I have one of those supposedly self-cleaning pools, which isn't
cleaning all that well - so - I was just wondering how "normal"
pools work before I turn off the cleaning system completely.

My basic question is "How does a normal pool mix up the water?", and,
"How does a normal pool suck water from the skimmers?"

I'm guessing there is no mixing of water in a normal pool; and I'm
guessing the skimmers suck water from the surface and from below the
surface.

To explain why I ask these simple questions ... in my pool, there are
about 15 pop-up heads that clean debris by mixing up the water, pushing
the water and debris to the deep end of the pool, where a steep-sloped
entrapment basin is used to funnel water & debris out via the one
main drain at the deepest point in the pool.

These 15 PCC2000 pop-up heads all work off a single pump, where the
flow of water is *not* filtered. The water goes from the two skimmers
to the cleaner pump and back to the 15 pop-up heads via two Paramount
water valves (in a setup called a 9-port system) on the pool deck.

The main pool (exclusive of spa) has one floor drain and two wall
drains, one of which is at the deep end near the floor drain, and the
other of which is below the skimmer in the shallow end.

Note: The spa has two drains on the floor, and a separate pump solely
for the water jets. Plus it has some of the 15 pop-up heads.

The reason I ask the two questions is two-fold:
1. I plan on turning off the (ineffective) cleaning system for a while.
2. I don't understand the wall drain underneath one skimmer
(i.e., I'm not sure if it's for the cleaning system, or if it's for
the filtering system.)

If I turn off the (currently ineffective) cleaning system, then the
pool water will still filter from the single main floor drain and
from the two spa floor drains (and, I guess, from the two wall drains).

But, nothing will mix the water (and I'll have to vacuum debris, but,
there isn't all that much debris in the summer anyway).

Hence my two (seemingly basic) questions:
Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter?
Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 02:26:57 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

The reason I ask the two questions is two-fold:
1. I plan on turning off the (ineffective) cleaning system for a while.
2. I don't understand the wall drain underneath one skimmer
(i.e., I'm not sure if it's for the cleaning system, or if it's for
the filtering system.)

BTW, has you ever *rebuilt* your PCC2000 water valve innards?
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/9...6fef3399_z.jpg

My 9-port system seem to be clean and working - but the pistons
seem to be sticking - such that the water pressure is in the red
zone (at about 8 psi for both water valves, steady).
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/9...23362334_z.jpg

Also, does anyone know what this thing is supposed to do?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/9...83b1432b_z.jpg

Is it missing an internal part?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/9...4e434f85_z.jpg

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 10:26:57 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
I have one of those supposedly self-cleaning pools, which isn't

cleaning all that well - so - I was just wondering how "normal"

pools work before I turn off the cleaning system completely.



My basic question is "How does a normal pool mix up the water?", and,

"How does a normal pool suck water from the skimmers?"



I'm guessing there is no mixing of water in a normal pool; and I'm

guessing the skimmers suck water from the surface and from below the

surface.



To explain why I ask these simple questions ... in my pool, there are

about 15 pop-up heads that clean debris by mixing up the water, pushing

the water and debris to the deep end of the pool, where a steep-sloped

entrapment basin is used to funnel water & debris out via the one

main drain at the deepest point in the pool.



These 15 PCC2000 pop-up heads all work off a single pump, where the

flow of water is *not* filtered. The water goes from the two skimmers

to the cleaner pump and back to the 15 pop-up heads via two Paramount

water valves (in a setup called a 9-port system) on the pool deck.



The main pool (exclusive of spa) has one floor drain and two wall

drains, one of which is at the deep end near the floor drain, and the

other of which is below the skimmer in the shallow end.



Note: The spa has two drains on the floor, and a separate pump solely

for the water jets. Plus it has some of the 15 pop-up heads.



The reason I ask the two questions is two-fold:

1. I plan on turning off the (ineffective) cleaning system for a while.

2. I don't understand the wall drain underneath one skimmer

(i.e., I'm not sure if it's for the cleaning system, or if it's for

the filtering system.)



If I turn off the (currently ineffective) cleaning system, then the

pool water will still filter from the single main floor drain and

from the two spa floor drains (and, I guess, from the two wall drains).



But, nothing will mix the water (and I'll have to vacuum debris, but,

there isn't all that much debris in the summer anyway).



Hence my two (seemingly basic) questions:

Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter?

I don't know about all pools, but here the Polaris pool cleaner
wanders around vacuuming up stuff on the bottom. Whatever it
doesn't catch, dirt so fine it passes through the Polaris bag,
etc, winds up kicked up in the water. It also has a tail with
a foam scrub on it that moves around and while it's rubbing
the pool surface, dirt gets kicked up. Once stirred up, it
remains in the water for awhile, with some of it making it's
way to one of the skimmers or the bottom drain.




Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?

No wall drains here, just two skimmers, one bottom drain.

On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 02:26:57 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Hence my two (seemingly basic) questions:
Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter?
Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?

My pool sweeper line connects to the pool wall vacuum port. Operated
by a Jandy valve at the pump basket. Water is filtered.

Sample (not the exact same on mine).

http://kreepykrauly.org/images/Figure%2010.jpg

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...

On 7/3/2013 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:
I have one of those supposedly self-cleaning pools, which isn't
cleaning all that well - so - I was just wondering how "normal"
pools work before I turn off the cleaning system completely.

My basic question is "How does a normal pool mix up the water?", and,
"How does a normal pool suck water from the skimmers?"


I'm surprised your system doesn't work. You might have other issues. Do
you regularly check your chemicals?

I don't remember all the details of your pool but there are several
factors. Filter medium being primary.

In answer to your question, the water in a regular pool mixes by:

Current, like in your pool

Swimmers

Brushing (ugh)

Robots (ie. Polaris)

I brush or run my Polaris every day. I can be a PITA really. The concept
of your pool is a good one but I might question the execution. If it's
otherwise working properly and, the chemicals are right, I'd question
the filter medium.

On 7/4/2013 8:36 AM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 02:26:57 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Hence my two (seemingly basic) questions:
Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter?
Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?

My pool sweeper line connects to the pool wall vacuum port. Operated
by a Jandy valve at the pump basket. Water is filtered.

Sample (not the exact same on mine).

http://kreepykrauly.org/images/Figure%2010.jpg

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...


That's an interesting setup. We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the
Polaris.

My wall attachment doesn't work well so I have to screw it in each time
I use it.

http://tinyurl.com/pzzfwpb

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server36....1280.1280.jpg

I've tried all kinds of lubes and replaced the o-ring but the thing
always gets stuck.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 05:21:01 -0700, wrote:

Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter?
... the Polaris pool cleaner ... dirt gets kicked up.

I see. The pool cleaner stirs things up so that they can get to
the main drain.

Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?
No wall drains here, just two skimmers, one bottom drain.

There must be a "safety" drain somewhere, isn't there?

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 06:36:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...

Hi Oren,

Oh no! I wish you had mentioned that a month ago ... as I *do* have
a plugged-off vacuum line in the center of the pool:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/9...6320eff2_z.jpg

Apparently they put them in when they build the pool, but the
pipe is plugged off where it comes up at the pump equipment:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/9...c92649f4_z.jpg

Too bad I hadn't thought of this when I was replumbing my filter
pump, as I would liked to have worked in a hookup to the filter!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/9...d61036fe_z.jpg

PS: I'm new to Flickr, so, I'm not sure how to tell you to link
to the larger pictures.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/9...af185a01_o.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/9...1ddddc9b_o.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7410/9...387e15df_o.jpg

Maybe these work?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:47:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the Polaris.

I have a 1.65 HP (net) pump that I could connect to the plumbed
vacuum line.

Does the vacuum system you use work well (other than the attachment
to the wall)?

And, how many filter inlets do you have in addition to the main
drain?

I have a total of 5 filter inlets, only one of which is the main
drain.

1. Main drain (on floor of deep end)
2. Safety drain (on wall near main drain)
3. Spa drain (on floor of spa)
4. Spa safety drain? (next to spa drain on floor)
5. Drain on wall under one skimmer (I'm not sure what it's for)

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:47:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the Polaris.

I have a 1.65 HP (net) pump that I could connect to the plumbed
vacuum line.

Does the vacuum system you use work well (other than the attachment
to the wall)?

And, how many filter inlets do you have in addition to the main
drain?

I have a total of 5 filter inlets, only one of which is the main
drain.

1. Main drain (on floor of deep end)
2. Safety drain (on wall near main drain)
3. Spa drain (on floor of spa)
4. Spa safety drain? (next to spa drain on floor)
5. Drain on wall under one skimmer (I'm not sure what it's for)

On 7/4/2013 12:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:47:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the Polaris.

I'm pretty sure it's 3/4 hp. I need to replace it soon.

I have a 1.65 HP (net) pump that I could connect to the plumbed
vacuum line.


1.65 hp is the size of my main pump. I'd have to have a divert-er to run
the Polaris with that.

Does the vacuum system you use work well (other than the attachment
to the wall)?


Works great but they are not cheap. The cheapest is about $420 and you
need the plumbing and the booster.

It's usually best to get the "fine silt" bag. YMMV


And, how many filter inlets do you have in addition to the main
drain?


Inlets to the main pump?

One.

Then it diverts to the spa drain, pool drain, then two skimmers. The
main pump has 4 potential inlets.

