On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:34:35 -0500, gonjah wrote:

It gets real hard to measure at below around 500 ppb.

I'm going to have mine checked at Leslie's and report back.

Nothing I use seems to add phosphates per se.

Me neither. All I add are acid, liquid chlorine, and Trichlor tabs
(in the three floaters).

I figure it comes from some where in the environment.

Most of what I'm reading is saying it would take a huge amount of
wind-blown debris to be added by the environment; but, maybe it's
inherent in the pool water from the well or town?

Once you get phosphates out, ... it's not something you
have to be too concerned about.

Makes sense. If it's out, and it doesn't come back in, then it's gone.
(I wish weeds were the same way!)

A monthly test at the pool store should be fine. If you get a reading,
add a small amount of PR-10000. Re-test

I will probably do this:
a. Get the pool store reading
b. Meanwhile, I'll research Lanthanum Chloride by the gram
c. If the pool-store reading is high, I'll add the lanthanum chloride.

Then I'll report back.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:07:20 -0500, gonjah wrote:

If it's effecting the clarity of the pool. If not then you're fine. I
don't think you're ever going to completely eliminate algae.

It's not affecting the clarity of the pool, per se.

It's hard to snap a picture of it, but, in the morning, the pool is nice
and clear.

Then, I brush the walls (the pool is 60 feet long so there is a lot of wall)
and I can see the dust billow up lightly behind the wire brush. But, it only
makes the pool unclear for about a half hour or so, as, over time, the filter
gets it or the cleaners disperse it or they settle back to the ground.

So, in effect, it's only unsightly (a light green on the sides, mostly at
the deep end and in the nooks and crannies around steps and corners).

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:00:20 -0500, gonjah wrote:

But I'm still more afraid of drowning.

Understood.

A four-year old boy just drowned last week in a community pool
here in San Jose ...
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...rts-4-year-old

On 7/4/2013 5:06 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:34:35 -0500, gonjah wrote:

It gets real hard to measure at below around 500 ppb.

I'm going to have mine checked at Leslie's and report back.

Nothing I use seems to add phosphates per se.

Me neither. All I add are acid, liquid chlorine, and Trichlor tabs
(in the three floaters).

I figure it comes from some where in the environment.

Most of what I'm reading is saying it would take a huge amount of
wind-blown debris to be added by the environment; but, maybe it's
inherent in the pool water from the well or town?

Once you get phosphates out, ... it's not something you
have to be too concerned about.

Makes sense. If it's out, and it doesn't come back in, then it's gone.
(I wish weeds were the same way!)

A monthly test at the pool store should be fine. If you get a reading,
add a small amount of PR-10000. Re-test

I will probably do this:
a. Get the pool store reading
b. Meanwhile, I'll research Lanthanum Chloride by the gram
c. If the pool-store reading is high, I'll add the lanthanum chloride.

Then I'll report back.


That would be interesting. I'll watch for your post.

On 7/4/2013 5:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:34:35 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I just add 2 cups and check the next day. Remember "acid to water just
like you outta." I dilute mine in a five gallon bucket and then add to
pool. You shouldn't add too much at once anyway

I usually pour about 1/3 to 1/2 a gallon at a time as my pool is almost
40,000 gallons.


That sounds about right. That's a big pool. I see why they had the
sophisticated cleaning system now. If it works it would be nice.


However, I sometimes go over too far - but not usually with just 1/3 of
a gallon. I have guests today - so I'll try it later.

(Right now I have to figure out why the fans and A/C aren't working ...
normally I don't bother - but with guests ... I care all of a sudden.)

On 7/4/2013 5:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:07:20 -0500, gonjah wrote:

If it's effecting the clarity of the pool. If not then you're fine. I
don't think you're ever going to completely eliminate algae.

It's not affecting the clarity of the pool, per se.

It's hard to snap a picture of it, but, in the morning, the pool is nice
and clear.

Then, I brush the walls (the pool is 60 feet long so there is a lot of wall)
and I can see the dust billow up lightly behind the wire brush. But, it only
makes the pool unclear for about a half hour or so, as, over time, the filter
gets it or the cleaners disperse it or they settle back to the ground.

So, in effect, it's only unsightly (a light green on the sides, mostly at
the deep end and in the nooks and crannies around steps and corners).


