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#1
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
Domino Effect...
I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option! I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA Suggestions? Thanks, mike |
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#2
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from thebreakerpanel?
mike wrote: Domino Effect... I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option! I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA Suggestions? Thanks, mike Just run a new grounding conductor from the panel out the nearest side wall and to two new 8' ground rods. Forget about the old water supply as the ground, just bond the remaining metallic piping in the house to ground at the panel. |
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#3
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 5/26/2013 9:21 AM, Pete C. wrote:
mike wrote: Domino Effect... I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option! I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA Suggestions? Thanks, mike Just run a new grounding conductor from the panel out the nearest side wall and to two new 8' ground rods. Forget about the old water supply as the ground, just bond the remaining metallic piping in the house to ground at the panel. Thanks for the advice, but that's not what I wanted advice on. I want advice on splicing. |
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#4
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?
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#5
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 26, 12:25*pm, mike wrote:
On 5/26/2013 9:21 AM, Pete C. wrote: mike wrote: Domino Effect... I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. *Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. *With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? *Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away.. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it *5' from where it hits the dirt. *Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. *I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. *Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. *Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. *IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. *I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. *I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. *I dislike that option! I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA Suggestions? Thanks, mike Just run a new grounding conductor from the panel out the nearest side wall and to two new 8' ground rods. Forget about the old water supply as the ground, just bond the remaining metallic piping in the house to ground at the panel. Thanks for the advice, but that's not what I wanted advice on. I want advice on splicing. I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install. The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically... How old is your main service, if its still fuses it might be time to upgrade to a new main breaker box. |
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#6
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?
I need a new water pipe to the street.
They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option! I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA *Two ways to splice a grounding electrode conductor that usually passes inspection: Use a "C" Tap with the proper crimping tool and die or weld the wires together using Cadweld. The crimp must be made with the proper crimping tool. I think some dies will leave a mark for the inspector so that he or she can tell if the proper die was used. The "C" Taps are usually only available at an electrical supply company. Sometimes they rent or will loan a crimper out. The Cadweld is an excellent way to go, but the tools are expensive. Link to "C" Tap: http://www.thomasbetts.com/ps/fullti...cgi?part=54730 Link to die chart: http://tnblnx3.tnb.com/emAlbum/album...lling_dies.pdf Link to Cadweld: http://www.erico.com/products.asp?folderID=41 Since you are going to pull a permit for this you should submit your plan and a description of the materials along with the permit application. On unusual jobs I will write a one page "Scope of Work" describing what I intend to do and mention the materials and hand that in with manufacturers cut sheets and the permit application. This way I will know ahead of time if the inspector will approve the work or not. Someone else mentioned taking pictures of the cut wire and the new pipe and give that to the inspector. That is a good idea. It is better to give as much information as possible up front instead of finding out after the work is completed that the inspector will not approve of it. If the inspector does not agree with your plan, ask him or her for an alternative. |
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#7
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 05/26/13 12:51 pm, bob haller wrote:
I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install. The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically... The "ground connection" to the cold water service is not to *provide* a ground but to ground the pipes so that they do not become live and electrocute the plumber. Perce |
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#8
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?
Mike,
Section 250-81(a) requires another conductor, as well as the water pipe. Since you'll need to install this conductor anyway, why not just pound in the appropriate number of grounding rods and forget about the water pipe? Dave M. |
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#9
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?