The booster pump runs independently. I thought I saw a picture of your
booster. But with that plumbing nightmare you have....


I have a total of 5 filter inlets, only one of which is the main
drain.

1. Main drain (on floor of deep end)
2. Safety drain (on wall near main drain)
3. Spa drain (on floor of spa)
4. Spa safety drain? (next to spa drain on floor)
5. Drain on wall under one skimmer (I'm not sure what it's for)

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:33:00 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I'm surprised your system doesn't work. You might have other issues.
Oh, you're right about that!
The self-cleaning system is a maintenance nightmare.

For example, these water valves are not working right:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/9...6fef3399_z.jpg

I think the pistons are sticking:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/9...23362334_z.jpg

Plus, there is this "Flo-Control" thing that I don't understand:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/9...83b1432b_z.jpg

The labeling implies there is a valve under it, but there's nothing
when I open the cap (maybe something is missing?):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/9...4e434f85_z.jpg

Do you regularly check your chemicals?

Chemicals are great. I keep the chlorine at about 10 ppm (yes, I know
that's way higher than most of you - but I have to keep the algae
down). The PH is always about 7.5, and the rest of the stuff I
periodically check at the pool store and it is generally good (although
phosphates are often on the high side).

I don't remember all the details of your pool but there are several
factors. Filter medium being primary.

I just cleaned the cartridge filters. My problem is debris, not
clean water. There is no vacuum. So the cleaning system has to
sweep all the debris to the main drain for it to pick it all up.

The skimmers take care of surface debris, but the skimmers are not
filtered so anything not caught in the baskets is pushed back into
the pool from the skimmers.

the water in a regular pool mixes by:
Current, like in your pool
Swimmers
Brushing (ugh)
Robots (ie. Polaris)

Hmmmmm....
Current - mine sets up a current from the pop-up heads
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8181024.png

Swimmers - mine is almost never swum in (unless we have visitors)
Brushing - ugh... I brush the walls of green algae every day
Robots - Hmmm... I have no robots (other than the pop-up heads)

The concept of your pool is good but I might question the execution.

After reading the following references, I'm now pretty sure that the
whole system isn't working properly - and specifically - my water valves:

0. Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/ParamountHowTo
1. Especially this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHlXfgAX7Y
2. PC2000 Manual: http://www.1paramount.com/products/a...temsManual.pdf
3. Water Valve Manual: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com...ater_Valve.pdf
4. Blog: http://kurtatparamount.com/technical-forum
5. FAQ: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/faq/pcc.php
6. System Description: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/pcc/
7. Water Valve Description: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/valve/

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:01:03 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Works great but they are not cheap. The cheapest is about $420
and you need the plumbing and the booster.

I already have the plumbing. It's just capped off at the pumps:
(I'm not sure how we're supposed to link to flickr photos so
these three are all the same photo showing the capped off pipe):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...6256/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3783/9...1eea9989_o.jpg

I already have three 1.65HP (net) pumps, so, I would plan on using
one of those if I were to tie in the plumbed vacuum line.

I guess I have two options:
a. Tie the (currently unused) vacuum line to the booster pump or to the
spa pump (neither of which is filtered); so the Polaris would need to
then have its own bag.

b. Or, tie that vacuum line to the filter pump, and then, I guess,
the Polaris would then not need to have its own bag.

I've never used a vacuum before (other than pole-ing by hand with a
hose tied to the self-cleaning-system debris-canister port), so,
I'm not sure which is the best way to go (filtered or unfiltered).

On 7/4/2013 1:07 PM, Danny D wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:33:00 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I'm surprised your system doesn't work. You might have other issues.
Oh, you're right about that!
The self-cleaning system is a maintenance nightmare.

For example, these water valves are not working right:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/9...6fef3399_z.jpg

I think the pistons are sticking:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/9...23362334_z.jpg

Plus, there is this "Flo-Control" thing that I don't understand:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/9...83b1432b_z.jpg

The labeling implies there is a valve under it, but there's nothing
when I open the cap (maybe something is missing?):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/9...4e434f85_z.jpg

Do you regularly check your chemicals?

Chemicals are great. I keep the chlorine at about 10 ppm (yes, I know
that's way higher than most of you - but I have to keep the algae
down). The PH is always about 7.5, and the rest of the stuff I
periodically check at the pool store and it is generally good (although
phosphates are often on the high side).

Get the PH to 7.2 and phosphates to zero. Two no brainers. I think the
chlorine is too high and if you want the chlorine to be more effective
lower the PH.



I don't remember all the details of your pool but there are several
factors. Filter medium being primary.

I just cleaned the cartridge filters. My problem is debris, not
clean water. There is no vacuum. So the cleaning system has to
sweep all the debris to the main drain for it to pick it all up.