Actually, that sounds about right. As long as it clears up. If it's just
settling to the bottom that's a problem though. I thought you were
having difficulties. I'd still get your PH down and use some phosphate
remover. I know the store will say 7.6 is fine but I've heard lower is
better for chlorine to work effectively. At 7.4 I start pouring the
acid. I shoot for 7.2 to 7.0. And keep my cholorine at as close to 5 ppm
as possible. 10 ppm would not be acceptable unless it was *just*
shocked. Even then that sounds really high but we use our pool.

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:11:27 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 05:21:01 -0700, wrote:



Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter?

... the Polaris pool cleaner ... dirt gets kicked up.



I see. The pool cleaner stirs things up so that they can get to

the main drain.



Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?

No wall drains here, just two skimmers, one bottom drain.



There must be a "safety" drain somewhere, isn't there?

What's a safety drain?

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:50:22 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:03:12 -0500, gonjah wrote:



I don't have a safety drain.



Yikes.



If the cover comes off, that single drain becomes dangerous.



Here's a quote:

http://voices.yahoo.com/6-year-old-g...ls-430033.html



"Most newer pools have multiple drains so less suction is created

if one opening is blocked. Older pools with single drains present a

greater hazard. According to the Press, drain suction is typically

300 pounds per square inch and can actually trap swimmers under water,

causing them to drown, even with others pulling on them to break the suction.



The Tribune says that the commission reported 74 cases of body entrapment,

including 13 deaths, in a 2005 report that dated back to 1990. The

commission's report found that most of the deaths occurred when a

child's hair became entangled in the drain grates, and the children

drowned. Two other cases involved children who were disemboweled;

both children survived. Additionally, the commission's report says

that when a "child's buttocks cover the drain opening, the resulting

suction force can eviscerate the child through the ruptured rectum.

A small change in pressure is sufficient to cause such injury extremely

quickly. If the grate or cover is unfastened, broken or missing, the

potential for incident exists."

Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,
how is someone going to get stuck?

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:29:03 -0700, wrote:

pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,
how is someone going to get stuck?

From what I've read (and only from that), the drain develops a lot
of suction. If the cover is intact, it would be hard to block it fully,
but, as in the case of the death and disembowlment I read about, if
the cover is off, then sitting on the drain (by a kid) has resulted
in evisceration & death.

Apparently even if the cover is off, with a second drain on the pool
wall, the suction would be drastically reduced.

Guests are arriving - so I'll need to sign off.

I did find out more information about Lanthanum Chloride
(http://www.americanelements.com/lacl.html)

But that will come later.

On 7/4/2013 5:29 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:50:22 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:03:12 -0500, gonjah wrote:



I don't have a safety drain.



Yikes.



If the cover comes off, that single drain becomes dangerous.



Here's a quote:

http://voices.yahoo.com/6-year-old-g...ls-430033.html



"Most newer pools have multiple drains so less suction is created

if one opening is blocked. Older pools with single drains present a

greater hazard. According to the Press, drain suction is typically

300 pounds per square inch and can actually trap swimmers under water,

causing them to drown, even with others pulling on them to break the suction.



The Tribune says that the commission reported 74 cases of body entrapment,

including 13 deaths, in a 2005 report that dated back to 1990. The

commission's report found that most of the deaths occurred when a

child's hair became entangled in the drain grates, and the children

drowned. Two other cases involved children who were disemboweled;

both children survived. Additionally, the commission's report says

that when a "child's buttocks cover the drain opening, the resulting

suction force can eviscerate the child through the ruptured rectum.

A small change in pressure is sufficient to cause such injury extremely

quickly. If the grate or cover is unfastened, broken or missing, the

potential for incident exists."

Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,
how is someone going to get stuck?


The only stories I've heard about were in small kid wading pools or
spas. But even with relief those things can generate some suction. I
wouldn't want to test it. It's possible for the skimmer and the drain to
be plugged at the same time. How often do you fine toys in the skimmer?
I do every time the kids are over.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:47:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

http://kreepykrauly.org/images/Figure%2010.jpg

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...


That's an interesting setup. We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the
Polaris.


Everything in that photo above is not necessary. That fitting with
the flap is ~ $25 - $32.

My hose connects right into the wall fitting, below the water line.
The fitting is male thread -easily replaced, a fraction the cost. The
sweeper hose fits into the slip side. Durable PVC.

On 7/4/2013 6:16 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:47:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

http://kreepykrauly.org/images/Figure%2010.jpg

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...


That's an interesting setup. We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the
Polaris.


Everything in that photo above is not necessary. That fitting with
the flap is ~ $25 - $32.

My hose connects right into the wall fitting, below the water line.
The fitting is male thread -easily replaced, a fraction the cost. The
sweeper hose fits into the slip side. Durable PVC.


