One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum efficiency of air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in thinner tubing walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result, more ozone-damaging freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/

writes:

One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum
efficiency of air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in
thinner tubing walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result,
more ozone-damaging freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/

Freon used in air conditioners is no longer the ozone-damaging kind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon

(another effect of legislation)

--
Dan Espen

Netpick!

Freon is a brand name, a company that makes (or
used to make) refrigerants. The same refrigerants
were made by Genetron, Isotron, Forane, and
perhaps other companies.

Saying "Freon" is like saying Sunoco, or saying
Tylenol, or Kleenex. It's a brand name.

Further, there are several different types of
Freon, like there are different types of Sunoco,
or of Tylenol.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/14/2013 8:37 AM, Dan Espen wrote:

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/

Freon used in air conditioners is no longer the ozone-damaging kind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon

(another effect of legislation)

wrote in
:

One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum
efficiency of air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in
thinner tubing walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result,
more ozone-damaging freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/



You're posting the comment above as though you wrote it yourself. It is in
fact a quote from the page you referenced aftwards. There is a correct way
to quote excerpts from a reference, and what you did isn't it.

I find it odd that the article talks repeatedly about formaldehyde
corrosion, but then includes a photograph of corrosion caused by salt-
spray. Huh?


--
Tegger

On 9/14/2013 8:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Netpick!

Freon is a brand name, a company that makes (or
used to make) refrigerants. The same refrigerants
were made by Genetron, Isotron, Forane, and
perhaps other companies.

Saying "Freon" is like saying Sunoco, or saying
Tylenol, or Kleenex. It's a brand name.

Further, there are several different types of
Freon, like there are different types of Sunoco,
or of Tylenol.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


Freon is DuPont's trade name for their refrigerants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon

Chloro fluoro carbon compounds were banned as ozone depleting substances
and replaced by fluoro carbons without chlorine. Chloro carbons like
carbon tet also fell under the ban.

In article ,
Frank wrote:

Chloro fluoro carbon compounds were banned as ozone depleting substances
and replaced by fluoro carbons without chlorine. Chloro carbons like
carbon tet also fell under the ban.
Which had its own unintended consequences. I used to do fire
investigations in a heavily Amish area right about the time the Carbon
tet ban was taking effect. The Amish, among others, used it heavily in
their chimney fires.
So, we rolled up on this pretty well gutted house and found 2-3
regular fire extinguishers just sitting there full loaded in the
fireplace. The chief told us that he was going to have a couple of fire
extinguisher sessions at the local Amish hall to let them know that you
couldn't just throw them into the fireplace, have them bust open and
take care of the fire.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 4:03:46 PM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

Frank wrote:



Chloro fluoro carbon compounds were banned as ozone depleting substances

and replaced by fluoro carbons without chlorine. Chloro carbons like

carbon tet also fell under the ban.

Which had its own unintended consequences. I used to do fire

investigations in a heavily Amish area right about the time the Carbon

tet ban was taking effect. The Amish, among others, used it heavily in

their chimney fires.

So, we rolled up on this pretty well gutted house and found 2-3

regular fire extinguishers just sitting there full loaded in the

fireplace. The chief told us that he was going to have a couple of fire

extinguisher sessions at the local Amish hall to let them know that you

couldn't just throw them into the fireplace, have them bust open and

take care of the fire.

--


I'm not sure I get this.... I remember the old carbon tetrachloride
fire extinguishers that you pumped to squirt it on the fire. You're
saying the Amish would just throw the whole thing in a fire to put it
out? And that they then thought it would work with other fire
extinguishers too? Even with carbon tet, it would take a while for
the heat to cause it to finally burst. In the meantime, the fire
spreads. Not a very effective way of
using it. And throwing the fire extinguisher in the fire would
destroy a perfectly good extinguisher that could be refilled.
Really dumb.

On 9/14/2013 4:26 PM, wrote:


Which had its own unintended consequences. I used to do fire

investigations in a heavily Amish area right about the time the Carbon

tet ban was taking effect. The Amish, among others, used it heavily in

their chimney fires.

So, we rolled up on this pretty well gutted house and found 2-3

regular fire extinguishers just sitting there full loaded in the

fireplace. The chief told us that he was going to have a couple of fire

extinguisher sessions at the local Amish hall to let them know that you

couldn't just throw them into the fireplace, have them bust open and

take care of the fire.

--


I'm not sure I get this.... I remember the old carbon tetrachloride
fire extinguishers that you pumped to squirt it on the fire. You're
saying the Amish would just throw the whole thing in a fire to put it
out? And that they then thought it would work with other fire
extinguishers too?



