On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Mine spins a coil. So, not all.


All generators that are used for the kind of use being discussed spin a coil, even the inverter types. It's the rest of the generator where
the differences lie. The conventional rely on the constant motor
speed for the frequency and part of the voltage regulation. Those
with an inverter take the generator output and in turn synthesize the
AC waveform. One big thing that does is decouple the engine speed.
Low output, the engine can run at much lower RPM, using less fuel
and making less noise.







.

Christopher A. Young

Learn about Jesus

www.lds.org

.



On 8/27/2013 6:26 PM, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"

wrote:



Per Stormin Mormon:

I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.



That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie

because of all the computer-type stuff I have.



Aren't they all "inverter type", now?

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"

wrote:



Per Stormin Mormon:

I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.



That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie

because of all the computer-type stuff I have.



Aren't they all "inverter type", now?



No, only the most expensive generators are inverter
type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.
The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price
of the equivalent conventional types.

I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through
the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed
engines anymore.

I don't know enough to make a decision, but it seems at least possible

that, with all the computer stuff on UPS', the clean waveform might be

moot... but, like I said, I don't know enough so I went with the

conservative approach.



Computer gear uses switching power supplies. The waveform doesn't

matter. Certainly the voltage doesn't (within the 90-250V range).

They'll probably even work on DC.

I wouldn't expect computer gear to be the most sensitive to
the generator type either. But on the other hand, when I'm
running on any generator, I generally only use the essentials. And
if I had a 21" TV or a 55" one, I'd use the 21 during the power
outage. A neighbor had a small ~2KW generator and his coffee maker
died while it was on it. But who knows why....

Probably,but computers use so little power it really matter. Even my
42" plasma TV only uses 125W (the older one is 500W). Some are
addicted to coffee. ;-)

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 20:02:42 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I may have it figured out. The Dems, by focusing
endless energy on identifying peoples race and by
endless discussion of race, and studying the matter
from a racial point of view, and who focus lots
of attention on the racial background of everyone,
have determined that the Reps are racist?

One evening I accidentally tuned in NPR on the radio,
during one of the Republican conventions. The NPR
voices talked endlessly about the racial makeup of the
convention, and how many minorities, and which races.
The Reps talked about reducing government, and living
within our means.

All of this is very true. Dems view *everything* through the racial
lens, i.e. they're self defining racists.

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 19:59:34 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

That only leaves the party of "the rich didn't
pay their fair share (as defined by us)".

The "arty of the rich" *IS* the Democratic Party.

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"



wrote:







Per Stormin Mormon:



I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.







That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie



because of all the computer-type stuff I have.







Aren't they all "inverter type", now?







No, only the most expensive generators are inverter

type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.

The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price

of the equivalent conventional types.



I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through

the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed

engines anymore.



The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a
cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on
a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You
can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.

Per Stormin Mormon:
The Reps talked about reducing government, and living
within our means.

Neither party is what I'd call exactly trustworthy.

I have to think that many of the same guys who are posturing and
profiling about reducing government were 100% behind Medicare Part D and
the invasion of Iraq - which (obviously?) was a significant increase in
the role of government in the sense of increased expenditure.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 8/27/2013 5:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Would that be on the way home from throwing
granny off a cliff, and starving some
children? Enquiring minds want to know.


Yes, you're correct!

Every capitalist knows that s/he must do whatever it takes to boost the stock price.

Which makes the whole situation more ironic.
Have you noticed that our Muslim in Chief and his
party tend to loudly campaign against the very
things they actively promote?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/27/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 19:59:34 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

That only leaves the party of "the rich didn't
pay their fair share (as defined by us)".

The "arty of the rich" *IS* the Democratic Party.

Also economics of scale. They can sell a few hundred
million phones, but only a million or two generators.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/27/2013 8:50 PM, wrote:

The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a
cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of
transistors on
a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This
inverter stuff needs some of that to control it,
but it also needs the much larger power electronics,
that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You
can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.

One of the gentle readers on this list will likely
remember who said this. But during the early days
of the health cared deform debate (no, I didn't
mean "reform") someone was parading around the
uninsured people who were inconvenienced in this
or that way. And someone said and I paraphrase
"the more people the companies reject, the more
money they can make".

Nothing like throwing old folks off the cliff to
increase profits. I guess if the companies killed
every person in the US, they would be totally
wealthy?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/28/2013 4:30 AM, 1+1=3 wrote:
On 8/27/2013 5:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Would that be on the way home from throwing
granny off a cliff, and starving some
children? Enquiring minds want to know.


Yes, you're correct!

Every capitalist knows that s/he must do whatever it takes to boost the
stock price.

