense as far as anyone really needing them.

What makes you think this person knows anything more than the
electrician you just criticized. Was he an electrical engineer,
familiar with surge protection concepts, or did he work
the company phone?




The transient spikes

are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6

feet.

BS. Relevant documents from NIST, IEEE have been posted
here many times and they sure don't say anything like that.
Maybe you can explain to us the physics behind how 6 ft of
house wiring stops a surge.



So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad

grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the

same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps

to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally

starting, you are chasing a mirage.

Refrigerators and similar appliances in the house typically don't
create the surges that need to be protected against.


About the only thing you might

need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little

surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.



Well that's true if the lightning bolt directly hits the TV
sitting in the living room. But that is almost impossible.
The surges from lightning that damage appliances in a house
are typically from lighting striking nearby,
eg hitting the utility lines along the street, the service
cable going to the house, etc. That creates a powerful surge,
on the lines going into the house, but it's a small amount
of the total energy from the lightning strike. Surge protectors are
effective in dealing with those surges. If they are not,
why do you think companies that have electronic eqpt
to protect, eg Telco, cable company, etc all use surge protection?



I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and

have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on

24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a

radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge

protector would have stopped that motha.

Good grief. Read the IEEE guide. If you had decent surge
protectorion, all that damage could have likely been prevented.

Read what the IEEE panel of engineering professionals says:

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf


That's lightening protection, not the "surge protection" the scammers
are selling.

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 10:32:46 PM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:48:38 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Sunday, September 29, 2013 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 18:51:19 -0400, Metspitzer



wrote:







Most of us have more devices than we have plugs in the wall, which is



why you'll likely find a surge protector behind most people's



televisions and under our desks. However, not all surge protectors are



alike, and some even put your gadgets at risk. We talked to an



electrician to sort out how to tell the good ones from the bad ones,



and how to use them safely.







Charles Ravenscraft (yes, that's Lifehacker writer Eric Ravenscraft's



brother) is a licensed union electrician,







Why would an electrician be any kind of expert on surge protection?



Maybe he is, maybe he's full of crap.







My vote is for crap, not just for him but for the whole bloody



nonsense about surge protectors. It's a giant industry to protect you



from something that basically none of you have to worry about.







There was a guy in my computer club many years ago who worked for one



of the main companies that built surge protectors. He said it's all



nonsense as far as anyone really needing them.



What makes you think this person knows anything more than the

electrician you just criticized. Was he an electrical engineer,

familiar with surge protection concepts, or did he work

the company phone?









The transient spikes



are damped out in just a few feet of house wiring, I think he said 6



feet.



BS. Relevant documents from NIST, IEEE have been posted

here many times and they sure don't say anything like that.

Maybe you can explain to us the physics behind how 6 ft of

house wiring stops a surge.







So unless you have really crappy wiring in your house with bad



grounds and such and the outlet your computer is plugged into is the



same outlet as your 40 year old refrigerator uses that draws 20 amps



to start and dims the lights then repeats 6 times before finally



starting, you are chasing a mirage.



Refrigerators and similar appliances in the house typically don't

create the surges that need to be protected against.





About the only thing you might



need to worry about is lightening striking but if it does your little



surge strip isn't going to protect anything anyway.







Well that's true if the lightning bolt directly hits the TV

sitting in the living room. But that is almost impossible.

The surges from lightning that damage appliances in a house

are typically from lighting striking nearby,

eg hitting the utility lines along the street, the service

cable going to the house, etc. That creates a powerful surge,

on the lines going into the house, but it's a small amount

of the total energy from the lightning strike. Surge protectors are

effective in dealing with those surges. If they are not,

why do you think companies that have electronic eqpt

to protect, eg Telco, cable company, etc all use surge protection?







I've been buying the cheapest power strips I can find for 30 years and



have never had a problem with a power "surge" and I leave my system on



24/7. I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a



radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge



protector would have stopped that motha.



Good grief. Read the IEEE guide. If you had decent surge

protectorion, all that damage could have likely been prevented.



Read what the IEEE panel of engineering professionals says:



http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf





That's lightening protection, not the "surge protection" the scammers

are selling.

"Where do you think most destructive surges seen by appliances
like a TV or PC come from? Did you bother to even read the IEEE guide?"


