(Since TDD gets called the N word now and again,
it's a good idea to see what they were really
like. I did get the privilege to meet Jack once,
he is a common sense fellow, and a good man.
Thirteen years after he was 83, most likely dead
and gone to his reward.)

From: "Willard(Jack)"
Subject: Does This Sound Familiar? It Should !!!!!!
Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:33 PM


I,an old man of 83 years, urge each of you to read the
following message very carefully.

Remembering instances mentioned, (if your old enough to)
(if not do a bit of research), as to the end results which
history has documented. Then apply those same like
instances to what has appeared and happened here in our
own country and compare. Then set silently and meditate
awhile before you arrive at a conclusion of what you
believe in your heart, not your wallet, is the right
path for this country to proceed into the future for the
sake of our future generations freedoms, which some of
us, your ancestors and relatives, have fought and died
for on battle fields here and all over the globe. Have
we fought and died in VAIN? Only YOU can answer that
question. May God Bless!

Jack
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
Subject: A little history lesson?
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:22:28 -0600
From: ( Snipped)
To: ( ' ' ' ')

Sound familiar????? GTHhttp://www.edrivera.com/html/nazi.htm
http://www.edrivera.com/html/nazi.htm jh Washington Times Reader
Comment
The Washington Times
June 7,1998 SOCIALISM MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO FESTER IN THIS
COUNTRY; HERE IS WHY!

During the past several months in the American press, the
Democrats have frequently denounced the Republicans as
Nazis due to their attempts to control runaway federal
spending. How very ironic. I remember the Nazis. Let me
share a little about them and recall some of their
exploits.

First of all, 'Nazi' was gutter slang for the verb 'to
nationalize' The Bider-Mienhoff gang gave themselves this
moniker during their early struggles. The official title
of the Nazi Party was 'The National Socialist Workers Party
of Germany' Hitler and the Brownshirts advocated the
nationalization of education, health care, transportation,
national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law
enforcement.

Hitler came to power by turning the working class, unemployed,
and academic elite against the conservative republic. After
Der Fuhrer's election ceased being a political conspiracy
and was transformed into a fashionable social phenomenon,
party membership was especially popularwith educators,
bureaucrats, and the press.Being a Nazi was 'politically
correct.' They called themselves 'The Children of the New
Age of World Order' and looked down their noses at everyone
else. As Hitler acquired more power, he referred to his
critics as 'The Dark Forces of Anarchy and Hatred.' Anyone
who questioned Nazi high-handedness in the German press
was branded a 'Conservative Reactionary.' Joseph Goebbels,
minister of communications, proclaimed a 'New World Order.'

The Nazi reign of terror began with false news reports on
the Jews, Bohemians and Gypsies who were said to be arming
themselves to overthrow the 'New World Order' and Hitler
demanded that all good people register their guns so that
they wouldn't fall into the hands of 'terrorists and madmen.'
Right-wing fanatics of the 'Old Order' who protested firearms
registration were arrested by the S.S. and put in jail for
'fomenting hatred against the Government of the German people.'

Then the Reichstag (government building) was blown up (burned
actually) and Hitler ram-rodded an 'Emergency Anti-Terrorist
Act' through Parliament that gave the Gestapo extraordinary
powers. The leader then declared that for the well-being of
the German people, all private firearms were to be
confiscated by the Gestapo and the Wermotten (federal
law enforcement and military). German citizens who refused
to surrender their guns when the 'jack-boots' (Gestapo) came
calling, were murdered in their homes.

By the way, the Gestapo were the federal marshals' service
of the Third Reich.The S.W.A.T. team was invented and
perfected by the Gestapo to break into the homes of
the enemies of the German people.

When the Policia Bewakken, or local police, refused to
take away guns from townsfolk, they themselves were
disarmed and dragged out into the street and shot to
death by the S.A. and the S.S. Those were Nazi
versions of the B.A.T.F. and the F.B.I. When several
local ministers spoke out against these atrocities,
they were imprisoned and never seen again.

The Gestapo began to confiscate and seize the homes,
businesses, bank accounts, and personal belongings of
wealthy conservative citizens who had prospered in
the old Republic. Pamphleteers who urged revolt
against theNazis were shot on site by national law
enforcement and the military. Gypsies and Jews were
detained and sent to labor camps. Mountain roads
throughout central Europe were closed to prevent the
escape of fugitives into the wilderness, and to
prevent the movement and concealment of partisan
resistance fighters.

Public schools rewrote history and Hitler youth groups
taught the children to report their parents to their
teachers for anti-Nazi remarks. Such parents disappeared.
Paganism became the state religion of the Third Reich
and Christians were widely condemned as 'right wing
fanatics.'

Millions of books were burned first and then people.
Millions of them burned in huge ovens after they were
first gassed to death. Unmarried women were paid large
sums of money to have babies out of wedlock and then
given medals for it. Evil was declared as being good,
and good was condemned as being evil. World Order was
coming and the German people were going to be the
'peacekeepers.'

Yes, indeed, I remember the Nazis and they weren't
Republicans, or 'right wing,' or 'patriots' or
'militias.' They were Socialist monsters.