I just realized were talking apples and oranges. Yours is for a vacuum
and mine is a Polaris. One sucks and the other blows.

I still like to see a better mouse trap for my Polaris connection. Or at
least a lube that works on that fitting.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:26:24 -0700, wrote:

There must be a "safety" drain somewhere, isn't there?

What's a safety drain?

I probably am not using the proper term; but what I mean is the type of drain
that I have on the wall which is not meant to be a primary drain; but is meant
to merely prevent the main drain on the floor from creating suction enough to
rip someone's bowels out were they to sit on the thing (were the cover to be
removed).

This wall drain is situated near the main drain and it's sole purpose is to
prevent the main drain from developing enough suction to be dangerous.

Googling, I find the September 28, 2011 spec he
http://www.poolsafely.gov/news-resou...ckable-drains/

More information he
http://www.poolsafely.gov/industry-o.../drain-covers/

"some state standards require that the water velocity through grates not
exceed 1.5 feet per second (fps) with one drain 100 percent blocked."

The way I understand it is that, for safety reasons, you would want not only
an unblockable main drain, but also a safety backup drain, so that, were the
main drain to be blocked, it wouldn't develop full suction (due to the other
drain on the wall picking up the slack).

I may be wrong though - as I do not present myself as a pool or pool safety
expert.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:29:03 -0700, wrote:

Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,
how is someone going to get stuck?

I'm not a pool expert in any fashion, so, maybe the skimmers *do*
provide the secondary backup in your pool were the main drain to
be blocked by a kid sitting on it.

I do know in my case, the skimmers are not tied to the main drain
so, in my system, there are two wall drains, at least one of which
I've been told has the purpose of providing a secondary inlet were
the main drain to be blocked by a human.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the second wall drain is.

All five drains (one main drain, and two wall drains (one near the
main drain and the other below one of the skimmers), and two spa
floor drains are roughly about a foot in diameter.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:44:48 -0500, gonjah wrote:

The only stories I've heard about were in small kid wading pools
or spas.

I just ran a few google searches, and this is what I found:

1. Abigail Taylor, age 6, died; Sta-Rite drain ripped out her intestines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Abigail_Taylor
http://www.justice.org/cps/rde/justice/hs.xsl/4171.htm
http://www.jems.com/article/provider...rates-6-year-0
Bette Fenton, YMCA spokeswoman for the Minneapolis and St. Paul area,
told the Minneapolis Star Tribune that all of their new pools have
*multiple drains*. Fenton says "We were aware of this situation for a
number of years that the drains can be a problem. So the potential
for it to be a problem is significantly minimized."

2. Valerie Lakey, age 5; Sta-Rite drain ripped out her intestines
http://overlawyered.com/2005/10/vale...ey-v-sta-rite/
http://www.monkeytime.org/lakey.html

3. Virginia Graeme Baker, age 7, drowned; hot tub drain suction in
a residential pool
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/15/entrapment.pools/

4. Zachary Cohn, age 6, died, of entrapment and drowning
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...558409082.html

All of these appear to be from missing or broken drain covers though ...

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:23:29 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I shoot for 7.2 to 7.0. And keep my cholorine at as close to 5 ppm
as possible. 10 ppm would not be acceptable unless it was *just*
shocked. Even then that sounds really high

For some reason, I'm no at all worried about 10 ppm chlorine.

I've googled in the past (not recently), and didn't find any real harm
at those levels. There is absolutely no smell (although I realize that
the so-called chlorine smell is from chloramines) and there are no side
effects (e.g., bleached hair or clothing?) that we've ever noticed.

I like the chlorine level high - and I'm a bit unsure why others are so
worried about it being high. Of course, "high" is relative to the CYA
level. For example, the typical chart shows that, at, say, 100 ppm CYA,
the target free chlorine is 12 ppm, and the shock free chlorine is 39ppm.

CYA MIN-FC TARGET-FC SHOCK-FC
20 2 3 10
30 2 4 12
40 3 5 16
50 4 6 20
60 5 7 24
70 5 8 28
80 6 9 31
90 7 10 35
100 7 12 39

So, depending on my cyanuric acid level (yes, I use trichlor in addition to
bleach), 10 ppm could actually be low levels of chlorine.

But, before I go further, I need to have my CYA level tested again
(I have three floaters filled with 6 tabs each at all times).

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:23:29 -0500, gonjah wrote:

10 ppm would not be acceptable unless it was *just* shocked.