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"



wrote:







Per Stormin Mormon:



I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.







That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie



because of all the computer-type stuff I have.







Aren't they all "inverter type", now?







No, only the most expensive generators are inverter

type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.

The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price

of the equivalent conventional types.



I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through

the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed

engines anymore.



The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a
cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on
a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You
can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.

The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just
$/transistor.

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 07:21:15 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Which makes the whole situation more ironic.
Have you noticed that our Muslim in Chief and his
party tend to loudly campaign against the very
things they actively promote?

Certainly. The only ones who miss the reality/message disconnect are
the ones who have already partaken in the Kool-Aid.

On 8/28/2013 7:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Nothing like throwing old folks off the cliff to
increase profits. I guess if the companies killed
every person in the US, they would be totally
wealthy?

Yes, but only after the old farts have prepaid their policy premium for the year.

Preventative medicine is where we need to be.

Euthanasia is actually one of the cheapest and most effective medical treatments and has very few side effects.

It should be mandatory for anyone over 62.

On 8/29/2013 4:54 AM, 1+1=3 wrote:
On 8/28/2013 7:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Nothing like throwing old folks off the cliff to
increase profits. I guess if the companies killed
every person in the US, they would be totally
wealthy?

Yes, but only after the old farts have prepaid their policy premium for
the year.

Preventative medicine is where we need to be.

Euthanasia is actually one of the cheapest and most effective medical
treatments and has very few side effects.

It should be mandatory for anyone over 62.


Why wait so long? I think your age is just about right.

On 8/29/2013 6:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 8/29/2013 4:54 AM, 1+1=3 wrote:
On 8/28/2013 7:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Nothing like throwing old folks off the cliff to
increase profits. I guess if the companies killed
every person in the US, they would be totally
wealthy?

Yes, but only after the old farts have prepaid their policy premium for
the year.

Preventative medicine is where we need to be.

Euthanasia is actually one of the cheapest and most effective medical
treatments and has very few side effects.

It should be mandatory for anyone over 62.


Why wait so long? I think your age is just about right.

Perhaps abortion would have been justified in his/her/its case? ^_^

TDD

If anesthesia is performed by anesthetist,
would you need a euthanist?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/29/2013 4:54 AM, 1+1=3 wrote:

Yes, but only after the old farts have prepaid their policy premium for
the year.

Preventative medicine is where we need to be.

Euthanasia is actually one of the cheapest and most effective medical
treatments and has very few side effects.

It should be mandatory for anyone over 62.

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:46:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:



On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"







wrote:















Per Stormin Mormon:







I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.















That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie







because of all the computer-type stuff I have.















Aren't they all "inverter type", now?















No, only the most expensive generators are inverter



type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.



The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price



of the equivalent conventional types.







I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through



the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed



engines anymore.







The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a

cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on

a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You

can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.



The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just

$/transistor.



The prices of all electronic devices are not in a free fall.
The large price drops over time are typically
in either new technology
that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it
gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels.
Or in the application of Moore's
Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size
piece of silicon. The last, most powerful force,
clearly doesn't apply to power semiconductors for obvious
reasons. And power electronics is a relatively mature
field. Sure there are some cost reductions still occurring all
but these components are still very expensive
compared to say a microcontroller capable of running
an auto dashboard display or an appliance. You can buy
one of those for less than a $1. The cost of power electronics
is many times that. Don't believe me, take a look at
what a 6KW inverter costs. Then explain how you could put
one of those, plus all the other extra stuff needed, like
electronic throttle control, onto a $700 or $1000
conventional 6KW generator.

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 06:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:46:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:



On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"







wrote:















Per Stormin Mormon:







I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.















That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie







because of all the computer-type stuff I have.















Aren't they all "inverter type", now?















No, only the most expensive generators are inverter



type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.



The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price



of the equivalent conventional types.







I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through



the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed



engines anymore.







The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a

cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on

a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You

can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.



The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just

$/transistor.



The prices of all electronic devices are not in a free fall.

Bull****. They have been for forty years.

The large price drops over time are typically
in either new technology
that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it
gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels.
Or in the application of Moore's
Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size
piece of silicon.

Irrelevant. Because one area is falling faster than another doesn't
mean the bottom isn't dropping out of both. The fact is that it's
getting cheaper to process silicon.

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 04:54:51 -0400, 1+1=3 wrote:


Preventative medicine is where we need to be.

Euthanasia is actually one of the cheapest and most effective medical treatments and has very few side effects.

It should be mandatory for anyone over 62.