Thomas Colton Ruthford
Arlington, VA

The question is really how much chit can be on a sandwich and sold to
the public as just what they needed? A whole lot and that includes us
in the US of A. Marketing is amazing.... simply amazing.
http://www.justin.tv/military_history#/w/6537466224/44

Or, instead of made up stories you could try facts.

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

On Monday, August 19, 2013 12:32:25 PM UTC-7, Bob F wrote:
Or, instead of made up stories you could try facts.



http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

Incredible what members who bother to research can deliver to educate us!
Danke schoen!

HB

On 8/19/2013 9:50 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
(Since TDD gets called the N word now and again,
it's a good idea to see what they were really
like. I did get the privilege to meet Jack once,
he is a common sense fellow, and a good man.
Thirteen years after he was 83, most likely dead
and gone to his reward.)

I prefer "Nincompoop" as the "N" word I should be called. Me and JH just
got in from from wiring a corporate office for telephones, data for
computers, printers and fax. I'm a nincompoop for getting down on
the floor to work on the phone and data jacks, also for getting on a
ladder and climbing up into the suspended ceiling to pull in new cable.
We didn't have the young guy who's 50 years old helping us today so we
did all the climbing and crawling. I had to walk back and forth to the
telephone room that was 200 feet down a corridor from the offices we
were working on. I'm in a great deal of pain which makes me a nincompoop
for doing what I did today but a month ago, I wouldn't have been able to
do any of it. I know it's gonna hurt when I do it but my legs are
getting stronger and the pain level is less each time. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote in news:kuu1c8
:

On 8/19/2013 9:50 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
(Since TDD gets called the N word now and again,
it's a good idea to see what they were really
like. I did get the privilege to meet Jack once,
he is a common sense fellow, and a good man.
Thirteen years after he was 83, most likely dead
and gone to his reward.)

I prefer "Nincompoop" as the "N" word I should be called. Me and JH just
got in from from wiring a corporate office for telephones, data for
computers, printers and fax. I'm a nincompoop for getting down on
the floor to work on the phone and data jacks, also for getting on a
ladder and climbing up into the suspended ceiling to pull in new cable.
We didn't have the young guy who's 50 years old helping us today so we
did all the climbing and crawling. I had to walk back and forth to the
telephone room that was 200 feet down a corridor from the offices we
were working on. I'm in a great deal of pain which makes me a nincompoop
for doing what I did today but a month ago, I wouldn't have been able to
do any of it. I know it's gonna hurt when I do it but my legs are
getting stronger and the pain level is less each time. ^_^

TDD


I've been called the N-word, aka Nobody. Funny, the people who called me
that had the same name.

Another thing is that the our world is very different from that of 1930's Europe.

One of the biggest differences is that for the first time in history, people all over the world can talk directly to each other over the internet. It's this one-on-one communication that's directly responsible for the Arab Spring revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Syria. People are no longer afraid to speak their minds.

And, that removes the tool of "propoganda" from the government's tool chest. Before, when a king wanted to go to war, he first had to motivate the people to support that war. And, the easiest way to do that was to spread lies about the people he wanted to go to war with. So, you had propoganda that shaped the opinion of the masses to suit the leader's agenda.

You can't do that now with the one-on-one communication that the internet allows across borders, and that's most of the reason why dictatorships and totalitarian governments severely limit what kind of information people can access over the internet in their countries.

Remember that "Mission Accomplished" speech that George W. Bush gave aboard an aircraft carrier declaring that major military operations in Iraq were over. You couldn't miss it; he made that announcement dressed up in a full g-suit to give you the impression that he'd just finished a bombing sortee over Bagdad.
Well, it turns out that announcement was made on the deck of a US aircraft carrier only a few miles off the coast of San Diego. The podium and news cameras were set up so that the cameras were pointed toward the open ocean. That way, no one would see the US main land in the back ground.

As long as people can talk to one another, we can avoid war. In order to motivate someone sufficiently to risk their lives to kill someone else, they have to be convinced that that other person deserves to be killed, and that doesn't happen when they can talk directly with each other using twitter or facebook or myspace or even internet forums like this one.

Do you nincompoop after taking your nincomlaxative?

Can you bring a scooter chair on these jobs?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/19/2013 5:06 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I prefer "Nincompoop" as the "N" word I should be called. Me and JH just
got in from from wiring a corporate office for telephones, data for
computers, printers and fax. I'm a nincompoop for getting down on
the floor to work on the phone and data jacks, also for getting on a
ladder and climbing up into the suspended ceiling to pull in new cable.
We didn't have the young guy who's 50 years old helping us today so we
did all the climbing and crawling. I had to walk back and forth to the
telephone room that was 200 feet down a corridor from the offices we
were working on. I'm in a great deal of pain which makes me a nincompoop
for doing what I did today but a month ago, I wouldn't have been able to
do any of it. I know it's gonna hurt when I do it but my legs are
getting stronger and the pain level is less each time. ^_^

TDD

On 8/19/2013 4:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Do you nincompoop after taking your nincomlaxative?

Can you bring a scooter chair on these jobs?


That's a hot steaming pile of male bovine droppings! O_o

TDD

You are Al Gore's long lost brother?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/19/2013 5:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/19/2013 4:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Do you nincompoop after taking your nincomlaxative?