The skimmers take care of surface debris, but the skimmers are not
filtered so anything not caught in the baskets is pushed back into
the pool from the skimmers.

the water in a regular pool mixes by:
Current, like in your pool
Swimmers
Brushing (ugh)
Robots (ie. Polaris)

Hmmmmm....
Current - mine sets up a current from the pop-up heads
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8181024.png

Swimmers - mine is almost never swum in (unless we have visitors)
Brushing - ugh... I brush the walls of green algae every day
Robots - Hmmm... I have no robots (other than the pop-up heads)

The concept of your pool is good but I might question the execution.

After reading the following references, I'm now pretty sure that the
whole system isn't working properly - and specifically - my water valves:

0. Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/ParamountHowTo
1. Especially this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHlXfgAX7Y
2. PC2000 Manual: http://www.1paramount.com/products/a...temsManual.pdf
3. Water Valve Manual: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com...ater_Valve.pdf
4. Blog: http://kurtatparamount.com/technical-forum
5. FAQ: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/faq/pcc.php
6. System Description: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/pcc/
7. Water Valve Description: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/valve/


Yeah... your system is beyond me. I'd much rather stick with the evil I
know. You need to get the debris out. While you're figuring it out you
could cut back any vegetation and get one of those skimming baskets
designed to clean the bottom of the pool.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...lL._SX450_.jpg

I had one that worked better than my Polaris and cheaper to run too. I
could clean the pool in about 8 minutes what it takes the Polaris an
hour to clean. The only advantage is the Polaris stirs the water up better.

If you're brushing a large amount of algae every day off the walls it's
probably your PH and phosphates, but get all of your chemicals right.
You're growing too much algae. Keep brushing and cleaning too. It sucks
but you gotta do it. If necessary, get one of those digital PH readers
and buffer we were showing you. I've got one and it helps to check your
PH often because every-time you add chemicals it has the potential to
knock off your PH.

After you get you algae under control it will get easier.

On 7/4/2013 1:23 PM, Danny D wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:01:03 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Works great but they are not cheap. The cheapest is about $420
and you need the plumbing and the booster.

I already have the plumbing. It's just capped off at the pumps:
(I'm not sure how we're supposed to link to flickr photos so
these three are all the same photo showing the capped off pipe):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...6256/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3783/9...1eea9989_o.jpg

I already have three 1.65HP (net) pumps, so, I would plan on using
one of those if I were to tie in the plumbed vacuum line.

I guess I have two options:
a. Tie the (currently unused) vacuum line to the booster pump or to the
spa pump (neither of which is filtered); so the Polaris would need to
then have its own bag.

b. Or, tie that vacuum line to the filter pump, and then, I guess,
the Polaris would then not need to have its own bag.

I've never used a vacuum before (other than pole-ing by hand with a
hose tied to the self-cleaning-system debris-canister port), so,
I'm not sure which is the best way to go (filtered or unfiltered).


Yeah....I'm not sure how you run a Polaris on a 1.65 hp motor. I'm not
saying it isn't done. I only know my system and my Polaris runs on a 3/4
hp motor *with* a pressure reducer. I suspect the 1.65 hp pump uses some
type of divert-er if it's used with pool-cleaning robots.

http://tinyurl.com/pvnh5kn

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Get the PH to 7.2 and phosphates to zero. Two no brainers. I think the
chlorine is too high and if you want the chlorine to be more effective
lower the PH.

Hmmm... I had not realized the chlorine will be more effective at a
lower pH. It's easy to add muriatic acid, so, if that's the right approach,
I'll gladly lower the pH.

It would also keep some of the calcium scale off the pool walls (which,
I think, harbors the algae).

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

it takes the Polaris an hour to clean.

Interesting that it only takes an hour to clean the debris
with the Polaris vacuum.

My so-called "self-cleaning" system takes about 3 hours each
day, and often I run it longer than that.

In article , gonjah
wrote:

On 7/3/2013 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:
I have one of those supposedly self-cleaning pools, which isn't
cleaning all that well - so - I was just wondering how "normal"
pools work before I turn off the cleaning system completely.

My basic question is "How does a normal pool mix up the water?", and,
"How does a normal pool suck water from the skimmers?"


In some systems, if you don't backwash the filter often enough,
the pressure builds up (at least with a Kreepy Krawley) doesn't work as
well. Have you backwashed recently?
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On 7/4/2013 1:43 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Get the PH to 7.2 and phosphates to zero. Two no brainers. I think the
chlorine is too high and if you want the chlorine to be more effective
lower the PH.

Hmmm... I had not realized the chlorine will be more effective at a
lower pH. It's easy to add muriatic acid, so, if that's the right approach,
I'll gladly lower the pH.