Mike, Section 250-81(a) requires another conductor, as well as the water pipe. Since you'll need to install this conductor anyway, why not just pound in the appropriate number of grounding rods and forget about the water pipe? Dave M. *Dave, that section does not exist in the 2011 National Electrical Code. |
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#10
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 05/26/13 12:51 pm, bob haller wrote: I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install. The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically... The "ground connection" to the cold water service is not to *provide* a ground but to ground the pipes so that they do not become live and electrocute the plumber. Let's say that a different way or two: * A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. |
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#11
Posted to alt.home.repair
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 27, 12:16*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote: On 05/26/13 12:51 pm, bob haller wrote: I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install. The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically... The "ground connection" to the cold water service is not to *provide* a ground but to ground the pipes so that they do not become live and electrocute the plumber. Let's say that a different way or two: * A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. after finding ground rods rotted away, the old water line was still servicable. this when I was a dish dealer for awhile and went looking for ground connections |
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#12
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 27, 12:16*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote: On 05/26/13 12:51 pm, bob haller wrote: I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install. The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically... The "ground connection" to the cold water service is not to *provide* a ground but to ground the pipes so that they do not become live and electrocute the plumber. Let's say that a different way or two: * A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply. I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. |
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#13
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 05/27/2013 12:16 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote: On 05/26/13 12:51 pm, bob haller wrote: I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install. The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically... The "ground connection" to the cold water service is not to *provide* a ground but to ground the pipes so that they do not become live and electrocute the plumber. Let's say that a different way or two: * A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. That is true according to current NEC. However a metal water service entrance used to be acceptable as a grounding electrode under previous versions and there are plenty of houses out there with the panel bonded to the water service and no grounding rods. If you mess with any pieces of this system, by the book ground rods ought to be added to be compliant with current codes... nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
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#14
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
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#15
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
pilgrim wrote in :
If I fail to connect my electrical system to a water-pipe-ground, what would be the source of the electrical shock that the plumber might receive? Lots of knuckleheads drape extension cords, or branch circuit cables, over water pipes. Sometimes, insulation wears through... |
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#16
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 27, 6:26*pm, Doug Miller
wrote: " wrote in news:afb2620e-b43c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. *I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. So what, did all those older houses disappear or have other grounding means added by magic? And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Read: NEC 2011 250.52 Grounding Electrodes (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe Under that section it says that an underground water pipe that is 10 ft long is permitted for use as a grounding electrode. It goes on to list the other permitted electrodes as well. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. Even if what you say is true, which per NEC cited about I don't believe is correct, HeyBub would still be wrong because he made no distinction between new services and old ones that rely solely on the water pipe for grounding. They have no other grounding electrode and without the water pipe connection, the system would be ungrounded and a danger. |
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#17
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
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#18
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
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#19
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 27, 8:14*pm, Doug Miller
wrote: " wrote in news:7740703c-994c-402f-93a5- : On May 27, 6:26*pm, Doug Miller wrote: " wrote in news:afb2620e-b4 3c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. *I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. So what, did all those older houses disappear or have other grounding means added by magic? No, all that's necessary is that it meet Code at the time of installation.. *And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes *need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbi ng system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the elec trical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Read: NEC 2011 250.52 Grounding Electrodes (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding (1) *Metal Underground Water Pipe Under that section it says that an underground water pipe that is 10 ft long is permitted for use as a grounding electrode. *It goes on to list the other permitted electrodes as well. Keep reading, and you will discover that the Code does *not* permit that to be the *only* grounding electrode. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the elect ric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. Even if what you say is true, which per NEC cited about I don't believe is correct, Only because you didn't read far enough... :-) HeyBub would still be wrong because he made no distinction between new services and old ones that rely solely on the water pipe for grounding. *They have no other grounding electrode and without the water pipe connection, the system would be ungrounded and a danger. Yes, and that's why, when the service from the municipal water supply is replaced with plastic, the home *must* have an additional grounding electrode added.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Whenever any changes are made, the resulting installation must meet the current new code, even if it originally met the older code. This is true of all locations I have ever heard of. |