Hmmm... that actually depends ... on the CYA levels.

The *ratio* of the two is (apparently) what matters:

http://www.anotherperfectpoolnews.co...A-Cl-Ratio.pdf
"the measured FC level should be at least 7.5 percent of the amount of CYA"
"the target FC level should be at least 11.5 percent of the amount of CYA"
"algae shock should be 40% of CYA; yellow algae shock 60% of CYA"

For example: If the CYA level is, say, 100 ppm, then the measured residual
free chlorine should be at a bare minimum at 7.5 ppm; while the target would
be 12 ppm; and the shock at 39 ppm; and the yellow algae kill at 58 ppm.

Now, 100 ppm CYA is rather high (I picked that for easy numbers); but the point
is that the free chlorine, in and of itself, is not meaningful (in an outdoor
pool) without also stating the CYA levels - because the ratio is what matters.

Having said that, I don't know what "my" CYA levels are, so, I need to have
them tested so that I can determine appropriate minimum free chlorine levels;
but I like to keep my free chlorine levels rather high and I see no (known)
downside to high levels.

QUESTION:
What are the perceived problems with high chlorine levels anyway?

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:14:40 -0500, gonjah wrote:

That sounds about right. That's a big pool. I see why they had the
sophisticated cleaning system now. If it works it would be nice.

There are a lot of things wrong with the pool at the moment, but,
at least the pumps are working great and not leaking!

a. The cleaning system water valve pistons are sticking
b. The heating system solar panels are leaking
c. The spa gas heater has a bad "fireman switch"
d. The automatic pool cover motor isn't running
etc.

So, I have plenty to work on ...

On 7/5/2013 3:20 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:23:29 -0500, gonjah wrote:

10 ppm would not be acceptable unless it was *just* shocked.

Hmmm... that actually depends ... on the CYA levels.

The *ratio* of the two is (apparently) what matters:

http://www.anotherperfectpoolnews.co...A-Cl-Ratio.pdf
"the measured FC level should be at least 7.5 percent of the amount of CYA"
"the target FC level should be at least 11.5 percent of the amount of CYA"
"algae shock should be 40% of CYA; yellow algae shock 60% of CYA"

For example: If the CYA level is, say, 100 ppm, then the measured residual
free chlorine should be at a bare minimum at 7.5 ppm; while the target would
be 12 ppm; and the shock at 39 ppm; and the yellow algae kill at 58 ppm.

Now, 100 ppm CYA is rather high (I picked that for easy numbers); but the point
is that the free chlorine, in and of itself, is not meaningful (in an outdoor
pool) without also stating the CYA levels - because the ratio is what matters.

Having said that, I don't know what "my" CYA levels are, so, I need to have
them tested so that I can determine appropriate minimum free chlorine levels;
but I like to keep my free chlorine levels rather high and I see no (known)
downside to high levels.

QUESTION:
What are the perceived problems with high chlorine levels anyway?


I never check the levels right after a shock but I've never register any
level above 7ppm. Probably is real high right after shocking.

I'd say anything above 5 ppm could cause skin irritation, eyes burning
and maybe hair becoming brittle and washed out. You've heard of bleached
out hair. I don't know how caustic it is to equipment but it could cause
your gaskets and o-rings to wear out quicker. Breaking down the lube on
fittings.

On Friday, July 5, 2013 3:07:31 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:26:24 -0700, wrote:



There must be a "safety" drain somewhere, isn't there?



What's a safety drain?



I probably am not using the proper term; but what I mean is the type of drain

that I have on the wall which is not meant to be a primary drain; but is meant

to merely prevent the main drain on the floor from creating suction enough to

rip someone's bowels out were they to sit on the thing (were the cover to be

removed).



This wall drain is situated near the main drain and it's sole purpose is to

prevent the main drain from developing enough suction to be dangerous.



Googling, I find the September 28, 2011 spec he

http://www.poolsafely.gov/news-resou...ckable-drains/



More information he

http://www.poolsafely.gov/industry-o.../drain-covers/



"some state standards require that the water velocity through grates not

exceed 1.5 feet per second (fps) with one drain 100 percent blocked."



The way I understand it is that, for safety reasons, you would want not only

an unblockable main drain, but also a safety backup drain, so that, were the

main drain to be blocked, it wouldn't develop full suction (due to the other

drain on the wall picking up the slack).



I may be wrong though - as I do not present myself as a pool or pool safety

expert.


Again, you have not only the bottom drain, but 2 skimmers, for
a total of 3 intakes.