Can you bring a scooter chair on these jobs?


That's a hot steaming pile of male bovine droppings! O_o

TDD

In article ,
nestork wrote:


And, that removes the tool of "propoganda" from the government's tool
chest. Before, when a king wanted to go to war, he first had to
motivate the people to support that war. And, the easiest way to do
that was to spread lies about the people he wanted to go to war with.
So, you had propoganda that shaped the opinion of the masses to suit the
leader's agenda.


I admre your optimism, but that isn't my experience. If anything, it
increases the jumble of propaganda messages and makes even more
propaganda outlets available.
"Mission Accomplished" speech that George W. Bush gave
aboard an aircraft carrier declaring that major military operations in
Iraq were over. You couldn't miss it; he made that announcement dressed
up in a full g-suit to give you the impression that he'd just finished a
bombing sortee over Bagdad.
Well, it turns out that announcement was made on the deck of a US
aircraft carrier only a few miles off the coast of San Diego. The
podium and news cameras were set up so that the cameras were pointed
toward the open ocean. That way, no one would see the US main land in
the back ground.
A prime example of exactly what I meant. It was made abundantly clear
at the time that he was welcoming the Lincoln back to the US from a tour
off Iraq. The Mission accomplished banner was put up at the request of
Navy because the Lincoln had done just that and was heading home.
Nowhere in the speech was the term Mission Accomplished ever used
and indeed, Bush specifically stated "We have difficult work to do in
Iraq. We are bringing order to parts of that country that remain
dangerous."
ANd especially telling: "Our mission continues...The War on Terror
continues, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final
victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide."
So not only was there an abundance of propaganda, but the anti-Bush
propaganda won out. So much for making the spreading of lies harder. If
anything it would seem to make the spreading substantially easier.


As long as people can talk to one another, we can avoid war. In order
to motivate someone sufficiently to risk their lives to kill someone
else, they have to be convinced that that other person deserves to be
killed, and that doesn't happen when they can talk directly with each
other using twitter or facebook or myspace or even internet forums like
this one.
IN which alternative universe?
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

Kurt Ullman wrote:
ANd especially telling: "Our mission continues...The War on Terror
continues, yet it is not endless.

Please tell us just exactly what the war in Iraq had to do with the "war on
terror".

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:58:58 -0400, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
nestork wrote:


And, that removes the tool of "propoganda" from the government's tool
chest. Before, when a king wanted to go to war, he first had to
motivate the people to support that war. And, the easiest way to do
that was to spread lies about the people he wanted to go to war with.
So, you had propoganda that shaped the opinion of the masses to suit the
leader's agenda.


I admre your optimism, but that isn't my experience. If anything, it
increases the jumble of propaganda messages and makes even more
propaganda outlets available.
"Mission Accomplished" speech that George W. Bush gave
aboard an aircraft carrier declaring that major military operations in
Iraq were over. You couldn't miss it; he made that announcement dressed
up in a full g-suit to give you the impression that he'd just finished a
bombing sortee over Bagdad.
Well, it turns out that announcement was made on the deck of a US
aircraft carrier only a few miles off the coast of San Diego. The
podium and news cameras were set up so that the cameras were pointed
toward the open ocean. That way, no one would see the US main land in
the back ground.
A prime example of exactly what I meant. It was made abundantly clear
at the time that he was welcoming the Lincoln back to the US from a tour
off Iraq. The Mission accomplished banner was put up at the request of
Navy because the Lincoln had done just that and was heading home.

That was the FIRST story put out. Later stories amended that to say
that the banner was made and brought to the ship by the White House
people and it was the white house people who wanted it put up.


Nowhere in the speech was the term Mission Accomplished ever used
and indeed, Bush specifically stated "We have difficult work to do in
Iraq. We are bringing order to parts of that country that remain
dangerous."

How funny, the reason order needed to be brought to Iraq was because
the US invaded Iraq and blew the place the **** up.


ANd especially telling: "Our mission continues...The War on Terror
continues, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final
victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide."
So not only was there an abundance of propaganda, but the anti-Bush
propaganda won out. So much for making the spreading of lies harder. If
anything it would seem to make the spreading substantially easier.


As long as people can talk to one another, we can avoid war. In order
to motivate someone sufficiently to risk their lives to kill someone
else, they have to be convinced that that other person deserves to be
killed, and that doesn't happen when they can talk directly with each
other using twitter or facebook or myspace or even internet forums like
this one.
IN which alternative universe?

On Monday, August 19, 2013 10:50:12 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
(Since TDD gets called the N word now and again,

it's a good idea to see what they were really

like. I did get the privilege to meet Jack once,

he is a common sense fellow, and a good man.

Thirteen years after he was 83, most likely dead

and gone to his reward.)



From: "Willard(Jack)"

Subject: Does This Sound Familiar? It Should !!!!!!

Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:33 PM





I,an old man of 83 years, urge each of you to read the

following message very carefully.



Remembering instances mentioned, (if your old enough to)

(if not do a bit of research), as to the end results which

history has documented. Then apply those same like

instances to what has appeared and happened here in our

own country and compare. Then set silently and meditate

awhile before you arrive at a conclusion of what you

believe in your heart, not your wallet, is the right

path for this country to proceed into the future for the

sake of our future generations freedoms, which some of

us, your ancestors and relatives, have fought and died

for on battle fields here and all over the globe. Have

we fought and died in VAIN? Only YOU can answer that

question. May God Bless!