1. INTRODUCTION
This guide is intended to provide useful information about the proper specification
and application of surge protectors, to protect houses and their contents from
lightning and other electrical surges. The guide is written for electricians,
electronics technicians and engineers, electrical inspectors, building designers,
and others with some technical background, and the need to understand lightning
protection.
Surge protection has become a much more complex and important issue in recent
years."


Lightning is the most common sources of these destructive
surges. As Bud pointed out there are other possible sources
from utility events as well. You, in your post, basically
dismissed the possibility of protecting against lightning surges.

"I did have lightening strike once and it blew the **** out of a radio and computer and clock, fried a couple breakers, etc. No surge protector would have stopped that motha. "


The IEEE guide discusses exactly that situation. They show how
a lighting strike to the utility lines near a home creates
a surge at the appliance and they show a tiered
protection strategy that would have prevented the above damage
that you had. That strategy includes the use of multi-port,
plug-in surge protectors.
Also note that nowhere does that IEEE guide
written by several industry engineers who are experts
in the field say that 6 feet of wire will stop the typical
destructive surge, that plug-in surge protectors are useless, etc.
Did 6 ft stop your surge? Good grief.

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 12:48:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Good grief. Read the IEEE guide. If you had decent surge
protectorion, all that damage could have likely been prevented.

The IEEE Guide shows that good protector too far from earth ground. Therefore nearby appliances were damaged by 8000 volts. How can this be since you claim a surge can be inside the house and never cause damage. Oh. You are attacking the messenger because you have no facts.

Protection means a surge current is not inside the house. Any protector that would stop or absorb that current at the appliance is ... well where is that manufacturer spec number that claims protection? Oh. You never provided one for one good reason. Even the manufacturer does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. So you attack the messenger rather than post facts.

Even the IEEE Guide shows what happens when a surge is not properly earthed by one 'whole house' protector. Appliances damaged by 8000 volts. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8.

On Monday, September 30, 2013 9:44:59 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Sunday, September 29, 2013 12:48:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:

Good grief. Read the IEEE guide. If you had decent surge

protectorion, all that damage could have likely been prevented.



The IEEE Guide shows that good protector too far from earth ground.

Nonsense it shows it by the TV and protecting the TV in fig 7.
In fig 8, it clearly shows two TV's. One uses a plug-in multi-port
surge protector and it's protected from the destructive surge.
The other TV, TV2 without a plug-in protector in the same diagram
is damaged by the surge. The IEEE guide then states:

"A second multi-port protector as shown in Fig. 7 is required to protect TV2"

They show two separate instances of how to protect appliances, the
only two in fact, and both show the use of plug-in surge protectors.

Only a liar would turn that into:

"The IEEE Guide shows that good protector too far from earth ground."


Therefore nearby appliances were damaged by 8000 volts. How can this be since you claim a surge can be inside the house and never cause damage. Oh.

"A second multi-port protector as shown in Fig. 7 is required to protect TV2"




You are attacking the messenger because you have no facts.



I have the IEEE guide. It's quite obvious you have no credible
references at all that agree with your assertions. That's why
you have to take the IEEE guide and totally misrepresent and lie
about what it actually says. They show one TV protected from
a surge by a plug-in. The second TV, with no plug-in protector,
gets damaged. The IEEE guides states:

"A second multi-port protector as shown in Fig. 7 is required to protect TV2"

And you try to turn that into plug-in surge protectors being
useless, can't work because they have no earth ground, cause
damage, etc?

Good grief!




Protection means a surge current is not inside the house.

Again, 180deg opposite the IEEE guide.



Any protector that would stop or absorb that current at the appliance is ... well where is that manufacturer spec number that claims protection? Oh. You never provided one for one good reason.

Here's an example from APC:

https://www.apc.com/products/resourc...ase_sku=P6BMP4


Output
Number of Outlets

6


Receptacle Style

NEMA 5-15R


Input

Nominal Input Voltage

120V


Input Frequency

50/60 Hz +/- 5 Hz (auto sensing)



Input Connections

NEMA 5-15P NEMA 5-15P



Maximum Line Current per phase

15A



Cord Length

1.83 meters


Surge Protection and Filtering

Surge energy rating

490 Joules


eP Joule Rating

1080



EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 MHz)

20 dB


Peak Current Normal Mode

10 kAmps


Peak Current Common Mode

20 kAmps



Let Through Voltage Rating

330



Physical


Net Weight

0.45 KG

Maximum Height

292.00 mm

Maximum Width

57.00 mm

Maximum Depth

38.00 mm



Happy now?


Even the manufacturer does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. So you attack the messenger rather than post facts.