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#20
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 27, 8:14*pm, Doug Miller
wrote: .. Yes, and that's why, when the service from the municipal water supply is replaced with plastic, the home *must* have an additional grounding electrode added. Does the NEC state how the ground wire is to be attached to the rod? If the connections are via a standard clamp to the rod I'm having a problem understanding why a cable splice doesn't allow using a split bolt, which is a very tight clamp also. |
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#21
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 27, 9:12*pm, Doug Miller
wrote: " wrote in news:7740703c-994c-402f-93a5- : On May 27, 6:26 pm, Doug Miller wrote: " wrote in news:afb2620e-b4 3c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. So what, did all those older houses disappear or have other grounding means added by magic? No, all that's necessary is that it meet Code at the time of installation.. Yes, which is why what Heybub posted, is incorrect and dangerous: "The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. " On one of those older houses, it IS THE GROUND and removing it would effect the electrical system and it's safety. *And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes *need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbi ng system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the elec trical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Read: NEC 2011 250.52 Grounding Electrodes (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding (1) *Metal Underground Water Pipe Under that section it says that an underground water pipe that is 10 ft long is permitted for use as a grounding electrode. *It goes on to list the other permitted electrodes as well. Keep reading, and you will discover that the Code does *not* permit that to be the *only* grounding electrode. Read what I posted and you'll see that is exactly what I said, which, for convenience, I'll repost: "I would not (be) an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. " So, why did you say I was wrong and Heybub was 100% correct? * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the elect ric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. Even if what you say is true, which per NEC cited about I don't believe is correct, Only because you didn't read far enough... :-) Unbelievable arrogance. HeyBub would still be wrong because he made no distinction between new services and old ones that rely solely on the water pipe for grounding. *They have no other grounding electrode and without the water pipe connection, the system would be ungrounded and a danger. Yes, and that's why, when the service from the municipal water supply is replaced with plastic, the home *must* have an additional grounding electrode added.- Hide quoted text - I never said otherwise. What you said was wrong. You agreed with Heybub that a water pipe cannot be used as part of a grounding system and that it's only tied to ground to prevent a plumber from being shocked. Now, apparently, you agree that per NEC an underground water pipe can indeed can be one of the grounding electrodes, it just can't be the *only* one. Feel free to apologize at any time. |
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#22
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
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#23
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
In article , pilgrim says...
If I fail to connect my electrical system to a water-pipe-ground, what would be the source of the electrical shock that the plumber might receive? Any electrical appliance can have a short from a "hot" wire to its metal case, and in-turn to ground. Like a furnace, washing machine, dryer, refrigerator, garbage disposal, dish washer, electric water heater, etc. Shorts of this nature I have personally seen... -An electrical wire is connected to an appliance through a metal hole with sharp sides and no "wire clamp" is used. The sharp edges of the metal cut into the wire. -An electric range had defective insulation on its internal wiring. High heat caused the insulation to shrink back several inches and thus expose bare electrical wire which then touched the metal frame of the range. -High heat in a bathroom light fixture - just from the light bulbs - caused the old wiring insulation to become brittle, crumble and fall off, then the bare electrical wire touched the metal light fixture frame and its attached metal medicine cabinet. -An electric water heater heating element had an internal short to ground. -A garage door opener had a short to ground which energized the opener and via that the metal garage door. Just one strand of a stranded electrical wire can stick out and touch a metal case. And electric motors are notorious for leaking electricity to ground - they are many times open at the ends for ventilation and crud can get in there which will cause a short to ground. A modern "to code" grounding system will protect you and your family from being electrocuted should any of the above happen. Thus do it right and have the work inspected to be sure it is done right. That is how these electrical codes come to be in the first place... Someone gets electrocuted, then they come up with methods of wiring which will keep that from happening again (if you follow the codes). |
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#24
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from thebreaker panel?
On Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:06:57 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
Domino Effect... I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option! I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA Suggestions? Thanks, mike I'm casting a vote for the run a new copper wire to two grounding rods on the side of the house where the box is. And forget about the water pipes. I think once you mess with it most inspectors will require you to bring it up to current code. Current code calls for 2 grounds. You can pick up a couple ground rods and some solid copper wire for probably less than $100. |
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#25
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 28, 10:50*am, Doug Miller
wrote: *"The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. " On one of those older houses, it IS THE GROUND and removing it would effect the electrical system and it's safety. Which is why it's a Code violation to do that... Which is why I posted to correct what Heybub had said. He posted: "Let's say that a different way or two: * A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. " Good to see you agree that I'm right. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pi pes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plu mbi ng system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the e lec trical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Read: NEC 2011 250.52 Grounding Electrodes (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe Under that section it says that an underground water pipe that is 10 ft long is permitted for use as a grounding electrode. It goes on to list the other permitted electrodes as well. Keep reading, and you will discover that the Code does *not* permit that to be the *only* grounding electrode. Read what I posted and you'll see that is exactly what I said, which, for convenience, I'll repost: "I would not (be) an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. *I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. *And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. " So, why did you say I was wrong and Heybub was 100% correct? I think we've all been misunderstanding each other. No, I haven't misunderstood anything at all. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. Even if what you say is true, which per NEC cited about I don't believe is correct, Only because you didn't read far enough... :-) Unbelievable arrogance. HeyBub would still be wrong because he made no distinction between new services and old ones that rely solely on the water pipe for grounding. They have no other grounding electrode and without the water pipe connection, the system would be ungrounded and a danger. Yes, and that's why, when the service from the municipal water supply is replaced with plastic, the home *must* have an additional grounding electrode added.- H ide quoted text - I never said otherwise. *What you said was wrong. *You agreed with Heybub that a water pipe cannot be used as part of a grounding system That's not what he said. Both of you failed to recognize that: A - In the older homes the water pipe could be the only grounding electrode. B - Even today a water pipe may be used as a grounding electrode as part of a grounding system and that it's only tied to ground to prevent a plumber from being shocked. *Now, apparently, you agree that per NEC an underground water pipe can indeed can be one of the grounding electrodes, it just can't be the *only* one. Feel free to apologize at any time. Wait, you want *me* to apologize because *you* misread HeyBub's post?- Hide quoted text - No, I want you to apologize for claiming that I was wrong, when everything I posted is correct and what you and Heybub posted is what's wrong. Here is what you posted: "Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. " Per the NEC, NEC 2011 250.52 A 1, which you apparently now accept, it clearly lists an underground water pipe as one type of GROUNDING CONDUCTOR which may be used as part of a grounding system. It's listed right there along with ground rods, Ufers, etc. Therefore it's not true that the sole purpose of connecting the water pipe to the grounding system is to ensure that it as at the same potential. That would be BONDING. |
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#26
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?
Hi Mike,
I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Once you replace the steel pipe with plastic, it is no longer an effective grounding conductor. You will need to run a new 4 gauge continuous ground wire from the breaker panel to two 8' copper ground rods spaced at least six feet apart. Forget about the current attic route, just run the ground wire the shortest route from the panel to the rods. Then you need to run an additional ground wire from the breaker panel to any metal piping that remains. This bonds the plumbing to the electrical ground so there is no electrical potential between the pipe and ground. Of course, if you have more than 10' or so of continous buried steel pipe left, it will add to the grounding system also. If you have steel pipe inside your house that is interupted with a section of plastic pipe, you should install a jumper wire across that section to bond all of the steel pipe together. You should also have ground wires bonding your telephone and cable TV lines. It's all to eliminate shocks and make sure everything is at the same potential. Picture the guy with his hand on the breaker panel who accidentally touches the steel water pipe. If they're bonded, no problem. If their isolated, there could be a voltage potential between them which could cause a shock. Good luck, Anthony Watson Mountain Software www.mountain-software.com/anthony.htm |
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#27