Jack

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

Subject: A little history lesson?

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:22:28 -0600

From: ( Snipped)

To: ( ' ' ' ')



Sound familiar????? GTHhttp://www.edrivera.com/html/nazi.htm

http://www.edrivera.com/html/nazi.htm jh Washington Times Reader

Comment

The Washington Times

June 7,1998 SOCIALISM MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO FESTER IN THIS

COUNTRY; HERE IS WHY!



During the past several months in the American press, the

Democrats have frequently denounced the Republicans as

Nazis due to their attempts to control runaway federal

spending. How very ironic. I remember the Nazis. Let me

share a little about them and recall some of their

exploits.



First of all, 'Nazi' was gutter slang for the verb 'to

nationalize' The Bider-Mienhoff gang gave themselves this

moniker during their early struggles. The official title

of the Nazi Party was 'The National Socialist Workers Party

of Germany' Hitler and the Brownshirts advocated the

nationalization of education, health care, transportation,

national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law

enforcement.



Hitler came to power by turning the working class, unemployed,

and academic elite against the conservative republic. After

Der Fuhrer's election ceased being a political conspiracy

and was transformed into a fashionable social phenomenon,

party membership was especially popularwith educators,

bureaucrats, and the press.Being a Nazi was 'politically

correct.' They called themselves 'The Children of the New

Age of World Order' and looked down their noses at everyone

else. As Hitler acquired more power, he referred to his

critics as 'The Dark Forces of Anarchy and Hatred.' Anyone

who questioned Nazi high-handedness in the German press

was branded a 'Conservative Reactionary.' Joseph Goebbels,

minister of communications, proclaimed a 'New World Order.'



The Nazi reign of terror began with false news reports on

the Jews, Bohemians and Gypsies who were said to be arming

themselves to overthrow the 'New World Order' and Hitler

demanded that all good people register their guns so that

they wouldn't fall into the hands of 'terrorists and madmen.'

Right-wing fanatics of the 'Old Order' who protested firearms

registration were arrested by the S.S. and put in jail for

'fomenting hatred against the Government of the German people.'



Then the Reichstag (government building) was blown up (burned

actually) and Hitler ram-rodded an 'Emergency Anti-Terrorist

Act' through Parliament that gave the Gestapo extraordinary

powers. The leader then declared that for the well-being of

the German people, all private firearms were to be

confiscated by the Gestapo and the Wermotten (federal

law enforcement and military). German citizens who refused

to surrender their guns when the 'jack-boots' (Gestapo) came

calling, were murdered in their homes.



By the way, the Gestapo were the federal marshals' service

of the Third Reich.The S.W.A.T. team was invented and

perfected by the Gestapo to break into the homes of

the enemies of the German people.



When the Policia Bewakken, or local police, refused to

take away guns from townsfolk, they themselves were

disarmed and dragged out into the street and shot to

death by the S.A. and the S.S. Those were Nazi

versions of the B.A.T.F. and the F.B.I. When several

local ministers spoke out against these atrocities,

they were imprisoned and never seen again.



The Gestapo began to confiscate and seize the homes,

businesses, bank accounts, and personal belongings of

wealthy conservative citizens who had prospered in

the old Republic. Pamphleteers who urged revolt

against theNazis were shot on site by national law

enforcement and the military. Gypsies and Jews were

detained and sent to labor camps. Mountain roads

throughout central Europe were closed to prevent the

escape of fugitives into the wilderness, and to

prevent the movement and concealment of partisan

resistance fighters.



Public schools rewrote history and Hitler youth groups

taught the children to report their parents to their

teachers for anti-Nazi remarks. Such parents disappeared.

Paganism became the state religion of the Third Reich

and Christians were widely condemned as 'right wing

fanatics.'



Millions of books were burned first and then people.

Millions of them burned in huge ovens after they were

first gassed to death. Unmarried women were paid large

sums of money to have babies out of wedlock and then

given medals for it. Evil was declared as being good,

and good was condemned as being evil. World Order was

coming and the German people were going to be the

'peacekeepers.'



Yes, indeed, I remember the Nazis and they weren't

Republicans, or 'right wing,' or 'patriots' or

'militias.' They were Socialist monsters.



Thomas Colton Ruthford

Arlington, VA

What a crock of capitalist religious bull****. Nazis were Catholic and granted immunity and came to the US to take over the government. Bush made a fortune manufacturing ammunition for the Nazis. Get the **** out of my country you mormon piece of ****.

On Monday, August 19, 2013 7:28:05 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
Kurt Ullman wrote:

ANd especially telling: "Our mission continues...The War on Terror

continues, yet it is not endless.



Please tell us just exactly what the war in Iraq had to do with the "war on

terror".

Chicken ****.
Violently Overthrow the US government. God is a piece of ****.

No, the Nazis weren't Catholics. Sure, they hated Jews, Mormons and homosexuals just like Catholics, but they weren't actually Catholic.