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 6:44:48 PM UTC-4, gonjah wrote:
On 7/4/2013 5:29 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 5:50:22 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:03:12 -0500, gonjah wrote:







I don't have a safety drain.







Yikes.







If the cover comes off, that single drain becomes dangerous.







Here's a quote:



http://voices.yahoo.com/6-year-old-g...ls-430033.html







"Most newer pools have multiple drains so less suction is created



if one opening is blocked. Older pools with single drains present a



greater hazard. According to the Press, drain suction is typically



300 pounds per square inch and can actually trap swimmers under water,



causing them to drown, even with others pulling on them to break the suction.







The Tribune says that the commission reported 74 cases of body entrapment,



including 13 deaths, in a 2005 report that dated back to 1990. The



commission's report found that most of the deaths occurred when a



child's hair became entangled in the drain grates, and the children



drowned. Two other cases involved children who were disemboweled;



both children survived. Additionally, the commission's report says



that when a "child's buttocks cover the drain opening, the resulting



suction force can eviscerate the child through the ruptured rectum.



A small change in pressure is sufficient to cause such injury extremely



quickly. If the grate or cover is unfastened, broken or missing, the



potential for incident exists."



Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,

how is someone going to get stuck?





The only stories I've heard about were in small kid wading pools or

spas. But even with relief those things can generate some suction. I

wouldn't want to test it. It's possible for the skimmer and the drain to

be plugged at the same time. How often do you fine toys in the skimmer?

I do every time the kids are over.


A heavyset girl died at a spa 1/4 mile from my house back in the 90s.
They were having a high school graduation party, there were teachers
present. She got stuck on the bottom drain and no one there knew
how to shut it off. Turns out the switch was back at the breaker
panel, ie another room somewhere. By the time they figured it out,
she had drowned. Even people pulling, apparently they were unable
to get her off. Two very bad design elements, single intake and
no shut-off that was nearby and marked.

On Friday, July 5, 2013 3:14:30 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:29:03 -0700, wrote:



Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,

how is someone going to get stuck?



I'm not a pool expert in any fashion, so, maybe the skimmers *do*

provide the secondary backup in your pool were the main drain to

be blocked by a kid sitting on it.



Of course they do. The skimmers are connected to the pump.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:44:48 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,
how is someone going to get stuck?


The only stories I've heard about were in small kid wading pools or
spas. But even with relief those things can generate some suction. I
wouldn't want to test it. It's possible for the skimmer and the drain to
be plugged at the same time. How often do you fine toys in the skimmer?
I do every time the kids are over.

"All drain covers must be compliant with the ANSI/ASME A112.19.8
performance standard, or the successor standard ANSI/APSP-16 2011.

Drain Cover imagePool and spa owners and operators can either have
older covers tested against the standard to determine if they comply,
or replace these covers with new compliant drain covers. If covers are
field fabricated, then a Registered Design Professional or a licensed
professional engineer (PE) must specify the covers meet the ASME/ANSI
A112.19.8 standard."

http://www.poolsafely.gov/industry-operators-professionals/safety-equipment/drain-covers/

Some pool drain covers were recalled.

On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 05:19:47 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I'd say anything above 5 ppm could cause skin irritation, eyes burning
and maybe hair becoming brittle and washed out. You've heard of bleached
out hair. I don't know how caustic it is to equipment but it could cause
your gaskets and o-rings to wear out quicker. Breaking down the lube on
fittings.

Hmmmm.... I, and others swim with open eyes, and none of that has ever
happened in my pool to my knowledge, to people.

As for the equipment ... who knows ... maybe.

When I had looked it up, I couldn't find any real evidence of problems,
but, again, that was a while ago.

In article ,
"Danny D." wrote:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:48:31 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

In some systems, if you don't backwash the filter often enough,
the pressure builds up (at least with a Kreepy Krawley) doesn't work as
well. Have you backwashed recently?

I'm no expert but I don't think you backwash the cartridge filters.
But I did hose the filters down about a month ago so they're clean.

You're right. I lost that part in the meandering of the thread. To
quote Emily Lutella: "Never mind".
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 17:42:24 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 06:36:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...

Hi Oren,

Oh no! I wish you had mentioned that a month ago ... as I *do* have
a plugged-off vacuum line in the center of the pool:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/9...6320eff2_z.jpg

Apparently they put them in when they build the pool, but the
pipe is plugged off where it comes up at the pump equipment:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/9...c92649f4_z.jpg

Too bad I hadn't thought of this when I was replumbing my filter
pump, as I would liked to have worked in a hookup to the filter!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/9...d61036fe_z.jpg

Um mm, we talked about this a long time ago. You were trying to fix
the pool cleaner then, under another nym

How exactly is the side wall plugged? Can the cap be screwed off so
it can be adapted for a hose and pool sweeper?