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 29, 12:19*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 5/27/2013 4:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote: *wrote in news:afb2620e-b43c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. *I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. But as you agree later, there is not a code problem with houses built with just a water pipe electrode when that was all that was required. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Trader is right. You are wrong. You backpedal in later posts. A metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the earth, MUST be used as part of the earthing electrode system, just as it has been required since time began. A "supplemental" electrode for metal water service pipe has been required for a long time if the metal pipe might be replaced by plastic. With plastic becoming more common, a "supplemental" electrode is now required. But a metal municipal water system is the best earthing electrode that is available at a house. If the water service pipe is plastic, interior metal water pipe systems must be "bonded" to the ground system with rules that are not quite the same as using the water service as an earthing electrode. For a lot of new construction a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) must be created and included as part of the earthing system. This is a good earthing electrode (and is used as the "supplemental" electrode, where required). Ground rods are lousy. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. Which is irrelevant to trader's point. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. HeyBub has it exactly wrong, just as he has at least 2 times previously. ============================ If I understand the OP right, there will no longer be a metal water service pipe 10 ft metal in the ground. So it no longer needs to be connected as an earthing electrode. The interior water pipe system needs to be bonded, but it is by the connection at the water heater. I have not read why the existing ground rods are not adequate, but the distance seems long. As others suggest, I would probably install 2 new rods 8 ft apart with a short run to the service panel. Thank you Bud. I was hoping you would comment. I was getting a little lonely here..... What's amazing is how some are quick to be very assertive and tell you that you are wrong, then when it turns out they are wrong, instead of just saying something like, "yeah, I wasn't thinking right on that one....", instead they try to maintain that they are right. |
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#28
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 5/27/2013 4:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in news:afb2620e-b43c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. But as you agree later, there is not a code problem with houses built with just a water pipe electrode when that was all that was required. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Trader is right. You are wrong. You backpedal in later posts. A metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the earth, MUST be used as part of the earthing electrode system, just as it has been required since time began. A "supplemental" electrode for metal water service pipe has been required for a long time if the metal pipe might be replaced by plastic. With plastic becoming more common, a "supplemental" electrode is now required. But a metal municipal water system is the best earthing electrode that is available at a house. If the water service pipe is plastic, interior metal water pipe systems must be "bonded" to the ground system with rules that are not quite the same as using the water service as an earthing electrode. For a lot of new construction a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) must be created and included as part of the earthing system. This is a good earthing electrode (and is used as the "supplemental" electrode, where required). Ground rods are lousy. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. Which is irrelevant to trader's point. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. HeyBub has it exactly wrong, just as he has at least 2 times previously. ============================ If I understand the OP right, there will no longer be a metal water service pipe 10 ft metal in the ground. So it no longer needs to be connected as an earthing electrode. The interior water pipe system needs to be bonded, but it is by the connection at the water heater. I have not read why the existing ground rods are not adequate, but the distance seems long. As others suggest, I would probably install 2 new rods 8 ft apart with a short run to the service panel. |
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#29
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
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#30
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 29, 2:19*pm, mike wrote:
On 5/29/2013 10:01 AM, wrote: On May 29, 12:19 pm, *wrote: On 5/27/2013 4:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote: * *wrote in news:afb2620e-b43c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. *I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. But as you agree later, there is not a code problem with houses built with just a water pipe electrode when that was all that was required. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Trader is right. You are wrong. You backpedal in later posts. A metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the earth, MUST be used as part of the earthing electrode system, just as it has been required since time began. A "supplemental" electrode for metal water service pipe has been required for a long time if the metal pipe might be replaced by plastic. With plastic becoming more common, a "supplemental" electrode is now required. But a metal municipal water system is the best earthing electrode that is available at a house. If the water service pipe is plastic, interior metal water pipe systems must be "bonded" to the ground system with rules that are not quite the same as using the water service as an earthing electrode. For a lot of new construction a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) must be created and included as part of the earthing system. This is a good earthing electrode (and is used as the "supplemental" electrode, where required). Ground rods are lousy. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. Which is irrelevant to trader's point. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. HeyBub has it exactly wrong, just as he has at least 2 times previously. ============================ If I understand the OP right, there will no longer be a metal water service pipe 10 ft metal in the ground. So it no longer needs to be connected as an earthing electrode. The interior water pipe system needs to be bonded, but it is by the connection at the water heater. I have not read why the existing ground rods are not adequate, but the distance seems long. As others suggest, I would probably install 2 new rods 8 ft apart with a short run to the service panel. Thank you Bud. * I was hoping you would comment. I was getting a little lonely here..... * What's amazing is how some are quick to be very assertive and tell you that you are wrong, then when it turns out they are wrong, instead of just saying something like, "yeah, I wasn't thinking right on that one....", instead they try to maintain that they are right. I got to talk with the inspector yesterday. * His answer was, "yes, I know what the code says, but I also understand common sense." He'll allow a bonding bridge in the attic to attach the wires to the ground rods. Am I the only one here wondering how the wire for the earth ground winds up running up into the attic? Can't you get a direct route to a nearby ground rod? It apparently was connected to the water service pipe, but why does it have to go up to an attic first? |