I think you could toss a glass bottle of carbon tet and have it break
open. I recall glass "bombs" in holders for that purpose.

On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 17:16:57 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I think you could toss a glass bottle of carbon tet and have it break
open. I recall glass "bombs" in holders for that purpose.

Pawn Stars had an episode when a customer brought some of these in.
Very old but not practical to use today

ISTR the pawn shop bought them for vintage historical reasons.

Seems they hung on a wall and tossed when needed for a fire.

Called a glass ball fire extinguisher grenade.

Sample:

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/01/06/806531_01_2_vintage_red_comet_glass_fire_640.jpg

That's a real shame. To lose a house, cause no one
showed them how a fire extinguisher of that design
works.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/14/2013 4:03 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
Which had its own unintended consequences. I used to do fire
investigations in a heavily Amish area right about the time the Carbon
tet ban was taking effect. The Amish, among others, used it heavily in
their chimney fires.
So, we rolled up on this pretty well gutted house and found 2-3
regular fire extinguishers just sitting there full loaded in the
fireplace. The chief told us that he was going to have a couple of fire
extinguisher sessions at the local Amish hall to let them know that you
couldn't just throw them into the fireplace, have them bust open and
take care of the fire.

Some of the early carbon tet units were glass balls.
You'd throw them at the fire, the ball would break
and release the liquid.

I've also heard of old guys turn a fire extinguisher
upside down, because the old soda acids had to turn
bottom up. With the new units, all you'd get upside
down is propellant.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/14/2013 4:26 PM, wrote:

So, we rolled up on this pretty well gutted house and found 2-3
regular fire extinguishers just sitting there full loaded in the
fireplace. The chief told us that he was going to have a couple of fire
extinguisher sessions at the local Amish hall to let them know that you
couldn't just throw them into the fireplace, have them bust open and
take care of the fire.

--


I'm not sure I get this.... I remember the old carbon tetrachloride
fire extinguishers that you pumped to squirt it on the fire. You're
saying the Amish would just throw the whole thing in a fire to put it
out? And that they then thought it would work with other fire
extinguishers too? Even with carbon tet, it would take a while for
the heat to cause it to finally burst. In the meantime, the fire
spreads. Not a very effective way of
using it. And throwing the fire extinguisher in the fire would
destroy a perfectly good extinguisher that could be refilled.
Really dumb.

Wow, you and I are dated. Me, I only read about the
glass bombs.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/14/2013 5:16 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I think you could toss a glass bottle of carbon tet and have it break
open. I recall glass "bombs" in holders for that purpose.

"Frank" wrote in message ...

On 9/14/2013 8:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Netpick!

Freon is a brand name, a company that makes (or
used to make) refrigerants. The same refrigerants
were made by Genetron, Isotron, Forane, and
perhaps other companies.

Saying "Freon" is like saying Sunoco, or saying
Tylenol, or Kleenex. It's a brand name.

Further, there are several different types of
Freon, like there are different types of Sunoco,
or of Tylenol.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


Freon is DuPont's trade name for their refrigerants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon

Chloro fluoro carbon compounds were banned as ozone depleting substances
and replaced by fluoro carbons without chlorine. Chloro carbons like
carbon tet also fell under the ban.

In the 40's we used carbon tet during radio repairs. Squirted it into radio
cabinets to kill the cockroaches before removing the back covers. Also had a
five gallon can to dip the chassis into to clean them. Bare handed no masks.
Learned in later years how dangerous to health that was. Surprised I am
still here to type this. WW

On 9/14/2013 6:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Netpick!

Freon is a brand name, a company that makes (or
used to make) refrigerants. The same refrigerants
were made by Genetron, Isotron, Forane, and
perhaps other companies.

Saying "Freon" is like saying Sunoco, or saying
Tylenol, or Kleenex. It's a brand name.

"Freon" is pretty much like aspirin, xerox copy, kleenex, BX, Romex, ...
All are brand names that are effectively generic now.


Further, there are several different types of
Freon, like there are different types of Sunoco,
or of Tylenol.

"Freon" can apply to all of them.

On 9/14/2013 5:32 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
That's a real shame. To lose a house, cause no one
showed them how a fire extinguisher of that design
works.


RTFM?