It would also keep some of the calcium scale off the pool walls (which,
I think, harbors the algae).



Be sure to eliminate the phosphates too.

PR-10000 is the cheapest phosphate remover. Around here it's only
available online. The phosphate removers at the pool store here are way
too expensive.

PR-10000 also works to assist sand filters. I don't know your medium but
you might have to clean your filter after using a phosphate remover.
Just keep an eye on your pressure.

On 7/4/2013 1:45 PM, Danny D wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

it takes the Polaris an hour to clean.

Interesting that it only takes an hour to clean the debris
with the Polaris vacuum.

My so-called "self-cleaning" system takes about 3 hours each
day, and often I run it longer than that.


Yeah...that's bs. The cost of running a pump for three hours! Forget it.
Get the skimmer basket and get some exercise. I really don't even like
running the Polaris but it's very effective at keeping the water stirred
up.

No system is going to work if you're growing algae blooms though.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

If you're brushing a large amount of algae every day off the walls it's
probably your PH and phosphates, but get all of your chemicals right.

For a while, I was adding the blue copper algaecide (which I had bought
for about $75 by the gallon) ... but then I read somewhere that chlorine
alone should control algae.

The good thing about the blue copper algaecide is that it stained the
white calcium deposits a very pretty blue!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/9208585061/

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

If you're brushing a large amount of algae every day off the walls

Hmmm... how much is normal?

The pool is only about 80 degrees because I have the solar heater turned
off (due to massive leaks) - and - each brush of the walls shoves a cloud
of graygreen dust forward.

I'd say at most, one or two brush strokes is all it takes, and then you
can't see the cloud anymore. This happens daily, on the deeper walls
(not so much on the shallow walls).

Is that a lot or a little?

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:32:55 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I suspect the 1.65 hp pump uses some
type of divert-er if it's used with pool-cleaning robots.
http://tinyurl.com/pvnh5kn

Thanks for that picture. It helps me understand how a "normal"
pool works. That pump looks nothing like mine.

Is this a basic summary of a normal pool cleaning system?

a. A normal pool filters the water sucking from the main drain
(and perhaps a few others as there must be a safety drain
somewhere - and a spa drain too). The normal pool filtering
doesn't seem to rely on the water "mixing" except what happens
in the day-to-day swimming, brushing, & vacuum robot activities.

b. For bottom debris, the normal pool relies on a vacuum system,
either one with a bag, or without a bag that goes to the filter
pump via a Jandy valve diverter switch.

c. For floating debris, the normal pool relies on skimmers, which
are filtered.

On 7/4/2013 2:23 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

If you're brushing a large amount of algae every day off the walls it's
probably your PH and phosphates, but get all of your chemicals right.

For a while, I was adding the blue copper algaecide (which I had bought
for about $75 by the gallon) ... but then I read somewhere that chlorine
alone should control algae.

The good thing about the blue copper algaecide is that it stained the
white calcium deposits a very pretty blue!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/9208585061/


I've never had anyone recommend algaecide. I've consistently heard to
lower your PH and then shock. If your PH is too high you're basically
throwing money in the pool by adding more chlorine. Well....we're
trowing money in the pool anyway, but, hopefully a little less.

PR10000 isn't cheap but a gallon will last a few years. The most I use
in a dose is 1/2 cup in a 11k gallon pool. If the phosphates are
registering zero then I don't use any, which is usually the case.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:13:40 -0500, gonjah wrote:

PR-10000 is the cheapest phosphate remover.

It's about $100 a gallon:
http://www.stevethepoolman.com/Orend...er-Concentrate

So, I'm looking up *how* it works (maybe there is something cheaper?).

Reading the MSDS:
http://orendatech.com/files/2011/12/PR-10000-MSDS.pdf
It seems to be composed of magic:
"Proprietary rare earth and compatible compounds - Patent Pending"

Hmmm.... something fishy about that but, moving on, I find that the phosphate
removers only remove one form of phosphate, orthophosphate (inorganic phosphate)
and not small organic phosphates that algae can still use (though more slowly).

Digging deeper, I find that if we maintain the free chlorine level at a minimum
FC of at least 7.5% of the CYA level, the chlorine alone should kill the algae
quicker than they can grow.

Since I'm only using a basic ChlorineH kit, I'll have to stop off at
Leslies for a test of my water to see what the CYA level is currently.

The bad news is that algae can apparently store phosphates for weeks, so,
starving them might not be the only way to get rid of them.

I'm reading s'more but this is getting long'ish ...


PR-10000 also works to assist sand filters. I don't know your medium

Mine is cloth filter.