On Friday, July 5, 2013 8:39:21 AM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 17:44:48 -0500, gonjah wrote:



Like I said, pool here has two skimmers, one bottom drain. So,

how is someone going to get stuck?





The only stories I've heard about were in small kid wading pools or

spas. But even with relief those things can generate some suction. I

wouldn't want to test it. It's possible for the skimmer and the drain to

be plugged at the same time. How often do you fine toys in the skimmer?

I do every time the kids are over.



"All drain covers must be compliant with the ANSI/ASME A112.19.8

performance standard, or the successor standard ANSI/APSP-16 2011.



Drain Cover imagePool and spa owners and operators can either have

older covers tested against the standard to determine if they comply,

or replace these covers with new compliant drain covers. If covers are

field fabricated, then a Registered Design Professional or a licensed

professional engineer (PE) must specify the covers meet the ASME/ANSI

A112.19.8 standard."



http://www.poolsafely.gov/industry-operators-professionals/safety-equipment/drain-covers/



Some pool drain covers were recalled.

You're right. IDK what the one here is or isn't compliant
with, but it is about a foot square, solid top, water gets
sucked in around the edges. Hard to imagine how anyone
could get stuck on that.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 18:25:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

On 7/4/2013 6:16 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:47:11 -0500, gonjah wrote:

http://kreepykrauly.org/images/Figure%2010.jpg

Do you have a vacuum line on the side wall of the pool? Some pools
might use the skimmer as the vacuum line...


That's an interesting setup. We have a separate 3/4 hp booster for the
Polaris.


Everything in that photo above is not necessary. That fitting with
the flap is ~ $25 - $32.

My hose connects right into the wall fitting, below the water line.
The fitting is male thread -easily replaced, a fraction the cost. The
sweeper hose fits into the slip side. Durable PVC.


I just realized were talking apples and oranges. Yours is for a vacuum
and mine is a Polaris. One sucks and the other blows.

I still like to see a better mouse trap for my Polaris connection. Or at
least a lube that works on that fitting.

I only have experience with the pool vacuum sweeper (Hayward Creepy
Crawly (sic).

This is the *type* of fitting for the hose to attach into the side
wall. Once screwed in, (fits 2 size pipe - note threads) the hose
slips in basically compression holding the hose in the fitting.

I found this after the first (softer) plastic went south.

http://www.lesliespool.com/Specials/pool-parts/90001/9000009/62611.html

You guys make me glad I do NOT have a pool!!!!!

On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 20:35:01 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

I'm all for making my own solutions out of the basic chemicals.

A friend swears by this product. I forgot about it and I still have a
half gallon.

_NO MORE PROBLEM 1 GALLON _

Eliminates almost all shocking, brushing, filter cleaning aids, and
other algaecides
Spectacular water clarity and sparkle
Higher bather comfort
Less algae maintenance
Less staining and reduced costs

http://www.amazon.com/NO-MORE-PROBLEM-1-GALLON/dp/B0079QIAM8/ref=sr_1_4/189-5505171-1557040?ie=UTF8&qid=1373034990&sr=8-4&keywords=no+mor+problems

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 07:34:15 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

You guys make me glad I do NOT have a pool!!!!!

chuckle

I have options. I can always fill it with dirt and grow ALL my garden
food. Pools are like boats, a hole you keep pouring money in. Like
driving a Chevy :-\

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 20:35:01 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

It's about a dollar a gram for the 99.99% anhydrous stuff:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lanthanum-Ch...-/251262714936

So, the question is what is the dosage (in grams) of LaCl3 in PR-10000?

I found this on the web, which did a cost comparison of the store-bought
phosphate removers ...

"The PR-10000 can be purchased for $31 per quart or $98 per gallon
where one quart will remove 10,000 ppb phosphates in 10,000 gallons.
Compare this to 3 liters of PhosFree for $25 (7-13% lanthanum chloride)
or commercial strength for $40 (15-40% lanthanum chloride) where the
latter removes 3000 ppb from 20,000 gallons so 6000 ppb from 10,000
gallons. In 10,000 gallons, the PR-10000 by the quart is $3.10 per
1000 ppb phosphate, by the gallon it's $2.45, while the PhosFree
Commercial Strength is $6.67 per 1000 ppb phosphate. Also compare
this to SeaKlear phosphate remover here at $20 per quart so for
10,000 gallons that's $3.33 per 1000 ppb so closer to the Orenda
PR-10000 product."