Nazi propoganda was that thousands of years ago in Germany there existed a race of blonde haired blue eyed caucasians called the "Arians" that were a race of superior humans, with almost mystical powers. Nazis believed that the German people had descended from the Arians, but that the Arian blood had been diluted by intermarriage with sub-humans like Jews, Mormons, homosexuals, gypsies, and of course, Polacks, Czechs, and chimpanzees until most of what was left was just brown haired brown eyed Germans. Much of Nazi culture revolved around restoring the Arians as the Master Race of the World, and doing that meant having to exterminate all the sub-human races that might once again threaten to dilute Arian blood. Naturally, that was done by killing all the sub-humans with a baseball bat. So, only PURE germans who didn't have anything except German blood in their veins could join the Nazi party. If your mother was Polish or your father was a Czech, you could remain a German citizen, but you weren't welcome in the Nazi party.

The holocaust wasn't just a Jewish phenomenon. Nazis killed Mormons, homosexuals, gypsies, and people who were mentally retarded with the same enthusiasm and zeal with which they killed Jews. It's just that in Europe at the time, there were far more Jews to kill.

Also, since Martin Luther did his thing by nailing 99 complaints on some church door back in the 1400's, almost all Germans who weren't Jews, Mormons, Gypsies, homosexual or mentally retarded, were Lutherans; not Catholics. It was Martin Luther that caused a split in the Catholic Church in Germany, and millions of Germans denounced the doctrine of Catholicizm that salvation could only be obtained through adherance to the teachings and doctrine of the Holy Roman Church in favour of the ideas of Martin Luther, who professed that salvation came from within each person when they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal lord and saviour. That is, you did not need the blessing of the local Bishop or the Pope in Rome to get into Heaven, and that was heresy to the local Bishop and the Pope in Rome.

On 08-20-2013 01:02, nestork wrote:
killing them with a baseball bat. So, only PURE germans who didn't have
anything except German blood in their veins could join the Nazi party.

With a special exception for Adolf himself.

And, since Martin Luther nailed 99 complaints on some church door back
in the 1500's, almost all Germans who weren't Jews, Mormons, Gypsies,
homosexual or mentally retarded, were Lutherans; not Catholics.

Even after the reformation, Roman Catholics (RC) have always been
a sizable portion of the German population.

I don't know the percentages in Hitler's time, but today RC and
Protestants are each about thirty percent of Germany's population.

--
Wes Groleau

€œBrigham Young agrees to confine himself to one woman,
if every member of Congress will do the same.€�
€” Weekly Republican, 1869

nestork wrote:
US President is the Enemy;3109585 Wrote:

What a crock of capitalist religious bull****. Nazis were Catholic
and granted immunity and came to the US to take over the government.
Bush made a fortune manufacturing ammunition for the Nazis. Get the
**** out of my country you mormon piece of ****.


No, the Nazis weren't Catholics. Sure, they hated Jews, Mormons and
homosexuals just like Catholics, but they weren't actually Catholic.

Don't forget the trade unionists that the "liberal" Nazis hated.

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message

Gee Kurt, what are you doing in a Nazi thread? (-:

In article ,

You, too, Nestork. I guess now that you've fed the trolls, I have to
provide desert.

"Mission Accomplished" speech that George W. Bush gave
aboard an aircraft carrier declaring that major military operations in
Iraq were over. You couldn't miss it; he made that announcement dressed
up in a full g-suit to give you the impression that he'd just finished a
bombing sortie over Baghdad.

No, no. That was just the only thing he had in the closet that was clean
that day. (-:

Well, it turns out that announcement was made on the deck of a US
aircraft carrier only a few miles off the coast of San Diego. The
podium and news cameras were set up so that the cameras were pointed
toward the open ocean. That way, no one would see the US main land in
the back ground.

A prime example of exactly what I meant. It was made abundantly clear
at the time that he was welcoming the Lincoln back to the US from a tour
off Iraq.

"Abundantly clear?" Not a word I would use to describe a clearly contrived
photo op. It strains credulity to believe that the Whitehouse PR team
wasn't pushing very hard to make it seem the war in Iraq was "wrapping up."
Given the huge number of staffers that travel with the President it's very
hard to believe that they had nothing to do with the banner's creation or in
pointing the ship so that it looked far out at sea. It was, in fact, within
chopper range and a helicopter would have been a much more appropriate and
safer method of transportation to the carrier - unless you wanted to project
the image of a macho warrior President. It was a stupid risk to take for a
PR stunt.

The Mission accomplished banner was put up at the request of
Navy because the Lincoln had done just that and was heading home.

Jeez. Bush was the CinC. That means he *runs* the Navy. That means naval
personnel do NOTHING that's not approved by the Whitehouse, especially in
an incredibly carefully staged presidential photo-op. To believe otherwise
is just not credible. They tried to pull a fast one and got caught. Simple
as that. It happens to Democrats and Republicans alike.

Nowhere in the speech was the term Mission Accomplished ever used

That's because Rumsfeld saw the phrase when vetting an advance copy of the
speech and DEMANDED they remove the phrase. The Whitehouse staff figured
out a way to say what they (and Bush, I think, as well) wanted to say
anyway. They just resorted to a slight misdirection in the form of a HUGE
banner with the words: "Mission Accomplished." While it didn't come out of
his mouth *that* day, it was strongly implied by that huge banner.

and indeed, Bush specifically stated "We have difficult work to do in
Iraq. We are bringing order to parts of that country that remain
dangerous."