On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 19:44:32 -0600, "WW"
wrote in Re The
adverse effects of legislating efficiency::

In the 40's we used carbon tet during radio repairs. Squirted it into radio
cabinets to kill the cockroaches before removing the back covers. Also had a
five gallon can to dip the chassis into to clean them. Bare handed no masks.
Learned in later years how dangerous to health that was. Surprised I am
still here to type this. WW

Maybe it isn't as dangerous as the Feds claim. When I look at all
stuff the Feds claim is "dangerous" and how much our society used all
of it years ago, ISTM we should all be dead.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

Some guys used to use carbon tet as hand cleaner.

I've heard of dusting the kids with DDT before school,
to keep the bugs off.

We used to drink out of the garden hose, and the whole
list that makes the rounds on internet.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/14/2013 9:44 PM, WW wrote:

Freon is DuPont's trade name for their refrigerants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freon

Chloro fluoro carbon compounds were banned as ozone depleting substances
and replaced by fluoro carbons without chlorine. Chloro carbons like
carbon tet also fell under the ban.

In the 40's we used carbon tet during radio repairs. Squirted it into
radio cabinets to kill the cockroaches before removing the back covers.
Also had a five gallon can to dip the chassis into to clean them. Bare
handed no masks. Learned in later years how dangerous to health that
was. Surprised I am still here to type this. WW

I'm not normally on the computer at 6:23 AM but
I had to take a sudafed for my congestion.
Except that my sudafed was store brand. Sigh.

The daytime cough and cold mixture has a couple
milligrams of freon mixed in, Tylenol you know.

This is a fun email. Might print it out, and make
a couple freons. Before I blow my nose on a freon.

Finish wiring the house with freon, and need some
of that sheathed freon to wire the cellar.

Stop at the gas station, and tank up with 87 freon,
gosh, I'm getting tired of that freon word.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/15/2013 3:19 AM, bud-- wrote:
"Freon" is pretty much like aspirin, xerox copy, kleenex, BX, Romex, ...
All are brand names that are effectively generic now.


Further, there are several different types of
Freon, like there are different types of Sunoco,
or of Tylenol.

"Freon" can apply to all of them.

On 9/13/2013 11:40 PM, wrote:
One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum
efficiency of air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in
thinner tubing walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result,
more ozone-damaging freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/


The "Law Of Unintended Results" always applies to anything Congress gets
involved with. o_O

TDD

Yes, I'd have to guess they did come with a
furnished manual. I wonder how many times in
my life, I use the old instructions on the new
device, and wonder why the freon thing doesn't
work?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/15/2013 3:20 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 9/14/2013 5:32 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
That's a real shame. To lose a house, cause no one
showed them how a fire extinguisher of that design
works.


RTFM?

On 09/15/2013 06:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'm not normally on the computer at 6:23 AM but
I had to take a sudafed for my congestion.
Except that my sudafed was store brand. Sigh.

The daytime cough and cold mixture has a couple
milligrams of freon mixed in, Tylenol you know.

This is a fun email. Might print it out, and make
a couple freons. Before I blow my nose on a freon.


Yo bro, try mixing in some Skittles and iced tea with your Freon Sudafed cocktail. ;-)

You a creepy ass cracker, Generic!

I'm going to call my freon girl friend,
and tell her freon ass about you. Man, what
a freon thing to write. I freon think that
you ought to shut your freon mouth, and
freon mind your own freon business, it's not
my freon fault that I'm walking along sides
of freon houses, and looking like I'm going
to freon break in, with my freon hoodie.

Don't be shooting my freon ass, either, bro!
(Hope you got a smile, as I did while writing
the above freon message.)

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/15/2013 8:35 AM, Generic Person wrote:
On 09/15/2013 06:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'm not normally on the computer at 6:23 AM but
I had to take a sudafed for my congestion.
Except that my sudafed was store brand. Sigh.


Yo bro, try mixing in some Skittles and iced
tea with your Freon Sudafed
cocktail. ;-)

On 09/15/2013 06:22 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Some guys used to use carbon tet as hand cleaner.

I've heard of dusting the kids with DDT before school,
to keep the bugs off.

We used to drink out of the garden hose, and the whole
list that makes the rounds on internet.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org

What kind of childhood event causes people to top-post? :-)

After years of therapy, I am still not
able to deal with it. It was horrific.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/15/2013 9:08 AM, Spoof M. wrote:
On 09/15/2013 06:22 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Some guys used to use carbon tet as hand cleaner.

I've heard of dusting the kids with DDT before school,
to keep the bugs off.

We used to drink out of the garden hose, and the whole
list that makes the rounds on internet.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org

What kind of childhood event causes people to top-post? :-)

In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On

I think you could toss a glass bottle of carbon tet and have it break
open. I recall glass "bombs" in holders for that purpose.