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#31
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 29, 7:34*pm, "
wrote: On May 29, 2:19*pm, mike wrote: On 5/29/2013 10:01 AM, wrote: On May 29, 12:19 pm, *wrote: On 5/27/2013 4:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote: * *wrote in news:afb2620e-b43c-48a2-8acf- : I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. *I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years. But as you agree later, there is not a code problem with houses built with just a water pipe electrode when that was all that was required.. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. Trader is right. You are wrong. You backpedal in later posts. A metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the earth, MUST be used as part of the earthing electrode system, just as it has been required since time began. A "supplemental" electrode for metal water service pipe has been required for a long time if the metal pipe might be replaced by plastic. With plastic becoming more common, a "supplemental" electrode is now required. But a metal municipal water system is the best earthing electrode that is available at a house. If the water service pipe is plastic, interior metal water pipe systems must be "bonded" to the ground system with rules that are not quite the same as using the water service as an earthing electrode. For a lot of new construction a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) must be created and included as part of the earthing system. This is a good earthing electrode (and is used as the "supplemental" electrode, where required). Ground rods are lousy. * The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electric al system. It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground. That is no longer permitted in new construction. Which is irrelevant to trader's point. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. Per above, I believe that is incorrect. Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right. HeyBub has it exactly wrong, just as he has at least 2 times previously. ============================ If I understand the OP right, there will no longer be a metal water service pipe 10 ft metal in the ground. So it no longer needs to be connected as an earthing electrode. The interior water pipe system needs to be bonded, but it is by the connection at the water heater. I have not read why the existing ground rods are not adequate, but the distance seems long. As others suggest, I would probably install 2 new rods 8 ft apart with a short run to the service panel. Thank you Bud. * I was hoping you would comment. I was getting a little lonely here..... * What's amazing is how some are quick to be very assertive and tell you that you are wrong, then when it turns out they are wrong, instead of just saying something like, "yeah, I wasn't thinking right on that one....", instead they try to maintain that they are right. I got to talk with the inspector yesterday. * His answer was, "yes, I know what the code says, but I also understand common sense." He'll allow a bonding bridge in the attic to attach the wires to the ground rods. Am I the only one here wondering how the wire for the earth ground winds up running up into the attic? * Can't you get a direct route to a nearby ground rod? *It apparently was connected to the water service pipe, but why does it have to go up to an attic first?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Seems to me that the original grounding routing was somewhat strange all right, but maybe done by someone who wasn't too bright or familiar with electricity and surge curents due to lightning and/or faults on the power lines as well as faults within the dwelling itself. |
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#32
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
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#33
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 5/29/2013 9:19 PM, mike wrote:
On 5/29/2013 8:03 PM, wrote: On Wed, 29 May 2013 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: Am I the only one here wondering how the wire for the earth ground winds up running up into the attic? Can't you get a direct route to a nearby ground rod? It apparently was connected to the water service pipe, but why does it have to go up to an attic first? I am not surprised. The water obviously comes in somewhere pretty far from the electrical service. I would punch in a couple of rods next to the service entrance, just for that purpose. (lightning) You also want to bond the phone and cable there if that is where they come in. An important point for surge protection. There's a doorway between the water pipe and the breaker box. All the power goes thru the attic anyway. And there's no easy access from the box to outside. The wire is already in the attic, I'm gonna use it. And the inspector says it's ok to do so. When the GEC went through the attic to the water service pipe, which was an earthing electrode, you could attach the ground rod wire to the GEC in the attic. The attachment could be an 'ordinary' splice, like a split bolt. What you will have isn't very different. The length of the wire to the rods is undesirable, but rods suck to start with. My impression is that inspectors these days are more likely to make reasonable accommodations and less likely to enforce their own electrical code. Nice that you checked and it worked out. And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. I expect you are referring to the service disconnect (and current limiting) is to be "outside ... or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors." I'm just thankful they don't make me rewire the whole house. ;-( |