Yep. That's the boring part that people would pay less attention to and
that might even be edited out for time. But the still photographs of Bush
in front of the huge banner wearing a flight suit had no "abundantly clear"
explanation attached. That was the ultimate goal of the Whitehouse because
it gave them plausible deniability, poked Rumsfeld (perhaps the most hated
Cabinet member in the Whitehouse) and projected the exactly the message they
wanted to project.

The picture below was clearly the desired result because it revealed no
"abundantly clear" indication it concerned the just the ending of a single
tour of duty of the carrier.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...complished.jpg

It was as naked a misdirect as you get in the PR business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission...plished_speech says, with
footnotes:

The White House claimed that the banner was requested by the crew of the
ship, who did not have the facilities for producing such a banner.
Afterward, the administration and naval sources stated that the banner was
the Navy's idea, White House staff members made the banner, and it was hung
by the U.S. Navy personnel. White House spokesman Scott McClellan told CNN,
"We took care of the production of it. We have people to do those things.
But the Navy actually put it up."[8] According to John Dickerson of Time
magazine, the White House later conceded that they hung the banner but still
insists it had been done at the request of the crew members.[9]

"Later conceded" is politespeak for "admitted they were lying when they were
caught."

ANd especially telling: "Our mission continues...The War on Terror
continues, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final
victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide."

If you believe that huge banner happened by accident I have a bridge to sell
you. Bush was not the pilot, he's not carrier-landing rated. Why would he
even BE there if the goal wasn't to project that "something" was completed?
Does it seem likely that the President would dramatically fly onto a carrier
at sea just to note their (temporary) return from sea duty? It's pretty
clear the whole photo-op including the banner came right out of the
Whitehouse. It was an obviously pre-planned and well-choreographed photo
opportunity that relied on several levels of deception.

So not only was there an abundance of propaganda, but the anti-Bush
propaganda won out. So much for making the spreading of lies harder. If
anything it would seem to make the spreading substantially easier.

Nestork was right, I'm afraid. That whole little charade was meant to
mislead from the very beginning and it was only when various news
organizations began to dig deeper did the Whitehouse backtrack and say "we
made the banner, we hung the banner, but the Navy *asked* us to do it.
After all, we're just the personal staff of the Commander-in-Chief - we do
whatever the crew of a Navy ship tells us." Uh huh.

Doesn't sound so credible when you look at it that way and when you consider
his speech a month later:

Bush did offer a "Mission Accomplished" message to the troops in
Afghanistan at Camp As Sayliyah on June 5, 2003 - about a month after the
aircraft carrier speech: "America sent you on a mission to remove a grave
threat and to liberate an oppressed people, and that mission has been
accomplished."[12]

In January 2009, Bush said that "Clearly, putting 'Mission Accomplished' on
an aircraft carrier was a mistake".[16]

The press experts at the Whitehouse knew that the whole landing would boil
down to a nice, handy and very misleading news "bite" showing Bush as the
triumphant warrior/leader in front of a huge "Mission Accomplished" banner-
that's *real* propaganda. Sorry, but your version of events sounds a little
"Rosemary Woods-ish." I find it interesting considering how convinced you
are that the press was being misleading by not including "What did he look
like?" regarding GZ's "he's black" comment. The whole "Mission
Accomplished" event was textbook example of the concept of "misleading."

--
Bobby G.

References[edit source | edit]
1.. ^ a b "Viking (S-3B)". National Museum of Naval Aviation. Archived
from the original on January 13, 2009. Retrieved December 1, 2008.
2.. ^ Globalsecurity.org
3.. ^ Lyke, M.L. (May 2, 2003). "Commander in chief's visit sets aircraft
carrier's crew abuzz". Seattle Post-Intelligencer. Retrieved April 20, 2009.
4.. ^ Richard Nixon had landed aboard the USS Hornet in a helicopter for
the Apollo 11 recovery, but not in an arrested landing. Blair, Don (2004).
Splashdown! NASA and the Navy. Turner Publishing Company. p. 161. ISBN
978-1-56311-985-9. OCLC 56563004. Retrieved April 20, 2009.
5.. ^ "'Mission Accomplished' Whodunit". CBS News. October 29, 2003.
Archived from the original on June 18, 2006. Retrieved June 7, 2006.
6.. ^ Byron York on Presidential Lies on National Review Online
7.. ^ 'Mission Accomplished' Whodunit - Oct. 29, 2003
8.. ^ "White House pressed on 'mission accomplished' sign". CNN. October
27, 2003. Retrieved April 21, 2010.
9.. ^ "Bush's 'Bannergate' Shuffle". Time. November 1, 2003. Retrieved
April 21, 2010.
10.. ^ a b "Text Of Bush Speech". CBS News. May 1, 2003. Archived from the
original on May 25, 2006. Retrieved June 7, 2006.
11.. ^ DefenseLink News Transcript: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Interviews with Mr. Bob Woodward - July 6 and 7, 2006
12.. ^ Keen, Judy (June 5, 2003). "Bush to troops: Mission accomplished".
USA Today. Retrieved April 21, 2010.
13.. ^ "'Mission Accomplished' Revisited". CBS News. April 30, 2004.
Archived from the original on May 28, 2006. Retrieved June 7, 2006.
14.. ^ "Rumsfeld: Major combat over in Afghanistan". CNN. May 1, 2003.
Retrieved April 21, 2010.
15.. ^ Bush Says He Regrets Use of Iraq `Mission Accomplished' Banner,
Holly Roswenkrantz, Nov 12, 2008, Bloomberg News.
16.. ^ "Seeking a Legacy, Bush Cites Security". Time. January 12, 2009.
Retrieved April 21, 2010.
17.. ^ "Mission Not Accomplished". Time. June 10, 2003. Archived from the
original on April 20, 2010. Retrieved April 21, 2010.
18.. ^ White House Press Briefing for April 30, 2008
19.. ^ May 5, 2008 The Daily Show clip commenting on the famous banner.
As long as people can talk to one another, we can avoid war. In order
to motivate someone sufficiently to risk their lives to kill someone
else, they have to be convinced that that other person deserves to be
killed, and that doesn't happen when they can talk directly with each
other using twitter or facebook or myspace or even internet forums like
this one.
IN which alternative universe?
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