Yep. It has been awhile and I forgot to make the distinctions.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:31:53 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On



I think you could toss a glass bottle of carbon tet and have it break

open. I recall glass "bombs" in holders for that purpose.



Yep. It has been awhile and I forgot to make the distinctions.

--


K, I never saw one of those, only the carbon tet ones that were cylinders
with a pump handle on the end. Makes more sense now. But... man you'd
have to be really, really dumb to not realize the difference between a
glass bottle type intended to shatter and steel cylinders with a trigger,
hose, etc. I guess if a fire truck were available, they'd drive that
into the fire too.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2013 01:19:43 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 9/14/2013 6:47 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Netpick!

Freon is a brand name, a company that makes (or
used to make) refrigerants. The same refrigerants
were made by Genetron, Isotron, Forane, and
perhaps other companies.

Saying "Freon" is like saying Sunoco, or saying
Tylenol, or Kleenex. It's a brand name.

"Freon" is pretty much like aspirin, xerox copy, kleenex, BX, Romex, ...
All are brand names that are effectively generic now.

"Freon" gets the pedantophiles all lathered up, though.

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:27:56 AM UTC-7, Tegger wrote:
wrote in

:



One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum

efficiency of air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in

thinner tubing walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result,

more ozone-damaging freon released into the atmosphere.



http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/







You're posting the comment above as though you wrote it yourself. It is in

fact a quote from the page you referenced aftwards. There is a correct way

to quote excerpts from a reference, and what you did isn't it.



I find it odd that the article talks repeatedly about formaldehyde

corrosion, but then includes a photograph of corrosion caused by salt-

spray. Huh?





--

Tegger

What makes you think I didn't write it?

wrote in
:



What makes you think I didn't write it?



If you did, then can you explain why you'd illustrate a story having to do
with formaldehyde corrosion with a picture of salt-water corrosion?


--
Tegger

wrote in message
...
One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum efficiency of
air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in thinner tubing
walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result, more ozone-damaging
freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/


The term "efficiency" is not applicable to heat pumps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

The Ceofficient of performance is unrelated toany of the things you mention.

If there are leaks, it is down to poor design/assembly.

On 9/16/2013 1:13 AM, harryagain wrote:
wrote in message
...
One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum efficiency of
air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in thinner tubing
walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result, more ozone-damaging
freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/


The term "efficiency" is not applicable to heat pumps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

The Ceofficient of performance is unrelated toany of the things you mention.

If there are leaks, it is down to poor design/assembly.



Yea, the leaking units are probably designed and manufactured by drunk
Limeys in The U.K. ^_^

TDD

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 07:13:52 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum efficiency of
air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in thinner tubing
walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result, more ozone-damaging
freon released into the atmosphere.

http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/


The term "efficiency" is not applicable to heat pumps.

As usual, you're full of ****, harry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

Q/W sure sounds like "efficiency" to me, harry. The units for 'Q' and
'W' commonly used may not be the same but they drop out in the
arithmetic.

The Ceofficient of performance is unrelated toany of the things you mention.

More bull**** from harry.

If there are leaks, it is down to poor design/assembly.

On Monday, September 16, 2013 2:13:52 AM UTC-4, harry wrote:
wrote in message

...

One could argue that the legislation that raised the minimum efficiency of

air conditioners and heat pumps to 13 SEER resulted in thinner tubing

walls, more evaporator coils leaks, and, as a result, more ozone-damaging

freon released into the atmosphere.



http://www.watkinsheating.com/blog/t...f_freon_leaks/





The term "efficiency" is not applicable to heat pumps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance



What do you think one of the E's in SEER stands for? Look it up.





The Ceofficient of performance is unrelated toany of the things you mention.



More nonsense. If you use thinner tubing, then for the same size
heat exchanger you can transfer more heat which effect the COP.





If there are leaks, it is down to poor design/assembly.

that increased efficeny benefits everyone

for the user of the AC, or any appliance it saves money for electricity

even people that havent purchased a new higher efficency whatever benefit, the lower energy use saves electricity, which helps to prevent more power plants building which costs very big bucks...

On Monday, September 16, 2013 7:59:17 PM UTC-7, bob haller wrote:
that increased efficeny benefits everyone



for the user of the AC, or any appliance it saves money for electricity



even people that havent purchased a new higher efficency whatever benefit, the lower energy use saves electricity, which helps to prevent more power plants building which costs very big bucks...

The money you save on electricity is paid to me in big bucks to repair, add or replace, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.