This guy did not wait. He checked out at 60. Sad, really, I'll be 68
in a couple of weeks and the past couple of years have been the best
of my life and I'm hoping for many more.


http://martinmanley.org/index2.html

A warning, this is a website of a man that arranged for it to go live
after his planned suicide. However, this is not someone who was
depressed, despairing or suicidal in the normal sense. This is someone
who planned his own death for fourteen months and left everything in
complete order, right down to the place of his death and who would
find him.

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:09:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 06:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:46:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:



On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "







wrote:















On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:







On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"















wrote:































Per Stormin Mormon:















I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.































That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie















because of all the computer-type stuff I have.































Aren't they all "inverter type", now?































No, only the most expensive generators are inverter







type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.







The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price







of the equivalent conventional types.















I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through







the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed







engines anymore.















The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a



cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on



a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You



can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.







The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just



$/transistor.







The prices of all electronic devices are not in a free fall.



Bull****. They have been for forty years.



Here you are, the guy who thought all generators now used
inverters, now telling us how all semiconductor components
are in a free fall regardless of what they are used for.





The large price drops over time are typically

in either new technology

that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it

gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels.

Or in the application of Moore's

Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size

piece of silicon.



Irrelevant. Because one area is falling faster than another doesn't

mean the bottom isn't dropping out of both. The fact is that it's

getting cheaper to process silicon.


That is just flat out wrong. It isn't getting cheaper, it's
getting more expensive. As you go down in feature size, the
cost of the fabs and the processing increases.. Everything from the filtration needed to maintain the clean room to the cost of the lithography eqpt. A new state of the art fab can
cost $5bil. In the 90s, it was $1bil. What makes the cost of
the component go down and/or
the functionality/computing power, etc go up, is that as
the feature size decreases, we can pack way more
transistors on the same size piece of silicon, or alternatively
put the same number of transistors on a smaller piece of
silicon. So it costs more to process a wafer using 22nm
process, but you get a CPU with 2x the transistors. And wafer size has
grown over the years too, so you can get more die per wafer.
That is of huge benefit if your building microprocessors, microcontrollers,
memory, etc. where you need to pack millions of transistors
onto a single die. But the big benefit of reducing the
feature size doesn't apply to power semiconductors,
like an SCR that has to handle
6KW of power. You can't reduce it in size like you can
a memory chip or CPU. If it worked that way, a 6KW inverter would
cost $10 today, It doesn't. But apparently you think it does.

Or how about one of the simplest examples of power electronics,
the light dimmer? There is a market with worldwide competition
and huge volume. A basic dimmer today is $15. That's about what
it cost in the 80s. .It wasn't $1500, or $150. Allowing for inflation, yeah, it's come down. The design and components used
today are the same. But it's not following Moore's Law, because an SCR can't.
The major cost decline for those components was seen long ago and
they are not in a "free fall".

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 16:49:44 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:09:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 06:40:22 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:46:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:



On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), "







wrote:















On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:







On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:01:17 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"















wrote:































Per Stormin Mormon:















I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power.































That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie















because of all the computer-type stuff I have.































Aren't they all "inverter type", now?































No, only the most expensive generators are inverter







type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.







The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price







of the equivalent conventional types.















I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through







the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed







engines anymore.















The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a



cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on



a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You



can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.







The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just



$/transistor.







The prices of all electronic devices are not in a free fall.



Bull****. They have been for forty years.



Here you are, the guy who thought all generators now used
inverters, now telling us how all semiconductor components
are in a free fall regardless of what they are used for.

You really like to lie, Trader. I said semiconductors in general are
in freefall, not just highly integrated semiconductors. Not all
components are. Some a *highly* specialized so are at a premium. Each
class of semiconductors is certainly dropping in price constantly.


The large price drops over time are typically

in either new technology

that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it

gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels.

Or in the application of Moore's

Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size

piece of silicon.



Irrelevant. Because one area is falling faster than another doesn't

mean the bottom isn't dropping out of both. The fact is that it's

getting cheaper to process silicon.


That is just flat out wrong.

You're an idiot, Trader. I've been in the business for 40 years.
*EVERYTHING* is cheaper.

It isn't getting cheaper, it's
getting more expensive.

Absurd.

As you go down in feature size, the
cost of the fabs and the processing increases.. Everything from the filtration needed to maintain the clean room to the cost of the lithography eqpt. A new state of the art fab can
cost $5bil. In the 90s, it was $1bil.

COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.


More irrelevant **** snipped.

You may continue with your lies, now.

On 8/29/2013 7:03 PM, wrote:

**********Snip The Argument**********


I've been in the business for 40 years.
*EVERYTHING* is cheaper.