Remember when Rumsfeld said the Iraq war would last "maybe 6 months". They sure
had it all figured out.

That sounds like a "Blackhawk down" moment.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/20/2013 5:32 PM, Bob F wrote:
Remember when Rumsfeld said the Iraq war
would last "maybe 6 months". They sure
had it all figured out.

On 8/19/2013 9:50 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
(Since TDD gets called the N word now and again,

I was a Nincompoop again today. JH and Stinky went out to a job last
night to pull in a cable for a new phone at a retail store but the
corporate dispatcher wouldn't let them do it. Since Stinky was working
for someone else this morning, I had to go out on the job with JH at
7:30am, we got back after 1:00pm and we're both in a lot of pain because
we didn't have enough time to recover from the last outing. My hospice
nurse is going to yell at me about it even though she knows I refuse to
sit on my butt. I doubled up on pain meds which I hate because I despise
drugs. O_o

TDD

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Remember when Rumsfeld said the Iraq war would last "maybe 6 months". They
sure
had it all figured out.

In fact, had we withdrawn when we determined there were no nuclear or
chemical weapons lying about, we might have averted the whole crash of 2008.
I was astonished that we succumbed to "mission creep" so profoundly because
it had been so thoroughly studied by the DoD and taught at the various
service academies and colleges.

Now Iraq is plunging back into sectarian violence at the worst levels in
five years. We sure helped them, didn't we? I don't know why we're so
intent on bring "democracy" to tribal cultures that will always value
tribe/clan unity over national unity. We made sure they got the vote in
Gaza and they elected Hamas. We made sure they got the vote in Egypt and
they elected the Muslim Brotherhood.

It may turn out that the cultural differences between the West and the
Middle East means that strongmen like Hussein, Assad and Mubarak are the
only way to keep order in such societies.

--
Bobby G.

Sorry to hear that. I've been out to two calls today, which
is really nice. One was to fix some locks at a retail store.
That was a mess. The company didn't have up to date insurance
with the mall, and I got delayed a lot.

Met HVAC repair guy I met on earlier job. He'll consider if
he's up to his eyes in work, send me out to do diagnostic,
and he can return with the parts and do the repair later.
I need the involvement, and the experience. He needs more
arms and legs on the job.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/21/2013 4:19 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I was a Nincompoop again today. JH and Stinky went out to a job last
night to pull in a cable for a new phone at a retail store but the
corporate dispatcher wouldn't let them do it. Since Stinky was working
for someone else this morning, I had to go out on the job with JH at
7:30am, we got back after 1:00pm and we're both in a lot of pain because
we didn't have enough time to recover from the last outing. My hospice
nurse is going to yell at me about it even though she knows I refuse to
sit on my butt. I doubled up on pain meds which I hate because I despise
drugs. O_o

TDD

On 08-21-2013 16:27, Robert Green wrote:
It may turn out that the cultural differences between the West and the
Middle East means that strongmen like Hussein, Assad and Mubarak are the
only way to keep order in such societies.

Culture can change. But a culture of dozens of generations of fighting
won't be changed by a few years of more fighting.

Now if we were to "enforce" democracy for three generations--which we
shouldn't do even if it were possible, which it isn't--then MAYBE
something would be accomplished.

--
Wes Groleau

€œGrant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
the courage to change the one I can;
and the wisdom to know it's me.€�
€” unknown

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
On 08-21-2013 16:27, Robert Green wrote:
It may turn out that the cultural differences between the West and the
Middle East means that strongmen like Hussein, Assad and Mubarak are the
only way to keep order in such societies.

Culture can change. But a culture of dozens of generations of fighting
won't be changed by a few years of more fighting.

Sometimes, we can win nations over to our side without firing a shot. The
best example of that is "Red" China. We fought proxy wars with them for
years but we never had to engage them directly (recently) for them to change
their culture from total socialism to a very capitalistic-leaning one. We
did it remarkably quickly. We won their "hearts and minds" without have to
invade them, blockade them or declare war on them. The biggest country on
earth. Even with that object lesson before our eyes, we still believe we
can force change on people who hate us.