PS: Up until about last year, I was using algaecide and not phosphate remover.
The copper algaecide was a deep dark blue, which stained the pool ... so I
stopped using it (it seems every chemical has a pro and a con).

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:19:05 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Yeah...that's bs. The cost of running a pump for three hours!

Out here, your last KWh is about 45 cents, so the cost skyrockets,
especially as I often have to run it for three or four days straight
(like after I had the pumps out of service for a week or two).

I think, based on this thread, I'm going to drop my cleaning system
time down - but also I'll need to fix my cleaning system water valves.

In addition, I'm going to seriously contemplate connecting the existing
vacuum plumbing to the filter pump - and - that way, at least, I can
manually vacuum the debris with a pole.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:48:31 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

In some systems, if you don't backwash the filter often enough,
the pressure builds up (at least with a Kreepy Krawley) doesn't work as
well. Have you backwashed recently?

I'm no expert but I don't think you backwash the cartridge filters.
But I did hose the filters down about a month ago so they're clean.

On 7/4/2013 2:33 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:32:55 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I suspect the 1.65 hp pump uses some
type of divert-er if it's used with pool-cleaning robots.
http://tinyurl.com/pvnh5kn

Thanks for that picture. It helps me understand how a "normal"
pool works. That pump looks nothing like mine.

Is this a basic summary of a normal pool cleaning system?

a. A normal pool filters the water sucking from the main drain
(and perhaps a few others as there must be a safety drain
somewhere - and a spa drain too). The normal pool filtering
doesn't seem to rely on the water "mixing" except what happens
in the day-to-day swimming, brushing, & vacuum robot activities.


I don't have a safety drain.

b. For bottom debris, the normal pool relies on a vacuum system,
either one with a bag, or without a bag that goes to the filter
pump via a Jandy valve diverter switch.


Maybe. This is where I get confused. My Polaris runs separately (it's
own pump and plumbing.) I don't know what normal is. There are no
valves, divert-ers or Jandy valves associated with my Polaris.

The pool "vacuum" runs on the skimmer inlet on my pool.

I only have two Jandy valves to control the spa. I have two ball joint
valves and one multi-valve for a total of 5 valves. Simple setup.


c. For floating debris, the normal pool relies on skimmers, which
are filtered.

On 7/4/2013 2:25 PM, Danny D wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

If you're brushing a large amount of algae every day off the walls

Hmmm... how much is normal?

The pool is only about 80 degrees because I have the solar heater turned
off (due to massive leaks) - and - each brush of the walls shoves a cloud
of graygreen dust forward.

I'd say at most, one or two brush strokes is all it takes, and then you
can't see the cloud anymore. This happens daily, on the deeper walls
(not so much on the shallow walls).

Is that a lot or a little?


If it's effecting the clarity of the pool. If not then you're fine. I
don't think you're ever going to completely eliminate algae.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:34:23 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I've never had anyone recommend algaecide. I've consistently heard to
lower your PH and then shock.

I like this idea the best, as the algaecides stain the pool, and are
expensive anyway.

Muriatic acid is about as cheap a chemical you can get, and I already
have four gallons of the stuff (since I buy it by the case).

So, I'll figure out how much to add to lower the pH (my pool is 38,500
gallons) from 7.5 to 7.2 ...

BTW, here's an interesting read on phosphates:
http://www.mcgrayel.com/files/Phosph..._and_Myths.pdf

Their conclusion:
"The largest source of pool phosphates appears to be from scale and
stain products and not environmental".

Their recommendation:
"The authors recommendation: take phosphates out of pool water when
they exceed 1000 ppb (300 ppb is a sufficient reduction level), use a
low or non-phosphate scale-stain product, maintain adequate chlorine
levels, keep pool water pH within proper range, and use an algaecide
especially for pools with persistent algae blooms."

But, I'm still googling and trying to form an opinion on what to do
about the light algae on the walls ...

On 7/4/2013 3:10 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:34:23 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I've never had anyone recommend algaecide. I've consistently heard to
lower your PH and then shock.

I like this idea the best, as the algaecides stain the pool, and are
expensive anyway.

Muriatic acid is about as cheap a chemical you can get, and I already
have four gallons of the stuff (since I buy it by the case).

So, I'll figure out how much to add to lower the pH (my pool is 38,500
gallons) from 7.5 to 7.2 ...


I just add 2 cups and check the next day. Remember "acid to water just
like you outta." I dilute mine in a five gallon bucket and then add to
pool. You shouldn't add too much at once anyway.


BTW, here's an interesting read on phosphates:
http://www.mcgrayel.com/files/Phosph..._and_Myths.pdf

Their conclusion:
"The largest source of pool phosphates appears to be from scale and
stain products and not environmental".