Things actually kind of flip/flop. I worked in and owned a couple of
radio/TV shops (remember them?) and a funny thing happened with TV's and
the introduction of new technologies. I recall a horizontal output tube
costing $5.00 and a horizontal output transistor costing $25.00 then a
period of time passed and prices flipped. It's been many years since I
tried to purchase any vacuum tubes but I'll bet they're quite expensive
these days. I remember the TV sets that weighed a ton because of the big
power transformer power supplies then a design change had the solid
state horizontal output section becoming the switching power supply for
all the electronics in the set. I can't forget the hybrids with a solid
state chassis except for the horizontal output tube. It finally got to
where the only vacuum tube was the CRT, now that's gone. I used to get
rebuilt 25" replacement picture tubes for repairing TV's all the time.
In the late 1970's I attended a seminar put on by RCA for the local
electronic repair shops where RCA demonstrated the new technology in
their TV sets. It was an all solid state chassis and the fellow from RCA
blew our minds when he turned the line voltage down to 80vac and the set
still had a clear picture which shrank in a bit on the sides. It
was a demonstration of the low voltage tolerance and power regulation of
their new TV sets. Most electronic circuit boards still had discrete
components including IC chips that were soldered through holes in the
boards making replacement of parts quite easy then those darned surface
mount circuit boards showed up making things harder to repair but less
expensive and often more reliable. I remember being able to repair PC
motherboards which had through the hole components that were easy to
replace. Darn, there aren't that many radio/TV repair shops left today.
There seems to be a cell phone shop on every corner now but most of the
consumer electronic devices are pretty much disposable today. I still
don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

TDD

On 8/29/2013 6:37 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

http://martinmanley.org/index2.html

A warning, this is a website of a man that arranged for it to go live
after his planned suicide. However, this is not someone who was
depressed, despairing or suicidal in the normal sense. This is someone
who planned his own death for fourteen months and left everything in
complete order, right down to the place of his death and who would
find him.


The old man looked at his wife and said, "This is all your fault. If it weren't for your bran muffins, I could have been here 10 years ago!"

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:03:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:


You really like to lie, Trader. I said semiconductors in general are

in freefall, not just highly integrated semiconductors.

Here are your exact words:


"The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just
$/transistor. "


Notice the words "all electronics" and "free-fall".




Not all

components are.

Which is what I told you about 6 posts ago.




Some a *highly* specialized so are at a premium. Each

class of semiconductors is certainly dropping in price constantly.



That isn't true either. There are common, mature semiconductors,
that are still being used today, that aren't dropping in
price constantly because there is no way to decrease the
cost. You can still buy an 8031 microcontroller, for example.
It's the most popular microcontroller in the world. It's
been used in everything from cars to business phones.
They hit ~$1 more than a decade ago. Again, the driving trend
where you get steep "free-fall" price drop curves is due to Moore's Law and while that applies to chips where you can continue to shrink the feature size, reduce the die size, it doesn't apply to mature
ICs like the 8031. Hasn't for a long, long time. 7400 type
logic is still used, diodes, discrete transistors, common op
amps, you think the price of those are in a "free-fall"?







The large price drops over time are typically



in either new technology



that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it



gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels.



Or in the application of Moore's



Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size



piece of silicon.







Irrelevant. Because one area is falling faster than another doesn't



mean the bottom isn't dropping out of both.

Again, note the claim that the "bottom is dropping out".
Which of course now you're trying to weasel away from.





The fact is that it's



getting cheaper to process silicon.





That is just flat out wrong.



You're an idiot, Trader. I've been in the business for 40 years.

*EVERYTHING* is cheaper.



And now you're back to making the original claim again.
Boy are you confused. And as always, when you've lost an argument, you start with the name calling.


Still waiting for an explanation of if all electronics
is in a "free-fall", why is the most common of all power
control semiconductor applications, the electronic SCR
based light dimmer, still $15? It was $15 in the 80's.
It's still $15 today. Not what I'd call a "free fall".
Why is an 8051 microcontroller or a 7400 series chip
the same price it was 10 years ago?


And how in the hell could you expect a generator to include
an inverter, when a 6KW inverter sells for about the same
as a basic 6KW generator to begin with? That shows how in
touch you are. Yes, the price of
most power semiconductors has come down in price. But they
aren't in a "free-fall", not declining anywhere near the
rate of semiconductors like memory or CPUs. That's because
the latter two benefit greatly from Moore's Law. It's
what's driving the steep price decreases. Power semiconductors
have benefitted from new advances that have contributed
to price decreases over the years, but they can't benefit
from the "free-fall" you see due to Moore's Law. And it
takes more than just power semiconductors to build an inverter.