Anyone who's had kids knows how difficult it is to force them to do
something they don't want to do. People, tribes, cultures and countries
tend to react badly when they perceive something is being forced upon them.

Now if we were to "enforce" democracy for three generations--which we
shouldn't do even if it were possible, which it isn't--then MAYBE
something would be accomplished.

Change has to come from within, just as it did for the US during the Civil
War. No matter how many times we've tried to "cut the heads" off the Taliban
and Al-Qaeda, they always grow back. Greek mythology had that problem
well-described 1,000's of years ago.

http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Hydra?t=anon

Maybe we'll learn the moral of that story. Someday.

--
Bobby G.

On 08-22-2013 10:46, Robert Green wrote:
"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
Now if we were to "enforce" democracy for three generations--which we
shouldn't do even if it were possible, which it isn't--then MAYBE
something would be accomplished.

Change has to come from within, just as it did for the US during the Civil

What I am saying is that _IF_ it were possible (it ain't) to control
things over there so that there were an illusion of freedom and peace
for three generations or more, when no one is still around who remembers
the way it used to be, then it might stick.

--
Wes Groleau

A pessimist says the glass is half empty.
An optimist says the glass is half full.
An engineer says somebody made the glass
twice as big as it needed to be.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but the US had little to do with the conversion of China to the manufacturing powerhouse that it is today.

It's the fact that Chinese people were working for less than 1 US dollar per day that resulted in their manufactured goods being surprisingly cheap on world markets, and that led to Chinese factories growing at the expense of manufacturers in Europe, Japan and North America as China slowly opened itself up to trade with the rest of the world.

The Communist Party in China embraced the manufacturing economy that their low wages supported because they saw it as a way for China to pull itself out of poverty, and that's largely what happened, and is still happening. It was the fact that you had 1.2 billion people willing to work for $1 per day that resulted in China becoming the world's widget factory, not anything the US did. It was just the Chinese government exploiting it's own people's cheap labour that brought about the capitalist transition.

Even now, many large European, Japanese, and American companies (like Panasonic and Honda motorcycles) have set up factories in China as a means of competing with Chinese manufacturers.

The USA had a larger role in the collapse of the USSR than it did in the rise of China. The USA effectively forced the collapse of the USSR by forcing them to spend more on their military and foreign aid to countries like Cuba than they could afford to for years and years and years. When Reagan first proposed his Star Wars initiative, Gorbachev realized that the USSR simply couldn't continue spending money they couldn't afford to build weapons they couldn't use because it would mean the end of the World if they did. There's some degree of wisdom in knowing when to quit, and that's exactly what Gorbachev decided to do. And, with the end of the cold war came the collapse of the Soviet Union because Russia no longer needed to surround itself with puppet governments to feel secure against an attack from NATO. And so, with the collapse of the USSR came the collapse of the Berlin Wall.

Here in Winnipeg there is a popular German restaurant on Pembina Highway less than a mile from where I live. When the Berlin wall collapsed, the owner of that restaurant paid a pile of money to have a section of it shipped to his Restaurant in Winnipeg. He set it up on the grass in front of his restaurant, and I must have driven by it a thousand times. It was concrete, in an "L" shape, about 6 feet wide and about 10 to 12 feet high. It was covered with grafitti up to a height of about 7 feet on one side, and spotless on the other, so that's consistent with what I expected. The other side was the strip of land between east and west Berlin where the land mines and barbed wire were.

In article ,
Wes Groleau wrote:

On 08-22-2013 10:46, Robert Green wrote:
"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
Now if we were to "enforce" democracy for three generations--which we
shouldn't do even if it were possible, which it isn't--then MAYBE
something would be accomplished.

Change has to come from within, just as it did for the US during the Civil

What I am saying is that _IF_ it were possible (it ain't) to control
things over there so that there were an illusion of freedom and peace
for three generations or more, when no one is still around who remembers
the way it used to be, then it might stick.

I am not quite as sanguine since a lot of the problem over there are
related to things that happened, quite literally, a thousand or more
years ago. Hard to think that even 2-3 generations would work all that
out.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On 08-23-2013 08:06, Kurt Ullman wrote:
Wes Groleau wrote:
What I am saying is that _IF_ it were possible (it ain't) to control
things over there so that there were an illusion of freedom and peace
for three generations or more, when no one is still around who remembers
the way it used to be, then it might stick.

I am not quite as sanguine since a lot of the problem over there are
related to things that happened, quite literally, a thousand or more
years ago. Hard to think that even 2-3 generations would work all that
out.

Yes, the culture has been what it is for a millenium. BUT, the people
today who keep it going haven't been learning it for a thousand years.
They learned "this is the way things are" from the way things are.

My hypothesis, which is not testable, is that if there were some way to
make "the way things are" different and keep them different, then
the old folks would resist, the next generation would grudgingly accept,
and (assuming that different were also better), the third generation
would assimilate.

But again, that's just an untestable hypothesis. I'm still firmly
convinced that you can't make a significant change in culture in only
one generation, much less in ten years.

--
Wes Groleau

€œThere are more people worthy of blame
than there is blame to go around."