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#34
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the
service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. You know it might be a good idea to have a couple of licensed electricians stop by separately and give you their opinion about this. |
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#35
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 5/30/2013 11:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. You know it might be a good idea to have a couple of licensed electricians stop by separately and give you their opinion about this. Second opinion is not required. The system sucks. Back in the day, the whole city was done this way. There really is no service disconnect. You have to pull the meter to disconnect the power. I've got five breakers hooked directly to the grid. And a bunch of breakers downstream of one (pair) of them for the circuits/outlets in the house. AFAIK, the first current limit is on the other side of the utility transformer. |
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#36
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 31, 5:33*am, mike wrote:
On 5/30/2013 11:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote: And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. You know it might be a good idea to have a couple of licensed electricians stop by separately and give you their opinion about this. Second opinion is not required. *The system sucks. Back in the day, the whole city was done this way. There really is no service disconnect. *You have to pull the meter to disconnect the power. I've got five breakers hooked directly to the grid. And a bunch of breakers downstream of one (pair) of them for the circuits/outlets in the house. AFAIK, the first current limit is on the other side of the utility transformer. replace the meter can with one that includes a main breaker.... |
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#37
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On May 31, 5:33*am, mike wrote:
On 5/30/2013 11:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote: And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. You know it might be a good idea to have a couple of licensed electricians stop by separately and give you their opinion about this. Second opinion is not required. *The system sucks. Back in the day, the whole city was done this way. There really is no service disconnect. *You have to pull the meter to disconnect the power. I've got five breakers hooked directly to the grid. And a bunch of breakers downstream of one (pair) of them for the circuits/outlets in the house. It's hard to imagine such a thing could have been installed and passed inspection in 72. What kind of breaker panel is this that has no main disconnect breaker? AFAIK, the first current limit is on the other side of the utility transformer. |
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#38
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 5/31/2013 3:33 AM, mike wrote:
On 5/30/2013 11:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote: And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. You know it might be a good idea to have a couple of licensed electricians stop by separately and give you their opinion about this. Second opinion is not required. The system sucks. Back in the day, the whole city was done this way. There really is no service disconnect. You have to pull the meter to disconnect the power. I've got five breakers hooked directly to the grid. And a bunch of breakers downstream of one (pair) of them for the circuits/outlets in the house. That used to be a fairly common scheme called a "split bus" panel. There can be up to 6 service disconnects grouped together. You have 5. A split bus panel had a bus connected to the service wires for the service disconnects and a bus connected to one of the service disconnects. To disconnect the power with a split bus panel you have to switch up to 6 disconnects instead of one. AFAIK, the first current limit is on the other side of the utility transformer. Which as you know doesn't provide much protection for you. But that is the way all services work. What is uncommon with your service is that the service wires go a significant distance inside the house. The code allows them to run outside but wants minimal distance inside. |
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#39
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breakerpanel?
On 5/31/2013 3:33 AM, mike wrote:
On 5/30/2013 11:22 PM, Guv Bob wrote: And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting. You know it might be a good idea to have a couple of licensed electricians stop by separately and give you their opinion about this. Second opinion is not required. The system sucks. Back in the day, the whole city was done this way. There really is no service disconnect. You have to pull the meter to disconnect the power. I've got five breakers hooked directly to the grid. And a bunch of breakers downstream of one (pair) of them for the circuits/outlets in the house. That used to be a fairly common scheme called a "split bus" panel. There can be up to 6 service disconnects grouped together. You have 5. A split bus panel had a bus connected to the service wires for the service disconnects and a bus connected to one of the service disconnects. To disconnect the power with a split bus panel you have to switch up to 6 disconnects instead of one. AFAIK, the first current limit is on the other side of the utility transformer. Which as you know doesn't provide much protection for you. But that is the way all services work. What is uncommon with your service is that the service wires go a significant distance inside the house. The code allows them to run outside but wants minimal distance inside. |
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#40
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How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?
Irreversible butt splice is usually a large copper butt splice that needs a special tool to crimp check local electrical supplier, exothermic weld is is more complicated and costly, it uses gunpowder to weld the copper together, you might need a licence to purchase so I would say that is not an option.
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