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:43:43 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 8/29/2013 7:03 PM, wrote:

**********Snip The Argument**********


I've been in the business for 40 years.
*EVERYTHING* is cheaper.


Things actually kind of flip/flop. I worked in and owned a couple of
radio/TV shops (remember them?) and a funny thing happened with TV's and
the introduction of new technologies. I recall a horizontal output tube
costing $5.00 and a horizontal output transistor costing $25.00 then a
period of time passed and prices flipped.

On a single component level, when technologies change, sure things can
get upside down. At the system level, it's all one way.
Monotonically.

It's been many years since I
tried to purchase any vacuum tubes but I'll bet they're quite expensive
these days. I remember the TV sets that weighed a ton because of the big
power transformer power supplies then a design change had the solid
state horizontal output section becoming the switching power supply for
all the electronics in the set. I can't forget the hybrids with a solid
state chassis except for the horizontal output tube. It finally got to
where the only vacuum tube was the CRT, now that's gone. I used to get
rebuilt 25" replacement picture tubes for repairing TV's all the time.
In the late 1970's I attended a seminar put on by RCA for the local
electronic repair shops where RCA demonstrated the new technology in
their TV sets. It was an all solid state chassis and the fellow from RCA
blew our minds when he turned the line voltage down to 80vac and the set
still had a clear picture which shrank in a bit on the sides. It
was a demonstration of the low voltage tolerance and power regulation of
their new TV sets. Most electronic circuit boards still had discrete
components including IC chips that were soldered through holes in the
boards making replacement of parts quite easy then those darned surface
mount circuit boards showed up making things harder to repair but less
expensive and often more reliable. I remember being able to repair PC
motherboards which had through the hole components that were easy to
replace. Darn, there aren't that many radio/TV repair shops left today.

As others have noted, TVs (monitors) are now throw-away. I don't see
that as a bad thing.

There seems to be a cell phone shop on every corner now but most of the
consumer electronic devices are pretty much disposable today.

That just shows you what the profit margins are on the service (there
is no money in the hardware).

I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

My car doesn't fold up into my briefcase, either.

On 08-30-2013 09:43, The Daring Dufas wrote:
I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/

One hundred thousand dollars: http://mavericklsa.com/

--
Wes Groleau

Alive and Well
http://freepages.religions.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/

On 8/30/2013 11:35 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 08-30-2013 09:43, The Daring Dufas wrote:
I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/

One hundred thousand dollars: http://mavericklsa.com/


I couldn't afford the fuel much less the dang car! ^_^

TDD

On 08-31-2013 03:27, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/30/2013 11:35 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 08-30-2013 09:43, The Daring Dufas wrote:
I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/

One hundred thousand dollars: http://mavericklsa.com/

I couldn't afford the fuel much less the dang car! ^_^

That's my position even if it were a $25 thousand

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....n=sbs&id=33306


I could offer you a

http://xploreair.com/

or a

http://tinyurl.com/k7vwv69


but you have already posted that your condition is not conducive to such.


--
Wes Groleau

Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life
http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin

On 8/31/2013 10:02 AM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 08-31-2013 03:27, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/30/2013 11:35 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 08-30-2013 09:43, The Daring Dufas wrote:
I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/

One hundred thousand dollars: http://mavericklsa.com/

I couldn't afford the fuel much less the dang car! ^_^

That's my position even if it were a $25 thousand

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....n=sbs&id=33306


Cute but there is no room to install a ladder rack. O_o


I could offer you a

http://xploreair.com/


Darn, if I was younger and still making crazy money overseas. ^_^

or a

http://tinyurl.com/k7vwv69


That is so cool. I saw a an electric copter that had what looked like 6
or 8 electric motors and props that a fellow sat in the center of and he
was able to fly it. I think he was part of a German group of electric
copter experimenters. ^_^


but you have already posted that your condition is not conducive to such.


My visiting nurse yells at me for getting out and working with JH on
telecom service and installations but I explained to her that I CAN'T
sit on my butt because I'll hurt so much worse. She's worried about my
weight loss and that I have no appetite but I'm intentionally not
stuffing myself when I eat and the weight is coming off. Getting thinner
helps my heart and my joints. ^_^

TDD

Per Wes Groleau:
Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/

The "vision" version looks like it has the glide path of the average
cement block.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 11:02:27 -0400, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 08-31-2013 03:27, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/30/2013 11:35 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 08-30-2013 09:43, The Daring Dufas wrote:
I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o

Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/

One hundred thousand dollars: http://mavericklsa.com/

I couldn't afford the fuel much less the dang car! ^_^

That's my position even if it were a $25 thousand

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....n=sbs&id=33306

Does it come with a fez?