Of course the manufacturer's claim that they protect from
typical surges.





Even the IEEE Guide shows what happens when a surge is not properly earthed by one 'whole house' protector. Appliances damaged by 8000 volts. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8.

What the IEEE guide actually shows is a diagram with two
TV's. TV1 is protected by a plug-in surge protector and
has no damage. TV2 has no surge protector and is damaged.
IEEE then states:

""A second multi-port protector as shown in Fig. 7 is required to protect TV2"

On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Good grief. Read the IEEE guide. If you had decent surge

protectorion, all that damage could have likely been prevented.



The IEEE Guide shows that good protector too far from earth ground.

Nonsense it shows it by the TV and protecting the TV in fig 7.
In fig 8, it clearly shows two TV's. One uses a plug-in multi-port
surge protector and it's protected from the destructive surge.
The other TV, TV2 without a plug-in protector in the same diagram
is damaged by the surge. The IEEE guide then states:

"A second multi-port protector as shown in Fig. 7 is required to protect TV2"

I think westom wants a lightning rod on every appliance, cable / phone
lines, PC and garage door opener.

see why I told him who I could trust?

That boy likes a good spanking here :-\

On Monday, September 30, 2013 12:10:33 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Nonsense it shows it by the TV and protecting the TV in fig 7.
In fig 8, it clearly shows two TV's. One uses a plug-in multi-port
surge protector and it's protected from the destructive surge.
The other TV, TV2 without a plug-in protector in the same diagram
is damaged by the surge. The IEEE guide then states:

It protects TV1 by earthing the surge 8000 volts destructively via TV2. If you need a power strip protector on TV2, then you need one on every appliance including every clock, furnace, dishwasher, clock radio, etc. How do you put a protector on each GFCI? Why would anyone spend over $2500 on plug-in protectors when one 'whole house' protector does more for only $1 per protected appliance? Because naysayers who never did this stuff recommend the scam.

So you advocate 8000 volts inside a building as acceptable? Why is that type of transient never acceptable in any facility that cannot have damage? It is called hearsay. Many automatically believe hearsay without any doubts, questions, or a demand for how it works. Protection is always about a surge current earthed outside the building. So that 8000 volts is not hunting for earth destructively via any appliance. For superior protection that costs tens or 100 times less money.

Plug-in protectors do virtually no protection from typically destructive surges. They are for another surge that typically does no damage. Plug-in protectors are implemented only after a 'whole house' protector is installed (by people who actually do this stuff). Plug-in protectors even need to be protected by a 'whole house' protector. Since fire is another outgoing problem with those undersized and high profit SPDs.

The IEEE Guide says what effective protectors must do:
2.2 Surge Protective Device Ratings
There are three requirements of the service entrance SPD. They
are as follows:
1) To suppress the larger surges from the outside environment
to levels that would not be damaging to equipment at the
service entrance, or to equipment (air conditioning, wired-in
appliances) directly connected to the branch circuits.
2) To reduce the surge current to the downstream SPDs
(including multiport SPDs).
3) To stop the large lightning currents from passing into
the house wiring system and damaging the wiring or inducing
large voltages that would damage electronic equipment.

That is what effective surge protection does. That is never accomplished with any plug-in protector. Attacking the messenger may convince the naive. But it does not prove a power strip does any protection from a typically destructive surge.

Then the Guide says what effective protectors do and what a power strip protector never does:
2.3.1 Grounding
An effective, low-impedance ground path is critical
for the successful operation of an SPD. High surge
currents impinging on a power distribution system
having a relatively high grounding resistance can
create enormous ground potential rises(see Section
4 beginning on page 30), resulting in damage.
Therefore, an evaluation of the service entrance
grounding system at the time of the SPD
installation is very important.

What do you ignore because you never did this stuff? Earth ground. Those educated by advertising never discuss the most important component in every protection system: single point earth ground.

A protector (SPD) is only as effective as its earth ground. Intentionally ignoring IEEE Guide paragraphs that you do not understand does not prove you have higher intelligence. Attacking the messenger while ignoring what the Guide really says you are easily manipulated by sales myths.

The IEEE Guide says things you ignore to remain deceived. The only solution used in every facility that cannot have damage is earthing. With low impedance (another phrase you intentionally ignore) connection to that ground via a wire or 'whole house' protector. Some facilities ban power strip protectors due to a fire risk and other problems. And because a properly earthed 'whole house' solution does over 99.5% of the protection.