Their recommendation:
"The authors recommendation: take phosphates out of pool water when
they exceed 1000 ppb (300 ppb is a sufficient reduction level), use a
low or non-phosphate scale-stain product, maintain adequate chlorine
levels, keep pool water pH within proper range, and use an algaecide
especially for pools with persistent algae blooms."

But, I'm still googling and trying to form an opinion on what to do
about the light algae on the walls ...


In line with what they say at the pool store. They only get concerned at
800 ppb. It gets real hard to measure at below around 500 ppb. That's
why I let them do I at the pool store and at this point it's guessing.
They say 100 because they can't get a reading. I have a test kit but it
always reads zero. As far as sources? I don't know. Nothing I use seems
to add phosphates per se. I figure it comes from some where in the
environment. I'm probably using the PR10000 now more for the filter
assist. In a year I might use a pint. Point is, once you get phosphates
out, if you're not using something to spike it, it's not something you
have to be too concerned about. A monthly test at the pool store should
be fine. If you get a reading, add a small amount of PR-10000. Re-test
next month. Ask to see the results. They maybe insulted but tell them
you're just curious. They might tell you it's high just to sell you some
high priced phosphate remover. They don't do that here but I wouldn't
put it past them.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 19:53:14 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Reading the MSDS:
http://orendatech.com/files/2011/12/PR-10000-MSDS.pdf
It seems to be composed of magic:
"Proprietary rare earth and compatible compounds - Patent Pending"

I'm all for making my own solutions out of the basic chemicals.

Reading deeper on PR-10000, I find this:
"the Orenda PR-10000 phosphate remover appears to primarily contain
lanthanum chloride (note under toxicity data the acute oral effects as
100% LaCl3). The pH is low for the product and the thermal oxidative
decomposition can produce fumes of hydrogen chloride (i.e. hydrochloric
acid) and metal oxides. This is consistent with lanthanum chloride
because it hydrolyzes in water to produce lanthanum hydroxide and
hydrochloric acid, thereby lowering the pH (or alternatively,
putting lanthanum chloride into an acidic water solution can make
it less likely to form lathanum hydroxide) and with heat this can
produce lanthanum oxide which is a metal oxide."

Googling for Lanthanum Chloride, I start with Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthan...II%29_chloride
which confirms it's use to precipitate phosphates from solutions.

The MSDS for Lanthanum Chloride:
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924457
gives the CAS number as Lanthanum chloride 10099-58-8

It's about a dollar a gram for the 99.99% anhydrous stuff:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lanthanum-Ch...-/251262714936

So, the question is what is the dosage (in grams) of LaCl3 in PR-10000?

On 7/4/2013 3:35 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 19:53:14 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Reading the MSDS:
http://orendatech.com/files/2011/12/PR-10000-MSDS.pdf
It seems to be composed of magic:
"Proprietary rare earth and compatible compounds - Patent Pending"

I'm all for making my own solutions out of the basic chemicals.

Reading deeper on PR-10000, I find this:
"the Orenda PR-10000 phosphate remover appears to primarily contain
lanthanum chloride (note under toxicity data the acute oral effects as
100% LaCl3). The pH is low for the product and the thermal oxidative
decomposition can produce fumes of hydrogen chloride (i.e. hydrochloric
acid) and metal oxides. This is consistent with lanthanum chloride
because it hydrolyzes in water to produce lanthanum hydroxide and
hydrochloric acid, thereby lowering the pH (or alternatively,
putting lanthanum chloride into an acidic water solution can make
it less likely to form lathanum hydroxide) and with heat this can
produce lanthanum oxide which is a metal oxide."

Googling for Lanthanum Chloride, I start with Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthan...II%29_chloride
which confirms it's use to precipitate phosphates from solutions.

The MSDS for Lanthanum Chloride:
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924457
gives the CAS number as Lanthanum chloride 10099-58-8

It's about a dollar a gram for the 99.99% anhydrous stuff:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lanthanum-Ch...-/251262714936

So, the question is what is the dosage (in grams) of LaCl3 in PR-10000?


Don't know. When you find out let us know. I use it in very small
amounts. Like I said, I think I'm using it more as a filter assist
rather than a phosphate remover since I haven't had measurable
phosphates for as long as I can remember. Maybe a couple of years now.

On 7/4/2013 2:53 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:13:40 -0500, gonjah wrote:

PR-10000 is the cheapest phosphate remover.

It's about $100 a gallon:
http://www.stevethepoolman.com/Orend...er-Concentrate

So, I'm looking up *how* it works (maybe there is something cheaper?).


Right. I seems expensive but it's concentrated. There are cheaper.

"Phos Free" for example. Seems cheaper but the dose is much larger. This
is the stuff they pimp at the pool store.