I'm still working on the calculations for the cost comparison to
just putting the right amount of chemical-grade Lanthanum Chloride
into the pool though ...

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 07:32:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Some pool drain covers were recalled.

You're right. IDK what the one here is or isn't compliant
with, but it is about a foot square, solid top, water gets
sucked in around the edges. Hard to imagine how anyone
could get stuck on that.

I agree. Wonder is PSI would cause the entrapments?

On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:11:42 -0700, Oren wrote:

How exactly is the side wall plugged? Can the cap be screwed off so
it can be adapted for a hose and pool sweeper?

Hi Oren,
It was hard to see in my picture as the camera was above water, but the
side wall unused vacuum port isn't plugged at all. It's got a nice female
thread, about 1.5 inches or maybe 2 inches in diameter (probably whatever
the standard size is).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/

It's unseen, but, the plumbing, almost certainly, goes from that side wall
female fitting to the unused vertical pipe at the pool equipment. It's really
hard to see in my picture, but, that 3'foot vertical pipe has an inline Jandy
valve, and then the top is simply plugged with a cap:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/

So, all I'd need to do (I think) is cut off the cap, and plumb into the 1.65HP
(net) filterpump.

You can see in that picture above that I already have three Jandy valves on
the filter pump inlet side, so I'm guessing I don't even need to add an additional
Jandy valve to the four that would exist on the inlet side of the filter pump
were I to connect the vacuum to the filter pump (via a "T"?).

If the 1.65 HP motor is too much for a vacuum, I guess I could adjust the Jandy
valves so that, say, half the water is coming from the main drain & spa,
while the other half is coming from the vacuum port (or whatever ratio makes
sense).

I'm kicking myself for not having added a "T" fitting into the filter pump
setup - but I could still add that as I think I only need PVC plumbing and
nothing else.

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 16:11:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:11:42 -0700, Oren wrote:

How exactly is the side wall plugged? Can the cap be screwed off so
it can be adapted for a hose and pool sweeper?

Hi Oren,
It was hard to see in my picture as the camera was above water, but the
side wall unused vacuum port isn't plugged at all. It's got a nice female
thread, about 1.5 inches or maybe 2 inches in diameter (probably whatever
the standard size is).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/


This fitting will fit both female sizes. Is your 50' pool hose 1.5"?
It slips into the fitting after install.

"... found this after the first (softer) plastic went south."

http://www.lesliespool.com/Specials/pool-parts/90001/9000009/62611.html

It's unseen, but, the plumbing, almost certainly, goes from that side wall
female fitting to the unused vertical pipe at the pool equipment. It's really
hard to see in my picture, but, that 3'foot vertical pipe has an inline Jandy
valve, and then the top is simply plugged with a cap:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/

So, all I'd need to do (I think) is cut off the cap, and plumb into the 1.65HP
(net) filterpump.

You can see in that picture above that I already have three Jandy valves on
the filter pump inlet side, so I'm guessing I don't even need to add an additional
Jandy valve to the four that would exist on the inlet side of the filter pump
were I to connect the vacuum to the filter pump (via a "T"?).

If the 1.65 HP motor is too much for a vacuum, I guess I could adjust the Jandy
valves so that, say, half the water is coming from the main drain & spa,
while the other half is coming from the vacuum port (or whatever ratio makes
sense).

I'm kicking myself for not having added a "T" fitting into the filter pump
setup - but I could still add that as I think I only need PVC plumbing and
nothing else.

I have one Jandy valve that controls the skimmer and vacuum sweeper.
Turns either one off, but both lines go through the filter VIA the
pump basket.

Generally the valve is locked in one position... where I set it.