There is a guy here that did the comparison in great detail. PR-10000
was the clear winner. The pool store doesn't want to talk about PR-10000.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:03:12 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I don't have a safety drain.

Yikes.

If the cover comes off, that single drain becomes dangerous.

Here's a quote:
http://voices.yahoo.com/6-year-old-g...ls-430033.html

"Most newer pools have multiple drains so less suction is created
if one opening is blocked. Older pools with single drains present a
greater hazard. According to the Press, drain suction is typically
300 pounds per square inch and can actually trap swimmers under water,
causing them to drown, even with others pulling on them to break the suction.

The Tribune says that the commission reported 74 cases of body entrapment,
including 13 deaths, in a 2005 report that dated back to 1990. The
commission's report found that most of the deaths occurred when a
child's hair became entangled in the drain grates, and the children
drowned. Two other cases involved children who were disemboweled;
both children survived. Additionally, the commission's report says
that when a "child's buttocks cover the drain opening, the resulting
suction force can eviscerate the child through the ruptured rectum.
A small change in pressure is sufficient to cause such injury extremely
quickly. If the grate or cover is unfastened, broken or missing, the
potential for incident exists."

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:03:12 -0500, gonjah wrote:

My Polaris runs separately (it's own pump and plumbing.)

I envy your setup. If I add a fourth pump, with filter,
I can have something similar - but the automatic controller
would be the hard part for me.

The pool "vacuum" runs on the skimmer inlet on my pool.

Ah, I see. That's similar to how I manually run my pole vacuum,
from the debris canister (which is filtered).

a total of 5 valves. Simple setup.

I envy the simplicity! KISS

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:47:07 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Don't know. When you find out let us know. I use it in very small
amounts. Like I said, I think I'm using it more as a filter assist
rather than a phosphate remover since I haven't had measurable
phosphates for as long as I can remember. Maybe a couple of years now.

I'll ask around, as I know some good chemists.

It would be nice if the $1 a gram Lanthanum Chloride is used in minute
doses, say, a gram at a time. Apparently it will precipitate the
orthophosphates, so, the water may need a clarifier (or just time).

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:56:18 -0500, gonjah wrote:

There is a guy here that did the comparison in great detail. PR-10000
was the clear winner. The pool store doesn't want to talk about PR-10000.

From what I've read today, the Lanthanum Chloride in PR-10000 *does* precipitate
the phosphates, and the PR-10000 also has a standard clarifier to prevent the
pool water from looking cloudy from the process.

The main filter is actually what seems to pull out the phosphate crystals that
are formed. One caveat is that only orthophosphates are removed (so the organic
phosphates apparently remain ... but I need to clarify that with more detail).

If we're going to remove phosphates, most of what I read did agree with
you that the PR-10000 stuff is the best buy; however, I'd bet that anhydrous
Lanthanum Chloride, at $1 a gram, *might* be even cheaper and more effective.

I'll let you know what I find out.

On 7/4/2013 4:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:03:12 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I don't have a safety drain.

Yikes.

If the cover comes off, that single drain becomes dangerous.

Here's a quote:
http://voices.yahoo.com/6-year-old-g...ls-430033.html

"Most newer pools have multiple drains so less suction is created
if one opening is blocked. Older pools with single drains present a
greater hazard. According to the Press, drain suction is typically
300 pounds per square inch and can actually trap swimmers under water,
causing them to drown, even with others pulling on them to break the suction.

The Tribune says that the commission reported 74 cases of body entrapment,
including 13 deaths, in a 2005 report that dated back to 1990. The
commission's report found that most of the deaths occurred when a
child's hair became entangled in the drain grates, and the children
drowned. Two other cases involved children who were disemboweled;
both children survived. Additionally, the commission's report says
that when a "child's buttocks cover the drain opening, the resulting
suction force can eviscerate the child through the ruptured rectum.
A small change in pressure is sufficient to cause such injury extremely
quickly. If the grate or cover is unfastened, broken or missing, the
potential for incident exists."


That is scary stuff. A very good reason to maintain the cover. But I'm
still more afraid of drowning. Two of my old friend's families lost a
child in pool drownings. It can happen so quick.

First thing I did was build another fence and gate to the pool area but
I doubt it would stop anything. Many drownings happen while adults are
in the pool.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:34:35 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I just add 2 cups and check the next day. Remember "acid to water just
like you outta." I dilute mine in a five gallon bucket and then add to
pool. You shouldn't add too much at once anyway

I usually pour about 1/3 to 1/2 a gallon at a time as my pool is almost
40,000 gallons.

However, I sometimes go over too far - but not usually with just 1/3 of
a gallon. I have guests today - so I'll try it later.

(Right now I have to figure out why the fans and A/C aren't working ...
normally I don't bother - but with guests ... I care all of a sudden.)