On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:40:21 -0700, Oren wrote:

A friend swears by this product.
http://www.amazon.com/NO-MORE-PROBLEM-1-GALLON/dp/B0079QIAM8/ref=sr_1_4/189-5505171-1557040?ie=UTF8&qid=1373034990&sr=8-4&keywords=no+mor+problems

I couldn't make out the chemical ingredients from the picture
but NMP seems to be a 41.4% (by wt?) Sodium Bromide algaecide.
http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Prod...ST_NR=0453 37

They deprecate the stuff he
http://www.troublefreepool.com/polyq...ide-t9277.html
By saying:
"Sodium bromide added to a chlorine pool will use up some chlorine
as the bromide is converted to bromine. They say this ... when they say
"No Mor Problems affects the test for chlorine initially and causes
a lower reading than is actually occurring." This is most effective as
an algaecide in high CYA pools because bromine does not combine with
CYA so is at "full strength". An initial treatment of 3 fluid ounces
per 5000 gallons, assuming a density of the product close to water,
would be 88.7 ml * 1 g/ml * 0.414 = 36.7 grams in 18,927 liters or
36.7 * 1000 / 18927 = 1.9 mg/L sodium bromide which is 1.5 ppm bromine
(and would consume about 0.8 ppm chlorine). Remember that our shock
levels are roughly equivalent to having 0.6 ppm chlorine (at pH 7.5)
with no CYA. Though it would appear that the bromine is at a much
higher level than chlorine, it is also a weaker oxidizer than chlorine
so the net effect is that this product is basically no better than
maintaining appropriate chlorine levels. If someone has high CYA in
their pool, then as you know, they need to maintain higher FC levels
to prevent algae growth. As an alternative, at extra cost, this product
can be used so then you don't need to maintain a higher FC level."

Most of that description above went over my head, but, it doesn't seem
like they're as big a fan of the stuff as your friend is. I think they
concluded it only works when the chlorine isn't working because of high
conditioner levels. The cheapest solution, one would think, would be to
simply reduce the conditioner levels (by draining a bit & refilling).

Interestingly, I had used (in the past), a copper algaecide, which
had the side effect (other than draining my wallet) of turning my
dark gray pool which has a heavy coating of whitish calcium deposits,
into a a pretty blue green color that other people pay a lot for!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/

So, as with all chemicals, the side effects are something the pool
stores don't tell you about.

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 16:29:11 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Most of that description above went over my head, but, it doesn't seem
like they're as big a fan of the stuff as your friend is. I think they
concluded it only works when the chlorine isn't working because of high
conditioner levels. The cheapest solution, one would think, would be to
simply reduce the conditioner levels (by draining a bit & refilling).

Fungicide , Algaecide:

Your link speaks to "Pest": Slime , Black algae , Algae , Green
algae , Mustard yellow algae

Pool stores will sell a product for each problem, I think, er they do.

I would not use bromine and chorine together for an long period. I was
speaking about what Fred said :-\

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 16:29:11 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Most of that description above went over my head, but, it
doesn't
seem like they're as big a fan of the stuff as your
friend is. I
think they concluded it only works when the chlorine
isn't working
because of high conditioner levels. The cheapest
solution, one would
think, would be to simply reduce the conditioner levels
(by draining
a bit & refilling).

Fungicide , Algaecide:

Your link speaks to "Pest": Slime , Black algae , Algae
, Green
algae , Mustard yellow algae

Pool stores will sell a product for each problem, I think,
er they do.

I would not use bromine and chorine together for an long
period. I was
speaking about what Fred said :-\

They will sell you all kinds of algaecides, but until you
eliminate the phosphates, you'll continue to have algae
problems
I've ben using a phosphate remover for 3-4 yrs now and have
never had a problem with algae since using it
YMMV

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 12:42:52 -0500, "ChairMan"
wrote:

They will sell you all kinds of algaecides, but until you
eliminate the phosphates, you'll continue to have algae
problems
I've ben using a phosphate remover for 3-4 yrs now and have
never had a problem with algae since using it
YMMV


I removed 35 box wood plants from around my pool. Removed five trees.

Less trash for phosphates? Dead baby birds in the skimmer.

Finally, two neighbor trees fell down. Even less leaves in my pool.

On 7/5/2013 8:48 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 05:19:47 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I'd say anything above 5 ppm could cause skin irritation, eyes burning
and maybe hair becoming brittle and washed out. You've heard of bleached
out hair. I don't know how caustic it is to equipment but it could cause
your gaskets and o-rings to wear out quicker. Breaking down the lube on
fittings.

Hmmmm.... I, and others swim with open eyes, and none of that has ever
happened in my pool to my knowledge, to people.

As for the equipment ... who knows ... maybe.

When I had looked it up, I couldn't find any real evidence of problems,
but, again, that was a while ago.


Well...you know what bleach can do right?

At levels that high I get skin irritation and I'm not that sensitive. I
use eye protection but the kids eyes get red. I try to get them to wear
goggles, but you know kids.

3ppm is adequate and anything over that isn't effective anyway. But,
it's America and you can use more if it makes you happy. I'm just glad
you don't backwash into a field like I do.